No proof one-ounce American Eagle gold or silver collector coins will be produced in 2009 by the U.S. Mint.
The bad news, cleared for release at noon Eastern Daylight time Oct. 6, doesn’t end there.
There will also be:
• No “W” mintmarked uncirculated silver American Eagle collector coins, • No proof fractional gold American Eagles, • No “W” uncirculated one-ounce gold American Eagles (the fractionals of this were killed at the end of last year), • No Uncirculated Dollar Coin Set, which would include a “W” silver American Eagle, and • No platinum American Eagle bullion coins.
But the Mint also gives as well as takes.
Perhaps the most surprising new issues coming are the probable Oct. 15 release of the 2009 gold Buffalo bullion coin and the Oct. 29 release of the proof collector version.
Fractional gold American Eagle bullion coins in tenth-ounce, quarter-ounce and half-ounce weights are scheduled tentatively for release Dec. 3.
A proof one-ounce platinum American Eagle also is scheduled tentatively for release Dec. 3. The Mint stresses the word “tentatively.”
It is still battling to supply the market with American Eagle bullion coins, which are mandated by law whereas the collector versions are not.
“Because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle gold and silver bullion coins, the United States Mint suspended production of 2009 proof and uncirculated versions of these coins,” it says.
Even though the rationing of the bullion gold and silver American Eagles ended June 15, acquiring adequate supplies of blanks has been an ongoing struggle for the Mint. In light of this, it might perhaps be surprising that the Mint would bother to produce the gold Buffalo coins this year at all.
Those with a lawyer’s eye will spot the exception in the language here: “All available 22-karat gold and silver bullion blanks are being allocated to the American Eagle gold and American Eagle silver bullion coins programs as mandated by Public Law 99-185 and Public Law 99-61, respectively.”
The one-ounce Buffalo gold bullion coins and collector coins are struck on 24-karat gold planchets.
Once again the Mint holds out the hope that the collector coins suspended this year will be returned to production, but now in 2010, as it works “diligently with current and potential blank suppliers to increase the supply of bullion coins
U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS QUARTER BAGS & ROLLS 100-coin bag (P) 3,964 1000-coin bag (P) 1,000 100-coin bag (D) 3,883 1000-coin bag (D) 1,028 Two-Roll Set (80 coin) (P&D) 18,058
AMERICAN SAMOA QUARTER BAGS & ROLLS 100-coin bag (P) 7,325 1000-coin bag (P) No Longer Available 100-coin bag (D) 7,185 1000-coin bag (D) 1,434 Two-Roll Set (80 coin) (P&D) 33,865
2009 ULTRA HIGH RELIEF GOLD COIN 97,447
2009 DC/TERRITORIES QUARTERS PROOF SET 554,955
2009 UNITED STATES MINT PROOF SET 1,158,246
2009 SILVER PROOF SETS DC/Territories Quarters Silver Proof Set (6-coin) 242,773 U.S. Mint Silver Proof Set™ (18-coin) 521,060
LOUIS BRAILLE COMMEMORATIVE SILVER DOLLAR Proof 123,556 Uncirculated 45,592 Uncirculated Easy-Open Capsule 20,648
FIRST SPOUSE GOLD COINS Martin Van Buren Proof (2008) 7,013 Martin Van Buren Uncirculated (2008) 4,001 Harrison Proof (2009) 5,736 Harrison Uncirculated (2009) 2,818 Letitia Tyler Proof (2009) 4,159 Letitia Tyler Uncirculated (2009) 2,274 Julia Tyler Proof (2009) 3,490 Julia Tyler Uncirculated (2009) 1,937 Sarah Polk Proof (2009) 2,794 Sarah Polk Uncirculated (2009) 1,453
PRESIDENTIAL COIN COVER SERIES William Henry Harrison 26,101 John Tyler 21,675
2009 DC & TERRITORIES OFFICIAL FIRST DAY COIN COVERS District of Columbia 15,925 Puerto Rico 12,338 Guam 8,483 American Samoa 5,634
I'm predicting the Anna Harrison Unc. will unseat the Loiusa Adams for lowest mintage. Sales of these are just crawling along. A handful every week. Literally... 22 last week, you could fit those in your hand.
<< <i>MikeinFL - I, for one, enjoyed reading your comments. Overall, well thought out.
Basically, I have pointed out recently that some of the very best, low mintage, platinum coins may be subject to the lowest returns in the years to come (vis a vis the base metal common coins) merely by the base metal outperforming the numismatic market - obviously a plausible scenerio. For example, take FloridaBill's most recent observations...
Assuming the 2008-W $50 Plats are now worth $1,300 per coin in MS70, that is $2,600/oz. If and when (in this hypothetical) Platinum reaches $4,000/oz (one day), let's look at what happens to an oz. of platinum vs. that low mintage coin...
The oz. of platinum jumps from $1,300/oz to $4,000/oz - an increase of more than 200%. But, that same MS70 coin needs to reach the price level of $4,000 (or $8,000/oz) to keep up. Will many of the lower mintage 1/2 oz. plat coins trade at $8,000/oz. when Platinum reaches $4,000/oz?
On the other hand, a much more limited move up in the base metal over the next 5-10 years, could see the key date coins significantly outperforming the commons.
On the other hand, if platinum crashes down to $500/oz., it is very possible that the low mintage 1/2 oz. MS70 coin maintains a numismatic value in excess of $500. So, in assessing these coins, do the low mintage coins represent a more CONSERVATIVE vehicle to diversify into compared to simply accumulating platinum metal let's say?
Obviously, no one on these boards has the definitive answer to the question whether simple platinum bullion coins will, or will not, outperform better date platinum coins over the next 5-10 years. Of course, well versed modern enthusiasts can take a position (in a book or elsewhere) as to whether they believe certain low mintage platinum coins may, indeed, outperform, other numismatic coins. But, the 'wild card" here may well be the platinum commodity market, with worldwide influences. But, of course, why stop this thread from reaching 50,000 responses while we see what happens as the platinum commodity market unfolds over the next 5-10 years (and the low mintage plats either "keep up", outperform or fall a bit short).
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin >>
... good points! The great thing about the above scenario of a huge spike in platinum price is that, either way, the holder of the coins will profit very handsomely ... via either the bullion price of their coin if platinum were to go to $5,000.00 per ounce, or if it does not, then via the coin's low-mintage numismatic premium.
It looks like the only 2009 platinum coin will be the $100 one-ounce proof.
Gold is still about $1040, so it looks likely to me that the Mint's price on the UHR and the Van Buren (non)Spouse gold will be rising later this week.
<< <i>About $800 in 1910. Another good question is how many days of labor was that for the average wage of that time? >>
... approximately 200 days of labor at $4.00 per day, although Henry Ford paid his workers 20% more ($5.00 per day), so that they could afford the very cars that they were building.
<< <i>MikeinFL - I, for one, enjoyed reading your comments. Overall, well thought out.
Basically, I have pointed out recently that some of the very best, low mintage, platinum coins may be subject to the lowest returns in the years to come (vis a vis the base metal common coins) merely by the base metal outperforming the numismatic market - obviously a plausible scenerio. For example, take FloridaBill's most recent observations...
Assuming the 2008-W $50 Plats are now worth $1,300 per coin in MS70, that is $2,600/oz. If and when (in this hypothetical) Platinum reaches $4,000/oz (one day), let's look at what happens to an oz. of platinum vs. that low mintage coin...
The oz. of platinum jumps from $1,300/oz to $4,000/oz - an increase of more than 200%. But, that same MS70 coin needs to reach the price level of $4,000 (or $8,000/oz) to keep up. Will many of the lower mintage 1/2 oz. plat coins trade at $8,000/oz. when Platinum reaches $4,000/oz?
On the other hand, a much more limited move up in the base metal over the next 5-10 years, could see the key date coins significantly outperforming the commons.
On the other hand, if platinum crashes down to $500/oz., it is very possible that the low mintage 1/2 oz. MS70 coin maintains a numismatic value in excess of $500. So, in assessing these coins, do the low mintage coins represent a more CONSERVATIVE vehicle to diversify into compared to simply accumulating platinum metal let's say?
Obviously, no one on these boards has the definitive answer to the question whether simple platinum bullion coins will, or will not, outperform better date platinum coins over the next 5-10 years. Of course, well versed modern enthusiasts can take a position (in a book or elsewhere) as to whether they believe certain low mintage platinum coins may, indeed, outperform, other numismatic coins. But, the 'wild card" here may well be the platinum commodity market, with worldwide influences. But, of course, why stop this thread from reaching 50,000 responses while we see what happens as the platinum commodity market unfolds over the next 5-10 years (and the low mintage plats either "keep up", outperform or fall a bit short).
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin,
Thanks for the kind words.
I wonder what other issues with high bullion value have to tell us about the future of plats. Perhaps something like MS 63 saints might be used as the example to project what will happen with the plats (obviously neglecting the design-variability), as certainly they've had their ups and downs over the years....
Just some food for thought...Mike (who is not nearly well-versed in the gold market to go farther down that path)
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
With no 2009 gold and silver eagle proof and "W" uncirculated coins issued, will more money seek out the 2009 Buffalo bullion and proof coins and the $100 platinum proof? Will the production of these coins be sufficient to meet demand?
Will the date discontinuity in the gold and silver eagle sets affect their popularity going forward?
Will the continuation of the $100 proof platinum eagle series increase the popularity of the set? As it stands now, the platinum one-ounce proof coin is the only proof American Eagle left standing with a continuous date run.
Will the Mint's current pricing structure affect demand for the $100 proof platinum eagle? Going by the Mint's pricing grid, it appears to me that, at the current price of platinum ($1317 per ounce), the proposed price of the proof will be about the same as the current price of common-date $100 platinum proof coins.
Edited to add link to Mint's Oct. 6 press release.
<< <i>And Mike I cant fully respond to all your "prove it" comments without up loading my study that I don't own the rights to anymore. KP has already mention that I should be careful how much material I post. Just like this material price topic. I have a whole chapter modeling how material price spikes kill key dates if the spike is extreme enough and calculate at each $1000 price level total set value and the premium collapse of the key in the section describing the "interaction of bullion and numismatic premiums". I model total set recession behavior too. >>
Thank you for the response, Eric. I guess I'll just have to wait for the book. Any idea on when it will become available? Just wondering...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
With no 2009 gold and silver eagle proof and "W" uncirculated coins issued, will more money seek out the 2009 Buffalo bullion and proof coins and the $100 platinum proof? ... >>
I was thinking the exact same thing. Too bad the Mint discontinued the fractionals as I think eagle collectors might have considered the plat fractionals. The buy-in on the one-ounce may be too steep.
It appears that they will make the 1oz plat coin this year:
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint announced today that it will offer for sale 2009 one-ounce American Buffalo Proof Gold Coins and one-ounce American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins. The release dates for these products are tentatively October 29 and December 3, 2009, respectively. In addition, the agency will release the one-ounce 2009 American Buffalo Gold Bullion Coin on October 15 and the fractional 2009 American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins-in the one-half ounce, one-quarter ounce, and one-tenth ounce weights-on December 3.
The Mint should have struck 50,000 1 ounce, 50,000 1/2 ounce, 80,000 1/4 ounce, and 50,000 1/10 ounce Buffalo proof gold coins instead of minting just one batch of say 100,000 proof Buffalo 1 ounce coin. The same goes with Platinum proof.
Let me see. The mint has fractional gold blanks for Uncirculated eagles, But no one ounce Unc. eagle blanks? They have lots of Proof gold one Ounce blanks, to make one ounce Eagles & Buffalo`s. But no gold fractional blanks for proof Halfs,Quarters, & tenths. something stinks here. my gut feeling is some of these options are being offered just to get rid of last years left over blanks.
According to the Mint's pricing grid, the price of the 2009-W Buffalo gold proof will be only slightly above the current price of the high-mintage 2006-W proof. With the potential for a low mintage, there might be a quick sellout.
The same situation exists for the 2009-W $100 proof Platinum Eagle.
That CCAC choice for the Plat proof still makes me gag. The PC theme is so, well, PC, that it destroys any desire I might have for the coin. Even knowing that it will likely be a very small mintage is not enough to make me shell out such a huge chunk out of my meager coin budget. However, the Buff proof is a distinct possibility, but it ain't gonna be cheap with the recent hockey stick rise in gold...
Moy likes "Allegory" and it’s the one coin that he says there is almost zero supervision on. Just as he went for the robed image of justice over the eagle and the owl perched together for 2008 he is likely to be the one that makes the call. I would not assume (translates despair) just yet.
Moy likes "Allegory" and it’s the one coin that he says there is almost zero supervision on. Just as he went for the robed image of justice over the eagle and the owl perched together for 2008 he is likely to be the one that makes the call. I would not assume (translates despair) just yet.
We can hope. Either of the images with the clusters of liberty women would look outstanding IMO...
<< <i>Moy likes "Allegory" and it�s the one coin that he says there is almost zero supervision on. Just as he went for the robed image of justice over the eagle and the owl perched together for 2008 he is likely to be the one that makes the call. I would not assume (translates despair) just yet.
Eric >>
I've been thinking this very same thing. Don't put much stock in the CAC approved design - the one from 2008 didn't materialize as expected. If there is a platinum issue for 2009, don't count on seeing the CAC approved artwork on it...
Eric
EAC member since 2011, one third of the way through my 1793 large cent type set
Its just wrong that the mint is not living up to the 25 year plan on the gold and silver eagle. I don't know how anyone else feels but I give my kids each an ASE proof on there birthday along with another gift. I have nothing this year. Next year is the end of the 25 year plan. Does this all mean that things are about to CHANGE. Its an OBAMANATION.
Looking back I wish I bough more of this and less of that.
Now I think just buy a bar of silver and get back to the original hobby of coin collecting.
My Platinum series has holes in it which I may never fill.
Ships are safe in harbor but thats not what ships were built for.
<< <i>Its just wrong that the mint is not living up to the 25 year plan on the gold and silver eagle. I don't know how anyone else feels but I give my kids each an ASE proof on there birthday along with another gift. I have nothing this year. Next year is the end of the 25 year plan. Does this all mean that things are about to CHANGE. Its an OBAMANATION.
Looking back I wish I bough more of this and less of that.
Now I think just buy a bar of silver and get back to the original hobby of coin collecting.
My Platinum series has holes in it which I may never fill. >>
What does Obama really have to do with the mint not issuing Proof Bullion?
We will see silver eagles proof and likely W issues next year. The closing of the changing reverse fractional platinum eagles is a blessing for those of us with limited funds. We can finish out what we lack and not have open ended large dollar out lays forced on us trying to keep up. Its 'all good".
<< <i>Anyone care to guess how many Buffalo and Platinum Proofs the Mint will mint and how long they will be for sale. >>
These are the key questions indeed! Any thoughts from the forum? >>
I don't think anyone really knows but with these being the only game in town, it seems all the money is going to fall on these guys. So, if the mint to meet demand, there is going to be a bunch out there.
So, I wonder if any "patterns" exist on the non-issue items? Hum????
According to the Mint's pricing grid, prospective prices for the Buffalo and platinum proofs are about the same as current realized prices for common date Buffalo and $100 platinum proofs.
So if mintages are low and order limits are not imposed, there could be a quick sellout for both coins.
The 2000-W uncirculated Library of Congress $10 gold/platinum commem (mintage 7261) has appreciated sharply in recent months, and has decisively overtaken the $5 Jackie Robinson uncirculated $5 gold (mintage 5174) as the most valuable modern commemorative coin.
Three of the four 1995-96 unc. Olympic gold $5 coins have likewise shown big gains. So has the 1997 FDR.
The 2008-W $25 unc. Gold Eagle is bringing a very large premium to melt, despite its relatively high mintage (due to its availability in a separate set, paired with a 2008-W unc. Buffalo $25).
What does all this say about the recession's impact on modern commems, and about future prospects for the recent low-mintage First Spouse and Platinum Eagle coins?
Not too much IMHO. It just says to me that prices can rise very sharply when certain products are "in play" by as few as -1- dealer as every coin you mentioned is right now. The sheet (which is plusing all of these specific coins) simply picks up the posted bids listed on CCE - at least that is what I have seen happen over the past couple years. These coins can continue to rise to the heavens above, or come to a screeching halt / even drop in price just as soon as these bids stop getting placed assuming that happens (there are many examples of that from previous years past). IMHO, getting overly "technical" in the analysis about these coins is not well advised. And, my comments here are in no way intended to downplay the confidence a dealer or two are showing in these specific coins - these dealer(s) selecting these particular coins are very smart guys. It is not by accident that they have targeted to pay more for a higher mintage modern coin than a lower mintage modern coin. And, I have said many times here that mintage is only one factor in pricing moderns - which is why the 1991 $25 MS gold coin still trades at a large premium to the W burnished $25 golds with far lower mintages (ditto for 2004 proof plats being worth more than 2008 proof plats). Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I spoke with the mint's public affairs office yesterday regarding the 2009 one-ounce platinum proofs. They will go on sale December 3rd, and remain on sale into (and through) 2010 until they are sold out. However, I was not able to determine a maximum mintage figure at this time.
I have a sneaky feeling that the mint has stamped out more of these 2009 buffalo gold and plats than we would like. Let's see what the buffalo bullion sales are next week.
Bet you they struck the three big coins to "anticipated demand". There was an article in Coin World by Beth D. quoting the head of the Mints marketing department indicating the number of planchets they already have for the .999 one once gold was substantial and they were working on getting more. Its been 2 more months now and we know they can run through about 50,000 of these things (mint state bulk) in about three business days. The proofs take longer but the old low for the proofs is 20,000 coins. How long do you think it will take to blow through that number? We will just have to see how the initial sales statements read.
With the 2008-W proof gold Buffalo $50 fetching $2500 and up, it will take a lot more than 20,000 coins to bring the 2009-W down to the "common date" price of $1300+.
If the 2009 proof goes on sale at $1360, the current price according to the Mint's "pricing grid," I expect that many collectors / dealers / speculators will be loading up, provided there are no order limits in place.
<< <i>I spoke with the mint's public affairs office yesterday regarding the 2009 one-ounce platinum proofs. They will go on sale December 3rd, and remain on sale into (and through) 2010 until they are sold out. However, I was not able to determine a maximum mintage figure at this time.
David >>
I am not enthusiastic of the Reverse design of the 2009 Platinum Proof, as proposed. However assuming they won't change the design, how many on this thread will purchase the coin, and the reason why? Thanks!
I don't know if I'll purchase one, since it's such a big ticket item.
As I see it, there are three reasons to purchase a 2009-W proof Platinum Eagle (none of which includes the design):
1. It will be the only U.S. platinum coin dated 2009.
2. Possible low mintage.
3. Reasonable percentage markup over bullion value. According to the Mint's pricing grid, the price of the coin will be about the same as current auction prices for common-date $100 plat proofs.
I have a complete $25 plat set in all changing reverse forms. My half changing reverse plat set is complete except for the 10ths anniversary set and 1997. I am missing all the 1997-2002 tenths. I only hold the key dates for the $100 coins. I have been trying to descide if I want to change denominations and work on the $100 issues. The problem is its going to cost almost 20 grand just to catch up and then its 1400+ every year from then on.
For now I think I am just going to work on finishing my back date closed fractional sets and then if I have the bucks the $100 issues.
Comments
Another good question is how many days of labor was that for the average wage of that time?
BTW.......Gold just hit an all time high..........
In 1910 a worker made around $2-$5/day
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
***********************************************************************************
No proof one-ounce American Eagle gold or silver collector coins will be produced in 2009 by the U.S. Mint.
The bad news, cleared for release at noon Eastern Daylight time Oct. 6, doesn’t end there.
There will also be:
• No “W” mintmarked uncirculated silver American Eagle collector coins,
• No proof fractional gold American Eagles,
• No “W” uncirculated one-ounce gold American Eagles (the fractionals of this were killed at the end of last year),
• No Uncirculated Dollar Coin Set, which would include a “W” silver American Eagle, and
• No platinum American Eagle bullion coins.
But the Mint also gives as well as takes.
Perhaps the most surprising new issues coming are the probable Oct. 15 release of the 2009 gold Buffalo bullion coin and the Oct. 29 release of the proof collector version.
Fractional gold American Eagle bullion coins in tenth-ounce, quarter-ounce and half-ounce weights are scheduled tentatively for release Dec. 3.
A proof one-ounce platinum American Eagle also is scheduled tentatively for release Dec. 3. The Mint stresses the word “tentatively.”
It is still battling to supply the market with American Eagle bullion coins, which are mandated by law whereas the collector versions are not.
“Because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle gold and silver bullion coins, the United States Mint suspended production of 2009 proof and uncirculated versions of these coins,” it says.
Even though the rationing of the bullion gold and silver American Eagles ended June 15, acquiring adequate supplies of blanks has been an ongoing struggle for the Mint. In light of this, it might perhaps be surprising that the Mint would bother to produce the gold Buffalo coins this year at all.
Those with a lawyer’s eye will spot the exception in the language here: “All available 22-karat gold and silver bullion blanks are being allocated to the American Eagle gold and American Eagle silver bullion coins programs as mandated by Public Law 99-185 and Public Law 99-61, respectively.”
The one-ounce Buffalo gold bullion coins and collector coins are struck on 24-karat gold planchets.
Once again the Mint holds out the hope that the collector coins suspended this year will be returned to production, but now in 2010, as it works “diligently with current and potential blank suppliers to increase the supply of bullion coins
linky
RE: Mint Statistics (as of 10/04/09)
U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS QUARTER BAGS & ROLLS
100-coin bag (P) 3,964
1000-coin bag (P) 1,000
100-coin bag (D) 3,883
1000-coin bag (D) 1,028
Two-Roll Set (80 coin) (P&D) 18,058
AMERICAN SAMOA QUARTER BAGS & ROLLS
100-coin bag (P) 7,325
1000-coin bag (P) No Longer Available
100-coin bag (D) 7,185
1000-coin bag (D) 1,434
Two-Roll Set (80 coin) (P&D) 33,865
2009 ULTRA HIGH RELIEF GOLD COIN 97,447
2009 DC/TERRITORIES QUARTERS PROOF SET 554,955
2009 UNITED STATES MINT PROOF SET 1,158,246
2009 SILVER PROOF SETS
DC/Territories Quarters Silver Proof Set (6-coin) 242,773
U.S. Mint Silver Proof Set™ (18-coin) 521,060
LOUIS BRAILLE COMMEMORATIVE SILVER DOLLAR
Proof 123,556
Uncirculated 45,592
Uncirculated Easy-Open Capsule 20,648
FIRST SPOUSE GOLD COINS
Martin Van Buren Proof (2008) 7,013
Martin Van Buren Uncirculated (2008) 4,001
Harrison Proof (2009) 5,736
Harrison Uncirculated (2009) 2,818
Letitia Tyler Proof (2009) 4,159
Letitia Tyler Uncirculated (2009) 2,274
Julia Tyler Proof (2009) 3,490
Julia Tyler Uncirculated (2009) 1,937
Sarah Polk Proof (2009) 2,794
Sarah Polk Uncirculated (2009) 1,453
PRESIDENTIAL COIN COVER SERIES
William Henry Harrison 26,101
John Tyler 21,675
2009 DC & TERRITORIES OFFICIAL FIRST DAY COIN COVERS
District of Columbia 15,925
Puerto Rico 12,338
Guam 8,483
American Samoa 5,634
<< <i>MikeinFL - I, for one, enjoyed reading your comments. Overall, well thought out.
Basically, I have pointed out recently that some of the very best, low mintage, platinum coins may be subject to the lowest returns in the years to come (vis a vis the base metal common coins) merely by the base metal outperforming the numismatic market - obviously a plausible scenerio. For example, take FloridaBill's most recent observations...
Assuming the 2008-W $50 Plats are now worth $1,300 per coin in MS70, that is $2,600/oz. If and when (in this hypothetical) Platinum reaches $4,000/oz (one day), let's look at what happens to an oz. of platinum vs. that low mintage coin...
The oz. of platinum jumps from $1,300/oz to $4,000/oz - an increase of more than 200%. But, that same MS70 coin needs to reach the price level of $4,000 (or $8,000/oz) to keep up. Will many of the lower mintage 1/2 oz. plat coins trade at $8,000/oz. when Platinum reaches $4,000/oz?
On the other hand, a much more limited move up in the base metal over the next 5-10 years, could see the key date coins significantly outperforming the commons.
On the other hand, if platinum crashes down to $500/oz., it is very possible that the low mintage 1/2 oz. MS70 coin maintains a numismatic value in excess of $500. So, in assessing these coins, do the low mintage coins represent a more CONSERVATIVE vehicle to diversify into compared to simply accumulating platinum metal let's say?
Obviously, no one on these boards has the definitive answer to the question whether simple platinum bullion coins will, or will not, outperform better date platinum coins over the next 5-10 years. Of course, well versed modern enthusiasts can take a position (in a book or elsewhere) as to whether they believe certain low mintage platinum coins may, indeed, outperform, other numismatic coins. But, the 'wild card" here may well be the platinum commodity market, with worldwide influences. But, of course, why stop this thread from reaching 50,000 responses while we see what happens as the platinum commodity market unfolds over the next 5-10 years (and the low mintage plats either "keep up", outperform or fall a bit short).
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin >>
... good points! The great thing about the above scenario of a huge spike in platinum price is that, either way, the holder of the coins will profit very handsomely ...
via either the bullion price of their coin if platinum were to go to $5,000.00 per ounce, or if it does not, then via the coin's low-mintage numismatic premium.
Either was, not a bad scenario!
David
It looks like the only 2009 platinum coin will be the $100 one-ounce proof.
Gold is still about $1040, so it looks likely to me that the Mint's price on the UHR and the Van Buren (non)Spouse gold will be rising later this week.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>About $800 in 1910.
Another good question is how many days of labor was that for the average wage of that time? >>
... approximately 200 days of labor at $4.00 per day, although Henry Ford paid his workers 20% more ($5.00 per day), so that they could afford the very cars
that they were building.
David
I would say about zero percent.....
The mint is so stupid cancelling the silver proof coins.....
<< <i>MikeinFL - I, for one, enjoyed reading your comments. Overall, well thought out.
Basically, I have pointed out recently that some of the very best, low mintage, platinum coins may be subject to the lowest returns in the years to come (vis a vis the base metal common coins) merely by the base metal outperforming the numismatic market - obviously a plausible scenerio. For example, take FloridaBill's most recent observations...
Assuming the 2008-W $50 Plats are now worth $1,300 per coin in MS70, that is $2,600/oz. If and when (in this hypothetical) Platinum reaches $4,000/oz (one day), let's look at what happens to an oz. of platinum vs. that low mintage coin...
The oz. of platinum jumps from $1,300/oz to $4,000/oz - an increase of more than 200%. But, that same MS70 coin needs to reach the price level of $4,000 (or $8,000/oz) to keep up. Will many of the lower mintage 1/2 oz. plat coins trade at $8,000/oz. when Platinum reaches $4,000/oz?
On the other hand, a much more limited move up in the base metal over the next 5-10 years, could see the key date coins significantly outperforming the commons.
On the other hand, if platinum crashes down to $500/oz., it is very possible that the low mintage 1/2 oz. MS70 coin maintains a numismatic value in excess of $500. So, in assessing these coins, do the low mintage coins represent a more CONSERVATIVE vehicle to diversify into compared to simply accumulating platinum metal let's say?
Obviously, no one on these boards has the definitive answer to the question whether simple platinum bullion coins will, or will not, outperform better date platinum coins over the next 5-10 years. Of course, well versed modern enthusiasts can take a position (in a book or elsewhere) as to whether they believe certain low mintage platinum coins may, indeed, outperform, other numismatic coins. But, the 'wild card" here may well be the platinum commodity market, with worldwide influences. But, of course, why stop this thread from reaching 50,000 responses while we see what happens as the platinum commodity market unfolds over the next 5-10 years (and the low mintage plats either "keep up", outperform or fall a bit short).
Just my 2 cents
Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin,
Thanks for the kind words.
I wonder what other issues with high bullion value have to tell us about the future of plats. Perhaps something like MS 63 saints might be used as the example to project what will happen with the plats (obviously neglecting the design-variability), as certainly they've had their ups and downs over the years....
Just some food for thought...Mike (who is not nearly well-versed in the gold market to go farther down that path)
With no 2009 gold and silver eagle proof and "W" uncirculated coins issued, will more money seek out the 2009 Buffalo bullion and proof coins and the $100 platinum proof? Will the production of these coins be sufficient to meet demand?
Will the date discontinuity in the gold and silver eagle sets affect their popularity going forward?
Will the continuation of the $100 proof platinum eagle series increase the popularity of the set? As it stands now, the platinum one-ounce proof coin is the only proof American Eagle left standing with a continuous date run.
Will the Mint's current pricing structure affect demand for the $100 proof platinum eagle? Going by the Mint's pricing grid, it appears to me that, at the current price of platinum ($1317 per ounce), the proposed price of the proof will be about the same as the current price of common-date $100 platinum proof coins.
Edited to add link to Mint's Oct. 6 press release.
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<< <i>And Mike I cant fully respond to all your "prove it" comments without up loading my study that I don't own the rights to anymore. KP has already mention that I should be careful how much material I post. Just like this material price topic. I have a whole chapter modeling how material price spikes kill key dates if the spike is extreme enough and calculate at each $1000 price level total set value and the premium collapse of the key in the section describing the "interaction of bullion and numismatic premiums". I model total set recession behavior too. >>
Thank you for the response, Eric. I guess I'll just have to wait for the book. Any idea on when it will become available? Just wondering...Mike
<< <i>Some questions:
With no 2009 gold and silver eagle proof and "W" uncirculated coins issued, will more money seek out the 2009 Buffalo bullion and proof coins and the $100 platinum proof? ... >>
I was thinking the exact same thing. Too bad the Mint discontinued the fractionals as I think eagle collectors might have considered the plat fractionals. The buy-in on the one-ounce may be too steep.
Doomed to a lifetime at melt and the US Mint is $30,000,000 richer.
WASHINGTON - The United States Mint announced today that it will offer for sale 2009 one-ounce American Buffalo Proof Gold Coins and one-ounce American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins. The release dates for these products are tentatively October 29 and December 3, 2009, respectively. In addition, the agency will release the one-ounce 2009 American Buffalo Gold Bullion Coin on October 15 and the fractional 2009 American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins-in the one-half ounce, one-quarter ounce, and one-tenth ounce weights-on December 3.
United States Mint to Offer 2009 American Buffalo Proof Gold and American Eagle Platinum Proof Coins
If these are the same ugly coins they showed last year I won't be a buyer. I don't collect 1 ouncers anyway.
As of now, the price looks to be about the same as the current price of common-date proof $100 Platinum Eagles.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>Here's the CCAC approved design for the 2009 proof $100 Platinum Eagle. Not sure if it will be the final design.
As of now, the price looks to be about the same as the current price of common-date proof $100 Platinum Eagles. >>
Welcome to the new politically correct US Mint.......................
They have lots of Proof gold one Ounce blanks, to make one ounce Eagles & Buffalo`s. But no gold fractional blanks for proof Halfs,Quarters, & tenths.
something stinks here. my gut feeling is some of these options are being offered just to get rid of last years left over blanks.
The same situation exists for the 2009-W $100 proof Platinum Eagle.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Eric
We can hope. Either of the images with the clusters of liberty women would look outstanding IMO...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>Moy likes "Allegory" and it�s the one coin that he says there is almost zero supervision on. Just as he went for the robed image of justice over the eagle and the owl perched together for 2008 he is likely to be the one that makes the call. I would not assume (translates despair) just yet.
Eric >>
I've been thinking this very same thing. Don't put much stock in the CAC approved design - the one from 2008 didn't materialize as expected. If there is a platinum issue for 2009, don't count on seeing the CAC approved artwork on it...
Eric
Looking back I wish I bough more of this and less of that.
Now I think just buy a bar of silver and get back to the original hobby of coin collecting.
My Platinum series has holes in it which I may never fill.
<< <i>Its just wrong that the mint is not living up to the 25 year plan on the gold and silver eagle. I don't know how anyone else feels but I give my kids each an ASE proof on there birthday along with another gift. I have nothing this year. Next year is the end of the 25 year plan. Does this all mean that things are about to CHANGE. Its an OBAMANATION.
Looking back I wish I bough more of this and less of that.
Now I think just buy a bar of silver and get back to the original hobby of coin collecting.
My Platinum series has holes in it which I may never fill. >>
What does Obama really have to do with the mint not issuing Proof Bullion?
We will see silver eagles proof and likely W issues next year. The closing of the changing reverse fractional platinum eagles is a blessing for those of us with limited funds. We can finish out what we lack and not have open ended large dollar out lays forced on us trying to keep up. Its 'all good".
<< <i>Anyone care to guess how many Buffalo and Platinum Proofs the Mint will mint and how long they will be for sale.
These are the key questions indeed! Any thoughts from the forum?
<< <i>
<< <i>Anyone care to guess how many Buffalo and Platinum Proofs the Mint will mint and how long they will be for sale.
These are the key questions indeed! Any thoughts from the forum? >>
I don't think anyone really knows but with these being the only game in town, it seems all the money is going to fall on these guys. So, if the mint to meet demand, there is going to be a bunch out there.
So, I wonder if any "patterns" exist on the non-issue items? Hum????
<< <i>If I was a betting man, which I am not, I would bet that the Mint mints way more Buffalo Proofs then Platinum. >>
I hate to see you go out on a limb like that LOL. :-)
<< <i>If I was a betting man, which I am not, I would bet that the Mint mints way more Buffalo Proofs then Platinum. >>
I am sure that is where the demand will be.
Let see, an Oct 29 release date for the Buff and a Dec 3 for the Plat. Do they stop minting them on Dec 31?
The text goes to print in March according to Debbie Bradly at KP. Sorry I didnt answer sooner it was not intentional.
Eric
So if mintages are low and order limits are not imposed, there could be a quick sellout for both coins.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
The 2000-W uncirculated Library of Congress $10 gold/platinum commem (mintage 7261) has appreciated sharply in recent months, and has decisively overtaken the $5 Jackie Robinson uncirculated $5 gold (mintage 5174) as the most valuable modern commemorative coin.
Three of the four 1995-96 unc. Olympic gold $5 coins have likewise shown big gains. So has the 1997 FDR.
The 2008-W $25 unc. Gold Eagle is bringing a very large premium to melt, despite its relatively high mintage (due to its availability in a separate set, paired with a 2008-W unc. Buffalo $25).
What does all this say about the recession's impact on modern commems, and about future prospects for the recent low-mintage First Spouse and Platinum Eagle coins?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Wondercoin
I spoke with the mint's public affairs office yesterday regarding the 2009 one-ounce platinum proofs. They will go on sale December 3rd, and remain on sale into (and through) 2010 until they are sold out. However, I was not able to determine a maximum mintage figure at this time.
David
We will just have to see how the initial sales statements read.
Eric Jordan
If the 2009 proof goes on sale at $1360, the current price according to the Mint's "pricing grid," I expect that many collectors / dealers / speculators will be loading up, provided there are no order limits in place.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>I spoke with the mint's public affairs office yesterday regarding the 2009 one-ounce platinum proofs. They will go on sale December 3rd, and remain on sale into (and through) 2010 until they are sold out. However, I was not able to determine a maximum mintage figure at this time.
David >>
I am not enthusiastic of the Reverse design of the 2009 Platinum Proof, as proposed. However assuming they won't change the design, how many on this thread will purchase the coin, and the reason why? Thanks!
Al
As I see it, there are three reasons to purchase a 2009-W proof Platinum Eagle (none of which includes the design):
1. It will be the only U.S. platinum coin dated 2009.
2. Possible low mintage.
3. Reasonable percentage markup over bullion value. According to the Mint's pricing grid, the price of the coin will be about the same as current auction prices for common-date $100 plat proofs.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
For now I think I am just going to work on finishing my back date closed fractional sets and then if I have the bucks the $100 issues.