I cant believe when I read these boards of individuals quoting sales reports like scripture.....
Those reports are as bad as the government reports on inflation.
I like the 1 oz Gold Buff, the 1/4 oz Gold Buff, all the Unc W plats (these will be the lowest #'s of the lot, and will be lower than 06...), not yet ready to dive in with the proof plats (just because I dont buy many of those anyway)
Thanks for making this an interesting thread. It has been a wild ride over the last month since the US Mint announced that they were discontinuing a number of series and coins.
I think a number of forum members have quite a herd of buffaloes and flocks of eagles. No matter what the final mintages turn out to be, to paraphrase Ericj96, 2008 looks to be a year of winners (buffaloes, eagles, etc).
7over8 it has been 7 weeks to the day the 1/4 sold out I am pretty sure. Now if we can't believe the sales reports today then i can't see how we can believe them 7 weeks ago. I don't think we can pick and choose on the numbers.
The buffalo numbers seem fine to me,the plat unc may have been struck to more than most thought. If they took that many orders then nobody knows where the in stock amount was. Without knowing that it is only a 100% guess on the mintages at this point.
NY council do you consider the 2006W to 2008 W unc gold fractionals an ended series or part of the bullion series like the 1999W gold error coins?
Without overthinking it, I would probably consider them part of the bullion series, although I think a case could be made for them to be treated as their own subset. I don't collect uncirculated gold w fractionals, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take away the packaging, they're basically mintmarked uncirculated gold bullion coins. I also am not sure how best to catgorize the 1999 w gold error coins; the nature of the error makes categorization difficult -- my opinion is that they probably belong to proofs.
Do you consider the 2008 W buffalo unc part of the buffalo bullion ounce coin series or an ended one year issue that will never be compared?
I consider the fractionals to be a different animal from the one ounce coin series.
How will the plat UNC w get listed in redbook, alone or lumped with the bullion coins?
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
How are the plat unc w listed in the registry set, separate or with other bullion strikes?
I don't know, but I definitely think they are a distinct set. A 3 coin uncirculated platinum set distinguished by a distinctive design with a coherent 3 coin theme.
The different reverse makes them different coins. If they just had a "w" mintmark, I'd see them as part of the bullion series starting in 1997. Similarly, the 50 state quarters are distinguishable from the Washington quarters from 1932-1998, but meld better since the Mint did not issue both types concurrently. The 1976 bicentennials are also their own design, but take the place of what would otherwise be a regular reverse for 1976. That's the way I see things; how various publishers, PCGS or other collectors might see things is up to them.
Have you ever had an explanation for the ~1500 orders being taken of 1/4 unc plats AFTER backorder date of 10/21 and no large orders being filled?
Do you have an explanation for 500 1/10 oz coin orders being taken after SELLOUT and none of those orders being filled?
Yes, it's been 7 weeks. Numbers have only moved by returns, and only have been revised DOWNWARDS.
Cancellations last week of forum members amounted to 311 1/4 oz coins and that was only a few orders!!! But the sales report comes out today and shows a net decrease of 145 coins. How do you explain that?
The USM Office of Public affairs sayd cancellations have NOT been deducted from sales numbers THIS WEEK. Are we to expect numbers to drop next week?
I think there are alot of unanswered questions. Lots of reports of not receiving coins. Lots of reports of order cancellations.
No ask me once more - should i trust the sales report? Wake up and smell the coffee.
<< <i>NY council do you consider the 2006W to 2008 W unc gold fractionals an ended series or part of the bullion series like the 1999W gold error coins?
Without overthinking it, I would probably consider them part of the bullion series, although I think a case could be made for them to be treated as their own subset. I don't collect uncirculated gold w fractionals, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take away the packaging, they're basically mintmarked uncirculated gold bullion coins. I also am not sure how best to catgorize the 1999 w gold error coins; the nature of the error makes categorization difficult -- my opinion is that they probably belong to proofs.
Do you consider the 2008 W buffalo unc part of the buffalo bullion ounce coin series or an ended one year issue that will never be compared?
I consider the fractionals to be a different animal from the one ounce coin series.
How will the plat UNC w get listed in redbook, alone or lumped with the bullion coins?
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
How are the plat unc w listed in the registry set, separate or with other bullion strikes?
I don't know, but I definitely think they are a distinct set. A 3 coin uncirculated platinum set distinguished by a distinctive design with a coherent 3 coin theme.
The different reverse makes them different coins. If they just had a "w" mintmark, I'd see them as part of the bullion series starting in 1997. Similarly, the 50 state quarters are distinguishable from the Washington quarters from 1932-1998, but meld better since the Mint did not issue both types concurrently. The 1976 bicentennials are also their own design, but take the place of what would otherwise be a regular reverse for 1976. That's the way I see things; how various publishers, PCGS or other collectors might see things is up to them. >>
I think how the coins are listed is how they are perceived. What you seem to be confused about with my position is I am not saying how I want the unc plats to be viewed, I am talking about what I think 99%+ of outside collectors that only look in redbook or see them listed on Ebay and or websites think. That is how I think they will be traded in the long run. Eventually I think they will be collected by the series collectors which is good. But the series continues in my opinion, and you answered the questions like I thought.
Have you ever had an explanation for the ~1500 orders being taken of 1/4 unc plats AFTER backorder date of 10/21 and no large orders being filled?
>>
I'm sorry but there is no explanation because that is not what happened. As I posted the 1/4 were backordered after 615 sales, not at 615.
You seem to think the 1/4 were backorder at 615 and everything else was a backorder.
That is not how it happened I am almost positive.
So no 1500 backorders on the 1/4 plat unc. The truth is we don't know how many backorders there were, and only the mint knows.
What is my proof of this?
Take a look at the sales report that shows the 615 number for the 1/4 plat unc. Read in the tiny print at the bottom. It clearly says ALL BOXED FIGURES ARE COMPILED OCT 20.
I think the 1/4 went backorder on the 21st a day later so there was more than 615 sold and people put in huge orders. Total orders posted the following week were 2138.
So the real backorder amount according to this is not 1500, it must be much less.
Since the 1/2 sold 1250 or so I would think the 1/4 was minted in at least that amount if not more. But let's see next week, maybe the mint is playing tricks on us.
PS The same thing happened with the 1/10, but I am not going to figure that one out again. Either way the return window has ended for these coins so all people can do is strap themselves in now and ride it out. To sell on Ebay at a loss on these now is insane when they have no where to go but up, even if it takes a year or two or three for it to happen.
The run rate of sales for a day on the 1/4 is not 1500 coins. It was more like 200 coins if that. Maybe i'll buy twice that.
Additionally, look up your stats. 1/4's arent produced in excess of 1/2's EVER , they are generally produced within 100 coins of each other, and that variance being damaged coins.
So, if you "buy" 1/2 uncs at 1250, then by default you "buy" 1/4 uncs at 1250.
1250 includes some degree of backordered coins, so using YOUR numbers, you may end up with 1150 1/2's and 1150 1/4's.
So what happened with the other 950 coins? Certainly no one rec'd them to date.
In general, anyone who "buys" short struck plat proofs, unc and proof buffs and thinks that the USM blew out the unc plats.......that's just not very smart......look for VERY short struck unc w plats
The real numbers will be known much sooner than you suggest......
The run rate of sales for a day on the 1/4 is not 1500 coins. It was more like 200 coins if that. Maybe i'll buy twice that.
Additionally, look up your stats. 1/4's arent produced in excess of 1/2's EVER , they are generally produced within 100 coins of each other, and that variance being damaged coins.
So, if you "buy" 1/2 uncs at 1250, then by default you "buy" 1/4 uncs at 1250.
>>
I looked up the stats and guess what, according to my numbers you are wrong again.
It looks like more 1/4 were minted in the 2006 unc plat , 2005 proof plat, 2004 proof plat, 2002 proof plat, 2001, 1999, 1998 and [gulp] 1997 proof plats.
That's eight years!
At this point I don't know what to say anymore, maybe it is time to tippytoe out and say let's just wait for the final numbers.
PS Based on what happened with the proof plats yesterday I can hardly believe you would say the numbers can't be run up on sales. If any day for the plats proved that wrong, it was yesterday.
I actually got in on those and am waiting for next weeks numbers to decide what to do. I have no clue what the final numbers are but it could be they are the new keys. Like with everything else, it is the mint that says that, not what I wish it to be.
I know how you feel. I may have been fortunate to have missed last night's plat proof buying orgy. Otherwise, I would have shot the moon and would have asked the Treasury Department for a loan under the TARP Program using my buffalos and 08-W plats as collateral. Of course, this collateral is worth more than the Treasury is getting from the banks.
Well I just pulled the trigger on a bunch of unc 1/2 oz AGE using my plastic, We will see how that turns out but I expect them to go fast as they are the last of the W coins this year, all ABOARD!
Half and 7/8...you both make good arguments. The truth as I have learned is somewhere in between. I think it's harder to figure out this year because of the "sale" date which was within the 30-day window for many buyers. Many waited to see if they can get the same coins for cheaper which extended the 30-day window. I know I repurchased a few coins cheaper. I don't know how that figures in either of your calculations. I still appreciate both of your theories. In the long run, this three year series is a winner. No matter which year is the king, there will only be a 1,500 (est.) difference between them.
<< <i>Well I just pulled the trigger on a bunch of unc 1/2 oz AGE using my plastic, We will see how that turns out but I expect them to go fast as they are the last of the W coins this year, all ABOARD! >>
I've been wondering why the gold eagles are just sitting. You would think they would be all gone by now.
GAT, so you think the 1/2's are they way to go. I keep jumping back and forth between the 1/2 oz and the 4-piece sets. I just can't decide which is going to have the future appeal.
How will the plat UNC w get listed in redbook, alone or lumped with the bullion coins?
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
My 2009 Redbook lists the 2006-2008 unc w platinums separately from the bullion versions, and designates the unc w's as "Burnished". No mintage figures are given.
Well I just pulled the trigger on a bunch of unc 1/2 oz AGE using my plastic, We will see how that turns out but I expect them to go fast as they are the last of the W coins this year, all ABOARD!
Aren't the unc 1/2 oz AGE coins also part of the "8-8-08 Double Prosperity Set (BA4)"? If so, there will be many more available than in the single-coin option and the four-coin set.
I am speaking to unc-w plat 1/4 vs 1/2's. Not proofs. I am not speaking to differences of less than 100 coins like in 06. I made that clear in my post. However, you are inferring that their is a VAST difference in how many UNC w 1/2's vs 1/4's plats are produced:
To set the record straight -
W-Unc Plats (final numbers) 06w 07w 1/2 oz 2577 3930 1/4 oz 2676 3900
There is no reason to believe the USM departed from it's previous plans of minting the unc-w plat 1/2 and 1/4 to the same number and any diff's due to damaged coins, etc.
You and all the other forum members that doubt that unc-w's were made in very small numbers will be very surprised once the numbers are sorted out.
Once numbers are sorted out, many of you will place less reliance on printed sales figures (not that we wont use it as a tool, but it wont be scripture like many treat it here) and more reliance on a basket of facts to arrive at a reasonable explanation of production.
In a year where we have seen horrible first sales, a rollercoaster ride on platinum spot prices and shortages of planchets for many USM issues, it is not a stretch to think that ALL of the collector issues were short struck.
As for some issues being run up in sales and others not, I believe the USM has realized their mistake in order taking on the unc-w plat issues, and has corrected their methods when dealing with other issues that took longer to sellout. Clearly, through many calls to the USM, many members here were given no explanation why the numbers were run up on these issues, and were also told that the report was merely orders and didnt bear a resemblence to actual qty available for sale.......
To believe that proof plats were short struck and unc's were not is a rediculous thought. It will be proven wrong.
I just glanced at eBay regarding the Buffalo Gold Sets and here's what I found (7 unc, 2 proof, and one combined):
o Four (4) Unc Set in OGP ($2,575 - $3,456) o Three (3) Unc graded ($2,293+ - 2,699) o One (1) Proof Set in OGP ($3,495) o One (1) Proof Sets Graded ($3,000+) o One sealed Buffalo Unc & Proof ($5,750)
As you can see, even with last night's auction of a Buffalo Unc set at $2,650, collectors are still holding on their sets, especially the PROOF 4cn sets. There has not yet been the rush to sell.
An amazing set appears to be the PCGS MS70 First Strike Set currently at $3,005!
OK guys...........................if it will put a stop to this endless bickering over mintages I'll let you know a secret................
This is how I got the correct audited mintage numbers for the 2005 APE proofs 6 months before mint posted them.
Sometime after Jan 1st. of 09 call your congressional office and ask them to obtain from mint the final audited mintages of APE and AGEs.
Be specific in your wording.......remember these staffers know nothing about coins.
Almost all congressional staffers are happy and eager to help a voter...............they really are............
They will forward your question on congressional letterhead to mint management and you will get a correct answer long before it is ever posted on mint web site.
When you get the answer please post it for all to see.
I think how the coins are listed is how they are perceived. What you seem to be confused about with my position is I am not saying how I want the unc plats to be viewed, I am talking about what I think 99%+ of outside collectors that only look in redbook or see them listed on Ebay and or websites think. That is how I think they will be traded in the long run. Eventually I think they will be collected by the series collectors which is good. But the series continues in my opinion...
You might guess as to what "99% of outside collectors that only look in redbook or see them listed on Ebay and or websites think," but your thoughts in a vacuum don't really support an argument.
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
There are at least 2 things that differentiate the proofs and w-unc from the generic bullion coins.
1. They were marketed, packaged and sold to collectors, not bullion dealers.
2. Each year has a different reverse design.
It's only logical that the redbook lists them under "platinum," but it also includes pictures of the different reverse designs. The unc-ws are one year type coins with a common theme; the tripartate system of government. They make up a 3 year, low mintage, discrete set. The generic platinum bullion coins are part of a continuing series with a stagnant design; any one coin from that group is representative of the whole.
If the unc-ws were intended to be part of the generic platinum bullion coins, wouldn't the Mint have suspended the generic eagle over the sun design for 2006-2008? As far as I know, the Mint typically does that when introducing a new design into an existing series: in 1976 with the bicentennial coins; in 2004-2005 with the nickel; in 2009 with the lincoln designs. The generic design is suspended, it does not run concurrently. Since the 2006-2008 w uncirculated platinums run concurrently with the eagle over the sun bullion coins, it's only logical to view them as a distinct set.
NYC, You seem to have a facination with writing of ESSAYS and copying what has already been written so much that these [This] thread is as long as a set of WORLD BOOK reference books. I admire your interest but after a while it is like reading a yesterdays news paper printed by the New York Times. Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination. My objection with you is your stated opinion of them almost every time you post, and bringing up other posts seemingly just to be in disagreement at times and on other occasions VERY agreeable. You seem to like what Ericj96 post so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times. I feel each and every member here is knowledge enough to decide for their self what is going on or they can learn/teach them selves the facts as we and others have done. Chas.
P.S.This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended as I have read all post on this thread ,every one. I have collected/been a Dealer For the last 20 years and made a great deal of money on the Bullion Plats. since their inception in 1997. If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance. Edited: For puncuation. I said I was a Dealer/ collector and not a Writer of Essays.
Charles Crews ** CU Members that I have had Buy/sell deals with alohagary,dabigkahuna,goldman86,fivecents,endzone,clackamas,ericj96,Bochiman,Wingsrule,adriana,claychaser,holeinone1972,itsnotjustme,MJcoin,Kishul,jsego,TWQG,carlwolfort,jmski52,steelielee,grote15
<< <i>NYC, You seem to have a facination with writing of ESSAYS and copying what has already been written so much that these [This] thread is as long as a set of WORLD BOOK reference books. I admire your interest but after a while it is like reading a yesterdays news paper printed by the New York Times. Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination. My objection with you is your stated opinion of them almost every time you post, and bringing up other posts seemingly just to be in disagreement at times and on other occasions VERY agreeable. You seem to like what Ericj96 so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times. I feel each and every member here is knowledge enough to decide for their self what is going on or they can learn/teach them selves the facts as we and others have done. Chas.
P.S.This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended as I have read all post on this thread ,every one. I have collected/been a Dealer For the last 20 years and made a great deal of money on the Bullion Plats. since their inception in 1997. If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance. >>
You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof
Frankly, I like the '97 through '02 Regular Issues' appearances better than any of the other finishes. They have a good balance between brilliant and frosted devices against brilliant fields, imo, and the Standard Proofs are a close second with totally frosted devices against brilliant fields.
Aesthetically, I think that Liberty's face on the '07 RP Plat is a bit overdone and too metallic-looking - it reminds me of "Terminator 3".
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I am speaking to unc-w plat 1/4 vs 1/2's. Not proofs. I am not speaking to differences of less than 100 coins like in 06. I made that clear in my post. However, you are inferring that their is a VAST difference in how many UNC w 1/2's vs 1/4's plats are produced:
To set the record straight -
W-Unc Plats (final numbers) 06w 07w 1/2 oz 2577 3930 1/4 oz 2676 3900
>>
Look I am happy if you want to believe what you are saying. All I showed was the mint rarely produced less 1/4's than 1/2's in unc or proof. And since they probably made 1250 1/2's then they made at least 1250 1/4's or more. Probably more. The numbers show that, all the years I listed show that.
As far as the future and sales reports go I think this is probably the last year some will be following them this closely as all issues will be high sales from here on out except for maybe the spouse coins. This is the year, the special year, to have purchased from the mint.
Also though I find it odd you talk about 500 coins like that is some great amount. 500 1/10 plats was only $100,000 which is less than some here spend on a single coin. These are not large dollar number to run out.
This is why I am cautious on the proofs after what happened to the unc.
Also the 1/4 numbers did drop this week after they canceled coin orders so let's just wait and see.
But the numbers show the mint almost always made as many 1/4's as 1'/2's or more, any way you slice it.
NYC, You seem to have a facination with writing of ESSAYS and copying what has already been written so much that these [This] thread is as long as a set of WORLD BOOK reference books. I admire your interest but after a while it is like reading a yesterdays news paper printed by the New York Times.
I do tend to go on at times.
Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination.
Not intentionally; I typically only bring up the regular bullions when prompted to do so. It's not a secret that I don't see the bullion plats in the same light as the proof plats or unc-w plats. One of the most appealing aspects to me of those is the changing reverse, which effectively makes each year a different type coin. This preference isn't limited to platinums; I'm similarly disinterested in the gold and silver proof and uncirculated American Eagle coins-- I think the design has merit and understand why they are widely collected, but the mintages are just too high for my liking and the steady design -- while certainly consistent with the classic concept of collecting coins by date and mintmark-- just strikes me as tiresome. I say this with appreciation for the fact that many would disagree.
You seem to like what Ericj96 post so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times.
I share Eric's views on a number of things, and have found him to be a good source of information in the past, but don't think I'm a parrot.
This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended understood; none taken.
as I have read all post on this thread, every one. you must be tired.
If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance. Edited: For puncuation. I said I was a Dealer/ collector and not a Writer of Essays
I don't feel attacked; your criticism seems well-intentioned. Being called a "writer of essays" would be considered a great compliment in many circles; I don't think so highly of myself as to imagine you meant it as such, but instead as a reminder that brevity is the soul of wit.
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
>>
NY Council you put that right, it is a guess. When I asked you how they are listed in the registry set you said you didn't know.
Anyway the reason I even brought this up was I think it could be important as to how these coins will be valued in the future. I am not sure why some are so offended by the concept of them being included with the bullion strikes though.
It almost sounds like you think the regular strike plats are trash and the unc W are fine wines or something. However if you ever in the future look at the registry set you will see some collect the trashy bullion plats too. They are also listed together by chance.
There is also the view this may not matter how they are listed and that could be true. Anyway since you seem to get so ruffled by this concept I won't bring it up again and will let it rest. Now you can relax.
NY Council you put that right, it is a guess. When I asked you how they are listed in the registry set you said you didn't know.
When I don't know something, I say as much. When I guess something, I call it a guess.
I've repeatedly stated the reasons I view the proofs and unc-w proofs as distinct from the regular bullions; nothing you've said convinces me to change that view.
NYC, I consider you an exception of the legal profession and a Gentleman of the numismatist. NUF SAID to put it into Redneck SOUTHERN TERMS. Chas.
Charles Crews ** CU Members that I have had Buy/sell deals with alohagary,dabigkahuna,goldman86,fivecents,endzone,clackamas,ericj96,Bochiman,Wingsrule,adriana,claychaser,holeinone1972,itsnotjustme,MJcoin,Kishul,jsego,TWQG,carlwolfort,jmski52,steelielee,grote15
I understand you want to make a point that there are "probably more" qtrs than halfs in unc this year. I speak with facts to back me up, others (you included) shoot from the hip. Some have agendas. Some have too many 06-w uncs in their portfolios and dont want to see them dethrowned.
I dont have any agenda and I do not agree with your opinion.
You have no basis for that opinion other than a bad sales report that has already been proven to be an "orders" report. Miscalculated and now revised downwards weekly, what a joke.
If you had reasonable understanding of the modern market, you would probably guess they made the same number of unc-w's this year, 1/2 and 1/4's. Instead you continue to push the bs about "more" 1/4's than 1/2's in unc.
I have no more to say to you on this topic, other than the true numbers will be known soon.
NYCounsel is one of the best in the business when it comes to Platinum coins. I am always interested in what he has to say.
By the way, I had to return close to (50) 4-pc sets of proof platinum over the past month, which the Mint states will all be destroyed and not resold. Essentially, many of the sets were in transit to me when the Mint lowered the price by about $250/set. In fact, (10) had not even been shipped yet. I tried to convince Wash DC to simply reprice the sets at the new price level. Our govt. at work - they insisted that I await delivery of the sets, return all of them at THEIR expense and allow them to ship me (50) different sets in the meantime. Other than all the problems I ran into with having the double orders on a credit card, things went fairly smoothly (so far at least), but, according to the Mint those (50) sets of coins they got back will be destroyed and not resold. If true, the mintages will drop by about (50) per denomination sometime down the road.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Surprised they said they would destroy those sets. Was that the 1-800 number? If so, makes sense - those guys/gals dont have a clue.
Unless you mark that they were "damaged" on the return they shouldnt get culled out and examined. My understanding is that they go right back to stock for sale.
They DO have an idiotic process.........why not grant the reduction in price? I never understood it.
<< <i>NYCounsel is one of the best in the business when it comes to Platinum coins. I am always interested in what he has to say.
By the way, I had to return close to (50) 4-pc sets of proof platinum over the past month, which the Mint states will all be destroyed and not resold. Essentially, many of the sets were in transit to me when the Mint lowered the price by about $250/set. In fact, (10) had not even been shipped yet. I tried to convince Wash DC to simply reprice the sets at the new price level. Our govt. at work - they insisted that I await delivery of the sets, return all of them at THEIR expense and allow them to ship me (50) different sets in the meantime. Other than all the problems I ran into with having the double orders on a credit card, things went fairly smoothly (so far at least), but, according to the Mint those (50) sets of coins they got back will be destroyed and not resold. If true, the mintages will drop by about (50) per denomination sometime down the road.
Wondercoin >>
I hope you at least had the good sense to cherry pick the sets before sending the other 50 back! LOL
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
>>
NY Council you put that right, it is a guess. When I asked you how they are listed in the registry set you said you didn't know.
Anyway the reason I even brought this up was I think it could be important as to how these coins will be valued in the future. I am not sure why some are so offended by the concept of them being included with the bullion strikes though.
It almost sounds like you think the regular strike plats are trash and the unc W are fine wines or something. However if you ever in the future look at the registry set you will see some collect the trashy bullion plats too. They are also listed together by chance.
There is also the view this may not matter how they are listed and that could be true. Anyway since you seem to get so ruffled by this concept I won't bring it up again and will let it rest. Now you can relax. >>
UNC coins and UNC-W coins are definitely not equal. The UNC coins are all the same design and frankly boring, BUT were not meant to be beauties. UNC coins are sent out to dealers in tubes of 20...which can and do cause marks...the tubes are put into a box totaling 500 coins. They are regular UNC bullion coins for one reason only....for people to buy as a store of wealth just like Gold bullion coins....up until a few months ago they were sold for a small premium over the spot price, and as the spot price goes up and down, they are sold and bought back...called open market trading of the physical metal which is backed by the US Govt for quality and quantity of platinum in each coin. They are touched by human hands frequently. The spread was typically $20 to $50 before a few months ago....meaning if the spot price was $1000 you could buy a 1 ounce coin for $1020 to $1050 depending on which dealer you got it from. A week later if platinum went up to $1300 you could sell your coins for $1320 to $1350...the same $20 to $50 amount over spot that you originally paid for the coin. The spread would be consistent. Like I said the coins were constantly being touched by human hands and traded.
UNC-W coins OBVIOUSLY were not meant for that since they have a different reverse design each year..... come with the W mint mark... are not meant to be touched by human hands....and not sold to dealers directly. Obviously meant as a collector's coin and the 2006 version has the lowest mintage in over 90 years with a chance for 2008 to be even lower (jury is out on that one).
With the mint stopping production they are a mini series within the series of platinum coins that are very special...2006 to 2008. Most people do not know they exist...YET.
7/8 - No, that was not the (800) number. I made my way to the "top" in Washington DC at their headquarters. Up the chain I went in DC until I finally reached the "lead dog". I had hoped I could convince the "lead dog" to simply reprice the sets at the new level, especially since some had not even left the Memphis facility yet and many others were in the FED X process but not yet delivered. They truly had no interest in doing the "simple thing" and when they went as far as to offer to pay all my shipping charges to send them back, I realized there was nothing I was going to say to change their minds. They also made it very clear that the coins were to be destroyed when they received the returns (as they said all of the 08 returned platinum was going to be destroyed as well). I suspect the returns will be way more than normal especially, because, I am certainly not the only one who had overpriced sets capable of being returned for repriced (lower priced) sets and would "jump through the hoops" to save about $12,000.00 (about what I saved in my case). If all of these coins were to be destroyed, what will that do to the mintages when it all gets sorted out in about 2 years?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>7/8 - No, that was not the (800) number. I made my way to the "top" in Washington DC at their headquarters. Up the chain I went in DC until I finally reached the "lead dog". I had hoped I could convince the "lead dog" to simply reprice the sets at the new level, especially since some had not even left the Memphis facility yet and many others were in the FED X process but not yet delivered. They truly had no interest in doing the "simple thing" and when they went as far as to offer to pay all my shipping charges to send them back, I realized there was nothing I was going to say to change their minds. They also made it very clear that the coins were to be destroyed when they received the returns (as they said all of the 08 returned platinum was going to be destroyed as well). I suspect the returns will be way more than normal especially, because, I am certainly not the only one who had overpriced sets capable of being returned for repriced (lower priced) sets and would "jump through the hoops" to save about $12,000.00 (about what I saved in my case). If all of these coins were to be destroyed, what will that do to the mintages when it all gets sorted out in about 2 years?
Wondercoin >>
You can also scratch 10 sets of 2008-W unc. APE that I returned Nov. 27th. They were all marked as damaged. Bad reverse rims.
I have always been a fan of the "W" Burnished coins - to a fault actually. When I was taking them in for spot (or 1% back) earlier this year, in most cases I just couldn't bring myself to sending them off to the "melter" and making my easy 1% or 2%. No, I had to set them aside as "special" coins (and now look at them at about $1,100/oz loss at these levels). But, that is only a paper loss - I still have time to make a profit on the deals one day.
Wondercoin
P.S. I violated a cardinal rule of bullion trading with those W plat coins - I let my emotions get the better of me and paid the price.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I have always been a fan of the "W" Burnished coins - to a fault actually. When I was taking them in for spot (or 1% back) earlier this year, in most cases I just couldn't bring myself to sending them off to the "melter" and making my easy 1% or 2%. No, I had to set them aside as "special" coins (and now look at them at about $1,100/oz loss at these levels). But, that is only a paper loss - I still have time to make a profit on the deals one day.
Wondercoin
P.S. I violated a cardinal rule of bullion trading with those W plat coins - I let my emotions get the better of me and paid the price. >>
Every one who bought platinum last year has lost money if they sell now.
Understand you are a fan, but if you say that the returns of prrof plats are to be destroyed, then shouldnt we expect the same of the returned unc-w plats?
That would be devastating for the mintage numbers, the uncs were returned in record numbers AGAIN, twice this year!
Comments
I cant believe when I read these boards of individuals quoting sales reports like scripture.....
Those reports are as bad as the government reports on inflation.
I like the 1 oz Gold Buff, the 1/4 oz Gold Buff, all the Unc W plats (these will be the lowest #'s of the lot, and will be lower than 06...), not yet ready to dive in with the proof plats (just because I dont buy many of those anyway)
They confirmed that cancellations were not deducted from the numbers this week.
Two weeks ago we learned from two sources that contacted the USM Public Affairs and Marketing Dept's that the sales report included ALL ORDERS.
So - yes they included sales that were subsequently cancelled. That is what they told us.
Why didnt they deduct cancellations? They didnt say they wouldnt be, just that they weren't deducted this week.
Thanks for making this an interesting thread. It has been a wild ride over the last month since the US Mint announced that they were discontinuing a number of series and coins.
I think a number of forum members have quite a herd of buffaloes and flocks of eagles. No matter what the final mintages turn out to be, to paraphrase Ericj96, 2008 looks to be a year of winners (buffaloes, eagles, etc).
The buffalo numbers seem fine to me,the plat unc may have been struck to more than most thought. If they took that many orders then nobody knows where the in stock amount was. Without knowing that it is only a 100% guess on the mintages at this point.
Without overthinking it, I would probably consider them part of the bullion series, although I think a case could be made for them to be treated as their own subset. I don't collect uncirculated gold w fractionals, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take away the packaging, they're basically mintmarked uncirculated gold bullion coins. I also am not sure how best to catgorize the 1999 w gold error coins; the nature of the error makes categorization difficult -- my opinion is that they probably belong to proofs.
Do you consider the 2008 W buffalo unc part of the buffalo bullion ounce coin series or an ended one year issue that will never be compared?
I consider the fractionals to be a different animal from the one ounce coin series.
How will the plat UNC w get listed in redbook, alone or lumped with the bullion coins?
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
How are the plat unc w listed in the registry set, separate or with other bullion strikes?
I don't know, but I definitely think they are a distinct set. A 3 coin uncirculated platinum set distinguished by a distinctive design with a coherent 3 coin theme.
The different reverse makes them different coins. If they just had a "w" mintmark, I'd see them as part of the bullion series starting in 1997. Similarly, the 50 state quarters are distinguishable from the Washington quarters from 1932-1998, but meld better since the Mint did not issue both types concurrently. The 1976 bicentennials are also their own design, but take the place of what would otherwise be a regular reverse for 1976. That's the way I see things; how various publishers, PCGS or other collectors might see things is up to them.
Have you ever had an explanation for the ~1500 orders being taken of 1/4 unc plats AFTER backorder date of 10/21 and no large orders being filled?
Do you have an explanation for 500 1/10 oz coin orders being taken after SELLOUT and none of those orders being filled?
Yes, it's been 7 weeks. Numbers have only moved by returns, and only have been revised DOWNWARDS.
Cancellations last week of forum members amounted to 311 1/4 oz coins and that was only a few orders!!! But the sales report comes out today and shows a net decrease of 145 coins. How do you explain that?
The USM Office of Public affairs sayd cancellations have NOT been deducted from sales numbers THIS WEEK. Are we to expect numbers to drop next week?
I think there are alot of unanswered questions. Lots of reports of not receiving coins. Lots of reports of order cancellations.
No ask me once more - should i trust the sales report? Wake up and smell the coffee.
<< <i>NY council do you consider the 2006W to 2008 W unc gold fractionals an ended series or part of the bullion series like the 1999W gold error coins?
Without overthinking it, I would probably consider them part of the bullion series, although I think a case could be made for them to be treated as their own subset. I don't collect uncirculated gold w fractionals, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take away the packaging, they're basically mintmarked uncirculated gold bullion coins. I also am not sure how best to catgorize the 1999 w gold error coins; the nature of the error makes categorization difficult -- my opinion is that they probably belong to proofs.
Do you consider the 2008 W buffalo unc part of the buffalo bullion ounce coin series or an ended one year issue that will never be compared?
I consider the fractionals to be a different animal from the one ounce coin series.
How will the plat UNC w get listed in redbook, alone or lumped with the bullion coins?
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
How are the plat unc w listed in the registry set, separate or with other bullion strikes?
I don't know, but I definitely think they are a distinct set. A 3 coin uncirculated platinum set distinguished by a distinctive design with a coherent 3 coin theme.
The different reverse makes them different coins. If they just had a "w" mintmark, I'd see them as part of the bullion series starting in 1997. Similarly, the 50 state quarters are distinguishable from the Washington quarters from 1932-1998, but meld better since the Mint did not issue both types concurrently. The 1976 bicentennials are also their own design, but take the place of what would otherwise be a regular reverse for 1976. That's the way I see things; how various publishers, PCGS or other collectors might see things is up to them. >>
I think how the coins are listed is how they are perceived. What you seem to be confused about with my position is I am not saying how I want the unc plats to be viewed, I am talking about what I think 99%+ of outside collectors that only look in redbook or see them listed on Ebay and or websites think. That is how I think they will be traded in the long run. Eventually I think they will be collected by the series collectors which is good. But the series continues in my opinion, and you answered the questions like I thought.
<< <i>Half -
Have you ever had an explanation for the ~1500 orders being taken of 1/4 unc plats AFTER backorder date of 10/21 and no large orders being filled?
>>
I'm sorry but there is no explanation because that is not what happened. As I posted the 1/4 were backordered after 615 sales, not at 615.
You seem to think the 1/4 were backorder at 615 and everything else was a backorder.
That is not how it happened I am almost positive.
So no 1500 backorders on the 1/4 plat unc. The truth is we don't know how many backorders there were, and only the mint knows.
What is my proof of this?
Take a look at the sales report that shows the 615 number for the 1/4 plat unc. Read in the tiny print at the bottom. It clearly says ALL BOXED FIGURES ARE COMPILED OCT 20.
I think the 1/4 went backorder on the 21st a day later so there was more than 615 sold and people put in huge orders. Total orders posted the following week were 2138.
So the real backorder amount according to this is not 1500, it must be much less.
Since the 1/2 sold 1250 or so I would think the 1/4 was minted in at least that amount if not more. But let's see next week, maybe the mint is playing tricks on us.
PS The same thing happened with the 1/10, but I am not going to figure that one out again. Either way the return window has ended for these coins so all people can do is strap themselves in now and ride it out. To sell on Ebay at a loss on these now is insane when they have no where to go but up, even if it takes a year or two or three for it to happen.
The run rate of sales for a day on the 1/4 is not 1500 coins. It was more like 200 coins if that. Maybe i'll buy twice that.
Additionally, look up your stats. 1/4's arent produced in excess of 1/2's EVER , they are generally produced within 100 coins of each other, and that variance being damaged coins.
So, if you "buy" 1/2 uncs at 1250, then by default you "buy" 1/4 uncs at 1250.
1250 includes some degree of backordered coins, so using YOUR numbers, you may end up with 1150 1/2's and 1150 1/4's.
So what happened with the other 950 coins? Certainly no one rec'd them to date.
In general, anyone who "buys" short struck plat proofs, unc and proof buffs and thinks that the USM blew out the unc plats.......that's just not very smart......look for VERY short struck unc w plats
The real numbers will be known much sooner than you suggest......
$2,650.00
<< <i>Half -
The run rate of sales for a day on the 1/4 is not 1500 coins. It was more like 200 coins if that. Maybe i'll buy twice that.
Additionally, look up your stats. 1/4's arent produced in excess of 1/2's EVER , they are generally produced within 100 coins of each other, and that variance being damaged coins.
So, if you "buy" 1/2 uncs at 1250, then by default you "buy" 1/4 uncs at 1250.
>>
I looked up the stats and guess what, according to my numbers you are wrong again.
It looks like more 1/4 were minted in the 2006 unc plat , 2005 proof plat, 2004 proof plat, 2002 proof plat, 2001, 1999, 1998 and [gulp] 1997 proof plats.
That's eight years!
At this point I don't know what to say anymore, maybe it is time to tippytoe out and say let's just wait for the final numbers.
PS Based on what happened with the proof plats yesterday I can hardly believe you would say the numbers can't be run up on sales. If any day for the plats proved that wrong, it was yesterday.
I actually got in on those and am waiting for next weeks numbers to decide what to do. I have no clue what the final numbers are but it could be they are the new keys. Like with everything else, it is the mint that says that, not what I wish it to be.
I hope all of my backordered items don't get filled, or I'll have some explaining to do about why I went over my credit card limit.
I know how you feel. I may have been fortunate to have missed last night's plat proof buying orgy. Otherwise, I would have shot the moon and would have asked the Treasury Department for a loan under the TARP Program using my buffalos and 08-W plats as collateral. Of course, this collateral is worth more than the Treasury is getting from the banks.
Ren
<< <i>Well I just pulled the trigger on a bunch of unc 1/2 oz AGE using my plastic, We will see how that turns out but I expect them to go fast as they are the last of the W coins this year, all ABOARD! >>
I've been wondering why the gold eagles are just sitting. You would think they would be all gone by now.
GAT, so you think the 1/2's are they way to go. I keep jumping back and forth between the 1/2 oz and the 4-piece sets. I just can't decide which is going to have the future appeal.
I think the unc w platinums should be listed separately; the changing reverse sets them apart. That said, in the 2007 version I have at the office, the proofs currently have their own pictures, but are listed with the regular bullion coins, just with the w designator. Some different annotation will be required to account for the unc-w platinums.
My 2009 Redbook lists the 2006-2008 unc w platinums separately from the bullion versions, and designates the unc w's as "Burnished". No mintage figures are given.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Aren't the unc 1/2 oz AGE coins also part of the "8-8-08 Double Prosperity Set (BA4)"? If so, there will be many more available than in the single-coin option and the four-coin set.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I am speaking to unc-w plat 1/4 vs 1/2's. Not proofs. I am not speaking to differences of less than 100 coins like in 06. I made that clear in my post. However, you are inferring that their is a VAST difference in how many UNC w 1/2's vs 1/4's plats are produced:
To set the record straight -
W-Unc Plats (final numbers)
06w 07w
1/2 oz 2577 3930
1/4 oz 2676 3900
There is no reason to believe the USM departed from it's previous plans of minting the unc-w plat 1/2 and 1/4 to the same number and any diff's due to damaged coins, etc.
You and all the other forum members that doubt that unc-w's were made in very small numbers will be very surprised once the numbers are sorted out.
Once numbers are sorted out, many of you will place less reliance on printed sales figures (not that we wont use it as a tool, but it wont be scripture like many treat it here) and more reliance on a basket of facts to arrive at a reasonable explanation of production.
In a year where we have seen horrible first sales, a rollercoaster ride on platinum spot prices and shortages of planchets for many USM issues, it is not a stretch to think that ALL of the collector issues were short struck.
As for some issues being run up in sales and others not, I believe the USM has realized their mistake in order taking on the unc-w plat issues, and has corrected their methods when dealing with other issues that took longer to sellout. Clearly, through many calls to the USM, many members here were given no explanation why the numbers were run up on these issues, and were also told that the report was merely orders and didnt bear a resemblence to actual qty available for sale.......
To believe that proof plats were short struck and unc's were not is a rediculous thought. It will be proven wrong.
Link
Someone got a good deal.
watch out below.......
<< <i>
<< <i>Corrected 12.9.08: APEs' Sales #s >>
>>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Corrected 12.9.08: APEs' Sales #s >>
>>
>>
Love that chart!
o Four (4) Unc Set in OGP ($2,575 - $3,456)
o Three (3) Unc graded ($2,293+ - 2,699)
o One (1) Proof Set in OGP ($3,495)
o One (1) Proof Sets Graded ($3,000+)
o One sealed Buffalo Unc & Proof ($5,750)
eBay - Buffalo Gold Sets
As you can see, even with last night's auction of a Buffalo Unc set at $2,650, collectors are still holding on their sets, especially the PROOF 4cn sets. There has not yet been the rush to sell.
An amazing set appears to be the PCGS MS70 First Strike Set currently at $3,005!
PCGS MS70 First Strike Buffalo 4cn Set
This is how I got the correct audited mintage numbers for the 2005 APE proofs 6 months before mint posted them.
Sometime after Jan 1st. of 09 call your congressional office and ask them to obtain from mint the final audited mintages of APE and AGEs.
Be specific in your wording.......remember these staffers know nothing about coins.
Almost all congressional staffers are happy and eager to help a voter...............they really are............
They will forward your question on congressional letterhead to mint management and you will get a correct answer long before it is ever posted on mint web site.
When you get the answer please post it for all to see.
You might guess as to what "99% of outside collectors that only look in redbook or see them listed on Ebay and or websites think," but your thoughts in a vacuum don't really support an argument.
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
There are at least 2 things that differentiate the proofs and w-unc from the generic bullion coins.
1. They were marketed, packaged and sold to collectors, not bullion dealers.
2. Each year has a different reverse design.
It's only logical that the redbook lists them under "platinum," but it also includes pictures of the different reverse designs. The unc-ws are one year type coins with a common theme; the tripartate system of government. They make up a 3 year, low mintage, discrete set. The generic platinum bullion coins are part of a continuing series with a stagnant design; any one coin from that group is representative of the whole.
If the unc-ws were intended to be part of the generic platinum bullion coins, wouldn't the Mint have suspended the generic eagle over the sun design for 2006-2008? As far as I know, the Mint typically does that when introducing a new design into an existing series: in 1976 with the bicentennial coins; in 2004-2005 with the nickel; in 2009 with the lincoln designs. The generic design is suspended, it does not run concurrently. Since the 2006-2008 w uncirculated platinums run concurrently with the eagle over the sun bullion coins, it's only logical to view them as a distinct set.
Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination.
My objection with you is your stated opinion of them almost every time you post, and bringing up other posts seemingly just to be in disagreement at times and on other occasions VERY agreeable. You seem to like what Ericj96 post so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times. I feel each and every member here is knowledge enough to decide for their self what is going on or they can learn/teach them selves the facts as we and others have done. Chas.
P.S.This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended as I
have read all post on this thread ,every one. I have collected/been a Dealer
For the last 20 years and made a great deal of money on the Bullion Plats.
since their inception in 1997. If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance.
Edited: For puncuation. I said I was a Dealer/ collector and not a Writer of Essays.
<< <i>NYC, You seem to have a facination with writing of ESSAYS and copying what has already been written so much that these [This] thread is as long as a set of WORLD BOOK reference books. I admire your interest but after a while it is like reading a yesterdays news paper printed by the New York Times.
Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination.
My objection with you is your stated opinion of them almost every time you post, and bringing up other posts seemingly just to be in disagreement at times and on other occasions VERY agreeable. You seem to like what Ericj96 so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times. I feel each and every member here is knowledge enough to decide for their self what is going on or they can learn/teach them selves the facts as we and others have done. Chas.
P.S.This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended as I
have read all post on this thread ,every one. I have collected/been a Dealer
For the last 20 years and made a great deal of money on the Bullion Plats.
since their inception in 1997. If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance. >>
HEHEHE. uhhhhhhhhhh oh!
Frankly, I like the '97 through '02 Regular Issues' appearances better than any of the other finishes. They have a good balance between brilliant and frosted devices against brilliant fields, imo, and the Standard Proofs are a close second with totally frosted devices against brilliant fields.
Aesthetically, I think that Liberty's face on the '07 RP Plat is a bit overdone and too metallic-looking - it reminds me of "Terminator 3".
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Half -
I am speaking to unc-w plat 1/4 vs 1/2's. Not proofs. I am not speaking to differences of less than 100 coins like in 06. I made that clear in my post. However, you are inferring that their is a VAST difference in how many UNC w 1/2's vs 1/4's plats are produced:
To set the record straight -
W-Unc Plats (final numbers)
06w 07w
1/2 oz 2577 3930
1/4 oz 2676 3900
>>
Look I am happy if you want to believe what you are saying. All I showed was the mint rarely produced less 1/4's than 1/2's in unc or proof. And since they probably made 1250 1/2's then they made at least 1250 1/4's or more. Probably more. The numbers show that, all the years I listed show that.
As far as the future and sales reports go I think this is probably the last year some will be following them this closely as all issues will be high sales from here on out except for maybe the spouse coins. This is the year, the special year, to have purchased from the mint.
Also though I find it odd you talk about 500 coins like that is some great amount. 500 1/10 plats was only $100,000 which is less than some here spend on a single coin. These are not large dollar number to run out.
This is why I am cautious on the proofs after what happened to the unc.
Also the 1/4 numbers did drop this week after they canceled coin orders so let's just wait and see.
But the numbers show the mint almost always made as many 1/4's as 1'/2's or more, any way you slice it.
I do tend to go on at times.
Also your description of the BULLION PLATS. has gotten to be a favorite subject for you to center your ESSAY, sub. Subject about. You do not mention the Difference and BEAUTY about the 97 thru and including 02 issues that are almost as stunningly struck as the 2007 Rev. Proof, I admit the remaining 03 thru present Day Plats are a plain Jane variety ,but every series has them. All can`t be winners of every eye and imagination.
Not intentionally; I typically only bring up the regular bullions when prompted to do so. It's not a secret that I don't see the bullion plats in the same light as the proof plats or unc-w plats. One of the most appealing aspects to me of those is the changing reverse, which effectively makes each year a different type coin. This preference isn't limited to platinums; I'm similarly disinterested in the gold and silver proof and uncirculated American Eagle coins-- I think the design has merit and understand why they are widely collected, but the mintages are just too high for my liking and the steady design -- while certainly consistent with the classic concept of collecting coins by date and mintmark-- just strikes me as tiresome. I say this with appreciation for the fact that many would disagree.
You seem to like what Ericj96 post so much you get a kick out of repeating it in your post many, too many times.
I share Eric's views on a number of things, and have found him to be a good source of information in the past, but don't think I'm a parrot.
This is only my personal opinion, no anger or hostility intended understood; none taken.
as I have read all post on this thread, every one. you must be tired.
If you feel attacked I APOLOGISE in advance. Edited: For puncuation. I said I was a Dealer/ collector and not a Writer of Essays
I don't feel attacked; your criticism seems well-intentioned. Being called a "writer of essays" would be considered a great compliment in many circles; I don't think so highly of myself as to imagine you meant it as such, but instead as a reminder that brevity is the soul of wit.
<< <i>
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
>>
NY Council you put that right, it is a guess. When I asked you how they are listed in the registry set you said you didn't know.
Anyway the reason I even brought this up was I think it could be important as to how these coins will be valued in the future. I am not sure why some are so offended by the concept of them being included with the bullion strikes though.
It almost sounds like you think the regular strike plats are trash and the unc W are fine wines or something. However if you ever in the future look at the registry set you will see some collect the trashy bullion plats too. They are also listed together by chance.
There is also the view this may not matter how they are listed and that could be true. Anyway since you seem to get so ruffled by this concept I won't bring it up again and will let it rest. Now you can relax.
When I don't know something, I say as much. When I guess something, I call it a guess.
I've repeatedly stated the reasons I view the proofs and unc-w proofs as distinct from the regular bullions; nothing you've said convinces me to change that view.
he is both a scholar and a gentleman!
You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.
I understand you want to make a point that there are "probably more" qtrs than halfs in unc this year. I speak with facts to back me up, others (you included) shoot from the hip. Some have agendas. Some have too many 06-w uncs in their portfolios and dont want to see them dethrowned.
I dont have any agenda and I do not agree with your opinion.
You have no basis for that opinion other than a bad sales report that has already been proven to be an "orders" report. Miscalculated and now revised downwards weekly, what a joke.
If you had reasonable understanding of the modern market, you would probably guess they made the same number of unc-w's this year, 1/2 and 1/4's. Instead you continue to push the bs about "more" 1/4's than 1/2's in unc.
I have no more to say to you on this topic, other than the true numbers will be known soon.
By the way, I had to return close to (50) 4-pc sets of proof platinum over the past month, which the Mint states will all be destroyed and not resold. Essentially, many of the sets were in transit to me when the Mint lowered the price by about $250/set. In fact, (10) had not even been shipped yet. I tried to convince Wash DC to simply reprice the sets at the new price level. Our govt. at work - they insisted that I await delivery of the sets, return all of them at THEIR expense and allow them to ship me (50) different sets in the meantime. Other than all the problems I ran into with having the double orders on a credit card, things went fairly smoothly (so far at least), but, according to the Mint those (50) sets of coins they got back will be destroyed and not resold. If true, the mintages will drop by about (50) per denomination sometime down the road.
Wondercoin
Surprised they said they would destroy those sets. Was that the 1-800 number? If so, makes sense - those guys/gals dont have a clue.
Unless you mark that they were "damaged" on the return they shouldnt get culled out and examined. My understanding is that they go right back to stock for sale.
They DO have an idiotic process.........why not grant the reduction in price? I never understood it.
<< <i>NYCounsel is one of the best in the business when it comes to Platinum coins. I am always interested in what he has to say.
By the way, I had to return close to (50) 4-pc sets of proof platinum over the past month, which the Mint states will all be destroyed and not resold. Essentially, many of the sets were in transit to me when the Mint lowered the price by about $250/set. In fact, (10) had not even been shipped yet. I tried to convince Wash DC to simply reprice the sets at the new price level. Our govt. at work - they insisted that I await delivery of the sets, return all of them at THEIR expense and allow them to ship me (50) different sets in the meantime. Other than all the problems I ran into with having the double orders on a credit card, things went fairly smoothly (so far at least), but, according to the Mint those (50) sets of coins they got back will be destroyed and not resold. If true, the mintages will drop by about (50) per denomination sometime down the road.
Wondercoin >>
I hope you at least had the good sense to cherry pick the sets before sending the other 50 back! LOL
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'd venture a guess that 95% of platinum proof and unc-w collectors who currently make the market for these coins would disagree with you -- they buy platinum proofs and unc-ws, but don't even think of buying the plain uncirculated bullion coins.
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NY Council you put that right, it is a guess. When I asked you how they are listed in the registry set you said you didn't know.
Anyway the reason I even brought this up was I think it could be important as to how these coins will be valued in the future. I am not sure why some are so offended by the concept of them being included with the bullion strikes though.
It almost sounds like you think the regular strike plats are trash and the unc W are fine wines or something. However if you ever in the future look at the registry set you will see some collect the trashy bullion plats too. They are also listed together by chance.
There is also the view this may not matter how they are listed and that could be true. Anyway since you seem to get so ruffled by this concept I won't bring it up again and will let it rest. Now you can relax.
UNC coins and UNC-W coins are definitely not equal. The UNC coins are all the same design and frankly boring, BUT were not meant to be beauties. UNC coins are sent out to dealers in tubes of 20...which can and do cause marks...the tubes are put into a box totaling 500 coins. They are regular UNC bullion coins for one reason only....for people to buy as a store of wealth just like Gold bullion coins....up until a few months ago they were sold for a small premium over the spot price, and as the spot price goes up and down, they are sold and bought back...called open market trading of the physical metal which is backed by the US Govt for quality and quantity of platinum in each coin. They are touched by human hands frequently. The spread was typically $20 to $50 before a few months ago....meaning if the spot price was $1000 you could buy a 1 ounce coin for $1020 to $1050 depending on which dealer you got it from. A week later if platinum went up to $1300 you could sell your coins for $1320 to $1350...the same $20 to $50 amount over spot that you originally paid for the coin. The spread would be consistent. Like I said the coins were constantly being touched by human hands and traded.
UNC-W coins OBVIOUSLY were not meant for that since they have a different reverse design each year..... come with the W mint mark... are not meant to be touched by human hands....and not sold to dealers directly. Obviously meant as a collector's coin and the 2006 version has the lowest mintage in over 90 years with a chance for 2008 to be even lower (jury is out on that one).
With the mint stopping production they are a mini series within the series of platinum coins that are very special...2006 to 2008. Most people do not know they exist...YET.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I agree ... NY Council can write on as long as he likes ...
he is both a scholar and a gentleman! >>
Ditto!! THANKS NY Council. I really enjoy your posts.
Well, if you are right, alot of unc-w platinum is going to the slag pile......
Then my numbers even look high......
<< <i>7/8 - No, that was not the (800) number. I made my way to the "top" in Washington DC at their headquarters. Up the chain I went in DC until I finally reached the "lead dog". I had hoped I could convince the "lead dog" to simply reprice the sets at the new level, especially since some had not even left the Memphis facility yet and many others were in the FED X process but not yet delivered. They truly had no interest in doing the "simple thing" and when they went as far as to offer to pay all my shipping charges to send them back, I realized there was nothing I was going to say to change their minds. They also made it very clear that the coins were to be destroyed when they received the returns (as they said all of the 08 returned platinum was going to be destroyed as well). I suspect the returns will be way more than normal especially, because, I am certainly not the only one who had overpriced sets capable of being returned for repriced (lower priced) sets and would "jump through the hoops" to save about $12,000.00 (about what I saved in my case). If all of these coins were to be destroyed, what will that do to the mintages when it all gets sorted out in about 2 years?
Wondercoin >>
You can also scratch 10 sets of 2008-W unc. APE that I returned Nov. 27th.
They were all marked as damaged.
Bad reverse rims.
We haven't heard your opinion on the unc-w plats?
Wondercoin
P.S. I violated a cardinal rule of bullion trading with those W plat coins - I let my emotions get the better of me and paid the price.
<< <i>I have always been a fan of the "W" Burnished coins - to a fault actually. When I was taking them in for spot (or 1% back) earlier this year, in most cases I just couldn't bring myself to sending them off to the "melter" and making my easy 1% or 2%. No, I had to set them aside as "special" coins (and now look at them at about $1,100/oz loss at these levels). But, that is only a paper loss - I still have time to make a profit on the deals one day.
Wondercoin
P.S. I violated a cardinal rule of bullion trading with those W plat coins - I let my emotions get the better of me and paid the price. >>
Every one who bought platinum last year has lost money if they sell now.
Understand you are a fan, but if you say that the returns of prrof plats are to be destroyed, then shouldnt we expect the same of the returned unc-w plats?
That would be devastating for the mintage numbers, the uncs were returned in record numbers AGAIN, twice this year!