So Ray Guy is a HOF'er because the Raiders' long snapper sucked??? (Just kidding )
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Guy was a career 42.4 average and had a 62.1% Touchback:Inside the 20 success..(128 Touchbacks, 210 Inside the 20)
Compare him with Sean Landeta...43.3 career average and had a 69.7% Touchback:Inside the 20 success..(166 Touchbacks, 381 Inside the 20)
I feel the true measure to a Punter is pin the team back to little too no returns. Punt average is the biggest filler stat in the NFL. It means nothing , but how far you can punt. So I pulled the stats for 3 or 4 of the best punters ever and gave the punters a true measure to there greatness.
Ray Guy 838 punts - 380 returned -- 45 % returned percentage no 73 , 74 or 75 . When he lead the league in punting in 74 and 75 Return avg per punt return 8.5
Sean Landeta 1401 punts - 730 returns 52% returned return avg per punt 10.48
Darrnen Bennett 836 punts -- 402 returns 48% returned return avg per punt return 10.83
Jerrell Wilson 207 punts -- 115 55 % returned Only his last 3 years return avg per punt return 11.46
Ok, here's alittle add on to these stats. NFL didn't start keeping complete Punter stats until 1976 , no ( inside the 20 , Touchbacks or Net Avg ) . So you can take Guys 3 best season's 73 , 74 & 75 his 3 year stats are not even included in the above numbers.
As alittle side note * 1985 Ray Guys 2nd to last season in the NFL , before back problems ended his career. 89 punts --- 26 returns for a crazy 29% return avg per punt 6.11 * Plus one of two guys on the 75th Anv. team not in the HOF. and I'm counting as Rod Woodson as in " he's a lock "
True snappers back then were not as refined as they are nowadays......now its a special teams kind of position. the LS trains for just that......rarely do u c a bad snap. I remember snaps going way over ray guys' head and he went back , got the ball, and was able to run for it.
dan has another good point. Distance is how a punter is ranked.....but fails to account for guys that can kick the ball that leaves our atmosphere. When ray guy punted...they would go to a commercial break...and come back to see the return ...if there was one.
He was a team guy......going for the inside the 20 sideline vs acquiring stats.
woodson is a 100% lock......yes guy deservs it also.
and andy.....good luck with ur giants
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
And those are many of the reasons Ray Guy has been a HOF finalist 7 times...Based on him making the final 15 so often, I think the voters do believe (in general) that he is HOF material. What gets him bumped every year is you have to bump other guys OUT in order to get him in...
Take the 7 years Guy has been a finalist. Here are the modern candidate players elected from those years. Who do you bump out and replace with Ray Guy?
John Mackey John Riggins Lem Barney Steve Largent Leroy Selmon Kellen Winslow Mike Haynes Mike Webster Eric Dickerson Tom Mack Lawrence Taylor Ozzie Newsome Dave Casper Dan Hampton Jim Kelly John Stallworth Michael Irvin Bruce Matthews Thurman Thomas Roger Wehrli
Every single one of those guys has as strong if not stronger case than Ray Guy. This year will be no different...I think his best shot will be in his final year of eligibility. Whoever is presenting his case can argue that the voters thought enough of Ray Guy to make him a finalist 8+ times, he would deserve to go in on his last shot before heading off to the Senior Candidate abyss. Kuechenberg will have the benefit of that argument this year. And I think he's a near lock because of it.
You never know what can happen in the meeting. Some guys go in with their minds already made up, and some go in open minded and a good presentation on that player can sway votes. It did last year for Wehrli on his last shot.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sounds like a pretty strong case going to be presented for Richard Dent:
Dent's got the goods Pitching former Bear's case for Hall of Fame is easy: His big plays drove the best defense in history, period Dan Pompei February 1, 2008
PHOENIX - As the Chicago representative on the Pro Football Hall of Fame board of selectors, I will have the responsibility of presenting the case for former Bear Richard Dent to the other 43 voters here Saturday.
Dent is one of 15 modern era finalists. After watching the large majority of the games in Dent's career, I strongly believe he should be one of the five inductees. Assuming everyone votes, he'll need 34 voters to agree with me.
It's a strong class of finalists, so I don't believe any of them is a cinch to be elected. Among the candidates for whom strong cases will be made are former Broncos linebacker Randy Gradishar, former Vikings guard Randall McDaniel, former Dolphins guard Bob Kuechenberg, former Vikings receiver Cris Carter, former Redskins receiver Art Monk, former Redskins cornerback Darrell Green, former Raiders punter Ray Guy and former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue.
And there are four pass rushers among the 15 -- which means they could cancel each other out.
So this is the case I intend to make.
Dent should not take a back seat to any of the other pass rushers. That isn't to say Derrick Thomas, Andre Tippett or Fred Dean are not worthy.
Dent, though, was the defender who made the most big plays on the best defense in history. For all the great players in the history of football, there isn't another who can make that claim.
When you compare the four pass rushers this year, you find Thomas had more honors in his career. And they were deserved honors. Thomas was arguably the greatest speed rusher ever.
Dent, however, was a complete pass rusher who found a hundred ways to get to the quarterback.
"Whatever you would give him he could take," said Bucs offensive line coach Bill Muir, who had the same position for the Lions back when Dent was playing. "He could run by you, he could be a speed rusher, he could be a counter rusher, he could run right over your [expletive]."
A thinking man's pass rusher, Dent turned games into clinics.
"His wit as a pass rusher stood out," said former 49ers left tackle Steve Wallace, who battled Dent for years.
"He was very clever. If he detected the slightest hand movement or difference in your stance, he knew without a doubt how to take advantage."
He had more career sacks than the other three finalists. Between 1984 and 1993, his peak seasons, Dent had 121.5 sacks -- more than Lawrence Taylor, who had 117, and Bruce Smith, who had 106. The only player who had more over that period was Reggie White, who had 137.
"He had great pass moves, a natural instinct to feel the openings and weaknesses and to take advantage, to exploit those opportunities," said former Packers left tackle Ken Ruettgers, a frequent opponent.
Dent's instinct was rare. Dent seemed always to know when to use which move. Former Vikings left tackle Gary Zimmerman, himself a Hall finalist, talks about how Dent would try to lull a blocker into taking it easy. All the while the blocker would think Dent was taking plays off. What Dent was doing, in fact, was setting up the chump for the kill.
"Nobody smelled blood better than he did," Zimmerman said. "If he got somebody down, he really piled it on. He was like a shark. If he sensed weakness, he took advantage of that."
Dent even had eight interceptions even though he hardly ever dropped into coverage. That's more interceptions than his Hall of Fame teammate Mike Singletary, who almost always dropped as a middle linebacker. He also had 58 passes defended -- that's a career for a good cornerback.
His ability to step up in the clutch is legendary. Dent's best games were his most important. The MVP of Super Bowl XX had six sacks in the 1985 postseason -- no player ever has had more. In 10 career playoff games, Dent had 10 1/2 sacks, four fumble recoveries and a forced fumble.
Many premier pass rushers are liabilities against the run. Dent was a weapon against the run. Coach Mike Ditka believes Dent was every bit the run defender that he was the pass defender. Over the 10 prime years of Dent's career, the Bears allowed an average of 1,573 rushing yards, lowest in the NFL.
"As a run defender, it surprised me how he would get his hands into you on the run and jam you through the chest," Wallace said. "And he read the run plays really well. You never suckered Richard Dent on a trap or anything like that. Instead of getting a 15-yard gain, he would go inside and stop it for a 2-yard loss."
See, I really don't have to make much of a case for Dent. His career will make the case for him.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Damn HP Scanner....anything at the bottom (far right edge) of it comes out blurry when scanned. I'll have to rescan that one. I hate that P.O.S. >>
Congrats on the bumps. Did the Bednarik have a stain originally?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Just my 2 cents on the Ray Guy debate going on here....I have a real problem with someone being chosen as the best player at his position in the history of the NFL (this being so designated by being a member of the 75th Anniv. team), yet not being worthy of being in the HOF. If you are chosen as the best ever at your position, you should be in the HOF. If they are going to recognize FB and return specialist on the 100th Anniv. team, I would say the same thing. It is a total disgrace that a member of the NFL's 75th Anniv. team is not in the HOF. Again, just my 2 cents...
<< <i>Just my 2 cents on the Ray Guy debate going on here....I have a real problem with someone being chosen as the best player at his position in the history of the NFL (this being so designated by being a member of the 75th Anniv. team), yet not being worthy of being in the HOF. >>
I think that's a good argument, and one I would agree with. My feeling is that many of the voters are probably afraid to let Guy in for fear of opening the flood gates for other special teamers, but really he's the ONLY one who ever gets any push for the HOF, so I don't see that being an issue. Tasker's been a semifinalist a couple of times, but I can't really see him getting in. Maybe if Hester continues to go off and brings even more attention to special teams play he'll have a shot, but he's at best several years away from serious consideration.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Just my 2 cents on the Ray Guy debate going on here....I have a real problem with someone being chosen as the best player at his position in the history of the NFL (this being so designated by being a member of the 75th Anniv. team), yet not being worthy of being in the HOF. If you are chosen as the best ever at your position, you should be in the HOF. If they are going to recognize FB and return specialist on the 100th Anniv. team, I would say the same thing. It is a total disgrace that a member of the NFL's 75th Anniv. team is not in the HOF. Again, just my 2 cents... >>
Good point..Although Billy White Shoes Johnson was the special teams/returner selected and is also not in the HOF, and never will be..
Packers OG Jerry Kramer was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary team from 1969 and has not been elected.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Total shame Ray Guy is not in the hall. He is the greatest punter that has played the game.
I can remember back when he was playing and usually when it was time for a team to punt, it was time to hit the restroom/get some food or snacks etc but not when Guy was punting. Then I had to watch because you never knew if he would hit the roof or what, plus back then they just started showing the hangtime on tv and he always had crazy times, like a 1-2 seconds more than the other punter. I have not seen another punter even close to having the impact on the game he did and that alone should have him in the hall.
PSA/Gayle IS accepting YES/NO votes for INDIVIDUAL players on the Future HOF additions- Modern and Senior.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The HOF news conference starts at 4 PM EST on NFL Network, but NFL Total Access comes on an hour earlier which will be HOF centric. Might get some early word on who made the cut to 10. I hope that eventually the NFL Network takes advantage of the inside ways and means that they have for this...
Can you imagine watching the entire HOF committee meeting live on NFL network? The presentations, the arguments, the voting process....Would be as good as watching the Super Bowl IMO..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>24 hours until the announcment!!!!! I must be insane to look forward to this so much.... >>
Hell no! I feel the same way.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
By Leonard Shapiro Special to washingtonpost.com Friday, February 1, 2008; 7:20 PM
PHOENIX -- On Saturday morning, I'll be heading into my 25th selection meeting for the Pro Football Hall of Fame on a day when I'll also be celebrating a birthday. Here's hoping three of the finest players in Redskins history, not to mention a former Georgetown basketball star, will mark Groundhog's Day, 2008, as a memorable date in their own lives.
Art Monk, Darrell Green and Russ Grimm are among 15 modern-era finalsts to be discussed by the selection committee as possible members of the Hall's Class of 2008. The old Hoya in question, Paul Tagliabue -- once a skinny New Jersey kid with very sharp elbows -- always will be better remembered as the long-time NFL commissioner, a visionary deep thinker who guided the league to the loftiest of heights as the most powerful sports entity on the planet in the 21st Century.
Green has to be considered the only lock among the four candidates with ties to the Washington area. It's his first year of eligibility, and the fact that he played 20 years on that lonely island all cornerbacks inhabit should be enough to attract voters to his cause. Of course, he also played the position at an extremely high level, and likely could have been a Devon Hester-like return man if Joe Gibbs would have risked it more often, making his candidacy even more appealing.
Grimm will get in some day, but it may not be Saturday, not with four offensive linemen on the ballot, three of them finalists for far longer than Grimm has been. That trio includes Miami's Bob Keuchenberg, who will move from modern day candidate to the senior category if he's not voted in on Saturday.
Tagliabue should been elected last year, following his retirement after the 2005 season, no questions asked. You can't write the history of the league without his name in the first paragraph, right after the first sentence on Pete Rozelle.
While the owners adored him for what he did for their bottom lines, he was a corporate lawyer by training and temperament, far from media friendly. Sadly, judging from the tone of the discussion a year ago, some media members on the selection panel are not going to be particularly friendly toward him again this year.
Shame on voters for making Tagliabue's candidacy personal and not professional. His absence from the Hall diminishes the institution, as well as the selectors who insist on keeping him out.
Once again, Monk's supporters -- present company included -- will point out all the relevant reasons he should have been voted in a long time ago. The statistical evidence is indisputable, from being the league's all-time leading receiver when he retired, to the consecutive games with a reception, to being a member of four Super Bowl teams, three of which won championships.
More significant was what he meant to the franchise. Gibbs has described him as the heart and soul of so many of those teams, the quiet leader who may not have been chatty with the press corps but talked with his actions. He set an example with his rigorous offseason training regime, unselfish -- often lethal -- downfield blocking, his refusal to moan about not going deep as often as Gary Clarke or the Smurfs and his occasional brief, but powerful locker room talks to teammates in times of crisis.
In an age when wide receivers are constantly pounding their chests, preening for cameras and performing tiresome "look-at-me" diva routines, Monk was a player who shied from the glare of the spotlight and preferred to do his talking with deeds, not words or choreographed touchdown celebrations.
Monk frequently chose not to be interviewed, not because he was rude or a jerk, but because he felt uncomfortable talking about himself. He was a shy and private, and most reporters on the beat at Redskins Park generally respected his decision to stay far from the newspapers and cameras. Still, it must be said that there were plenty of times when he did sit for an interview if he felt he had something important to say.
You'd like to think that selectors in the room who were rebuffed by his silent treatment when they came to town to write the "Monk" profile stories editors demanded might not hold that against him. Again, shame on them.
Monk has also been the victim of a system that often sees worthy candidates stall because votes are split between players at the same position. We saw it for years with Lynn Swann and John Stallworth, the two Steeler receivers who both eventually got in. Monk has been on the ballot with that pair and other worthy receivers like James Lofton, Michael Irvin, Charlie Joiner and Steve Largent, all of whom were elected before him. He certainly lost votes that went to all of them, though in my mind it should have been the other way around.
This time, he's on a ballot with first-time eligible Cris Carter, the former Viking receiver who finished his career second on the all-time receiving list, and Buffalo's Andre Reed. Carter never played in a Super Bowl, and at times was a pill, despite his sunshine and roses demeanor in front of the HBO cameras. In my opinion, he is NOT a first ballot guy, and it would be a travesty if he or Reed, another man without a Super Bowl championship, get in ahead of Monk.
In recent years, some selectors opposed to Monk's candidacy have at least been willing to pay more attention to his credentials. Several voters who said no in years past have told me this week they've been won over by arguments they've heard in the selection room and by research sent to them by enthusiastic Monk supporters far and wide.
So maybe this will be the year for Monk. Wouldn't it be appropriate to see him smiling on that Canton stage in July, posing with fellow Redskin and long-time teammate Darrell Green for the photographers. Of course, Chatty Kathy Darrell probably would dominate the press conferences, but surely that would be just fine with Art Monk.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hall of Fame QBs recall games against Derrick Thomas By RANDY COVITZ The Kansas City Star
PHOENIX | Forty-six NFL quarterbacks have a Derrick Thomas story. That’s how many passers Thomas sacked during his 11-year career as a Chiefs linebacker.
Five of those sack victims are Hall of Famers. And all have distinct memories of Thomas, a finalist for the fourth time today for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
“Derrick was a difference-maker every time I was on the field,†said Steve Young of San Francisco, who faced Thomas in 1994 and 1997 in games at Arrowhead Stadium.
“When you start looking at the guys who completely changed what offenses were able to do and were real game-changers, he certainly was one of them,†said Troy Aikman of Dallas, who faced Thomas three times.
Of the 126.5 sacks Thomas recorded before he died in 2000 from injuries suffered in an automobile accident, 32 of them — or 25 percent — came against Hall of Famers.
Thomas sacked John Elway the most of any quarterback — 17 times. The other Hall of Fame victims were Jim Kelly, six; Young, four; Warren Moon three; and Aikman, two. (He also had four sacks of future Hall of Famer Brett Favre and one of Peyton Manning, which will eventually increase the percentage to 29 percent.)
“One of the guys I really respect who votes for the Hall of Fame told me how he votes,†Young said, “and he said, ‘if you wrote the history of the NFL, you couldn’t write it without them.’ I think you can make the argument Derrick would be one of those guys, for sure.â€
Thomas, the NFL sack leader with 20 in 1990, holds the NFL single-game sack record of seven, set in 1990 against Seattle’s Dave Krieg, and also had six sacks in a game against Oakland in 1998.
But some of his performances in showdowns against five Hall of Famers may have been the most spectacular of all.
Buffalo’s Jim Kelly
It was one of the seminal moments of the 1990s when Thomas helped turn the Chiefs from a doormat to an NFL power. In a Monday night game on Oct. 7, 1991, at Arrowhead Stadium against the eventual AFC champion Buffalo Bills, Thomas sacked Kelly four times.
“Everybody always asks me the worst hit I took, the toughest guy to play against,†Kelly said, “and I always bring up Derrick Thomas because when we played in that game, I was dropping back to pass, and he was standing back there waiting for me.
“He was beating me to my drop. He was that quick. Every single time we played against the Kansas City Chiefs, we knew where Derrick Thomas was. He was a one-man wrecking machine. I think he’s a Hall of Famer.â€
Kelly got some revenge against Thomas when the Bills beat the Chiefs in the 1993 AFC championship game in Buffalo.
“We knew he relied a lot on speed to come upfield,†Kelly said. “We knew he couldn’t get off the ball as quick as he did in Kansas City. We knew some of our power linemen would be able to block him. He played better at home, but he was one heck of a football player.â€
Denver’s John Elway
Elway was sacked 516 times in his 16-year career, more than any other quarterback in NFL history. And Thomas left an indelible impression, especially in games at Arrowhead Stadium.
“He sacked me more often because he played me more than any of the others,†Elway said, referring to the other Hall of Fame quarterbacks. “Do you know how many he got in Kansas City and how many he got in Denver?â€
Thomas sacked Elway 14 times at Arrowhead Stadium, where he fed off the crowd noise, and just three times at Mile High Stadium in Denver. Thomas’ biggest day against Elway came in the regular-season finale of the 1992 season at Arrowhead. The winner of the game would head for the playoffs; the loser was out. Thomas sacked Elway three times, forced two fumbles, returned a fumble for a touchdown and hit Elway as he threw, causing an interception that was returned for a touchdown in the Chiefs’ 42-20 win.
“He was a guy who had great anticipation, was very smart, and when we went to Kansas City, he was great at using the crowd noise to his advantage,†Elway said.
Thomas also became the 15th player in NFL history to record 100 sacks when he dropped Elway twice in a 24-22 win in 1997 at Arrowhead.
“We played them so many times, and we had so many good games against each other,†Elway said, “it’s hard to remember them all.â€
San Francisco’s Steve Young
Young faced the Chiefs in two memorable games. The first was in 1994 when San Francisco visited the Chiefs and quarterback Joe Montana, who had been acquired in a trade with the 49ers the year before.
Thomas sacked Young three times, once for a safety, in a 24-17 Chiefs victory.
“I remember leaving quite a bit of body tissue on that field,†Young says now. “There was nothing easy about that ballgame. That sack in the end zone was probably the difference in many ways. When I saw the score of that game recently, I thought it seemed like it was more of a lopsided game than that.â€
The lopsided game came in 1997 when the Chiefs smashed San Francisco’s 11-game winning streak with a 44-9 victory. Thomas had one sack of Young in that game.
“Derrick was one of those guys who had tremendous anticipation (of the snap),†Young said. “I ran into the same problem with Rickey Jackson and Pat Swilling in New Orleans or earlier in my career with Lawrence Taylor in New York. You feel a little bit exposed. Derrick had tremendous speed, and he took advantage … and you had to roll away from him. He was faster than anybody who tried to block him.â€
Young, like most quarterbacks, feared Thomas’ ability to strip the football while making the sack. Thomas forced 45 fumbles during his career and recovered 19, returning four for touchdowns.
“Most pass rushers get to the quarterback, and they’ve got a single focus,†Young said. “But with Derrick, it was, ‘Why not get the ball turned over and pick it up and run for a touchdown?’ He was never content with the sack, but had the athletic ability to be thinking about those kinds of things.â€
Houston’s Warren Moon
Thomas may have sacked Moon three times in regular-season games, but perhaps their most memorable meeting came in a 1993 AFC second-round playoff game at the Astrodome when Thomas sacked Moon twice and caused one fumble.
“He was one of those guys you were told before you played him that week, you can’t give up on him until the whistle blows, because he’s relentless,†Moon said. “He just keeps coming. He was not only a great pass rusher himself, but he had a great impact on the rest of the defense as far as the pass rush was concerned.
“When you have to start accounting for him in your pass protections and making sure he’s blocked with a tight end or with a back, or you’re sliding that way, all that does is get you away from what you really want to do offensively. It gets you out of your philosophy, because you’re so worried about one guy, and it allows other guys to make plays like a Neil Smith on the other side, or a Dan Saleaumua on the inside.â€
When Moon joined the Chiefs in 1999, he appreciated Thomas even more as a teammate.
“Even though he was a very gifted guy, Derrick worked harder than people thought he did.†Moon said. “ He studied more than people thought he did about opponents … whether it was an offensive tackle he was going to go against or running backs he would have to cover coming out of the backfield.
“He gets slighted because even though he was noted more for sacks, he only did what he was asked to do. If he had to drop into coverage, he would drop into coverage. If he had to play the run, which he played very well, especially away from him, he played the run. If he was asked to rush the quarterback, which he was a lot of the time, he rushed the quarterback. He did a lot of things, but the sacks and forced fumbles create more attention than he did.â€
Moon also recognized Thomas’ efforts in the community, including the Third and Long Foundation that encouraged youngsters to read.
“For what he did on the field … where he ranks all time in sacks … and then what he did off the field. Derrick was a great humanitarian,†Moon said. “People don’t understand all the positive things he did with his foundation. Yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame.â€
Dallas’ Troy Aikman
The Chiefs and Cowboys are in different conferences, but Thomas still managed to sack Aikman twice in three games.
“He was a guy a lot like Lawrence Taylor, who we faced a whole bunch early in my career,†Aikman said. “Whenever we would put our game plan in, the first thing we would have to address is how are we going to block this guy? All of our routes began with protections in a variety of ways to make sure he wasn’t disruptive and keeping us from throwing the football.
“Derrick, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White are the three guys who come to mind from when I was playing that you would say, these guys can literally turn a game around by themselves, and that’s not easy to do for a defensive player.â€
Not only did he sack Aikman twice — once in Dallas and once in Kansas City — Thomas also sacked him in the Pro Bowl, which was against the rules.
“He wasn’t supposed to be blitzing, so we didn’t have anybody accounting for him,†Aikman said. “It’s hard enough blocking him when you have two guys on him, but we didn’t have anybody on him that day.
“A lot of defensive players are hoping to get that car they give to the MVP, so there were a lot of things going on in that game that weren’t supposed to be happening.â€
Aikman also took an interest in Thomas’ career because they both came out of the 1989 draft. Aikman was the first overall pick, Thomas the fourth.
“Deion Sanders and Barry Sanders were in that class,†Aikman said. “That was a good group. I’m proud of the draft class I was a part of, and Derrick Thomas was one of those. It made me feel good watching his career, even though it was cut a little bit short.â€
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I will be upset if Thomas doesn't get in. Granted I am a KC fan and met Thomas a couple times over the years so I am a little bias.
I was hoping to pick up a PSA 10 Score at a fair price before this weekend, but there has been a lack of them on ebay recently it seems. After the HOF annoucement I imagine I will have to wait a little longer and be happy with my PSA 9.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
PHOENIX – At 7:30 this morning, 44 people behind closed doors were to choose up to seven inductees for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
It's one of the most high-profile honors in professional sports, but how the chosen few are selected remains top secret. It's a process that, except for a general outline, is known by few and spoken of by virtually no one.
In other words, the first rule of Hall of Fame voting is: Don't talk about Hall of Fame voting.
Even the voters deciding who becomes a football immortal and who remains on a lesser plane won't know the results until an envelope containing that information is opened at 2:30 p.m. MST.
Today's voting – after politicking, argument and debate about the merits of 17 finalists – marks the end of a year that began with a larger list that was trimmed to a roll call of the most worthy.
Joe Horrigan, the Pro Football Hall of Fame's vice president for communications and voting administrator, compares the exercise to "herding cats." It combines facets of beauty pageant debates and Academy Awards secrecy – all done by people whose job it is to write and talk.
So why the secrecy in the room and before the final ballot is announced?
"It used to be a case of, We've always done it that way," Horrigan said. "But the interest level in recent years has created drama, and pressure on the voters is astounding."
The selection is unlike any in professional sports. It's different from baseball, which has hundreds of voters with mail-in ballots, and basketball, which relies on reporters, former players and historians.
Some members of the football committee like the voting the way it is, but others say they want a more transparent process.
"I think it's a very good process, and it's very fair the way it is structured," said ESPN.com's John Clayton, a committee member for almost 20 years. "I absolutely do not want to change it. Other sports have a lack of dialogue, and we are able to discuss the merits of each player."
Conversely, the Houston Chronicle's John McClain, who has been a voter for 16 years, wants to open the door to the public.
"We should have NFL Network televising what we're doing when we're in that room," he said. "It needs to be more open."
It starts that way. A fan may nominate a player, coach or "contributor" by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Players and coaches must be retired for at least five years to be eligible. No retirement restrictions exist for contributors, such as former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, among this year's nominees.
The committee receives a list of nominees, forwarded by the Hall of Fame, and is polled several times during the year. Each polling results in the list being refined and trimmed.
In the early fall, the committee chooses 25 semifinalists and, a short time later, knocks the list to 15.
A senior committee, consisting of nine veteran members of the overall selection committee, can nominate two finalists to add to the list. They generally make the Hall of Fame with little trouble once nominated because they are not counted among the maximum of five inductees the main committee can pick.
This year's senior candidates are Marshall Goldberg, a back with the Chicago Cardinals between 1939 and 1948, and Emmitt Thomas, a Kansas City Chiefs cornerback from 1966 to 1978.
That's where it stood with the 44 committee members beginning their final go-round this morning at the Phoenix Convention Center. Bagels, coffee and a lot of discussion will be on the menu.
The committee consists of 32 writers representing each NFL city, a representative from the Pro Football Writers of America and 11 writers-at-large, from major online and TV outlets such as ESPN.com and Fox Sports.
A journalist from the city that was a candidate's professional home presents that candidate's credentials, opening discussion and debate. (Redskins cornerback Darrell Green, for example, would be presented by a Washington, D.C., journalist.) The order of consideration for each candidate is random.
The list of 15 is trimmed to 10, followed by more discussion and final voting. Ultimately, five finalists are chosen, and those who are picked by at least 80 percent of the voters are elected to the Hall of Fame. Any candidate among the final five – plus the senior selections – not receiving 80 percent of the vote does not make the Hall.
"The truth is, if you are a player that makes it into the room, you are a very, very good player and a Hall of Fame-caliber player," Horrigan said.
Politics plays a part. Some experts say certain voters never will support a punter, even Raiders legend Ray Guy, for induction. Others have said too many 49ers or Cowboys are in the Hall – while admitting no biases. Click here to find out more!
Selection rules call for discussion to focus on players' on-field performance, but arguments have grown heated during debates about players such as Lawrence Taylor and Michael Irvin, whose sometimes troubled personal lives affected deliberations.
Horrigan and the Hall demand that kind of information – really, all discussion about players – remain with selection committee members. Divulging it is forbidden.
Former San Francisco Chronicle football columnist Ira Miller broke the code and was suspended from participating in this year's vote.
Last year Miller wrote a column that quoted someone involved in the selections and subsequently was disciplined, becoming the first person to suffer that consequence in the past two decades.
Miller, a voter for 17 years, is passionate about the Hall of Fame. He and at least two other committee members have asked for sweeping changes, from making the voting totals public to increasing the number of voters.
"This is a sensitive subject to a lot of people," said Miller, who now blogs about the NFL for the Contra Costa Times, Oakland Tribune and San Jose Mercury News. "I just want to see more people involved.
"We should open it up. We should do it at a different time of year. We do it the day before the Super Bowl when a lot of writers are worn out.
"If it is this important, then we ought to try to find a better way to do it."
Remembering Miller's fate, several members – most of whom are covering the Super Bowl this week – declined to discuss the process.
"They shouldn't be afraid to talk about it," Horrigan said. "I hope it's not out of fear."
The Hall has made recent rule changes, Horrigan said. He cites the senior committee changes, lengthening the waiting period for a retired coach from one year to five years – call it the "Bill Parcells rule" – and increasing the committee from 40 to 44 members.
The question remains, though, for a group of people whose job it is to find and report news, why the cloak and dagger? And why isn't the vote known until the winners are announced?
"The positive side is that people care," Horrigan said. "We review it every single year to see what should we do to make it better. At the same time, what can we do to protect the integrity of the selectors and the candidates? All of these things need to be considered.
"What we're trying to do is be a little cautious to guarantee the integrity and confidentiality. It's so important that a selector can go in there not fearing repercussions, right down to the candidates themselves."
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just thought I would post a couple of cards that I sent to PSA for review, I can't post them all but I pull a couple of the real nice one's to see what you guys think.
I wouldn't be shocked if I didn't get any bumps, but I think the Lary , Lane and Creekmur should all get bumps and the Creekmur should be a 9 , but I think the days of getting full grade bumps are all but over with the half grade now in existence. But I would like to everyone else thoughts before 4pm hits and this board goes alittle crazy !!!
Dan, here's how I would rank them based on the scans:
1-Hutson...I think we both will have 8.5 Hutsons before Valentine's day...lol 2-Creekmur...Card is gorgeous...99% bump potential 3-Lary...85% bump potential...I hope mine also gets the bump 4-Lane..60/40 bumpage..I sent my 57 Lane in as well.. 5-Grange...Only looking for a 7.5, definitely a strong possible..I sent my 8 in... 6-Stautner..Weakest of the group, but still wouldn't be out of the question.
I will post some of my similar send ins, let me know what you think as well..More opinions are always better than just one..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The PSA 9 1972 Wright went in for the full grade bump obviously..lol..No 9.5's...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Awesome cards All I can say is wow on the Tunnell, looks like a 9 easy to me. I would give 400 and my Tunnell 8 for the card today its that nice. Yale Lary is nicer than mine, easy bump Hutson I agree is a bump Lane, I actually think Lane is a high 8 but think mine might be a tad nicer Rayfield looks great , perfect centering - I can't tell about the bottom left corner. Can't tell if its the scan or the card. If its the card I would say no. Thorpe I think its a 7.5 but I think your chance are 50 /50 on that card.
Good Luck, and by the way Jason I also sent in that 57 Berry psa 7 that I bought from you. That card was a beauty and should be an easy 7.5 maybe higher. I actually cracked the card in hopes of getting an unbiased grade.
<< <i>Awesome cards All I can say is wow on the Tunnell, looks like a 9 easy to me. I would give 400 and my Tunnell 8 for the card today its that nice. Yale Lary is nicer than mine, easy bump Hutson I agree is a bump Lane, I actually think Lane is a high 8 but think mine might be a tad nicer Rayfield looks great , perfect centering - I can't tell about the bottom left corner. Can't tell if its the scan or the card. If its the card I would say no. Thorpe I think its a 7.5 but I think your chance are 50 /50 on that card.
Good Luck, and by the way Jason I also sent in that 57 Berry psa 7 that I bought from you. That card was a beauty and should be an easy 7.5 maybe higher. I actually cracked the card in hopes of getting an unbiased grade. >>
Yep, that Berry 7 was nice...Had I not gotten an 8, I likely would have done the same...Agree on all of the above. Your Lane is definitely nicer..I was more confident in it before I saw yours..lol..Probably less than 50/50 on it..Maybe it will help my 57 Unitas 8 chances..lol
The Wright has perfect corners, must be the scan making it look fuzzy.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If I were to send any cards in for bumps, which I don't intend to do at this time, I'd start with these...
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks. I think I finally got it figured out. Only took like 5 years
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
That Staubach looks 9ish..Dawson looks solid 8.5 territory as well...Not sure about the Jurgensen. The cardboard stock looks fairly toned, but that might be the scan.
Here's mine for a side-by-side comparison.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
REAL NICE centering on that Jimmy Brown, one of the best I've seen...I'd be interested to see how that one would turn out. Not sure how they'll treat the rough cuts/edges.
Jay, yeah the Thorpe has the one bad corner, which is why it's a PSA 7..I'll be interested to see what it takes to become a 7.5. Do you need PSA 8 centering or PSA 10 centering? The color on the Thorpe is outstanding, if they ever had a reason to use the "eye appeal" clause the Thorpe is it...
I sent in a fairly wide variety (60 cards total), and hope to get some idea on what they are looking for..That way, I'll know which PSA 7s and 8s I should be buying and hoping to bump!lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just reported that HOF meeting is complete..Just waiting for votes to be tallied. Hopefully they will tell us who made the cuts to 10 and 5 like they did last year.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Brown well got it this way CAN THIS GET THE .5 OPINIONS
Guy was a career 42.4 average and had a 62.1% Touchback:Inside the 20 success..(128 Touchbacks, 210 Inside the 20)
Compare him with Sean Landeta...43.3 career average and had a 69.7% Touchback:Inside the 20 success..(166 Touchbacks, 381 Inside the 20)
I feel the true measure to a Punter is pin the team back to little too no returns. Punt average is the biggest filler stat in the NFL. It means nothing , but how far you can punt.
So I pulled the stats for 3 or 4 of the best punters ever and gave the punters a true measure to there greatness.
Ray Guy 838 punts - 380 returned -- 45 % returned percentage no 73 , 74 or 75 . When he lead the league in punting in 74 and 75
Return avg per punt return 8.5
Sean Landeta 1401 punts - 730 returns 52% returned
return avg per punt 10.48
Darrnen Bennett 836 punts -- 402 returns 48% returned
return avg per punt return 10.83
Jerrell Wilson 207 punts -- 115 55 % returned Only his last 3 years
return avg per punt return 11.46
Ok, here's alittle add on to these stats. NFL didn't start keeping complete Punter stats until 1976 , no ( inside the 20 , Touchbacks or Net Avg ) . So you can take Guys 3 best season's 73 , 74 & 75 his 3 year stats are not even included in the above numbers.
As alittle side note
* 1985 Ray Guys 2nd to last season in the NFL , before back problems ended his career.
89 punts --- 26 returns for a crazy 29%
return avg per punt 6.11
* Plus one of two guys on the 75th Anv. team not in the HOF. and I'm counting as Rod Woodson as in " he's a lock "
dan has another good point. Distance is how a punter is ranked.....but fails to account for guys that can kick the ball that leaves our atmosphere. When ray guy punted...they would go to a commercial break...and come back to see the return ...if there was one.
He was a team guy......going for the inside the 20 sideline vs acquiring stats.
woodson is a 100% lock......yes guy deservs it also.
and andy.....good luck with ur giants
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
And those are many of the reasons Ray Guy has been a HOF finalist 7 times...Based on him making the final 15 so often, I think the voters do believe (in general) that he is HOF material. What gets him bumped every year is you have to bump other guys OUT in order to get him in...
Take the 7 years Guy has been a finalist. Here are the modern candidate players elected from those years. Who do you bump out and replace with Ray Guy?
John Mackey
John Riggins
Lem Barney
Steve Largent
Leroy Selmon
Kellen Winslow
Mike Haynes
Mike Webster
Eric Dickerson
Tom Mack
Lawrence Taylor
Ozzie Newsome
Dave Casper
Dan Hampton
Jim Kelly
John Stallworth
Michael Irvin
Bruce Matthews
Thurman Thomas
Roger Wehrli
Every single one of those guys has as strong if not stronger case than Ray Guy. This year will be no different...I think his best shot will be in his final year of eligibility. Whoever is presenting his case can argue that the voters thought enough of Ray Guy to make him a finalist 8+ times, he would deserve to go in on his last shot before heading off to the Senior Candidate abyss. Kuechenberg will have the benefit of that argument this year. And I think he's a near lock because of it.
You never know what can happen in the meeting. Some guys go in with their minds already made up, and some go in open minded and a good presentation on that player can sway votes. It did last year for Wehrli on his last shot.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dent's got the goods
Pitching former Bear's case for Hall of Fame is easy: His big plays drove the best defense in history, period
Dan Pompei
February 1, 2008
PHOENIX - As the Chicago representative on the Pro Football Hall of Fame board of selectors, I will have the responsibility of presenting the case for former Bear Richard Dent to the other 43 voters here Saturday.
Dent is one of 15 modern era finalists. After watching the large majority of the games in Dent's career, I strongly believe he should be one of the five inductees. Assuming everyone votes, he'll need 34 voters to agree with me.
It's a strong class of finalists, so I don't believe any of them is a cinch to be elected. Among the candidates for whom strong cases will be made are former Broncos linebacker Randy Gradishar, former Vikings guard Randall McDaniel, former Dolphins guard Bob Kuechenberg, former Vikings receiver Cris Carter, former Redskins receiver Art Monk, former Redskins cornerback Darrell Green, former Raiders punter Ray Guy and former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue.
And there are four pass rushers among the 15 -- which means they could cancel each other out.
So this is the case I intend to make.
Dent should not take a back seat to any of the other pass rushers. That isn't to say Derrick Thomas, Andre Tippett or Fred Dean are not worthy.
Dent, though, was the defender who made the most big plays on the best defense in history. For all the great players in the history of football, there isn't another who can make that claim.
When you compare the four pass rushers this year, you find Thomas had more honors in his career. And they were deserved honors. Thomas was arguably the greatest speed rusher ever.
Dent, however, was a complete pass rusher who found a hundred ways to get to the quarterback.
"Whatever you would give him he could take," said Bucs offensive line coach Bill Muir, who had the same position for the Lions back when Dent was playing. "He could run by you, he could be a speed rusher, he could be a counter rusher, he could run right over your [expletive]."
A thinking man's pass rusher, Dent turned games into clinics.
"His wit as a pass rusher stood out," said former 49ers left tackle Steve Wallace, who battled Dent for years.
"He was very clever. If he detected the slightest hand movement or difference in your stance, he knew without a doubt how to take advantage."
He had more career sacks than the other three finalists. Between 1984 and 1993, his peak seasons, Dent had 121.5 sacks -- more than Lawrence Taylor, who had 117, and Bruce Smith, who had 106. The only player who had more over that period was Reggie White, who had 137.
"He had great pass moves, a natural instinct to feel the openings and weaknesses and to take advantage, to exploit those opportunities," said former Packers left tackle Ken Ruettgers, a frequent opponent.
Dent's instinct was rare. Dent seemed always to know when to use which move. Former Vikings left tackle Gary Zimmerman, himself a Hall finalist, talks about how Dent would try to lull a blocker into taking it easy. All the while the blocker would think Dent was taking plays off. What Dent was doing, in fact, was setting up the chump for the kill.
"Nobody smelled blood better than he did," Zimmerman said. "If he got somebody down, he really piled it on. He was like a shark. If he sensed weakness, he took advantage of that."
Dent even had eight interceptions even though he hardly ever dropped into coverage. That's more interceptions than his Hall of Fame teammate Mike Singletary, who almost always dropped as a middle linebacker. He also had 58 passes defended -- that's a career for a good cornerback.
His ability to step up in the clutch is legendary. Dent's best games were his most important. The MVP of Super Bowl XX had six sacks in the 1985 postseason -- no player ever has had more. In 10 career playoff games, Dent had 10 1/2 sacks, four fumble recoveries and a forced fumble.
Many premier pass rushers are liabilities against the run. Dent was a weapon against the run. Coach Mike Ditka believes Dent was every bit the run defender that he was the pass defender. Over the 10 prime years of Dent's career, the Bears allowed an average of 1,573 rushing yards, lowest in the NFL.
"As a run defender, it surprised me how he would get his hands into you on the run and jam you through the chest," Wallace said. "And he read the run plays really well. You never suckered Richard Dent on a trap or anything like that. Instead of getting a 15-yard gain, he would go inside and stop it for a 2-yard loss."
See, I really don't have to make much of a case for Dent. His career will make the case for him.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Got about 8 cards I need to add now... These last few I need are kind of expensive! lol
Upgraded from a PSA 7
Upgraded from a PSA 1
Added this one. I didn't have one yet.
Upgraded from a pretty nice PSA 5
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>Damn HP Scanner....anything at the bottom (far right edge) of it comes out blurry when scanned. I'll have to rescan that one. I hate that P.O.S. >>
Congrats on the bumps. Did the Bednarik have a stain originally?
Win a TV
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Not bashing but no clue how the Bednarik can be a 5 it has no border
<< <i>Just my 2 cents on the Ray Guy debate going on here....I have a real problem with someone being chosen as the best player at his position in the history of the NFL (this being so designated by being a member of the 75th Anniv. team), yet not being worthy of being in the HOF. >>
I think that's a good argument, and one I would agree with. My feeling is that many of the voters are probably afraid to let Guy in for fear of opening the flood gates for other special teamers, but really he's the ONLY one who ever gets any push for the HOF, so I don't see that being an issue. Tasker's been a semifinalist a couple of times, but I can't really see him getting in. Maybe if Hester continues to go off and brings even more attention to special teams play he'll have a shot, but he's at best several years away from serious consideration.
<< <i>Just my 2 cents on the Ray Guy debate going on here....I have a real problem with someone being chosen as the best player at his position in the history of the NFL (this being so designated by being a member of the 75th Anniv. team), yet not being worthy of being in the HOF. If you are chosen as the best ever at your position, you should be in the HOF. If they are going to recognize FB and return specialist on the 100th Anniv. team, I would say the same thing. It is a total disgrace that a member of the NFL's 75th Anniv. team is not in the HOF. Again, just my 2 cents... >>
Good point..Although Billy White Shoes Johnson was the special teams/returner selected and is also not in the HOF, and never will be..
Packers OG Jerry Kramer was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary team from 1969 and has not been elected.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I can remember back when he was playing and usually when it was time for a team to punt, it was time to hit the restroom/get some food or snacks etc but not when Guy was punting. Then I had to watch because you never knew if he would hit the roof or what, plus back then they just started showing the hangtime on tv and he always had crazy times, like a 1-2 seconds more than the other punter. I have not seen another punter even close to having the impact on the game he did and that alone should have him in the hall.
Doc
PSA/Gayle IS accepting YES/NO votes for INDIVIDUAL players on the Future HOF additions- Modern and Senior.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Can you imagine watching the entire HOF committee meeting live on NFL network? The presentations, the arguments, the voting process....Would be as good as watching the Super Bowl IMO..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>24 hours until the announcment!!!!! I must be insane to look forward to this so much.... >>
Hell no! I feel the same way.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
<< <i>Tomorrow at 430 on the NFL network..
Dave >>
Thanks Dave!
I can't wait!
Reese
HOF RC Auto Set
1955 Topps Football AA
1950 Bowman Football
1951 Bowman Football
1952 Bowman Football
ebay user- Jolt333
Please be sure to check out my auctions!
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, February 1, 2008; 7:20 PM
PHOENIX -- On Saturday morning, I'll be heading into my 25th selection meeting for the Pro Football Hall of Fame on a day when I'll also be celebrating a birthday. Here's hoping three of the finest players in Redskins history, not to mention a former Georgetown basketball star, will mark Groundhog's Day, 2008, as a memorable date in their own lives.
Art Monk, Darrell Green and Russ Grimm are among 15 modern-era finalsts to be discussed by the selection committee as possible members of the Hall's Class of 2008. The old Hoya in question, Paul Tagliabue -- once a skinny New Jersey kid with very sharp elbows -- always will be better remembered as the long-time NFL commissioner, a visionary deep thinker who guided the league to the loftiest of heights as the most powerful sports entity on the planet in the 21st Century.
Green has to be considered the only lock among the four candidates with ties to the Washington area. It's his first year of eligibility, and the fact that he played 20 years on that lonely island all cornerbacks inhabit should be enough to attract voters to his cause. Of course, he also played the position at an extremely high level, and likely could have been a Devon Hester-like return man if Joe Gibbs would have risked it more often, making his candidacy even more appealing.
Grimm will get in some day, but it may not be Saturday, not with four offensive linemen on the ballot, three of them finalists for far longer than Grimm has been. That trio includes Miami's Bob Keuchenberg, who will move from modern day candidate to the senior category if he's not voted in on Saturday.
Tagliabue should been elected last year, following his retirement after the 2005 season, no questions asked. You can't write the history of the league without his name in the first paragraph, right after the first sentence on Pete Rozelle.
While the owners adored him for what he did for their bottom lines, he was a corporate lawyer by training and temperament, far from media friendly. Sadly, judging from the tone of the discussion a year ago, some media members on the selection panel are not going to be particularly friendly toward him again this year.
Shame on voters for making Tagliabue's candidacy personal and not professional. His absence from the Hall diminishes the institution, as well as the selectors who insist on keeping him out.
Once again, Monk's supporters -- present company included -- will point out all the relevant reasons he should have been voted in a long time ago. The statistical evidence is indisputable, from being the league's all-time leading receiver when he retired, to the consecutive games with a reception, to being a member of four Super Bowl teams, three of which won championships.
More significant was what he meant to the franchise. Gibbs has described him as the heart and soul of so many of those teams, the quiet leader who may not have been chatty with the press corps but talked with his actions. He set an example with his rigorous offseason training regime, unselfish -- often lethal -- downfield blocking, his refusal to moan about not going deep as often as Gary Clarke or the Smurfs and his occasional brief, but powerful locker room talks to teammates in times of crisis.
In an age when wide receivers are constantly pounding their chests, preening for cameras and performing tiresome "look-at-me" diva routines, Monk was a player who shied from the glare of the spotlight and preferred to do his talking with deeds, not words or choreographed touchdown celebrations.
Monk frequently chose not to be interviewed, not because he was rude or a jerk, but because he felt uncomfortable talking about himself. He was a shy and private, and most reporters on the beat at Redskins Park generally respected his decision to stay far from the newspapers and cameras. Still, it must be said that there were plenty of times when he did sit for an interview if he felt he had something important to say.
You'd like to think that selectors in the room who were rebuffed by his silent treatment when they came to town to write the "Monk" profile stories editors demanded might not hold that against him. Again, shame on them.
Monk has also been the victim of a system that often sees worthy candidates stall because votes are split between players at the same position. We saw it for years with Lynn Swann and John Stallworth, the two Steeler receivers who both eventually got in. Monk has been on the ballot with that pair and other worthy receivers like James Lofton, Michael Irvin, Charlie Joiner and Steve Largent, all of whom were elected before him. He certainly lost votes that went to all of them, though in my mind it should have been the other way around.
This time, he's on a ballot with first-time eligible Cris Carter, the former Viking receiver who finished his career second on the all-time receiving list, and Buffalo's Andre Reed. Carter never played in a Super Bowl, and at times was a pill, despite his sunshine and roses demeanor in front of the HBO cameras. In my opinion, he is NOT a first ballot guy, and it would be a travesty if he or Reed, another man without a Super Bowl championship, get in ahead of Monk.
In recent years, some selectors opposed to Monk's candidacy have at least been willing to pay more attention to his credentials. Several voters who said no in years past have told me this week they've been won over by arguments they've heard in the selection room and by research sent to them by enthusiastic Monk supporters far and wide.
So maybe this will be the year for Monk. Wouldn't it be appropriate to see him smiling on that Canton stage in July, posing with fellow Redskin and long-time teammate Darrell Green for the photographers. Of course, Chatty Kathy Darrell probably would dominate the press conferences, but surely that would be just fine with Art Monk.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
By RANDY COVITZ
The Kansas City Star
PHOENIX | Forty-six NFL quarterbacks have a Derrick Thomas story. That’s how many passers Thomas sacked during his 11-year career as a Chiefs linebacker.
Five of those sack victims are Hall of Famers. And all have distinct memories of Thomas, a finalist for the fourth time today for election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
“Derrick was a difference-maker every time I was on the field,†said Steve Young of San Francisco, who faced Thomas in 1994 and 1997 in games at Arrowhead Stadium.
“When you start looking at the guys who completely changed what offenses were able to do and were real game-changers, he certainly was one of them,†said Troy Aikman of Dallas, who faced Thomas three times.
Of the 126.5 sacks Thomas recorded before he died in 2000 from injuries suffered in an automobile accident, 32 of them — or 25 percent — came against Hall of Famers.
Thomas sacked John Elway the most of any quarterback — 17 times. The other Hall of Fame victims were Jim Kelly, six; Young, four; Warren Moon three; and Aikman, two. (He also had four sacks of future Hall of Famer Brett Favre and one of Peyton Manning, which will eventually increase the percentage to 29 percent.)
“One of the guys I really respect who votes for the Hall of Fame told me how he votes,†Young said, “and he said, ‘if you wrote the history of the NFL, you couldn’t write it without them.’ I think you can make the argument Derrick would be one of those guys, for sure.â€
Thomas, the NFL sack leader with 20 in 1990, holds the NFL single-game sack record of seven, set in 1990 against Seattle’s Dave Krieg, and also had six sacks in a game against Oakland in 1998.
But some of his performances in showdowns against five Hall of Famers may have been the most spectacular of all.
Buffalo’s Jim Kelly
It was one of the seminal moments of the 1990s when Thomas helped turn the Chiefs from a doormat to an NFL power. In a Monday night game on Oct. 7, 1991, at Arrowhead Stadium against the eventual AFC champion Buffalo Bills, Thomas sacked Kelly four times.
“Everybody always asks me the worst hit I took, the toughest guy to play against,†Kelly said, “and I always bring up Derrick Thomas because when we played in that game, I was dropping back to pass, and he was standing back there waiting for me.
“He was beating me to my drop. He was that quick. Every single time we played against the Kansas City Chiefs, we knew where Derrick Thomas was. He was a one-man wrecking machine. I think he’s a Hall of Famer.â€
Kelly got some revenge against Thomas when the Bills beat the Chiefs in the 1993 AFC championship game in Buffalo.
“We knew he relied a lot on speed to come upfield,†Kelly said. “We knew he couldn’t get off the ball as quick as he did in Kansas City. We knew some of our power linemen would be able to block him. He played better at home, but he was one heck of a football player.â€
Denver’s John Elway
Elway was sacked 516 times in his 16-year career, more than any other quarterback in NFL history. And Thomas left an indelible impression, especially in games at Arrowhead Stadium.
“He sacked me more often because he played me more than any of the others,†Elway said, referring to the other Hall of Fame quarterbacks. “Do you know how many he got in Kansas City and how many he got in Denver?â€
Thomas sacked Elway 14 times at Arrowhead Stadium, where he fed off the crowd noise, and just three times at Mile High Stadium in Denver.
Thomas’ biggest day against Elway came in the regular-season finale of the 1992 season at Arrowhead. The winner of the game would head for the playoffs; the loser was out. Thomas sacked Elway three times, forced two fumbles, returned a fumble for a touchdown and hit Elway as he threw, causing an interception that was returned for a touchdown in the Chiefs’ 42-20 win.
“He was a guy who had great anticipation, was very smart, and when we went to Kansas City, he was great at using the crowd noise to his advantage,†Elway said.
Thomas also became the 15th player in NFL history to record 100 sacks when he dropped Elway twice in a 24-22 win in 1997 at Arrowhead.
“We played them so many times, and we had so many good games against each other,†Elway said, “it’s hard to remember them all.â€
San Francisco’s Steve Young
Young faced the Chiefs in two memorable games. The first was in 1994 when San Francisco visited the Chiefs and quarterback Joe Montana, who had been acquired in a trade with the 49ers the year before.
Thomas sacked Young three times, once for a safety, in a 24-17 Chiefs victory.
“I remember leaving quite a bit of body tissue on that field,†Young says now. “There was nothing easy about that ballgame. That sack in the end zone was probably the difference in many ways. When I saw the score of that game recently, I thought it seemed like it was more of a lopsided game than that.â€
The lopsided game came in 1997 when the Chiefs smashed San Francisco’s 11-game winning streak with a 44-9 victory. Thomas had one sack of Young in that game.
“Derrick was one of those guys who had tremendous anticipation (of the snap),†Young said. “I ran into the same problem with Rickey Jackson and Pat Swilling in New Orleans or earlier in my career with Lawrence Taylor in New York. You feel a little bit exposed. Derrick had tremendous speed, and he took advantage … and you had to roll away from him. He was faster than anybody who tried to block him.â€
Young, like most quarterbacks, feared Thomas’ ability to strip the football while making the sack. Thomas forced 45 fumbles during his career and recovered 19, returning four for touchdowns.
“Most pass rushers get to the quarterback, and they’ve got a single focus,†Young said. “But with Derrick, it was, ‘Why not get the ball turned over and pick it up and run for a touchdown?’ He was never content with the sack, but had the athletic ability to be thinking about those kinds of things.â€
Houston’s Warren Moon
Thomas may have sacked Moon three times in regular-season games, but perhaps their most memorable meeting came in a 1993 AFC second-round playoff game at the Astrodome when Thomas sacked Moon twice and caused one fumble.
“He was one of those guys you were told before you played him that week, you can’t give up on him until the whistle blows, because he’s relentless,†Moon said. “He just keeps coming. He was not only a great pass rusher himself, but he had a great impact on the rest of the defense as far as the pass rush was concerned.
“When you have to start accounting for him in your pass protections and making sure he’s blocked with a tight end or with a back, or you’re sliding that way, all that does is get you away from what you really want to do offensively. It gets you out of your philosophy, because you’re so worried about one guy, and it allows other guys to make plays like a Neil Smith on the other side, or a Dan Saleaumua on the inside.â€
When Moon joined the Chiefs in 1999, he appreciated Thomas even more as a teammate.
“Even though he was a very gifted guy, Derrick worked harder than people thought he did.†Moon said. “ He studied more than people thought he did about opponents … whether it was an offensive tackle he was going to go against or running backs he would have to cover coming out of the backfield.
“He gets slighted because even though he was noted more for sacks, he only did what he was asked to do. If he had to drop into coverage, he would drop into coverage. If he had to play the run, which he played very well, especially away from him, he played the run. If he was asked to rush the quarterback, which he was a lot of the time, he rushed the quarterback. He did a lot of things, but the sacks and forced fumbles create more attention than he did.â€
Moon also recognized Thomas’ efforts in the community, including the Third and Long Foundation that encouraged youngsters to read.
“For what he did on the field … where he ranks all time in sacks … and then what he did off the field. Derrick was a great humanitarian,†Moon said. “People don’t understand all the positive things he did with his foundation. Yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame.â€
Dallas’ Troy Aikman
The Chiefs and Cowboys are in different conferences, but Thomas still managed to sack Aikman twice in three games.
“He was a guy a lot like Lawrence Taylor, who we faced a whole bunch early in my career,†Aikman said. “Whenever we would put our game plan in, the first thing we would have to address is how are we going to block this guy? All of our routes began with protections in a variety of ways to make sure he wasn’t disruptive and keeping us from throwing the football.
“Derrick, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White are the three guys who come to mind from when I was playing that you would say, these guys can literally turn a game around by themselves, and that’s not easy to do for a defensive player.â€
Not only did he sack Aikman twice — once in Dallas and once in Kansas City — Thomas also sacked him in the Pro Bowl, which was against the rules.
“He wasn’t supposed to be blitzing, so we didn’t have anybody accounting for him,†Aikman said. “It’s hard enough blocking him when you have two guys on him, but we didn’t have anybody on him that day.
“A lot of defensive players are hoping to get that car they give to the MVP, so there were a lot of things going on in that game that weren’t supposed to be happening.â€
Aikman also took an interest in Thomas’ career because they both came out of the 1989 draft. Aikman was the first overall pick, Thomas the fourth.
“Deion Sanders and Barry Sanders were in that class,†Aikman said. “That was a good group. I’m proud of the draft class I was a part of, and Derrick Thomas was one of those. It made me feel good watching his career, even though it was cut a little bit short.â€
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I was hoping to pick up a PSA 10 Score at a fair price before this weekend, but there has been a lack of them on ebay recently it seems. After the HOF annoucement I imagine I will have to wait a little longer and be happy with my PSA 9.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
It's one of the most high-profile honors in professional sports, but how the chosen few are selected remains top secret. It's a process that, except for a general outline, is known by few and spoken of by virtually no one.
In other words, the first rule of Hall of Fame voting is: Don't talk about Hall of Fame voting.
Even the voters deciding who becomes a football immortal and who remains on a lesser plane won't know the results until an envelope containing that information is opened at 2:30 p.m. MST.
Today's voting – after politicking, argument and debate about the merits of 17 finalists – marks the end of a year that began with a larger list that was trimmed to a roll call of the most worthy.
Joe Horrigan, the Pro Football Hall of Fame's vice president for communications and voting administrator, compares the exercise to "herding cats." It combines facets of beauty pageant debates and Academy Awards secrecy – all done by people whose job it is to write and talk.
So why the secrecy in the room and before the final ballot is announced?
"It used to be a case of, We've always done it that way," Horrigan said. "But the interest level in recent years has created drama, and pressure on the voters is astounding."
The selection is unlike any in professional sports. It's different from baseball, which has hundreds of voters with mail-in ballots, and basketball, which relies on reporters, former players and historians.
Some members of the football committee like the voting the way it is, but others say they want a more transparent process.
"I think it's a very good process, and it's very fair the way it is structured," said ESPN.com's John Clayton, a committee member for almost 20 years. "I absolutely do not want to change it. Other sports have a lack of dialogue, and we are able to discuss the merits of each player."
Conversely, the Houston Chronicle's John McClain, who has been a voter for 16 years, wants to open the door to the public.
"We should have NFL Network televising what we're doing when we're in that room," he said. "It needs to be more open."
It starts that way. A fan may nominate a player, coach or "contributor" by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Players and coaches must be retired for at least five years to be eligible. No retirement restrictions exist for contributors, such as former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, among this year's nominees.
The committee receives a list of nominees, forwarded by the Hall of Fame, and is polled several times during the year. Each polling results in the list being refined and trimmed.
In the early fall, the committee chooses 25 semifinalists and, a short time later, knocks the list to 15.
A senior committee, consisting of nine veteran members of the overall selection committee, can nominate two finalists to add to the list. They generally make the Hall of Fame with little trouble once nominated because they are not counted among the maximum of five inductees the main committee can pick.
This year's senior candidates are Marshall Goldberg, a back with the Chicago Cardinals between 1939 and 1948, and Emmitt Thomas, a Kansas City Chiefs cornerback from 1966 to 1978.
That's where it stood with the 44 committee members beginning their final go-round this morning at the Phoenix Convention Center. Bagels, coffee and a lot of discussion will be on the menu.
The committee consists of 32 writers representing each NFL city, a representative from the Pro Football Writers of America and 11 writers-at-large, from major online and TV outlets such as ESPN.com and Fox Sports.
A journalist from the city that was a candidate's professional home presents that candidate's credentials, opening discussion and debate. (Redskins cornerback Darrell Green, for example, would be presented by a Washington, D.C., journalist.) The order of consideration for each candidate is random.
The list of 15 is trimmed to 10, followed by more discussion and final voting. Ultimately, five finalists are chosen, and those who are picked by at least 80 percent of the voters are elected to the Hall of Fame. Any candidate among the final five – plus the senior selections – not receiving 80 percent of the vote does not make the Hall.
"The truth is, if you are a player that makes it into the room, you are a very, very good player and a Hall of Fame-caliber player," Horrigan said.
Politics plays a part. Some experts say certain voters never will support a punter, even Raiders legend Ray Guy, for induction. Others have said too many 49ers or Cowboys are in the Hall – while admitting no biases.
Click here to find out more!
Selection rules call for discussion to focus on players' on-field performance, but arguments have grown heated during debates about players such as Lawrence Taylor and Michael Irvin, whose sometimes troubled personal lives affected deliberations.
Horrigan and the Hall demand that kind of information – really, all discussion about players – remain with selection committee members. Divulging it is forbidden.
Former San Francisco Chronicle football columnist Ira Miller broke the code and was suspended from participating in this year's vote.
Last year Miller wrote a column that quoted someone involved in the selections and subsequently was disciplined, becoming the first person to suffer that consequence in the past two decades.
Miller, a voter for 17 years, is passionate about the Hall of Fame. He and at least two other committee members have asked for sweeping changes, from making the voting totals public to increasing the number of voters.
"This is a sensitive subject to a lot of people," said Miller, who now blogs about the NFL for the Contra Costa Times, Oakland Tribune and San Jose Mercury News. "I just want to see more people involved.
"We should open it up. We should do it at a different time of year. We do it the day before the Super Bowl when a lot of writers are worn out.
"If it is this important, then we ought to try to find a better way to do it."
Remembering Miller's fate, several members – most of whom are covering the Super Bowl this week – declined to discuss the process.
"They shouldn't be afraid to talk about it," Horrigan said. "I hope it's not out of fear."
The Hall has made recent rule changes, Horrigan said. He cites the senior committee changes, lengthening the waiting period for a retired coach from one year to five years – call it the "Bill Parcells rule" – and increasing the committee from 40 to 44 members.
The question remains, though, for a group of people whose job it is to find and report news, why the cloak and dagger? And why isn't the vote known until the winners are announced?
"The positive side is that people care," Horrigan said. "We review it every single year to see what should we do to make it better. At the same time, what can we do to protect the integrity of the selectors and the candidates? All of these things need to be considered.
"What we're trying to do is be a little cautious to guarantee the integrity and confidentiality. It's so important that a selector can go in there not fearing repercussions, right down to the candidates themselves."
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Red Grange psa7
1951 Lou Creekmur
1951 Ernie Stautner psa 8
1952 Yale Lary psa 8
1955 Don Hutson psa 8
1957 Dick Lane psa 8
I wouldn't be shocked if I didn't get any bumps, but I think the Lary , Lane and Creekmur should all get bumps and the Creekmur should be a 9 , but I think the days of getting full grade bumps are all but over with the half grade now in existence. But I would like to everyone else thoughts before 4pm hits and this board goes alittle crazy !!!
1-Hutson...I think we both will have 8.5 Hutsons before Valentine's day...lol
2-Creekmur...Card is gorgeous...99% bump potential
3-Lary...85% bump potential...I hope mine also gets the bump
4-Lane..60/40 bumpage..I sent my 57 Lane in as well..
5-Grange...Only looking for a 7.5, definitely a strong possible..I sent my 8 in...
6-Stautner..Weakest of the group, but still wouldn't be out of the question.
I will post some of my similar send ins, let me know what you think as well..More opinions are always better than just one..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The PSA 9 1972 Wright went in for the full grade bump obviously..lol..No 9.5's...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All I can say is wow on the Tunnell, looks like a 9 easy to me. I would give 400 and my Tunnell 8 for the card today its that nice.
Yale Lary is nicer than mine, easy bump
Hutson I agree is a bump
Lane, I actually think Lane is a high 8 but think mine might be a tad nicer
Rayfield looks great , perfect centering - I can't tell about the bottom left corner. Can't tell if its the scan or the card. If its the card I would say no.
Thorpe I think its a 7.5 but I think your chance are 50 /50 on that card.
Good Luck, and by the way Jason I also sent in that 57 Berry psa 7 that I bought from you. That card was a beauty and should be an easy 7.5 maybe higher. I actually cracked the card in hopes of getting an unbiased grade.
<< <i>Awesome cards
All I can say is wow on the Tunnell, looks like a 9 easy to me. I would give 400 and my Tunnell 8 for the card today its that nice.
Yale Lary is nicer than mine, easy bump
Hutson I agree is a bump
Lane, I actually think Lane is a high 8 but think mine might be a tad nicer
Rayfield looks great , perfect centering - I can't tell about the bottom left corner. Can't tell if its the scan or the card. If its the card I would say no.
Thorpe I think its a 7.5 but I think your chance are 50 /50 on that card.
Good Luck, and by the way Jason I also sent in that 57 Berry psa 7 that I bought from you. That card was a beauty and should be an easy 7.5 maybe higher. I actually cracked the card in hopes of getting an unbiased grade.
Yep, that Berry 7 was nice...Had I not gotten an 8, I likely would have done the same...Agree on all of the above. Your Lane is definitely nicer..I was more confident in it before I saw yours..lol..Probably less than 50/50 on it..Maybe it will help my 57 Unitas 8 chances..lol
The Wright has perfect corners, must be the scan making it look fuzzy.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here's mine for a side-by-side comparison.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
nice cards. i dont think the thorpe makes it with the lower right corner. but if they are only going to go by centering it might have a chance.
jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Jay, yeah the Thorpe has the one bad corner, which is why it's a PSA 7..I'll be interested to see what it takes to become a 7.5. Do you need PSA 8 centering or PSA 10 centering? The color on the Thorpe is outstanding, if they ever had a reason to use the "eye appeal" clause the Thorpe is it...
I sent in a fairly wide variety (60 cards total), and hope to get some idea on what they are looking for..That way, I'll know which PSA 7s and 8s I should be buying and hoping to bump!lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
1935 NATIONAL CHICLE KEN STRONG #7 PSA 2 ROOKIE HOF
1963 FLEER FB #72 LANCE ALWORTH PSA 7 ROOKIE
1970 Topps Elvin Bethea RC PSA 8
1982 TOPPS FOOTBALL #486 RONNIE LOTT RC PSA 9
1986 Topps RC #389 Bruce Smith PSA 9 Rookie
1950 BOWMAN PSA 6 ELROY HIRSCH
1974 Topps #383 John Hannah PSA 8
1962 Topps Fran Tarkenton # 90 PSA 7
1952 BOWMAN SMALL FB #29 HUGH McELHENNY PSA 6
1935 National Chicle Cliff Battles PSA 6
1933 Sport Kings Red Grange PSA 1
I've been a busy boy
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Darrell Green
Gary Zimmerman
Fred Dean
Art Monk
Emmitt Thomas
Andre Tippitt
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!