While I agree that the new policy is in many ways stupid, pointlessly arbitrary, etcetera - like it or not, Ebay is a commercial concern and has published a new set of rules in a reasonably clear manner.
The OP may disagree with those rules if he likes. He!!, he can jump off the roof if he likes. Doing so (at least as far as the rules go) does not make him "right"- but understanding the new rules (no publishing in the title line a numeric grade for a raw coin), doing so, and having the auction cancelled should come as no surprise to him.
Now creating a thread complaining - not about the new rule with which he happens to disagree - but rather to complain abuot the cancellation of his auction seems disingenuous. I would think that if Frank wanted to create an opportunity to move this into the judicial system, this is just the result he would be looking for.
Therefore, Frank - rejoice! You got EXACTLY the result for which you were looking!
The battles are over and the well connected TPGs have won. Numismatics today is all about plastic. Coins don't matter anymore. Even the almighty ebay says so.
Instead of addressing the real problems, ebay has abdicated their responsibility and given the power of enforcement to the well connected TPGs. And it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints.
This is like a city putting up a new stop sign and somebody running through it, knowing full well it's there...then complaining it violates his freedom of movement.
<< <i>I guess you believe this means that everyone should be able to grade coins per how they interpret ANA standards and so state on their auctions on ebay? Or is it only Frank's Coin's can do this? BTW, I don't think the coin is a counterfeit, but why should I take your word for the grade you ascribe? Is that a guarantee by you personally? >>
I would hope that dealers and collectors always have the right to grade their own coins. I see many messages on discussion boards complaining about dealers "who grade their own coins" as if it's a crime to do so. I hope my customers also know how to grade coins, so that they are confident that the coins they buy from me are graded correctly. Every raw coin I sell can be returned for a full refund with 7 days of receipt.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>The battles are over and the well connected TPGs have won. Numismatics today is all about plastic. Coins don't matter anymore. Even the almighty ebay says so.
Instead of addressing the real problems, ebay has abdicated their responsibility and given the power of enforcement to the well connected TPGs. And it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I disagree. I believe that most of the participants in this thread, rather than being dismissed simply as "Koolaide drinkers", have a valid pont of view: if you know the rules going in, and don't like 'em, don't play. Ebay is not a monopoly, just the venue with the largest number of participants.
If you or Frank (or I, or anyone else) doesn't like it, tough.
<< <i>The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. >>
Many of whom are the SSSer's that eBay has targeted with the new policy.
<< <i>This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered >>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
<< <i>it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I am glad someone sees what is going on...
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered >>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
But those who do choose to sell raw coins are being punished. They pay the same fees as everyone else, but are having their exposure limited by being left out of all title searches with numerical grades in the criteria.
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
Sell somewhere else dude if you have such a problem with eBay. Want some cheese with that whine? Sorry I couldn't resist
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
I thought you could list the grade in the description. How do you define an honest value? How do you write a rule to allow your honest value, while stopping the ridiculous ones?
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
<< <i>But those who do choose to sell raw coins are being punished. They pay the same fees as everyone else, but are having their exposure limited by being left out of all title searches with numerical grades in the criteria. >>
Not really. I frequently sell raw coins and have never listed a numeric grade or value in the title. My auctions have done just fine.
<< <i>Not really. I frequently sell raw coins and have never listed a numeric grade or value in the title. >>
I didn't used to, but I got lots of emails asking me what the numerical grade was (only on US coins, though), so it will be interesting to see if the emails start again.
<< <i>it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I am glad someone sees what is going on... >>
OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive.
This reminds me of tinfoil hat, conspiracy theory nuts. Yes, bad things happen. Yes, companies and governments make stupid, arbitrary rules. And most of us will find a way to work within, or around the most arbitrary and stupidest of them.
And some will tilt at windmills, run into brick walls, kvetch and moan. Oh, and accuse everyone else for their lack of enlightenment and unwillingness to buy into the futility.
Reinhold Neibuhr said it best:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
<< <i>OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive. >>
Wow Blindedbyego, you certainly have read a lot more into my post than I intended. First of all, there are many here much more enlightened than I. I have never considered myself as such. Second, I am not supporting Frankcoins directly with my post. If he knew the ebay policy, in choosing to use the ebay venue he is obligated to follow it. My issue here is with ebay, and the policy. Ebay will certainly curtail some of the dishonest sellers with this policy, however, they have also adversely harmed many honest sellers with their actions. Now other than being offended that I suggested that their are many Kool-aid drinkers on this forum, what else do you disagree with in my post. That ebay has abdicated their responsibility to a few TPGs? That honest sellers of raw coins are being harmed with the policy? That ebay should require more transparency? That all coin sales should have a 7 day return policy? That shipping costs should be standardized? Please let me know because I am somewhat puzzled by your harsh replies each time my words have been posted.
Thinking eBay's policy is bad, somewhat arbitrary and overly heavy-handed -- and believing they have the right to set their own rules -- are two different things.
The bottom line is that this is one more nail in the coffin of collecting slab-free. As mainstream markets dry up for them and rules discourage anything decent from NOT being in plastic more and more, the more the slabbers control the hobby.
It sucks, but I think it's also eBay's right. As for restraint of trade, there might be some merit to that in some cases (especially if you're, say, SEGS or PCI), but I'll let the lawyers hash that one out.
<< <i>Bravo eBay !!! Those rules were sorely needed, and they should be adhered to - regardless of whether this particular coin might be, in the opinion of the original poster, a "true" MS65.
Best, Sunnywood >>
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive. >>
Wow Blindedbyego, you certainly have read a lot more into my post than I intended. First of all, there are many here much more enlightened than I. I have never considered myself as such. Second, I am not supporting Frankcoins directly with my post. If he knew the ebay policy, in choosing to use the ebay venue he is obligated to follow it. My issue here is with ebay, and the policy. Ebay will certainly curtail some of the dishonest sellers with this policy, however, they have also adversely harmed many honest sellers with their actions. Now other than being offended that I suggested that their are many Kool-aid drinkers on this forum, what else do you disagree with in my post. That ebay has abdicated their responsibility to a few TPGs? That honest sellers of raw coins are being harmed with the policy? That ebay should require more transparency? That all coin sales should have a 7 day return policy? That shipping costs should be standardized? Please let me know because I am somewhat puzzled by your harsh replies each time my words have been posted. >>
OK, I'll back off of the harshness a little. I think that the record will show that I like both of you guys, and rarely say anything negative to anyone around here.
Ebay assumed very little responsibility for the content of their auctions from their start. "Just a venue" has been a catch phrase for a long time. They had always taken a fairly laissez-faire position on the content of auctions; only the more egregious examples (human body parts, sex slavery) got banned. With their continued growth, items like firearms and many items of biological residual content got added to that list.
Now we find ourselves again in a period of change - this time focused upon coins. Many decry the crap foisted upon the market by the scammers and hucksters; an equivalent number scream "foul" when more protective measures are enacted.
Every rule change, every bit of legislation by the government or controls set by corporate America has its winners and losers. I've gone through this so far in two entirely different industries (not including on Ebay). No matter - someones ox always seems to get gored along the way.
I happen to like your peoposed solutions, John - but I'll bet a dollar to a donut that many who agree with the new policies would hate them. Not your fault - it's just human nature. My only point is that something had to be done... Something was... And if anyone doesn't like it, either live with it, change it, or move on.
Whining about breaking the easy to understand rules and getting caught is just immature.
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yes it did. There are SOME coins in 3rd tier slabs that are properly graded. If you go through a couple of double row boxes of them at a major show, you will find a couple that meet market leader standards. They must stand on their own merits. Most do not. We always indicate if we disagree with the grade on the plastic.
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yes it did. There are SOME coins in 3rd tier slabs that are properly graded. If you go through a couple of double row boxes of them at a major show, you will find a couple that meet market leader standards. They must stand on their own merits. Most do not. We always indicate if we disagree with the grade on the plastic.
<< <i> With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title. Sean Reynolds >>
Oh my!!! The OP is one of the targets of the new rule. I thought he was just an innocent casualty...good research Sean.
If I were an authorized PCGS dealer, president of this coin thing and that coin thing and I found a gem 66 red in a crap holder, guess what I'd do. I'd do what most of the rest of us here would do get it graded at PCGS. What am I missing here?
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
This is EXACTLY the type of auction eBay was trying to get rid of. Like has been said repeatedly, if you don't like the rules, don't play.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i> Frank, you make zero sense. Your grading expertise is only yours while being obvioulsy subjective the fact that you are a dealer adds a layer of self dealing, afterall you will benefit from overgrading therefore you have zero fiducuary obligation to your buyers, i.e. we just have to trust you, a dealer who will benefit from the transaction. I don't drink from the fountain of Koolaide, but I don't want to believe everything you have to say either. I rather grade the coin myself or get a second or third opinion form a disinterested third party or maybe have a tpg that I trust grade the coin, or all three. I happen to always wonder why a coin that as you say is tunning isn't slabbed by one of Ebay's approved tpgers. If I had my choice about believing the op or a tpg like pcgs (excluding myself and/or an expert if needed) on a grade of a coin you bet I would go with the tpg, who wouldn't. Raw if fine, all ebay is doing is taking the grade out of the title as many have already stated one can put anything they wish in the description. >>
If buyers are educated about grading (And I prefer to sell to buyers who are) then I would go out of business for overgrading, since I have a no questions asked return policy. Some coins do not need to be slabbed, and some collectors don't want them slabbed if they are for an album. There is still a strong market for various quality levels of raw Mint State coins. Ebay's policy tends to cast suspicion on raw coins (if it's not in plastic, there must be something wrong with it) or the concept that an honest seller and an educated buyer can confidently agree on the grade of a coin without relying on a number on a slab.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> So why don't you just list everything like you did in that auction and solve your own problem? >>
It all comes down to whether a raw coin or a slabbed coin should be treated equally on Ebay. The cost to list them is the same. But not permitting the grade in the title drastically reduces its visibility.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title. Sean Reynolds >>
Oh my!!! The OP is one of the targets of the new rule. I thought he was just an innocent casualty...good research Sean. >>
All I did was check his eBay feedback. That example was just the worst one. Even when he sold an approved TPG coin, the retail price quoted was questionable. Here's a 2004-S Golden Dollar PCGS PR69DCAM Retail $70, the PCGS price guide lists it for $40, and it sold for less than $15. Again, Frank, what were you using to come up with the < honest values > and retail prices in your auction titles?
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Hmmmmmm, my twobits says you won't be selling for long on ebay with that attitude. The rules apply to everyone. That means Frank the dealer and Joe the hobbyist. Get with the program or leave. This is ebay's house and it's their rules.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>It all comes down to whether a raw coin or a slabbed coin should be treated equally on Ebay. The cost to list them is the same. But not permitting the grade in the title drastically reduces its visibility. >>
Frank, I will be honest with you... When I look for a coin on ebay and do a search, I never type in a numerical grade. 1946 S Walking Liberty Half Dollar Silver 90% I don't think the numerical grade increases visibility. BU/CH AU MS, UNC, CAMEO.... they are all legal terms. Just drop the numbers in the title, man. It's easiest to swim with the current than against it. But, I'm still against dictatorships. A bearskin rug is illegal on ebay, but abortion pills ain't ... Go figure.
finally a juicy thread. IMO Frank is walking a thin line Why post a ms64 grade in the title of the auction and then say it looks 62 to me in the small print? BS like that coupled with all those lovely membership logos at the bottom of the auction does not sit well to me.
How come pcgs list you as a contact for Causey's rare coins and not as an Authorized Dealer for Frank's Coins or Frank Provasek rare coins? http://home.netcom.com/~ropertex/ I wish Pcgs would update their website.
Comments
does speak volumes.
If you disagree with EBAY's rules, then DON'T USE EBAY.
If the OP knew nothing about EBAY's rules before this MISTAKE, then he now does from this post forward
Bravo EBAY
The OP may disagree with those rules if he likes. He!!, he can jump off the roof if he likes. Doing so (at least as far as the rules go) does not make him "right"- but understanding the new rules (no publishing in the title line a numeric grade for a raw coin), doing so, and having the auction cancelled should come as no surprise to him.
Now creating a thread complaining - not about the new rule with which he happens to disagree - but rather to complain abuot the cancellation of his auction seems disingenuous. I would think that if Frank wanted to create an opportunity to move this into the judicial system, this is just the result he would be looking for.
Therefore, Frank - rejoice! You got EXACTLY the result for which you were looking!
You're just lucky that you got your fees back.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Instead of addressing the real problems, ebay has abdicated their responsibility and given the power of enforcement to the well connected TPGs. And it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints.
<< <i>I guess you believe this means that everyone should be able to grade coins per how they interpret ANA standards and so state on their auctions on ebay? Or is it only Frank's Coin's can do this? BTW, I don't think the coin is a counterfeit, but why should I take your word for the grade you ascribe? Is that a guarantee by you personally? >>
I would hope that dealers and collectors always have the right to grade their own coins. I see many messages on discussion boards complaining about dealers "who grade their own coins" as if it's a crime to do so. I hope my customers also know how to grade coins, so that they are confident that the coins they buy from me are graded correctly. Every raw coin I sell can be returned for a full refund with 7 days of receipt.
<< <i>The battles are over and the well connected TPGs have won. Numismatics today is all about plastic. Coins don't matter anymore. Even the almighty ebay says so.
Instead of addressing the real problems, ebay has abdicated their responsibility and given the power of enforcement to the well connected TPGs. And it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I disagree. I believe that most of the participants in this thread, rather than being dismissed simply as "Koolaide drinkers", have a valid pont of view: if you know the rules going in, and don't like 'em, don't play. Ebay is not a monopoly, just the venue with the largest number of participants.
If you or Frank (or I, or anyone else) doesn't like it, tough.
Deal with it.
It's called "reality".
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Raw coins can't carry a grade. >>
WHAT?
Hey, Everybody knows that "Grading is subjective."
Just lay off the numbers in the Title and run with AU, AU/BU, BU, CHBU, Very CHBU, GEM BU and there's NO problem!
<< <i>The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. >>
Many of whom are the SSSer's that eBay has targeted with the new policy.
<< <i>This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered >>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I am glad someone sees what is going on...
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values.
<< <i>
<< <i>This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered >>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
But those who do choose to sell raw coins are being punished. They pay the same fees as everyone else, but are having their exposure limited by being left out of all title searches with numerical grades in the criteria.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
I thought you could list the grade in the description. How do you define an honest value? How do you write a rule to allow your honest value, while stopping the ridiculous ones?
<< <i>But those who do choose to sell raw coins are being punished. They pay the same fees as everyone else, but are having their exposure limited by being left out of all title searches with numerical grades in the criteria. >>
Not really. I frequently sell raw coins and have never listed a numeric grade or value in the title. My auctions have done just fine.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Not really. I frequently sell raw coins and have never listed a numeric grade or value in the title. >>
I didn't used to, but I got lots of emails asking me what the numerical grade was (only on US coins, though), so it will be interesting to see if the emails start again.
<< <i>
<< <i>it appears that there are enough Kool-aid drinkers on this forum to buy into, and support this policy. The problem with ebay is not the coins, it is the abundance of dishonest sellers. This abdication of responsibility is not punishing the dishonest sellers, it is lining the pockets of the TPGs by punishing the thousands of collector coins that should not need to be holdered. And ebay gets to say they have cleaned up their act when in truth they have done nothing but create a smoke screen to hide behind. Bottom line is that ebay should be reigning in dishonest sellers by requiring transparency in the transactions, not making it so sellers have to give less information. The transparency should begin with requiring 7 day returns for all coins, and then implementing a standard shipping cost policy for all sellers. IMO, the implementation of those two simple requirements would eliminate 90% of all ebay complaints. >>
I am glad someone sees what is going on... >>
OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive.
This reminds me of tinfoil hat, conspiracy theory nuts. Yes, bad things happen. Yes, companies and governments make stupid, arbitrary rules. And most of us will find a way to work within, or around the most arbitrary and stupidest of them.
And some will tilt at windmills, run into brick walls, kvetch and moan. Oh, and accuse everyone else for their lack of enlightenment and unwillingness to buy into the futility.
Reinhold Neibuhr said it best:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Reinhold Neibuhr said it best:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference. >>
And, I always thought Bill said that.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Reinhold Neibuhr said it best:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference. >>
And, I always thought Bill said that.
Russ, NCNE >>
He said don't drink, no matter what.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
It's MS64 and it's a liner. What do I win ?
You can call a spade a spade, but it could still be a hoe
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If it is a scratch I think it would be graded BB.
<< <i>OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive. >>
Wow Blindedbyego, you certainly have read a lot more into my post than I intended. First of all, there are many here much more enlightened than I. I have never considered myself as such. Second, I am not supporting Frankcoins directly with my post. If he knew the ebay policy, in choosing to use the ebay venue he is obligated to follow it. My issue here is with ebay, and the policy. Ebay will certainly curtail some of the dishonest sellers with this policy, however, they have also adversely harmed many honest sellers with their actions. Now other than being offended that I suggested that their are many Kool-aid drinkers on this forum, what else do you disagree with in my post. That ebay has abdicated their responsibility to a few TPGs? That honest sellers of raw coins are being harmed with the policy? That ebay should require more transparency? That all coin sales should have a 7 day return policy? That shipping costs should be standardized? Please let me know because I am somewhat puzzled by your harsh replies each time my words have been posted.
The bottom line is that this is one more nail in the coffin of collecting slab-free. As mainstream markets dry up for them and rules discourage anything decent from NOT being in plastic more and more, the more the slabbers control the hobby.
It sucks, but I think it's also eBay's right. As for restraint of trade, there might be some merit to that in some cases (especially if you're, say, SEGS or PCI), but I'll let the lawyers hash that one out.
<< <i>Bravo eBay !!! Those rules were sorely needed, and they should be adhered to - regardless of whether this particular coin might be, in the opinion of the original poster, a "true" MS65.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
<< <i>
<devil's advocate mode>
"Semi Retired accumulator & seller of PCGS graded coins."
It's easy to agree with something which gives one an advantage over others.
</devil's advocate mode>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>OMG! You think that you two are the only "enlighted" people here? Like it's some sort of club? How naive. >>
Wow Blindedbyego, you certainly have read a lot more into my post than I intended. First of all, there are many here much more enlightened than I. I have never considered myself as such. Second, I am not supporting Frankcoins directly with my post. If he knew the ebay policy, in choosing to use the ebay venue he is obligated to follow it. My issue here is with ebay, and the policy. Ebay will certainly curtail some of the dishonest sellers with this policy, however, they have also adversely harmed many honest sellers with their actions. Now other than being offended that I suggested that their are many Kool-aid drinkers on this forum, what else do you disagree with in my post. That ebay has abdicated their responsibility to a few TPGs? That honest sellers of raw coins are being harmed with the policy? That ebay should require more transparency? That all coin sales should have a 7 day return policy? That shipping costs should be standardized? Please let me know because I am somewhat puzzled by your harsh replies each time my words have been posted. >>
OK, I'll back off of the harshness a little. I think that the record will show that I like both of you guys, and rarely say anything negative to anyone around here.
Ebay assumed very little responsibility for the content of their auctions from their start. "Just a venue" has been a catch phrase for a long time. They had always taken a fairly laissez-faire position on the content of auctions; only the more egregious examples (human body parts, sex slavery) got banned. With their continued growth, items like firearms and many items of biological residual content got added to that list.
Now we find ourselves again in a period of change - this time focused upon coins. Many decry the crap foisted upon the market by the scammers and hucksters; an equivalent number scream "foul" when more protective measures are enacted.
Every rule change, every bit of legislation by the government or controls set by corporate America has its winners and losers. I've gone through this so far in two entirely different industries (not including on Ebay). No matter - someones ox always seems to get gored along the way.
I happen to like your peoposed solutions, John - but I'll bet a dollar to a donut that many who agree with the new policies would hate them. Not your fault - it's just human nature. My only point is that something had to be done... Something was... And if anyone doesn't like it, either live with it, change it, or move on.
Whining about breaking the easy to understand rules and getting caught is just immature.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yes it did. There are SOME coins in 3rd tier slabs that are properly graded. If you go through a couple of double row boxes of them at a major show, you will find a couple that meet market leader standards. They must stand on their own merits. Most do not. We always indicate if we disagree with the grade on the plastic.
Link
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Everybody is still perfectly free to sell raw coins. They simply cannot hype them in the title with numeric grades and, (sometimes ridiculous), value claims.
Russ, NCNE >>
Nor can they list the official ANA grades (which are NUMBERS for MS coins) and honest values. >>
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yes it did. There are SOME coins in 3rd tier slabs that are properly graded. If you go through a couple of double row boxes of them at a major show, you will find a couple that meet market leader standards. They must stand on their own merits. Most do not. We always indicate if we disagree with the grade on the plastic.
Link >>
So why don't you just list everything like you did in that auction and solve your own problem?
<< <i> With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title. Sean Reynolds >>
Oh my!!!
With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title.
Sean Reynolds >>
This is EXACTLY the type of auction eBay was trying to get rid of. Like has been said repeatedly, if you don't like the rules, don't play.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i> Frank, you make zero sense. Your grading expertise is only yours while being obvioulsy subjective the fact that you are a dealer adds a layer of self dealing, afterall you will benefit from overgrading therefore you have zero fiducuary obligation to your buyers, i.e. we just have to trust you, a dealer who will benefit from the transaction. I don't drink from the fountain of Koolaide, but I don't want to believe everything you have to say either. I rather grade the coin myself or get a second or third opinion form a disinterested third party or maybe have a tpg that I trust grade the coin, or all three. I happen to always wonder why a coin that as you say is tunning isn't slabbed by one of Ebay's approved tpgers. If I had my choice about believing the op or a tpg like pcgs (excluding myself and/or an expert if needed) on a grade of a coin you bet I would go with the tpg, who wouldn't. Raw if fine, all ebay is doing is taking the grade out of the title as many have already stated one can put anything they wish in the description. >>
If buyers are educated about grading (And I prefer to sell to buyers who are) then I would go out of business for overgrading, since I have a no questions asked return policy. Some coins do not need to be slabbed, and some collectors don't want them slabbed if they are for an album. There is still a strong market for various quality levels of raw Mint State coins. Ebay's policy tends to cast suspicion on raw coins (if it's not in plastic, there must be something wrong with it) or the concept that an honest seller and an educated buyer can confidently agree on the grade of a coin without relying on a number on a slab.
Did I say that out loud?
I mean all hale Stupidity!
<< <i>
So why don't you just list everything like you did in that auction and solve your own problem? >>
It all comes down to whether a raw coin or a slabbed coin should be treated equally on Ebay. The cost to list them
is the same. But not permitting the grade in the title drastically reduces its visibility.
<< <i>
<< <i> With auctions like this one, for a 1930-S Lincoln Cent NTC Slab MS66RD Trends $500 under your belt, I can see why these changes would get you upset. Go ahead and tell me you thought that coin met the ANA standards for a 66RD. Either way, you're still welcome to list all that information in the body of the auction, just not the title. Sean Reynolds >>
Oh my!!!
All I did was check his eBay feedback. That example was just the worst one. Even when he sold an approved TPG coin, the retail price quoted was questionable. Here's a 2004-S Golden Dollar PCGS PR69DCAM Retail $70, the PCGS price guide lists it for $40, and it sold for less than $15. Again, Frank, what were you using to come up with the < honest values > and retail prices in your auction titles?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Link
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
everyone. That means Frank the dealer and Joe the hobbyist. Get with the program or leave. This is
ebay's house and it's their rules.
bob
<< <i>And this one with a price estimate of $1200
Link >>
Wow...
Looks like the OP should have tried to remain under the radar because
it now looks like he is wide open for shot after shot.
Hey EBAY....thanks again for taking the first step you have
Good stuff.
<< <i>It all comes down to whether a raw coin or a slabbed coin should be treated equally on Ebay. The cost to list them is the same. But not permitting the grade in the title drastically reduces its visibility. >>
Frank, I will be honest with you...
When I look for a coin on ebay and do a search, I never type in a numerical grade.
1946 S Walking Liberty Half Dollar Silver 90%
I don't think the numerical grade increases visibility. BU/CH AU MS, UNC, CAMEO.... they are all legal terms.
Just drop the numbers in the title, man. It's easiest to swim with the current than against it.
But, I'm still against dictatorships.
A bearskin rug is illegal on ebay, but abortion pills ain't ... Go figure.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
IMO Frank is walking a thin line
Why post a ms64 grade in the title of the auction and then say it looks 62 to me in the small print? BS like that coupled with all those lovely membership logos at the bottom of the auction does not sit well to me.
into paying more then they would if they did proper research.
i emailed simplycoins today saying he should be ashamed calling
a certain half eagle a MS66 in a NNC slab.
the person emails back "show me better!".
it is like they truly believe their own poo does not smell.
mind boggling.
I wish Pcgs would update their website.