Or was this just a fluke/bargain caused by an auction ending late on a weekday afternoon??? >>
Not too much cooling if judging by the $9156 which an NGC PF70 ER Buff set sold for on the 6th!!! HOLY COW! This beat out a recent sale of a PCGS (non-FS) PR70DCAM set near the same time. $10K is comming for the NGC ER sets....just unreal.
For precious metal coins in general, premiums for scarce dates tend to decline (at least on a percentage basis) as their bullion value rises.
If the price of platinum keeps rising, a 1997 bullion plat, bought at the current price, could wind up outperforming a 2008-W proof plat bought at the current price.
On the other hand, I think a scarce date would offer better downside protection if the price of platinum falls.
Spot price would have fetched you $3182 on the platinum for melt. Which when platinum was at $2200, that is what many people were apparently doing.
We are not far off from that price and it will be intersesting to see what happens if we reach it again.
I sure would like to see the 2006-W and 2008-W Plats take off; but alas, they remain stuck close to spot.
Or maybe, this is good for the Plats, and comparing them to the mercurial rise of the Gold Buffs isn't realistic??
I do know that my 2006-W Plats were hot once, many days ago......
Miles
I just see this as additional confirmation of the weakness of the platinum market. Don't get me wrong, a seller of this set (assuming purchased in Oct. -Nov. 2008) made a nice profit; something over 50% after fees and costs. But a lot of that gain can be attributed to platinum spot going from $900 to $1700/ounce since then. Spread the $1000 over melt this set bought, and we're looking at something in the range of $200-300 over spot per coin; not terrible but certainly nothing compared to the 08w buff golds. If we see platinum spot back at $2000+, maybe it will reignite the market, the same way that some stocks take off only after the price goes up (people like to chase a winner). Personally, I think we'll just see some of the biggest holders sell their hoards. In the long run, that could be a good thing for the platinum w-uncs, esp if more is taken out of the numismatic market. Mintages aren't big to begin with, and surviving pops aren't going anywhere but down from there. Again, the only thing that matters to platinums from a numismatic sense is the size of the collector base; right now everything is going for them except that. Either we'll get more collectors or lose more coins, but eventually the supply and demand curves will cross.
I plan to go to safe deposit box next week and start setting aside my slabbed PR/MS69s and any obvious lower grade coins so I'll be ready.
I'm about 10% away from my trigger price.($1900)
Before selling I intend to pull coins from slabs/capsules and put a small mark/dent/scratch on edge so if they don't go to smelter they won't get reslabbed.
Well...as I mentioned previously, a couple of weeks back I cashed out three 1997 Plat Proof sets, and then turned right around and bought the 2006 & 2007 Burnished Unc. Sets slabbed in MS70, plus a Proof 70 2009 Buffalo gold.
I also think the scarcer sets will hold their value better when sanity returns.
<< <i>Speaking of accelerated values on some gold coins - take this Proof-Like UHR for instance.
Anyone know the initial cost from MCM or other dealers when this first surfaced??
Miles >>
I've not been following the proof like UHRs. Is this an anomoly or have they been going up? Last I checked - when I first heard about the PL designation - the premium was not that much.
BTW, I was able to compare a PL and a non-pl at one of the Balto. shows side-by-side. Not that it means anything, but for the life of me I could not tell the difference.
I was just looking through ebay. All this stuff is moving right along but we have not seen anything yet. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the rare "w" material and proof plats to reach maturity.
I would like to see the small denomination (tenth) keys close to 1.5-2 grand The quarters close to 3 grand The best halves at 4 grand And strong one once issues at 5 grand.... Thats gold and platinum in all forms.
Miles, that $5,133.00 figure scorches the previous high by $1,300. Thanks for the link.
To those who are inclined to liquidate some of their Regular Unc Plats - tell me, specifically - what are you going to roll the money into, that you think is going to do so much better than the Plats you plan on selling? Just askin'.......
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Here is a 2008-W Unc. Gold Set to keep an eye on as I see BST members are offering
greater amounts for this low mintage set and as with many 2008 Mint issues, the prices continue to accelerate!
Miles >>
This set will be very hard to come by years down the road. The rising prices of its individual pieces will break up more and more of these sets while it is already the lowest production 4 coin gold set by a good margin. By the way did anyone notice that 2011 Redbook finally put in mintages for all '06-'08 W material. Of course they failed to include any coins included in sets which skews the picture LOL. The '08-w unc $25 AGE should soar even higher now that redbook sez its the low mintage king haha
OK...for all fellow plat eagle collectors who believe these sets will appreciate significantly in coming years, I currently own the 2006 & 2007 burnished W Unc sets...all coins slabbed in MS-70. I also own a couple of the raw 2008 Unc sets.
As for the proofs, I own the 2008 Set, but not the 2006 & 2007 sets.
Now here's my question: how are the 2006 & 2007 proof sets likely to perform in the future? Or will I be a happy camper just owning the Unc 2006-2008 plat sets?!?
OK...for all fellow plat eagle collectors who believe these sets will appreciate significantly in coming years, I currently own the 2006 & 2007 burnished W Unc sets...all coins slabbed in MS-70. I also own a couple of the raw 2008 Unc sets.
As for the proofs, I own the 2008 Set, but not the 2006 & 2007 sets.
Now here's my question: how are the 2006 & 2007 proof sets likely to perform in the future? Or will I be a happy camper just owning the Unc 2006-2008 plat sets?!?
Thoughts? Opinions?
.......................................................................................................... You are the only one who knows what will make you happy.
Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??
Answer those questions first.
All of these coins will continue to be available for years and years to come............only question will be price.
<<You are the only one who knows what will make you happy.>>
<<Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??>>
With only limited resources to deploy, I'm interested in which coins may have the greatest apreciation potential over the long haul...so when I drop dead my good for nothing kids will make a maximum killing...
But at least I'll enjoy them for as long as I'm here!
<< <i><<You are the only one who knows what will make you happy.>>
<<Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??>>
With only limited resources to deploy, I'm interested in which coins may have the greatest apreciation potential over the long haul...so when I drop dead my good for nothing kids will make a maximum killing...
But at least I'll enjoy them for as long as I'm here!
How that for clarification?
>>
................................................................... With that clarification I'd suggest you sell them all now and invest money in furthering your kids education least you die with valuable coins only to have your good for nothing kids then sell for spot or less.
The platinum coins as collectibles have been (and still are) longer term plays. Without the strong demand (currently), the platinum coins could obviously not compete with the short-term price rise of coins such as proof buffalo gold. Don't get me wrong, the fresh raw platinum coins have performed rather nicely, but, most of that rise can be linked to a metal price that has risen 80+% over the past 18 months. And, indeed, the rising metal price in the future (if that even happens) could be linked to much of the future rise in these coins for a while. These are LONG-TERM coins. Even Eric J. speaks of 10-20 year holding periods. Not that "day trading" couldn't be rewarding, especially if platinum rises sharply as a metal... but, true collectors should probably have a much longer time horizon before they may truly see these coins "collected" by the masses. And, let's not forget the high risk involved should platinum "crash" as a metal as it did less than 2 years ago. If one "needed the money", those would have been very ugly times.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Whereas the 2008-W Gold Buffs have appreciated nearly without the help of a steeply rising metal, the Plats have remained more closely tied to the spot price.
Yet, the Plats still enjoy a premium over spot; granted, not in the neighborhood of the "Beachfront Property" Buffs, but not too shabby compared to others like the Spouses.
I see even the Gold Proofs Sets are seeing a return to previous pricing before the noted "two large dealers took vacations and remodeled their office"....... And as a sign of the growing perceived value of the 2008-W AGE Unc I see ebayer's are increasing attaching only Buy It Now pricing to the
Now here's my question: how are the 2006 & 2007 proof sets likely to perform in the future? Or will I be a happy camper just owning the Unc 2006-2008 plat sets?!?
Thoughts? Opinions?
If you are trying to decide to sell something, my feeling is that you can let the 06 and 07 platinum proof sets go without losing any sleep.
They aren't the low mintage for the platinum proofs, and absent an influx of new collector interest (for which I don't see any trigger), they probably aren't going to do any better than spot anytime soon.
The only plats I am holding with hopes for the future are the 2006 & 2008 w uncs and 2004 & 2008 proofs. It's possible that the other years will gain traction at some point if we can determine surviving population, but there are easier ways to make $$ than to wait for a disinterested market to see things your way.
Even with the plats I'm holding, it's largely because I'm just too stubborn to give up on coins with such low mintages. I saw an 06w unc $25 sold on ebay the other day for $495 w free registered shipping. Link Seriously, that's some sick stuff.
<< <i>The way it looks now, coin collectors have no interest in platinum coins.
And with the cost of the raw material I dont see anyone jumping in to the platinum coin market any time soon.
I think I will be selling my 2008-W fractional plats, both PF and Unc.
It was my bet in 2008 that the plats would be at least as lucrative as the the gold buffs, I was way wrong.
I will be keeping the gold bufs for a very long time. >>
I also agree. I am not sure i can mark my plats & send them to the smelter
Singapore & Hong Kong March/April Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838 MACAU emgworldwide@gmail.com Cell: 512.808.3197 EMERGING MARKET GROUP PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
Please send them off to the smelter, which will make my holdings much more valuable.
Come'on guys.....you must be joking. The 08w plats are the RAREST MODERNS out there. PERIOD.
I love the Buffalo's too and hold quite a few. Currently the market for Buff's is stalled at super high levels (I can see most of you coming at me with torches right now!!!) But that's the truth. Stalled. Inflated way beyond 3-5 year maturity levels within 2 years. The market will just not sustain those prices.
Like many of us on here have said before - ANY movement toward those 08w plats with mintages in the 2,500 level will force prices up 3x current levels.
I may be the only one.... but I am skeptical that the 2008 gold Buffs will retreat much from the levels they are at. A very desirable short set of fractionals that may never be offered by the Mint again (and if they are, I'm sure the mintages will be much more). There may be some speculative buying (the greater fool theory) driving up the prices to this point, but I suspect the sets are being set aside to remain off the market. But don't take my word for it... if I were able to predict the future with any accuracy, why am I still working for living? ....lol
"Even with the plats I'm holding, it's largely because I'm just too stubborn to give up on coins with such low mintages. I saw an 06w unc $25 sold on ebay the other day for $495 w free registered shipping. Link Seriously, that's some sick stuff. "
Yikes, I agree. that price is way low for the 06, I'm sorry I missed it at that range as I am a buyer of the 06 W unc MS69 at $495. I would hold it for 10 to 20 years should I live that long!!
Maybe the market is not seeing the plats as type coins but as regular date and mintmark coins and if you own one plat you own them all. There has to be a reason for the low prices.
The best hope is for people to see published mintages and then demand will pick up, also I think many coins are still owned by flippers, especially the 2008 coins. Until those are flipped out prices may not advance until real demand controls the supply.
The theory on the gold buffalo fractionals dropping if they made more doesn't make sense as they made more of the 1 ounce coins already and the 2008 proof and w unc go for high multiples. Also I doubt the mint makes any more fractionals anyways as they went through 2 to 3 times the numbers of blanks to make 1 coin, so lots of waste [remember the FOIA?]. That is not efficient for the mint and they aren't even doing the proof gold eagles in any size.
So anyone waiting for gold buffalo coin prices to drop good luck. Prices have still continued higher and people aren't selling, if you sell can you buy back in? Some sold at much lower prices and already regret it secretly, chances are those prices never happen again.
<< <i>Please send them off to the smelter, which will make my holdings much more valuable.
Come'on guys.....you must be joking. The 08w plats are the RAREST MODERNS out there. PERIOD.
I love the Buffalo's too and hold quite a few. Currently the market for Buff's is stalled at super high levels (I can see most of you coming at me with torches right now!!!) But that's the truth. Stalled. Inflated way beyond 3-5 year maturity levels within 2 years. The market will just not sustain those prices.
Like many of us on here have said before - ANY movement toward those 08w plats with mintages in the 2,500 level will force prices up 3x current levels. >>
Would somebody please explain to me why it's supposed to be desirable to mark or deface precious metal coins being sold for smelting, and thereby preclude any of the coins from being somehow salvaged for collectors along the way? What would be wrong with some of the coins being rescued from the cauldron? Aren't most of the smeltees likely to be inferior examples anway, so high grade populations will be unaffected? Is the seller thinking to benefit from a lower eventual total population, and if so, how? And a related question: when selling for smelt, is it the expectation to get full spot price?
The recent 2008-W Buffalo price spike is modest compared to some previous ones.
In 1986, the uncirculated $5 Statue of Liberty gold, mintage 95K, peaked at about $700 (or $1400 in today's dollars). In the mid-1980s, the proof 1984-P $10 Olympic gold, mintage 33K, peaked at about $1000 (or $2100 in today's dollars). In 1980, common date BU Walking Liberty halves peaked at around $200 each (or $525 in today's dollars). In 1979, proof 1973-S silver Ike dollars, mintage 1 million, peaked at around $150 each (or $450 in today's dollars). In 1964, uncirculated 1950-D nickels, mintage 2.6 million, peaked at around $30 each (or $210 in today's dollars).
Considering the much lower mintages, if today's Buffalo prices constitute a bubble, it's not a very big one compared to some in the past.
Would somebody please explain to me why it's supposed to be desirable to mark or deface precious metal coins being sold for smelting, and thereby preclude any of the coins from being somehow salvaged for collectors along the way? What would be wrong with some of the coins being rescued from the cauldron? Aren't most of the smeltees likely to be inferior examples anway, so high grade populations will be unaffected? Is the seller thinking to benefit from a lower eventual total population, and if so, how? And a related question: when selling for smelt, is it the expectation to get full spot price?
When platinum peaked above $2000/ounce, only the lowest mintage platinums (for the most part, 06w unc $10s $25s $50s, 2004 proofs and slabbed 70s) maintained a premium above melt. Even 2006w unc $100 raw or MS69s were selling at melt value. Since there wasn't a numismatic premium for the rest, some sellers would mar the surface of raw coins in a way that would lower the grade below 69, which for now is really the lowest acceptable grade for a collector of modern platinum. Most coins sold at melt value weren't necessarily inferior examples, they were just coins that didn't have a numismatic premium with bullion over $2000. Many of those coins probably weren't even melted, but they won't have value above melt while the supply of 69+ graded coins is sufficient to meet the collector demand. Assuming the seller kept some coins, the anticipated benefit was to effectively remove those coins from the collector market and eventually result in better premiums for the remaining population of high grade coins.
On the related question, it depends on the metal, quantity, and the person being sold to. On ebay, when a coin doesn't bring much over spot, we tend to think of it being sold for melt. If you were to sell to a bullion dealer, or walk into a pawnshop or one of those cash-for-gold stores to sell for melt, you would expect to get something under spot because their profit is made on the spread. For most of us, spot just sets a point for negotiating an acceptable price.
Maybe the market is not seeing the plats as type coins but as regular date and mintmark coins and if you own one plat you own them all. There has to be a reason for the low prices.
The best hope is for people to see published mintages and then demand will pick up, also I think many coins are still owned by flippers, especially the 2008 coins. Until those are flipped out prices may not advance until real demand controls the supply.
The market isn't seeing the plats as type coins; if that were the case there would be no premium for the lower mintage coins. To some extent, though, with 4 denominations per year they might be viewed as type coins within a given year; 4 denominations muddies the water for collectors, and forces us to try to have one of each denomination, which is cost prohibitive, or just focus on one denomination, which is more affordable but perhaps less fulfilling.
The reason for the low prices is low demand. The plats are not on the average collector's radar. For those collectors who are aware of them, many just aren't excited by expensive silver-looking modern bullion coins. It's frustrating to those of us who enjoy them, but we need to remember that if the market had cared, we would have never had such low mintages to begin with.
On the 2008 coins, I agree that many coins are still owned by flippers, though once you buy and hold, you sort of change from a flipper to a hoarder. I don't think those folks are holding prices down, though. If anything, the supply of 2008s is actually artificially low because some large holders aren't selling at current prices, and current demand is still not enough to drive up the price. In the long run, the hoards will dissipate, as bullion increases, or those with hoards give up on the market, or collector demand increases. Platinum coins might benefit from better p.r., but without a good supply to hawk to the masses, we're not going to see them on TV or backed by many of the big dealers. Eric's book should help spread the word a little. If the redbook ever gets the platinums right, that will also help.
<< <i>The market isn't seeing the plats as type coins; if that were the case there would be no premium for the lower mintage coins. >>
Then there's no such thing as a type coin. Said another way, even pure type coins have their value affected by relative rarity.
The point being there is really no such thing as a pure type coin (or at least I can't think of one) if you define it as a coin that has no rarity-related value.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Just like we have seen with several other issues over the years, the Buffalo coins have peaked as well. TULIP BULBS anyone?
FS coins have broken through the stratosphere and anyone paying those prices will be extremely disappointed in the years to come (it will take a huge miracle to equal today's rediculous prices once FS coins drop 50% or more in price)
Coins that blow past their 3-5 year maturity levels in the first 2 years post release ALWAYS decrease in price, sometimes rather quickly.
You are dealing with an enormously popular design, but only a few true rarities. Which ones? Pick One? OK.
The 1 oz UNC Buff $50. Hands down.
Regardless of what the mint may say about not producing Buffalo fractionals any longer.........I would bet my life on that one.
If they do - "they'll mint the sh&t out of them"....TRUE.....but that takes potential buyers of the 08W's away, the buyers that just "want an example" of the type. That will hurt prices.
I laugh VERY LOUDLY at anyone paying $16-$18K for a PR70DCAM set of PRF BUFFS. When this all falls apart, they will be begging to get $6-$8K for the set.
I agree with you about paying foolish money for the whole FS kool aid thing but I seem to recall you had a slightly different tune several hundred posts back when you were trumpting having a 2008-w plat burnished FIRST STRIKE MS70 set.
Have you sold your FS set??
The rest has been discussed ad nauseum.............
<< Regardless of what the mint may say about not producing Buffalo fractionals any longer.........I would bet my life on that one. If they do - "they'll mint the sh&t out of them"....TRUE.....but that takes potential buyers of the 08W's away, the buyers that just "want an example" of the type. That will hurt prices. >>
The rapidly rising price of the 2008-W $10 uncirculated Gold Eagle (hardly a "type" coin) would appear to show otherwise.
Set collecting is still a powerful force, and if the fractional buff series is resumed, the 2008-W examples will likely be the keys to the set.
Whatever you think of that 08-w PLAT UNC FS set, there are only 32 of them, multiples less than the 08-w Buff Prf Gold Sets.
As for the 08-W $10 1/4 oz GAE, it appeals to date/mm collectors as it is the key to the series........fairly narrow market at this time, the only place you'll secure those $$ is on the 'bay, you'll never see anywhere near those numbers on a wholesale buy basis......other than from one or two market makers for about 1/2 of ebay BIN pricing at the moment.
The point is that the FS Buffalo's are way, way , waaaaaayy overpriced. So are the non-FS coins, but not to the extent of FS coins.
Like it or not, FS coins will always have some premium because they are accepted as "something special" by the collecting public, whether we agree with that assumption or not.
So, do FS coins carry some premium over non-FS coins......YES.....in most cases.
I am not trashing the set or it's FS designation, I am pointing out is is overpriced.
I do have an opinion of what to do with proceeds from the sale of overpriced FS PR70DCAM Buff Gold Sets........if you like the Buffaloes....buy as many $50 UNCs as you can with the proceeds.....RAW....they are the definite keeper of the series......if you dont want to agree with me....
7/8 the raw gold buffalos are not way overpriced, the $5 goes for $500 to $650 which is chump change to gold collectors. The 1/4 is up to $1500 + which is still not a lot for under 10,000 mintage. I remember you w-a-r-n-i-n-g me to sell back when they were under $1200 and saying they were overpriced then.
Based on that you think they are worth less that $1200 for a mintage under 10,000? A one year gold coin with the most popular design?
The thing is the 1/4's are closing in on the 1/2 coins now, it must be the buffalo nickle collectors piling on and there are many more of those that probably want to buy.
If overseas buyers start wanting these then it will get even worse, some foreign gold is starting to climb now but nevermind, i won't bore you about that.
1/4's at $1200 are overpriced. They are extremely overpriced at $1500. My position has not changed.
Dealer buy is nowhere near those prices. IMO, the coin is correctly priced at around $900.
We are not talking overpriced for the L O N G term. Under 10,000 is attractive for the 1/4 oz coin, as long as the mint does not start to produce these fractionals again.
Producing fractionals again would dilute your demand for the coin, while it is scarce at under 10,000; it is not rare. Individuals seeking a type coin would buy newly minted fractionals, even though mintages would be much higher, they would be cheaper.
Why deface precious metal coins being sold for melting, and thereby preclude any of the coins from being somehow salvaged for collectors along the way? When selling for melt, is it the expectation to get full spot price?
Assuming the seller kept some coins, the anticipated benefit was to effectively remove those coins from the collector market and eventually result in better premiums for the remaining population of high grade coins. On the related question, it depends on the metal, quantity, and the person being sold to. For most of us, spot just sets a point for negotiating an acceptable price.Text
NYCounsel: Many thanks for the thoughtful response! Thus the only rationale for marring coin surfaces when selling for melt is that the seller has retained a substantial reserve holding of similar coins? Otherwise, might it be disadvantageous? Wouldn't you expect to get even a slight additional amount from a buyer if the coins are undamaged, because the buyer or someone else in the chain of custody en route to the melting pots might wish to rescue a coin, whether or not for conscious numismatic reasons?
Comments
<< <i>Is the 2008 gold Buffalo market cooling...or just resting? "Only" $6,350 for a raw 4-coin proof set last night:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110513087674&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Or was this just a fluke/bargain caused by an auction ending late on a weekday afternoon??? >>
Not too much cooling if judging by the $9156 which an NGC PF70 ER Buff set sold for on the 6th!!! HOLY COW! This beat out a recent sale of a PCGS (non-FS) PR70DCAM set near the same time. $10K is comming for the NGC ER sets....just unreal.
2008-W platinum burnished 4 coin set just over 4K
http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-W-American-Eagle-Platinum-burnished-UNC-set-box_W0QQitemZ180489760368QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_Bullion?hash=item2a06072e70
Spot price would have fetched you $3182 on the platinum for melt. Which when platinum was at $2200, that is what many people were apparently doing.
We are not far off from that price and it will be intersesting to see what happens if we reach it again.
I sure would like to see the 2006-W and 2008-W Plats take off; but alas, they remain stuck close to spot.
Or maybe, this is good for the Plats, and comparing them to the mercurial rise of the Gold Buffs isn't realistic??
I do know that my 2006-W Plats were hot once, many days ago......
Miles
If the price of platinum keeps rising, a 1997 bullion plat, bought at the current price, could wind up outperforming a 2008-W proof plat bought at the current price.
On the other hand, I think a scarce date would offer better downside protection if the price of platinum falls.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Spot price would have fetched you $3182 on the platinum for melt. Which when platinum was at $2200, that is what many people were apparently doing.
We are not far off from that price and it will be intersesting to see what happens if we reach it again.
I sure would like to see the 2006-W and 2008-W Plats take off; but alas, they remain stuck close to spot.
Or maybe, this is good for the Plats, and comparing them to the mercurial rise of the Gold Buffs isn't realistic??
I do know that my 2006-W Plats were hot once, many days ago......
Miles
I just see this as additional confirmation of the weakness of the platinum market. Don't get me wrong, a seller of this set (assuming purchased in Oct. -Nov. 2008) made a nice profit; something over 50% after fees and costs. But a lot of that gain can be attributed to platinum spot going from $900 to $1700/ounce since then. Spread the $1000 over melt this set bought, and we're looking at something in the range of $200-300 over spot per coin; not terrible but certainly nothing compared to the 08w buff golds. If we see platinum spot back at $2000+, maybe it will reignite the market, the same way that some stocks take off only after the price goes up (people like to chase a winner). Personally, I think we'll just see some of the biggest holders sell their hoards. In the long run, that could be a good thing for the platinum w-uncs, esp if more is taken out of the numismatic market. Mintages aren't big to begin with, and surviving pops aren't going anywhere but down from there. Again, the only thing that matters to platinums from a numismatic sense is the size of the collector base; right now everything is going for them except that. Either we'll get more collectors or lose more coins, but eventually the supply and demand curves will cross.
<< <i>So, anyone selling their common date plat eagles yet??? >>
.......................................................................................................................................................
I plan to go to safe deposit box next week and start setting aside my slabbed PR/MS69s and any obvious lower grade coins so I'll be ready.
I'm about 10% away from my trigger price.($1900)
Before selling I intend to pull coins from slabs/capsules and put a small mark/dent/scratch on edge so if they don't go to smelter they won't get reslabbed.
Well...as I mentioned previously, a couple of weeks back I cashed out three 1997 Plat Proof sets, and then turned right around and bought the 2006 & 2007 Burnished Unc. Sets slabbed in MS70, plus a Proof 70 2009 Buffalo gold.
I also think the scarcer sets will hold their value better when sanity returns.
greater amounts for this low mintage set and as with many 2008 Mint issues, the prices continue to accelerate!
Miles
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120553162265&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&autorefresh=true
<< <i>2008-w burnished 1/4th gold.....NGC ms70 $1350
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120553162265&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&autorefresh=true >>
The 1/4 AGE you found helps put the pricing on the 1/4 Buffalo in perspective (now over $2000 in some auctions).....
Miles
Anyone know the initial cost from MCM or other dealers when this first surfaced??
Miles
<< <i>Speaking of accelerated values on some gold coins - take this Proof-Like UHR for instance.
Anyone know the initial cost from MCM or other dealers when this first surfaced??
Miles >>
I've not been following the proof like UHRs. Is this an anomoly or have they been going up? Last I checked - when I first heard about the PL designation - the premium was not that much.
BTW, I was able to compare a PL and a non-pl at one of the Balto. shows side-by-side. Not that it means anything, but for the life of me I could not tell the difference.
I would like to see the small denomination (tenth) keys close to 1.5-2 grand
The quarters close to 3 grand
The best halves at 4 grand
And strong one once issues at 5 grand....
Thats gold and platinum in all forms.
Wouldn't that be nice!
Eric
To those who are inclined to liquidate some of their Regular Unc Plats - tell me, specifically - what are you going to roll the money into, that you think is going to do so much better than the Plats you plan on selling? Just askin'.......
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Here is a 2008-W Unc. Gold Set to keep an eye on as I see BST members are offering
greater amounts for this low mintage set and as with many 2008 Mint issues, the prices continue to accelerate!
Miles >>
This set will be very hard to come by years down the road. The rising prices of its individual pieces will break up more and more of these sets while it is already the lowest production 4 coin gold set by a good margin.
By the way did anyone notice that 2011 Redbook finally put in mintages for all '06-'08 W material. Of course they failed to include any coins included in sets which skews the picture LOL. The '08-w unc $25 AGE should soar even higher now that redbook sez its the low mintage king haha
OK...for all fellow plat eagle collectors who believe these sets will appreciate significantly in coming years, I currently own the 2006 & 2007 burnished W Unc sets...all coins slabbed in MS-70. I also own a couple of the raw 2008 Unc sets.
As for the proofs, I own the 2008 Set, but not the 2006 & 2007 sets.
Now here's my question: how are the 2006 & 2007 proof sets likely to perform in the future? Or will I be a happy camper just owning the Unc 2006-2008 plat sets?!?
Thoughts? Opinions?
And with the cost of the raw material I dont see anyone jumping in to the platinum coin market any time soon.
I think I will be selling my 2008-W fractional plats, both PF and Unc.
It was my bet in 2008 that the plats would be at least as lucrative as the the gold buffs, I was way wrong.
I will be keeping the gold bufs for a very long time.
As for the proofs, I own the 2008 Set, but not the 2006 & 2007 sets.
Now here's my question: how are the 2006 & 2007 proof sets likely to perform in the future? Or will I be a happy camper just owning the Unc 2006-2008 plat sets?!?
Thoughts? Opinions?
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You are the only one who knows what will make you happy.
Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??
Answer those questions first.
All of these coins will continue to be available for years and years to come............only question will be price.
<<Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??>>
With only limited resources to deploy, I'm interested in which coins may have the greatest apreciation potential over the long haul...so when I drop dead my good for nothing kids will make a maximum killing...
But at least I'll enjoy them for as long as I'm here!
How that for clarification?
<< <i><<You are the only one who knows what will make you happy.>>
<<Is your happiness from the joy of collecting and owning the coins or does your happiness depend on their relative financial performance??>>
With only limited resources to deploy, I'm interested in which coins may have the greatest apreciation potential over the long haul...so when I drop dead my good for nothing kids will make a maximum killing...
But at least I'll enjoy them for as long as I'm here!
How that for clarification?
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With that clarification I'd suggest you sell them all now and invest money in furthering your kids education least you die with valuable coins only to have your good for nothing kids then sell for spot or less.
The platinum coins as collectibles have been (and still are) longer term plays. Without the strong demand (currently), the platinum coins could obviously not compete with the short-term price rise of coins such as proof buffalo gold. Don't get me wrong, the fresh raw platinum coins have performed rather nicely, but, most of that rise can be linked to a metal price that has risen 80+% over the past 18 months. And, indeed, the rising metal price in the future (if that even happens) could be linked to much of the future rise in these coins for a while. These are LONG-TERM coins. Even Eric J. speaks of 10-20 year holding periods. Not that "day trading" couldn't be rewarding, especially if platinum rises sharply as a metal... but, true collectors should probably have a much longer time horizon before they may truly see these coins "collected" by the masses. And, let's not forget the high risk involved should platinum "crash" as a metal as it did less than 2 years ago. If one "needed the money", those would have been very ugly times.
Wondercoin
Whereas the 2008-W Gold Buffs have appreciated nearly without the help of a steeply rising metal, the Plats have remained more closely tied to the spot price.
Yet, the Plats still enjoy a premium over spot; granted, not in the neighborhood of the "Beachfront Property" Buffs, but not too shabby compared to others like the Spouses.
I see even the Gold Proofs Sets are seeing a return to previous pricing before the noted "two large dealers took vacations and remodeled their office".......
And as a sign of the growing perceived value of the 2008-W AGE Unc I see ebayer's are increasing attaching only Buy It Now pricing to the
Fractionals & Sets
Miles
Thoughts? Opinions?
If you are trying to decide to sell something, my feeling is that you can let the 06 and 07 platinum proof sets go without losing any sleep.
They aren't the low mintage for the platinum proofs, and absent an influx of new collector interest (for which I don't see any trigger), they probably aren't going to do any better than spot anytime soon.
The only plats I am holding with hopes for the future are the 2006 & 2008 w uncs and 2004 & 2008 proofs. It's possible that the other years will gain traction at some point if we can determine surviving population, but there are easier ways to make $$ than to wait for a disinterested market to see things your way.
Even with the plats I'm holding, it's largely because I'm just too stubborn to give up on coins with such low mintages. I saw an 06w unc $25 sold on ebay the other day for $495 w free registered shipping. Link Seriously, that's some sick stuff.
<< <i>The way it looks now, coin collectors have no interest in platinum coins.
And with the cost of the raw material I dont see anyone jumping in to the platinum coin market any time soon.
I think I will be selling my 2008-W fractional plats, both PF and Unc.
It was my bet in 2008 that the plats would be at least as lucrative as the the gold buffs, I was way wrong.
I will be keeping the gold bufs for a very long time. >>
I also agree. I am not sure i can mark my plats & send them to the smelter
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Come'on guys.....you must be joking. The 08w plats are the RAREST MODERNS out there. PERIOD.
I love the Buffalo's too and hold quite a few. Currently the market for Buff's is stalled at super high levels (I can see most of you coming at me with torches right now!!!) But that's the truth. Stalled. Inflated way beyond 3-5 year maturity levels within 2 years. The market will just not sustain those prices.
Like many of us on here have said before - ANY movement toward those 08w plats with mintages in the 2,500 level will force prices up 3x current levels.
Yikes, I agree. that price is way low for the 06, I'm sorry I missed it at that range as I am a buyer of the 06 W unc MS69 at $495. I would hold it for 10 to 20 years should I live that long!!
The best hope is for people to see published mintages and then demand will pick up, also I think many coins are still owned by flippers, especially the 2008 coins. Until those are flipped out prices may not advance until real demand controls the supply.
The theory on the gold buffalo fractionals dropping if they made more doesn't make sense as they made more of the 1 ounce coins already and the 2008 proof and w unc go for high multiples. Also I doubt the mint makes any more fractionals anyways as they went through 2 to 3 times the numbers of blanks to make 1 coin, so lots of waste [remember the FOIA?]. That is not efficient for the mint and they aren't even doing the proof gold eagles in any size.
So anyone waiting for gold buffalo coin prices to drop good luck. Prices have still continued higher and people aren't selling, if you sell can you buy back in? Some sold at much lower prices and already regret it secretly, chances are those prices never happen again.
<< <i>Please send them off to the smelter, which will make my holdings much more valuable.
Come'on guys.....you must be joking. The 08w plats are the RAREST MODERNS out there. PERIOD.
I love the Buffalo's too and hold quite a few. Currently the market for Buff's is stalled at super high levels (I can see most of you coming at me with torches right now!!!) But that's the truth. Stalled. Inflated way beyond 3-5 year maturity levels within 2 years. The market will just not sustain those prices.
Like many of us on here have said before - ANY movement toward those 08w plats with mintages in the 2,500 level will force prices up 3x current levels. >>
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I don't believe anyone is seriously considering selling 2008-W platinum proofs or Unc.
Most of selling talk is centered on 2005-2007
And a related question: when selling for smelt, is it the expectation to get full spot price?
In 1986, the uncirculated $5 Statue of Liberty gold, mintage 95K, peaked at about $700 (or $1400 in today's dollars).
In the mid-1980s, the proof 1984-P $10 Olympic gold, mintage 33K, peaked at about $1000 (or $2100 in today's dollars).
In 1980, common date BU Walking Liberty halves peaked at around $200 each (or $525 in today's dollars).
In 1979, proof 1973-S silver Ike dollars, mintage 1 million, peaked at around $150 each (or $450 in today's dollars).
In 1964, uncirculated 1950-D nickels, mintage 2.6 million, peaked at around $30 each (or $210 in today's dollars).
Considering the much lower mintages, if today's Buffalo prices constitute a bubble, it's not a very big one compared to some in the past.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
And a related question: when selling for smelt, is it the expectation to get full spot price?
When platinum peaked above $2000/ounce, only the lowest mintage platinums (for the most part, 06w unc $10s $25s $50s, 2004 proofs and slabbed 70s) maintained a premium above melt. Even 2006w unc $100 raw or MS69s were selling at melt value. Since there wasn't a numismatic premium for the rest, some sellers would mar the surface of raw coins in a way that would lower the grade below 69, which for now is really the lowest acceptable grade for a collector of modern platinum. Most coins sold at melt value weren't necessarily inferior examples, they were just coins that didn't have a numismatic premium with bullion over $2000. Many of those coins probably weren't even melted, but they won't have value above melt while the supply of 69+ graded coins is sufficient to meet the collector demand. Assuming the seller kept some coins, the anticipated benefit was to effectively remove those coins from the collector market and eventually result in better premiums for the remaining population of high grade coins.
On the related question, it depends on the metal, quantity, and the person being sold to. On ebay, when a coin doesn't bring much over spot, we tend to think of it being sold for melt. If you were to sell to a bullion dealer, or walk into a pawnshop or one of those cash-for-gold stores to sell for melt, you would expect to get something under spot because their profit is made on the spread. For most of us, spot just sets a point for negotiating an acceptable price.
The best hope is for people to see published mintages and then demand will pick up, also I think many coins are still owned by flippers, especially the 2008 coins. Until those are flipped out prices may not advance until real demand controls the supply.
The market isn't seeing the plats as type coins; if that were the case there would be no premium for the lower mintage coins. To some extent, though, with 4 denominations per year they might be viewed as type coins within a given year; 4 denominations muddies the water for collectors, and forces us to try to have one of each denomination, which is cost prohibitive, or just focus on one denomination, which is more affordable but perhaps less fulfilling.
The reason for the low prices is low demand. The plats are not on the average collector's radar. For those collectors who are aware of them, many just aren't excited by expensive silver-looking modern bullion coins. It's frustrating to those of us who enjoy them, but we need to remember that if the market had cared, we would have never had such low mintages to begin with.
On the 2008 coins, I agree that many coins are still owned by flippers, though once you buy and hold, you sort of change from a flipper to a hoarder. I don't think those folks are holding prices down, though. If anything, the supply of 2008s is actually artificially low because some large holders aren't selling at current prices, and current demand is still not enough to drive up the price. In the long run, the hoards will dissipate, as bullion increases, or those with hoards give up on the market, or collector demand increases. Platinum coins might benefit from better p.r., but without a good supply to hawk to the masses, we're not going to see them on TV or backed by many of the big dealers. Eric's book should help spread the word a little. If the redbook ever gets the platinums right, that will also help.
<< <i>The market isn't seeing the plats as type coins; if that were the case there would be no premium for the lower mintage coins. >>
Then there's no such thing as a type coin. Said another way, even pure type coins have their value affected by relative rarity.
The point being there is really no such thing as a pure type coin (or at least I can't think of one) if you define it as a coin that has no rarity-related value.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-W-4-Coin-Proof-Buffalo-Set-Ungraded-w-Box-COA_W0QQitemZ170468236815QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCoins_Bullion?hash=item27b0b2de0f
Most just pass over them without thinking about them at all.....
Collect what you like and if you like the platinum coins all the better for you.....
FOLKS - I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY ABOUT THIS SET - IF YOU DON'T KNOW
BY NOW MAYBE IT'S BEST TO NOT COLLECT !! : ) J.K.
Are we to assume this is "The Big One" in Moderna collecting??
Edit: Oh, and the $10 Buff proofs are doing well....and by the way, what took those incredible pictures??
Miles
FS coins have broken through the stratosphere and anyone paying those prices will be extremely disappointed in the years to come (it will take a huge miracle to equal today's rediculous prices once FS coins drop 50% or more in price)
Coins that blow past their 3-5 year maturity levels in the first 2 years post release ALWAYS decrease in price, sometimes rather quickly.
You are dealing with an enormously popular design, but only a few true rarities. Which ones? Pick One? OK.
The 1 oz UNC Buff $50. Hands down.
Regardless of what the mint may say about not producing Buffalo fractionals any longer.........I would bet my life on that one.
If they do - "they'll mint the sh&t out of them"....TRUE.....but that takes potential buyers of the 08W's away, the buyers that just "want an example" of the type. That will hurt prices.
I laugh VERY LOUDLY at anyone paying $16-$18K for a PR70DCAM set of PRF BUFFS. When this all falls apart, they will be begging to get $6-$8K for the set.
That a lot of large cap words.
I agree with you about paying foolish money for the whole FS kool aid thing but I seem to recall you had a slightly different tune several hundred posts back when you were trumpting having a 2008-w plat burnished FIRST STRIKE MS70 set.
Have you sold your FS set??
The rest has been discussed ad nauseum.............
The rapidly rising price of the 2008-W $10 uncirculated Gold Eagle (hardly a "type" coin) would appear to show otherwise.
Set collecting is still a powerful force, and if the fractional buff series is resumed, the 2008-W examples will likely be the keys to the set.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Whatever you think of that 08-w PLAT UNC FS set, there are only 32 of them, multiples less than the 08-w Buff Prf Gold Sets.
As for the 08-W $10 1/4 oz GAE, it appeals to date/mm collectors as it is the key to the series........fairly narrow market at this time, the only place you'll secure those $$ is on the 'bay, you'll never see anywhere near those numbers on a wholesale buy basis......other than from one or two market makers for about 1/2 of ebay BIN pricing at the moment.
If you really believed what you preach you'd sell the inflated FS plat MS70 set and plow proceeds into non FS 1/4 or 1/2 2008-W burnished plats.
You are taking my argument out of context,
The point is that the FS Buffalo's are way, way , waaaaaayy overpriced. So are the non-FS coins, but not to the extent of FS coins.
Like it or not, FS coins will always have some premium because they are accepted as "something special" by the collecting public, whether we agree with that assumption or not.
So, do FS coins carry some premium over non-FS coins......YES.....in most cases.
I am not trashing the set or it's FS designation, I am pointing out is is overpriced.
I do have an opinion of what to do with proceeds from the sale of overpriced FS PR70DCAM Buff Gold Sets........if you like the Buffaloes....buy as many $50 UNCs as you can with the proceeds.....RAW....they are the definite keeper of the series......if you dont want to agree with me....
ask Eric.
Based on that you think they are worth less that $1200 for a mintage under 10,000? A one year gold coin with the most popular design?
The thing is the 1/4's are closing in on the 1/2 coins now, it must be the buffalo nickle collectors piling on and there are many more of those that probably want to buy.
If overseas buyers start wanting these then it will get even worse, some foreign gold is starting to climb now but nevermind, i won't bore you about that.
Dealer buy is nowhere near those prices. IMO, the coin is correctly priced at around $900.
We are not talking overpriced for the L O N G term. Under 10,000 is attractive for the 1/4 oz coin, as long as the mint does not start to produce these fractionals again.
Producing fractionals again would dilute your demand for the coin, while it is scarce at under 10,000; it is not rare. Individuals seeking a type coin would buy newly minted fractionals, even though mintages would be much higher, they would be cheaper.
Assuming the seller kept some coins, the anticipated benefit was to effectively remove those coins from the collector market and eventually result in better premiums for the remaining population of high grade coins. On the related question, it depends on the metal, quantity, and the person being sold to. For most of us, spot just sets a point for negotiating an acceptable price.Text
NYCounsel: Many thanks for the thoughtful response! Thus the only rationale for marring coin surfaces when selling for melt is that the seller has retained a substantial reserve holding of similar coins? Otherwise, might it be disadvantageous? Wouldn't you expect to get even a slight additional amount from a buyer if the coins are undamaged, because the buyer or someone else in the chain of custody en route to the melting pots might wish to rescue a coin, whether or not for conscious numismatic reasons?