Ebay accused me of selling counterfeit for calling raw coin MS65

Frankcoins

I am going to let the ANA board hear about this...One of my auctions was ended with an email from ebay accusing me of violating their counterfeit policy AND the guildelines of the ANA for calling THIS coin MS65. (It was clearly listed as NOT certified)
(I bought it at the TNA show in May for $90 and it's a stunner in hand)




Here is the email from ebay...

eBay sent this message to Frank Provasek (frankcoins).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay.
Learn more: http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
eBay Listing Removed: Counterfeit Currency and Stamps (=PS &12363 JM149964763)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear frankcoins,

You recently listed the following auction-style listing:

200160388318 - 1946-S Walking Half MS65 No Reserve


The auction-style listing was removed because it violated the eBay Counterfeit Currency and Stamps policy, and guidelines established by

the American Numismatic Association. All fees related to this listing have been credited to your account. We also notified members who

placed bids on the item that the listing has been canceled due to violation of this policy.

Sellers are not permitted to sell coins, paper money or stamps that are fraudulent or improperly described. In addition, most countries

around the world, including the U.S., strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps, as well as the equipment designed to

make these items. For this reason, listings for these items are not permitted on eBay.

Sellers may only list a coin as ?certified,? if it has been certified by one of the following authorized grading companies:

- Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC)
- Numismatic Conservation Services (NCS)
- Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)
- Independent Coin Grading (ICG)
- ANACS

***Note***
If the coin has not been certified by one of the authorized grading companies, the coin may only be listed as raw or certified. Raw or

uncertified coins are permitted for sale on eBay, as long as:

- A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the

description of the listing.
- The grading company or price guide is not referenced in the title or description.
- A dollar value (even if personal opinion) is not included in the title or description.

For more information on the eBay Selling Coins policy, please visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html



Please note: violation of this or other eBay policies may result in forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings, limits on account

privileges and account suspension.


To review eBay's list of Prohibited, Questionable, and Infringing items, please visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/item_allowed.html

For more information on why eBay may remove a auction-style listing, please visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/listing-ended.html

Thank you for your understanding.


Sincerely,

eBay Trust & Safety

ChrisRx

Looks good to me

Edited to add: You can not state the grade if raw.

Pentimento

uncertified coins are permitted for sale on eBay, as long as:

- A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the description of the listing.

airplanenut

<< <i>You can not state the grade if raw. >>

Yup... no numerical grades in the title.

TwoSides2aCoin

Frank you are a bad boy !!!
edit to add:

Whatever you do, don't sell spades... What would they think if you called a spade a spade ?
Remember, they are widgets and ebay wants you to treat them as such !

Example

08HALA20

That is ebay's new policy.
You can't use a grade reference in the Title unless it is certified by one of the approved companies.

Rookie Joe

FLBuffaloHunter

<< <i>uncertified coins are permitted for sale on eBay, as long as:

- A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the description of the listing. >>


Bingo!

Russ

They didn't accuse you of selling counterfeit coins. That eMail is a standard boiler plate that they send out when they end an auction.

Russ, NCNE

ricko

Looks like you crossed then line... however unintentional it may have been - or how accurate the description (beautiful Walker by the way). Cheers, RickO

MisterBungle

Where you been man??

We've pretty much talked eBay's new policy to death!!

How did you miss that??



~

Zoins

It is somewhat disconcerting that they are applying this policy to auctions like this when PR/MS70 SGS auctions still have SGS and grade in the title.

Russ

<< <i>Where you been man??

We've pretty much talked eBay's new policy to death!!

How did you miss that?? >>



He knows about it. He's been complaining over on the eBay coin board.

Russ, NCNE

291fifth

"...and guidelines established by the American Numismatic Association."

I find this to be the most interesting line in the memo you received. The ANA established the numerical grading standards that we use today (highly influenced by Sheldon's Large cent grading scale.) The numerical grades were established by the ANA well before the "slab" era began and were intended for use on raw coins. I have a copy of the 1977 first edition of "The Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins," and it uses the numerical grades.

Just what has been the involvement of the ANA in this new eBay policy? Wouldn't you like to know? I sure would.
Has the ANA now declared that only selected slabbed coins use the numerical designations. If this is the case, then should this same policy be enforced at all ANA sponsored coin shows?

Russ

<< <i>It is somewhat disconcerting that they are applying this policy to auctions like this when PR/MS70 SGS auctions still have SGS and grade in the title. >>



eBay pretty much only reacts when an auction is reported.

Russ, NCNE

Frankcoins

<< <i>Where you been man??

We've pretty much talked eBay's new policy to death!!

How did you miss that??



~ >>



I DID NOT miss it. I listed the coin as uncertified, but graded according to the 6th edition ANA grading guide. The only official grades for Mint State coins are NUMBERS. Now that they cancelled a properly described item (even referencing the ANA) I now have what is known as "standing"

Zoins

<< <i>Just what has been the involvement of the ANA in this new eBay policy? Wouldn't you like to know? I sure would. >>

The ANA has disclaimed involvement for the new eBay rules. The ANA may be involved behind the scenes but they've said publicly that they are uninvolved. eBay, for their part, says they are using their interpretations of the ANA guidelines.

Frankcoins

<< <i>They didn't accuse you of selling counterfeit coins. >>



What does "Subject: eBay Listing Removed: Counterfeit Currency and Stamps" sound like???

Russ

<< <i>but graded according to the 6th edition ANA grading guide. >>



Which you are perfectly free to do in the description, not the title. Stop with the innocent act already. You were well aware of the new listing guidelines.

Russ, NCNE

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>They didn't accuse you of selling counterfeit coins. >>

What does "Subject: eBay Listing Removed: Counterfeit Currency and Stamps" sound like??? >>

It sounds like they sent you the wrong subject line because your WLH isn't currency or stamps!

Russ

<< <i><< They didn't accuse you of selling counterfeit coins. >>

What does "Subject: eBay Listing Removed: Counterfeit Currency and Stamps" sound like??? >>



It sounds like a copy/paste eMail that the eBay drones send out when they shut down an auction. But, you already knew that and are trying to play the martyr.

Russ, NCNE

Frankcoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Just what has been the involvement of the ANA in this new eBay policy? Wouldn't you like to know? I sure would. >>

The ANA has disclaimed involvement for the new eBay rules. The ANA may be involved behind the scenes but they've said publicly that they are uninvolved. eBay, for their part, says they are using their interpretations of the ANA guidelines. >>



We have an audio recording from a Silver Powerseller where the eBay rep told him that the ANA was a "government agency" and violation of the "new ANA guidelines" would be referred to law enforcement.

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Just what has been the involvement of the ANA in this new eBay policy? Wouldn't you like to know? I sure would. >>

The ANA has disclaimed involvement for the new eBay rules. The ANA may be involved behind the scenes but they've said publicly that they are uninvolved. eBay, for their part, says they are using their interpretations of the ANA guidelines. >>

We have an audio recording from a Silver Powerseller where the eBay rep told him that the ANA was a "government agency" and violation of the "new ANA guidelines" would be referred to law enforcement. >>

The ANA has a Federal Charter but that's stretching a bit. Entertaining though.

Frankcoins

<< <i> But, you already knew that and are trying to play the martyr.

Russ, NCNE >>



I am not playing a martyr. I am letting them hang themselves.

291fifth

Has anything about this issue appeared in the numismatic press? It should be good for several pages of letters to the editor.

Frankcoins

<< <i>Has anything about this issue appeared in the numismatic press? It should be good for several pages of letters to the editor. >>



My letter is in the October 8 Coin World

Zoins

From the eBay email:

<< <i>You recently listed the following auction-style listing:

200160388318 - 1946-S Walking Half MS65 No Reserve [...]

Sellers are not permitted to sell coins, paper money or stamps that are fraudulent or improperly described. [...]

Raw or uncertified coins are permitted for sale on eBay, as long as:

- A numeric grade is not included in the title of the listing, such as MS-65, VF-25, etc. A numeric grade may only be included in the description of the listing. >>

It seems that the auction could be covered by the policy if it is "improperly described" even if it isn't counterfeit.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

seemyauction

Frankcoins,

I have been speaking out about this "New Regulation" since I first heard about it.

While I agree that something needs to be done about the issue, I don't feel ebay is doing the right thing with this new reg. It's censorship, violates my freedom of speech, and I don't even list grades in my titles or descriptions.

The way the reg reads we only value the opinions of the pre-approved....no one else has a say.

But hey I'm just one guy with one opinion that means nothing in the world of numismatics......welcome to the outcast island, population 2


Al

Frankcoins

<< <i>This thread appears to be a total waste of everbody's time, Ebay's policy that everyone should know by now and be satisfied with although not perfect ( but what is perfect these days) is that you can't mention grade in the title if it isn't in one of their preferred tpg slab list, the op mentioned MS65 and it wasn't in the ok slab list of named tpg's. So what is the issue here, the dealer who of all the many ebay sellers should have known the rules broke the rule, period, end of story and any further discussion is moot. That includes any e-mails he may have received or phone messages, seller screwed up, next discussion. >>



Some people just like to obey "authority" even if it's unreasonable, illogical and not beneficial. Even more important than reasoning and conscience is the need to submit and obey. Google Milgram experiment

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>I don't feel ebay is doing the right thing with this new reg. It's censorship, violates my freedom of speech, and I don't even list grades in my titles or descriptions. >>

I think eBay's policy is silly, but that being said, they are free to institute silly policies- it's their company. As far as censorship or freedom of speech goes, they have no obligation to provide anyone with a platform to speak if such speech is against their policies and can disallow all kinds of things without violating your rights.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

ModernCrapNut

It's ebay's ball game and they are trying to institute ways to weed out some of the scum. If you don't like their new rules, instead of trying to sneak around them hoping the listing rules violation will go un-noticed, simply don't sell on ebay.

291fifth

<< <i>This thread appears to be a total waste of everbody's time, Ebay's policy that everyone should know by now and be satisfied with although not perfect ( but what is perfect these days) is that you can't mention grade in the title if it isn't in one of their preferred tpg slab list, the op mentioned MS65 and it wasn't in the ok slab list of named tpg's. So what is the issue here, the dealer who of all the many ebay sellers should have known the rules broke the rule, period, end of story and any further discussion is moot. That includes any e-mails he may have received or phone messages, seller screwed up, next discussion. >>



I'm not satisfied with the eBay policy at all. It is poorly thought out and makes no sense.

walkerman

<< <i>

<< <i>This thread appears to be a total waste of everbody's time, Ebay's policy that everyone should know by now and be satisfied with although not perfect ( but what is perfect these days) is that you can't mention grade in the title if it isn't in one of their preferred tpg slab list, the op mentioned MS65 and it wasn't in the ok slab list of named tpg's. So what is the issue here, the dealer who of all the many ebay sellers should have known the rules broke the rule, period, end of story and any further discussion is moot. That includes any e-mails he may have received or phone messages, seller screwed up, next discussion. >>



Let me guess...you still support George Bush? >>




I can't think of anything that has less relevence to the subject at hand than someone's political choices.
I think it sucks that centless and others of his stripe can list pictures of their coins that clearly show the MS numbered grade even though he doesn't state the numbered grade in his titles.
This is however something we all knew or should have known would happen.
All you have to do, Frank, is follow the rules like centsles has done and list your coin as gem with ms 65 mentioned in the description.
We all wished ebay would take steps to hamper the sales of crap slabs.
It looks like the legitimate sellers have been hurt far more than the scammers.
Be careful what you wish for.
The problems with crap slabs on ebay will not be solved until they are banned period!
I don't expect this to happen. Dave W




David J Weygant Rare Coins website: www.djwcoin.com

TwoSides2aCoin

Who's new logo ?

dbldie55

Let's see if I have this. Ebay publishes a set of rules, a seller breaks the rule and Ebay removes the listing which what they said they would do for offenders.

What exactly is the issue again?

I do love when someone brings up "Freedom of Speech". Truly sad that so many have no clue what that means.

Frankcoins

<< <i>. One thing that pisses me off more than anything is when an ebay seller says but he thinks the grade of the coin is, I have no problem with an ebay seller reciting the grade on the label. But the op didn't adhere to the guidelines period, the law is the law (ebay's law that is) so what makes him think he can out smart them or go outside of it is beyond me. I have nothing against the op, I just think in this particular case he is absolutely wrong thats all, he still is a good guy just musguided in this one incident. >>




So I guess that's what it has come down to --- the grade on the label.

I guess instead of selling quality raw coins which ebay will not let me properly describe, I should start hunting for ugly overgraded bottom-of-the barrel "approved slabs" which are available for half greysheet, which I can then promote at the "grade on the label" and reference the appropriate inflated price guide.

dbldie55

How did Ebay stop you from describing the coin?

Sunnywood

Bravo eBay !!! Those rules were sorely needed, and they should be adhered to - regardless of whether this particular coin might be, in the opinion of the original poster, a "true" MS65.

Best,
Sunnywood

Manorcourtman

<< <i>

<< <i>but graded according to the 6th edition ANA grading guide. >>



Which you are perfectly free to do in the description, not the title. Stop with the innocent act already. You were well aware of the new listing guidelines.

Russ, NCNE >>




What he said. Your grade may be close but take it or leave it....eBay policy has changed.

jmski52

China. Does ebay protect anyone from Chinese counterfeits? Let's get real - ebay needs an effective competitor.

And the U.S. needs to reign in China or stop importing anything from there. I just had my first painful experience with "customer service" from Linksys with a chinese technical rep. It's happening everywhere. We are digging our own hole.

I don't know the answer.

TwoSides2aCoin

Send it to me, Frank... I'll get 'er slabbed for ya . I have 8 freebies. Do you think it's a 65 ?

Let's discuss the coin.

zzzz

Way To go F.R.A.N.K.
You went from complaining about Ebay's new policy, Which you knew about to some how blaming George Bush?



Now that your standing you can sit now.



As far as wanting to use the ANA standards to put MS65 in the title, as a raw coin, how does anyone know you interpeted the grade correctly by not seeing things on the coin thereby hyping an AU coin to MS65 ... Are we just supposed to believe you? how do we know you didn't crack this coin out of a PCGS MS63 holder but because of "YOUR" interpitation of the ANA's grading standard it looked like an MS65 coin so you are hyping it at such?




Bottom line you want to use MS/PR anything in the TITLE LINE get it graded by one of the approved grading companies the list it as such.




As far as free speech goes ...
Ebay's new policy does not hinder that as you can say pretty much anything in the description.



Too bad F.R.A.N.K. I guess you just want to be one of those slime ball, coin hyping, I'm the best coin grader, Never wrong raw sellers.


This of course is my personal opinion and in no way relects the position of the parent company. This is fictional and any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincedential.
Foolish Rank Amiture Nutty Koinguy

Frankcoins

<< <i>Let's see if I have this. Ebay publishes a set of rules, a seller breaks the rule and Ebay removes the listing which what they said they would do for offenders.

What exactly is the issue again?

I do love when someone brings up "Freedom of Speech". Truly sad that so many have no clue what that means. >>



Certainly not I. It's restraint of trade. Ebay likes to bring up "interstate commerce" and "wire fraud" issues all the time. They can get some of those issues back at them.

For a couple of years ebay has been recommending that sellers follow the good practices of the ANA (even implying that the ANA has some jurisdicition over non ANA members, which they do not) What is more important that properly grading a coin according to ANA standards? And if you look at the latest edition of the ANA standards (6th edition) you will see that there are NO adjective descriptions for Mint State coins.

The official ANA grades are NUMBERS, which ebay is restricting the use of.

notwilight

What Russ said.

edit: and what Summywood said.

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>This thread appears to be a total waste of everbody's time, Ebay's policy that everyone should know by now and be satisfied with although not perfect ( but what is perfect these days) is that you can't mention grade in the title if it isn't in one of their preferred tpg slab list, the op mentioned MS65 and it wasn't in the ok slab list of named tpg's. So what is the issue here, the dealer who of all the many ebay sellers should have known the rules broke the rule, period, end of story and any further discussion is moot. That includes any e-mails he may have received or phone messages, seller screwed up, next discussion. >>



Some people just like to obey "authority" even if it's unreasonable, illogical and not beneficial. Even more important than reasoning and conscience is the need to submit and obey. Google Milgram experiment >>

I guess you believe this means that everyone should be able to grade coins per how they interpret ANA standards and so state on their auctions on ebay? Or is it only Frank's Coin's can do this? BTW, I don't think the coin is a counterfeit, but why should I take your word for the grade you ascribe? Is that a guarantee by you personally?

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>What Russ said. >>



I wouldn't go that far...
ya can't always be right about POWERSCREWERS. I think he's got aSTIGMAtism and it's COINTAGIOUS.

sonofagunk

Can I call a coin
MS-LXV
????

ModernDollarNut

I am grateful that the bay is doing SOMETHING about rip-off artists pumping over-graded 3rd tier slabs and about sellers that put way-high grades in their raw-coin titles.

Sure, those of us who do our best to grade raw coins accurately are getting stepped on, but it's a bargain I'm happy to take (and you bet I can grade my speciality, Ikes).

Ebay is bound to lose some business by tightening their rules so any of us who can see the greater good through the fogs of self-interest should consider supporting ebay's move rather than carping.

Do ebay and paypal need competition? Darn right! But until it materializes I'm stuck with ebay and applaud any effort they make to improve.

JMHO. Rob

Frankcoins

<< <i>Way To go F.R.A.N.K.
You went from complaining about Ebay's new policy, Which you knew about to some how blaming George Bush? >>



I said nothing about blaming Bush. In fact I edited it out, but someone had already quoted the post. But it's well know that the typical Bush supporter
is a "passive follower" who likes to submit to authority, even if it violates his conscience. And they often boost their own feelings of low self esteem and inferiority by resorting to unfair accusations...




<< <i>how does anyone know you interpeted the grade correctly by not seeing things on the coin thereby hyping an AU coin to MS65 ... Are we just supposed to believe you? how do we know you didn't crack this coin out of a PCGS MS63 holder but because of "YOUR" interpitation of the ANA's grading standard it looked like an MS65 coin so you are hyping it at such? >>




...and prefer simple solutions, the simplest being "obey"...



<< <i>Bottom line you want to use MS/PR anything in the TITLE LINE get it graded by one of the approved grading companies the list it as such. >>




...and to deny legitimate concerns by pretending they do not exist...



<< <i> Ebay's new policy does not hinder that as you can say pretty much anything in the description. >>




and frequently use ridicule and personal attacks against those with opposing views...



<< <i>Too bad F.R.A.N.K. I guess you just want to be one of those slime ball, coin hyping, I'm the best coin grader, Never wrong raw sellers. >>

tgilliams

Looks correct to me. Raw coins can't carry a grade.