Well goal 1 has been reached even if just by a smidge and it might be short lived as Jay could sneak back past me real quick with the high grades he has but for the moment i squeezed my way into the top ten
Look out Jon here i come lol
If Jason and Joe all you fab five guys would just donate 1 card to my cause it would go a long way come on guys show the new guy some love guys
Now that Warren Sapp is retired (or so he says - Seau tried this a couple years ago and it didn't work), do you guys think he'll make the HOF? I'm kinda torn. He was arguably the best defensive player in the league for a couple of years, but I'm not sure if he was dominant long enough. I mean half the time he was on the Raiders I forgot he was even there. You NEVER heard his name mentioned. Luckily Moss got out of NFL pergatory when he did. I'll officially consider myself undecided right now about whether or not Sapp is a HOF'er.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Moss is and never will be a HOF and will NEVER be in my set. I've watched too many Raider games as he jogged up and down the field collecting a pay check. He gave up on the Raiders and Vikings the prior 3 years. If he was such a great player this year why couldn't manage a typical Moss season. A true HOF is a leader good or bad . Moss is with out a doudt one of the most talented players to ever play the game, but to blame his shameful play on "NFL pergatory" . Yeah Raiders I get it, is such a lame cop out . I watched Jerry Rice at the end of his career on the same bad team yet he played . I'm not alone, Peter King on ESPN Radio said " Randy Moss is no lock to ever make the HOF" King also said he's talked to many HOF voters that will never vote for Moss regardless of what he does the rest of his career. This is based on the fact that he so good now and so bad the last 3 years. So what I getting too is Randy's a QUITTER !!!! If Randy played the way he's playing this year , he's a lock to put up 1200 yards and 10 tds it doesn't matter where he plays..... Winning brings out the best in everyone !! I've seen the real Moss when he was losing.
Warren Sapp is a HOF , but might have to wait awhile.
I definitely think Sapp will be a HOFer. We will re-visit this in a week or so when we run the poll for the annual additions to the future HOF set- Modern.
He will almost undoubtedly be chosen as 1st Team All-Decade at DT. He has the 2nd most All-Pro votes at DT from 2000-2006, and I don't see anyone catching his vote count unless Haynesworth gets 40+ votes this year and as well as 2008 and 2009...This doesn't even take into account come of his most dominant years which were in the late 1990's...He was voted 2nd Team on the 1990's All-Decade squad already...
He has 7 Pro Bowls, 4 time 1st team All-Pro, Defensive Player of the Year award and a Super Bowl ring. He was the anchor on one of the dominant defenses of the decade with the Bucs...You can't tell me Derrick Brooks is the only HOF from that great Bucs defensive run, and I think Sapp gets in over any other Bucs player besides Brooks. People forget he had 10 sacks in 2006 with the Raiders...It was a quiet 10 since the team sucked so badly overall, but the defense was actually pretty descent and Sapp was a big part of that.
Again, next week once all award and All-Pros for 2007 are published we will run a vote for all possible additions to the Future Modern HOF set, and Sapp is one of those we will vote on.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Moss is and never will be a HOF and will NEVER be in my set. I've watched too many Raider games as he jogged up and down the field collecting a pay check. He gave up on the Raiders and Vikings the prior 3 years. If he was such a great player this year why couldn't manage a typical Moss season. A true HOF is a leader good or bad . Moss is with out a doudt one of the most talented players to ever play the game, but to blame his shameful play on "NFL pergatory" . Yeah Raiders I get it, is such a lame cop out . I watched Jerry Rice at the end of his career on the same bad team yet he played . I'm not alone, Peter King on ESPN Radio said " Randy Moss is no lock to ever make the HOF" King also said he's talked to many HOF voters that will never vote for Moss regardless of what he does the rest of his career. This is based on the fact that he so good now and so bad the last 3 years. So what I getting too is Randy's a QUITTER !!!! If Randy played the way he's playing this year , he's a lock to put up 1200 yards and 10 tds it doesn't matter where he plays..... Winning brings out the best in everyone !! I've seen the real Moss when he was losing.
Warren Sapp is a HOF , but might have to wait awhile.
Just venting . >>
I wouldn't call Moss a LOCK either, but I'd put him at about 85% right now...A couple more dominant years and he will be a 100% lock regardless of how he loafed it. I don't disagree he quit on the Raiders, and if the Patriots weren't 16-0 he might have done the same to them...When he is ON and playing? He's easily the best WR in the league since Jerry Rice...I don't think you'll be able to keep his numbers and his dominance out of the HOF. Winning tends to make people forget about the bad things..Will Belichek be a HOF coach? Of course he will, even with the scandal. What about Merriman and his steroids suspension? He'll still be a HOF if he keeps playing at a Pro Bowl level down the road...The NFL is a bad boy sport. Guys are forgiven much quicker than other sports if they outperform the competition.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I tried to argue last year that I didn't think either senior nominee would get in (I just didn't think they picked even close to the strongest candidates)
I was met with this strong rebuttal:
"There is NO WAY that will happen.
Here's why, the voters put ALOT of stock into the Senior committee. The Senior committee is actually made up of 9 of the most trusted members of the voters who select the HOFers. These 2 guys are automatic finalists. All they require is 80% confirmed on a yes or no ballot. The guys who will be arguing for their induction in the voting room are the very guys who SELECTED them.
There are so many deserving Senior candidates out there, it would be a crushing blow to have TWO Senior candidates denied. They would probably have to re-vamp the whole process of Senior's if that happened. I'd say 50/50 that both of them go in, but 100% that at least one of them WILL go in.
Just my opinion of course, Jason "
Now you are of the opinion that neither will get in.
Has something changed in the process that has led you to this conclusion?
Maybe this will cause them to "re-vamp" the entire process?!?!
With the candidates they have chosen the last few years, maybe it needs to be re-vamped!
I agree with a lot of what you said Dan. Moss did some terrible things towards the end of his time in Minnesota and then in Oakland. A team player he certainly was not. At times he acted like maybe the most selfish player of all time. I'd like to think he's grown at least a little from his former self. Who knows? No matter how you slice it though, guys like Moss and T.O. will make the HOF if the numbers are there. Fair? No. But that's the way it is.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i> Now you are of the opinion that neither will get in.
Has something changed in the process that has led you to this conclusion?
Maybe this will cause them to "re-vamp" the entire process?!?!
With the candidates they have chosen the last few years, maybe it needs to be re-vamped!
Gabbs >>
Gabbs, if I remember that was like the day of or day after the senior selections. Since then, everything I've read or heard any of the HOF voters say about the current 2 Senior candidates has been negative. Which is why at this point, I'm thinking their is a strong possibility NEITHER will get in. But what I said then is still the valid arguement FOR these guys. Another issue with the HOF voting is that it is still conducted by secret ballot. So nobody knows who exactly voted for or against which players. All we have to go by are the few voters who aren't afraid to make their vote and their opinions public. Even then, they COULD say one thing and actually vote another way. One day, I hope they make the vote public and show who voted for who and so on. It would provide some reasoning/explanation to how some of these things turn out.
The process has been evolving changing every year. I don't think they'll ever totally re-do/re-vamp it, but lets hope they continue to improve the process and make the football HOF the most valid selection of true HOF caliber players of any sport.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Warren Sapps 2003 Pro Bowl selection was complete crap.
In 2003 eight defensive linemen were on the NFC Pro Bowl squad. The most in four years. Three players were on the squad at Warren's position. He got on the squad because of name only not by his defensive play. It also helped that he made headlines by catching TD's on offense.
He has done many stupid things on and off the field simlar to Moss like actions
When he ran through the Steelers warm ups and started a pregame fight The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach Ejected from a game this year for swearing and bumping a ref His agent is Drew Rosenhaus (just hate the guy)
The guy will get in but sure as sh1t he will not be a first ballot guy. But I pray every night that he does not get enough votes.
<< <i>The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach >>
Everything about that play and the aftermath was despicable.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Warren Sapps 2003 Pro Bowl selection was complete crap.
In 2003 eight defensive linemen were on the NFC Pro Bowl squad. The most in four years. Three players were on the squad at Warren's position. He got on the squad because of name only not by his defensive play. It also helped that he made headlines by catching TD's on offense.
He has done many stupid things on and off the field simlar to Moss like actions
When he ran through the Steelers warm ups and started a pregame fight The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach Ejected from a game this year for swearing and bumping a ref His agent is Drew Rosenhaus (just hate the guy)
The guy will get in but sure as sh1t he will not be a first ballot guy. But I pray every night that he does not get enough votes. >>
Agreed, no chance of being a first ballot guy..He'll probably wait a few years because of all his negatives..One you forgot is that he fell in the NFL draft because of rumors of a hot drug test..
Definitely not a model citizen, but can't argue he was a dominant, at times unstoppable DT.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FYI, Cosetta will be posting some clarification/changes on the "Set Request" page in reference to HOF and Key Card sets. For those who don't know, Cosetta is awesome and the HOF RC set in particular wouldn't be what it is today if it were not for all her assistance along the way.
The new verbage should solve a couple of longstanding issues, one of which was brought to the forefront again when a request to add a Bill Willis oddball (NON rookie card) to the HOF Browns set was made last week. It's the same reason Willis isn't in the HOF RC set..He doesn't HAVE a rookie card from a mainstream issue.
The only floating issue still out there will be the individually numbered cards and how low PSA will eventually go in which cards they will accept for these sets in the future..Unofficially, here in discussions, we've always came up with /999 as the lowest number, but we until we come upon the situation and have to resolve it officially we'll probably still be in guess mode on that one.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Randy Moss is an amazing talent when he feels like playing. Terrell Owens has been a clubhouse cancer for much of his career, but he still plays hard. I suffered through 2 seasons of Raiders games watching Moss give it away before the snap when he wasn't the intended target (or it was a running play) - his stance was different. He also would run lackadaisical routes with his hands down if he wasn't expecting the ball, and he wouldn't come back to the ball or circle trying to get open if the QB was running trying to find a WR.
There's a good reason the Patriots got him for only a 4th round pick - everyone in the league had seen his behavior and no one wanted to offer more (several teams offered 5th rounders) for a guy who had quit on multiple teams.
<< <i>Drew Rosenhaus is the worst thing to happen to the NFL >>
Ditto for Scott Boras in baseball.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Great old article on Don Hutson for anyone interested...
HUTSON BRINGS DOWN THE HOUSE! By Pat Livingston Originally published in the Pittsburgh Press
The Steelers' rookie was upset. An All-America in a pro camp, he couldn't get over how the Green Bay Packers had walloped a great College All-Star team, 45-28, because the Stars didn't have a defense to stop a Packer receiver, Don Hutson, short of the goal line.
The rookie was Merlyn Condit, the finest running back who ever played at Carnegie Tech, getting ready for practice, as Tex Mayhew, the trainer, taped Condit's ankles, the Tartan grad confessed he was disillusioned in his debut against the pros.
"There's no excuse for a receiver to get open like that," Condit grumbled to Mayhew and Walt Kiesling, the Steeler's coach. "You can't tell me a good back, if he sets his mind to it, can't cover a receiver. Nobody's so good that sombody can't cover him."
"No one man can cover Don Hutson," shrugged the phlegmatic Kiesling. "The way you play Hutson, you double-team him -- or shoot him." Mayhew, strapping another strip of tape on Condit's ankle, agreed with the coach.
"Well, when we play the Packers, I'll cover Hutson," volunteered Condit. "He won't catch all those passes on me."
Kiesling and Mayhew traded glances, smiling at each other.
A couple of weeks later, in a game against the Steelers, Hutson caught the first 10 passes thrown his way. The Packers, who with the Chicago Bears dominated the NFL in those days, had the Steelers bagged by halftime.
Now this is not to embarrass Condit, a brilliant pro, but to recall the excellence of Hutson, the one player who, more than any other, symbolizes the Green Bay Packers. Hutson, the finest receiver I've ever seen, is the innovator who did more than anyone else's to make pro football the wide-open game it became.
Single-handedly, Hutson, the receiver who invented such routes as the Z-in and z-out, the button hook, the comeback and the hook-and-go, brought sophisticated passing to football. In a defensive game, he was the prototype offensive end.
Don't look for him in the record books, for most of the marks he established are gone. Hutson played in an era when NFL schedules called for 10 or 12 games a season, rather than the 14 and 16 of modern times.
He never caught 600 passes, receivers like Charley Taylor, Don Maynard or Raymond Berry did, but were you to extend his four-catch-per-game average to the number of games these fellows played, Hutson would be the only receiver in history to have caught 700.
And no receiver in the NFL, no matter how long he played, ever matched the 99 touchdown (passes) Hutson -- often the only receiver in the pattern -- scored during his 11 years with the Pack.
I got to thinking about Hutson. Unlike Berry, who is associated with Johnny Unitas, or Taylor, who dredges up memories of Sonny Jurgensen, Hutson dominated quarterbacks whoever they were, Cecil Isbell or Clarke Hinkle. In the '40s in the NFL, he was the man. He dazzled the game.
I recall a game while I and my Press city-side colleague, John Place, were at the Navy's midshipmen's school at Northwestern. Hutson, who would score 17 touchdowns that year, was on a streak, scoring a touchdown or more in an impressive string of games.
This game involved the Bears. Two years before, the Bears had walloped the Redskins, 73-0, and had lost only to the Pack, 16-14 -- on a Don Hutson field goal, of course -- during an incredible streak of 28 games. Wrigley Field was jammed. Although he couldn't get me a ticket, George Halas arranged with his brother, Frank, to pass me through the gate.
As I said, the Bears were awesome. With two minutes to play, they scored their final touchdown, taking a 38-0 lead against the hated Packers. More important to Halas, the Bears had stopped Hutson's touchdown spree -- or had they?
Taking the kickoff, with nothing at stake but Hutson's streak, the beaten Packers started to drive. Throwing on every down, usually to Hutson, Isbell worked the ball in for a first- and 10 around the Chicago 20, with seconds left to play.
The mob was wild. Hutson was trailed by Bears wherever he went. And as Isbell's three passes fell incomplete, the Packers had fourth and 10, some 20 yards short of the end zone, the clock running down.
Then came the most incredible premeditated play I ever saw on a football field. It was no accident. There were no disputes. At its completion, every article that wasn't nailed down came sailing out of the stands. Hutson, the enemy, drew a standing ovation, the wildest demonstration I ever saw bestowed on an antagonist. Lining up as a flanker, harassed by three Bears, the cagy old Alabamian ran a simple post pattern, diagonally in on the twin-poled uprights, Bears convoying him, stride by stride.
As the four men raced under the bar, Hutson hooked his elbow around the upright, stopped abruptly, flung his body sharply left and left the red-faced Bears scrambling around in their cleats. He stood alone in the end zone as he casually gathered Isbell's throw to his chest.
"I'll never forget that pass," said Harry Clark, the old West Virginia star, when I ran into him a couple of months ago. "How could I?
"Halas was fit to be tied," recalled Clark, one of Chicago's defenders on the play. "He sent us in there, three of us, expressly to cover Hutson. That's all we had to do. Oh, were we sick.
"Do you know who the other defenders were?" asked Clark as an after-thought.
I didn't recall.
Clark smiled. "Dante Magnani and George McAfee," said he.
"Could you pick any defenders better than them?"
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I had never heard the story about him using the goal post for an assist in his route. I wish there were footage of that event...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Don Hutson is the best WR in the history of the NFL. PERIOD!
Jerry Rice was great but Hutson started it all and did it in an era of running. Rice did it in an era of the West Coast Offense.
Don Hutson is the best there ever was at the WR position. As the article said he never had a great QB throwing him the ball or had a great supporting cast.
Jerry Rice had Pro Bowl and All Pro QB's ever year of his career with the 49ers. Montana, Young and Garcia. Without these QB's and the "system" Rice's number would have not been as good. Still good but not the ridiculous numbers they are now. Look at Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, John Taylor, Brent Jones, and JJ Stokes. These guys pulled down 50+ passes or made All Pro or Pro Bowls regularly with Young and or Montana. These guys would be 20 reception guys on any other team during the 80's and 90's.
I find it very interesting that so many people just assume Rice is the best.
<< <i>I had never heard the story about him using the goal post for an assist in his route. I wish there were footage of that event...lol
Jason >>
I saw this play at the Packer Hall of Fame in Green Bay. It was of course black and white but it was on a highlight reel from the early years of the Pack. That is the only place I have seen it.
I fitting tribute to Hutson was the naming of the Packers practice facility across from Lambeau field. Growing up in GB I heard the many stories of how great he was, but sadly most people who follow football don't even know him. I wonder if 50 years from now fans will remember Favre, Montana, Rice and all the great players we have been able to watch.
<< <i>I had never heard the story about him using the goal post for an assist in his route. I wish there were footage of that event...lol
Jason >>
I saw this play at the Packer Hall of Fame in Green Bay. It was of course black and white but it was on a highlight reel from the early years of the Pack. That is the only place I have seen it. >>
Wow, that means the footage exists...New mission for me to find it! I've got to see how that played out..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hutson was hands down the most dominant receiver ever (i.e. he dominated his era like no other), but I still give the nod to Jerry Rice as the greatest WR ever. You can say that he was helped by playing with Montana and Young - but he helped them too! I don't think Rice can be shorted just because there were other very good receivers playing at the same time as him, whereas Hutson stood out by a mile. So again, IMO, Hutson most dominant. Rice the best. I mean what more could Rice have done???
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. Man it is a major bummer that Hutson didn't have a mainstream card (Wheaties not withstanding) issued during his playing days. Imagine how valuable a PSA 9 '35 Chicle Hutson would be. WOW!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. Man it is a major bummer that Hutson didn't have a mainstream card (Wheaties not withstanding) issued during his playing days. Imagine how valuable a PSA 9 '35 Chicle Hutson would be. WOW! >>
I'd bet very close to Nagurski in price...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Don Hutson is the best WR in the history of the NFL. PERIOD!
Jerry Rice was great but Hutson started it all and did it in an era of running. Rice did it in an era of the West Coast Offense.
Don Hutson is the best there ever was at the WR position. As the article said he never had a great QB throwing him the ball or had a great supporting cast.
Jerry Rice had Pro Bowl and All Pro QB's ever year of his career with the 49ers. Montana, Young and Garcia. Without these QB's and the "system" Rice's number would have not been as good. Still good but not the ridiculous numbers they are now. Look at Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, John Taylor, Brent Jones, and JJ Stokes. These guys pulled down 50+ passes or made All Pro or Pro Bowls regularly with Young and or Montana. These guys would be 20 reception guys on any other team during the 80's and 90's.
I find it very interesting that so many people just assume Rice is the best. >>
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Alright guys..After some discussion between myself and Marc D. (MAD) about fixing the grade weighting on the set, I went through VCP and assigned the average selling price in PSA 8 to all the cards on the HOF RC set. We all know the SMR is far from reality on most of the HOF RCs. If PSA will accept this grade weight update based on REALIZED prices, we will have the most accurately weighted set on the Registry. I will continue to update the weights once per year (every January) based on VCP actual market prices rather than SMR pricing. It's still not a perfect solution, but honestly I don't think you will get any better or find any better or more accurate weighting on the entire Registry.
Copy and past below of the list. Card number, card name, current weight and proposed weight based on realized prices. Take a look and see if there are any card you think need to be moved up or down and we will discuss it. If PSA decides they still want ONLY SMR priced weighting, our goal to get this fixed will be to get the SMR fixed.
Card number Card Current Weight New Weight 4 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS HAROLD (RED) GRANGE 8.5 8.5 6 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS JIM THORPE 8.5 8.5 1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE EARL (DUTCH) CLARK 8 8.5 7 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE KEN STRONG 7 8 10 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE CLIFF BATTLES 7 7.5 11 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE ALBERT (TURK) EDWARDS 7 8 24 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE CLARKE HINKLE 7 8.5 34 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE BRONKO NAGURSKI 10 10 36 1948 BOWMAN CLYDE (BULLDOG) TURNER 4.5 7 61 1948 BOWMAN ALEX WOJCIECHOWICZ 3 5.5 63 1948 BOWMAN PETE PIHOS 4.5 6 1 1948 LEAF SID LUCKMAN 6.5 9 4 1948 LEAF DOAK WALKER 4.5 8 6 1948 LEAF BOBBY LAYNE 7 8 19 1948 LEAF GEORGE MCAFEE 4.5 6 22 1948 LEAF STEVE VAN BUREN 5 7.5 26 1948 LEAF BOB WATERFIELD 5 7.5 29 1948 LEAF CHARLEY TRIPPI 4.5 7 34 1948 LEAF SAMMY BAUGH 7.5 9 36 1948 LEAF BILL DUDLEY 4.5 8 37 1948 LEAF GEORGE CONNOR 3.5 7 52 1948 LEAF LEO NOMELLINI 6.5 8.5 54 1948 LEAF CHUCK BEDNARIK 6.5 9 5 1950 BOWMAN Y.A. TITTLE 5 6 6 1950 BOWMAN LOU GROZA 3.5 4 9 1950 BOWMAN TONY CANADEO 2.5 6.5 35 1950 BOWMAN JOE PERRY 3.5 4 43 1950 BOWMAN MARION MOTLEY 3.5 5.5 45 1950 BOWMAN OTTO GRAHAM 5.5 6 51 1950 BOWMAN TOM FEARS 3 3 52 1950 BOWMAN ELROY HIRSCH 3.5 5 78 1950 BOWMAN DANTE LAVELLI 3 3.5 4 1951 BOWMAN NORM VAN BROCKLIN 6 6 21 1951 BOWMAN ARNIE WEINMEISTER 2 4 62 1951 BOWMAN LOU CREEKMUR 2 5.5 91 1951 BOWMAN EMLEN TUNNELL 2.5 5.5 96 1951 BOWMAN ERNIE STAUTNER 2.5 3.5 16 1952 BOWMAN FRANK GIFFORD 5.5 6.5 23 1952 BOWMAN GINO MARCHETTI 4 6 29 1952 BOWMAN HUGH MCELHENNY 4 6 46 1952 BOWMAN ART DONOVAN 5 6 57 1952 BOWMAN WAYNE MILLNER 3 5 85 1952 BOWMAN ANDY ROBUSTELLI 4 6 99 1952 BOWMAN JOE STYDAHAR 5.5 7.5 127 1952 BOWMAN OLLIE MATSON 5.5 7 129 1952 BOWMAN JACK CHRISTIANSEN 4 6 140 1952 BOWMAN YALE LARY 4 6 4 1954 BOWMAN DOUG ATKINS 1.5 2.5 23 1954 BOWMAN GEORGE BLANDA 3.5 4 2 1955 BOWMAN MIKE MCCORMACK 2 2.5 14 1955 BOWMAN LEN FORD 2 2 42 1955 BOWMAN JOHN HENRY JOHNSON 2 2 70 1955 BOWMAN JIM RINGO 2.5 6 101 1955 BOWMAN BOB ST. CLAIR 2.5 6.5 119 1955 BOWMAN FRANK GATSKI 2 3 28 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN MEL HEIN 2 2.5 56 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN ERNIE NEVERS 2.5 3 64 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN BENNY FREIDMAN 1.5 2.5 66 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN FRANK (BRUISER) KINARD 1.5 2.5 84 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN CLARENCE(ACE) PARKER 2 3 97 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN DON HUTSON 3.5 5.5 100 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN WILBUR (FATS) HENRY 3.5 5.5 41 1956 TOPPS ROOSEVELT BROWN 1.5 2.5 44 1956 TOPPS JOE SCHMIDT 2 2.5 47 1956 TOPPS BILL GEORGE 1.5 2.5 60 1956 TOPPS LENNY MOORE 3 4.5 71 1956 TOPPS STAN JONES 1.5 3 85 1957 TOPPS DICK (NIGHT TRAIN) LANE 2 3.5 94 1957 TOPPS RAYMOND BERRY 3 6.5 119 1957 TOPPS BART STARR 6.5 7 124 1957 TOPPS TOMMY MCDONALD 2 3.5 138 1957 TOPPS JOHNNY UNITAS 6 6 151 1957 TOPPS PAUL HORNUNG 6 7 62 1958 TOPPS JIM BROWN 6.5 7 90 1958 TOPPS SONNY JURGENSEN 3 3 51 1959 TOPPS SAM HUFF 2 2 132 1959 TOPPS JIM PARKER 1.5 1.5 140 1959 TOPPS BOBBY MITCHELL 1.5 1.5 155 1959 TOPPS JIM TAYLOR 1.5 1.5 118 1960 FLEER RON MIX 2 2 56 1960 TOPPS FORREST GREGG 1.5 1.5 197 1961 FLEER JIM OTTO 2 1.5 215 1961 FLEER DON MAYNARD 2 1.5 45 1961 TOPPS HENRY JORDAN 1.5 2.5 16 1962 FLEER BILLY SHAW 1.5 4.5 17 1962 TOPPS MIKE DITKA 5 6 90 1962 TOPPS FRAN TARKENTON 5 5.5 10 1963 FLEER NICK BUONICONTI 2 4.5 47 1963 FLEER LEN DAWSON 3.5 3.5 72 1963 FLEER LANCE ALWORTH 3.5 4.5 44 1963 TOPPS DAVID (DEACON) JONES 2 2 82 1963 TOPPS BOB LILLY 3 4 95 1963 TOPPS WILLIE WOOD 1.5 2 96 1963 TOPPS RAY NITSCHKE 2.5 3.5 155 1963 TOPPS LARRY WILSON 1.5 1.5 3 1964 PHILADELPHIA JOHN MACKEY 1.5 2 71 1964 PHILADELPHIA HERB ADDERLEY 1.5 1.5 72 1964 PHILADELPHIA WILLIE DAVIS 1.5 1.5 91 1964 PHILADELPHIA MERLIN OLSEN 1.5 1.5 161 1964 PHILADELPHIA JIMMY JOHNSON 1.5 1.5 90 1964 TOPPS BOBBY BELL 1.5 2 92 1964 TOPPS BUCK BUCHANAN 1.5 2 41 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL WARFIELD 2 2 53 1965 PHILADELPHIA MEL RENFRO 2 3.5 105 1965 PHILADELPHIA CARL ELLER 1.5 1.5 189 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL KRAUSE 1.5 2 195 1965 PHILADELPHIA CHARLEY TAYLOR 2 2.5 46 1965 TOPPS WILLIE BROWN 2.5 5 122 1965 TOPPS JOE NAMATH 9 8.5 133 1965 TOPPS FRED BILETNIKOFF 4.5 5 31 1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS 4.5 6 38 1966 PHILADELPHIA GALE SAYERS 4.5 4 45 1966 PHILADELPHIA GENE HICKERSON 1 3 134 1966 PHILADELPHIA BOB BROWN 1 3 43 1967 PHILADELPHIA LEROY KELLY 2 5.5 165 1967 PHILADELPHIA JACKIE SMITH 2 2.5 178 1967 PHILADELPHIA DAVE WILCOX 1.5 2.5 196 1968 TOPPS BOB GRIESE 2.5 3.5 120 1969 TOPPS LARRY CSONKA 2 2 25 1970 TOPPS JAN STENERUD 1 1 43 1970 TOPPS ELVIN BETHEA 1 1 59 1970 TOPPS ALAN PAGE 1 1 75 1970 TOPPS LEM BARNEY 1 1 90 1970 TOPPS O.J. SIMPSON 2 2 151 1970 TOPPS TOM MACK 1 1 113 1971 TOPPS KEN HOUSTON 1 1.5 114 1971 TOPPS WILLIE LANIER 1 1 156 1971 TOPPS TERRY BRADSHAW 4 4 188 1971 TOPPS ROGER WEHRLI 1 2.5 210 1971 TOPPS CHARLIE SANDERS 1 3 245 1971 TOPPS JOE GREENE 2 2.5 13 1972 TOPPS JOHN RIGGINS 1 1 93 1972 TOPPS TED HENDRICKS 1.5 1 104 1972 TOPPS RON YARY 1 1 186 1972 TOPPS GENE UPSHAW 1 1 200 1972 TOPPS ROGER STAUBACH 3 4 240 1972 TOPPS LARRY LITTLE 1 1 244 1972 TOPPS CHARLIE JOINER 1 1 316 1972 TOPPS RAYFIELD WRIGHT 1.5 2 77 1973 TOPPS ART SHELL 1 1 89 1973 TOPPS FRANCO HARRIS 1.5 1.5 115 1973 TOPPS JACK HAM 1.5 1.5 322 1973 TOPPS DAN DIERDORF 1 1 341 1973 TOPPS JIM LANGER 1 1 343 1973 TOPPS JACK YOUNGBLOOD 1 1 183 1974 TOPPS JOE DELAMIELLEURE 1 1.5 383 1974 TOPPS JOHN HANNAH 1 1 12 1975 TOPPS MEL BLOUNT 1 1 282 1975 TOPPS LYNN SWANN 1.5 1.5 367 1975 TOPPS DAN FOUTS 1 1.5 148 1976 TOPPS WALTER PAYTON 2.5 2.5 158 1976 TOPPS RANDY WHITE 1 1 220 1976 TOPPS JACK LAMBERT 1 1 29 1977 TOPPS LEE ROY SELMON 1 1 50 1977 TOPPS MIKE HAYNES 1 1 99 1977 TOPPS MIKE WEBSTER 1 1 146 1977 TOPPS HARRY CARSON 1 1 177 1977 TOPPS STEVE LARGENT 1 1 380 1977 TOPPS DAVE CASPER 1 1 315 1978 TOPPS TONY DORSETT 1 1 320 1978 TOPPS JOHN STALLWORTH 1 1 308 1979 TOPPS OZZIE NEWSOME 1 1 310 1979 TOPPS JAMES LOFTON 1 1 390 1979 TOPPS EARL CAMPBELL 1 1 150 1981 TOPPS KELLEN WINSLOW 1 1 216 1981 TOPPS JOE MONTANA 2 1.5 316 1981 TOPPS DAN HAMPTON 1 1 51 1982 TOPPS ANTHONY MUNOZ 1 1 434 1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR 1 1 486 1982 TOPPS RONNIE LOTT 1 1 38 1983 TOPPS MIKE SINGLETARY 1 1 294 1983 TOPPS MARCUS ALLEN 1 1 63 1984 TOPPS JOHN ELWAY 1.5 1.5 111 1984 TOPPS HOWIE LONG 1 1 123 1984 TOPPS DAN MARINO 1.5 1 129 1984 TOPPS DWIGHT STEPHENSON 1 1 280 1984 TOPPS ERIC DICKERSON 1 1 286 1984 TOPPS JACKIE SLATER 1 1 36 1984 TOPPS USFL JIM KELLY 1.5 1.5 52 1984 TOPPS USFL STEVE YOUNG 1.5 1.5 58 1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE 1 1 251 1985 TOPPS WARREN MOON 1 1 253 1985 TOPPS MIKE MUNCHAK 1 1 18 1989 SCORE MICHAEL IRVIN 1 1 109 1989 SCORE BRUCE MATTHEWS 1 1 211 1989 SCORE THURMAN THOMAS 1 1 257 1989 SCORE BARRY SANDERS 1 1 270 1989 SCORE TROY AIKMAN 1 1
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M. >>
So you are saying Herber and Isbel are in the same class as Young and Montana? When people ask, who are the best QB's of all time I am sure no one mentions Herber or Isbel but they all mention Montana and Young. Herber and Isbel both lead the league in passing with Hutson but their stats are lost in the midst of an era where teams consistantly rushed for more yards than they passed. You don't see that nowadays. Can you imagine the Jag's leading the league in rushing with 3500 yards? And only have 1500 or so yards passing?
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M. >>
So you are saying Herber and Isbel are in the same class as Young and Montana? When people ask, who are the best QB's of all time I am sure no one mentions Herber or Isbel but they all mention Montana and Young. Herber and Isbel both lead the league in passing with Hutson but their stats are lost in the midst of an era where teams consistantly rushed for more yards than they passed. You don't see that nowadays. Can you imagine the Jag's leading the league in rushing with 3500 yards? And only have 1500 or so yards passing? >>
You can't compare Herber/Isbel to Montana/Young - you're comparing apples with oranges. You could argue that Hutson MADE his quaterbacks look better - but then again, you could make the same argument with nearly any Quarterback / WR HOF duos.
I think you have to look at what they accomplished in the era that they played. To have 1500 yards passing in a year now is nothing - but back in the 30's you would likely lead the league.
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Surprised Eller gets any weight at all. The only vintage hof rookie i can think of that does not even sell for smr No biggie but it`s a 1 in my opinion based on smr and real prices
EDITED TO ad that my eller comment based on 8 prices nines still sell for more then smr
I love the Idea Jason, the more accurate the better in my opion. Overall I think the grades are dead on, but there are a couple I think are low and a couple to high. 1966 Bob Brown -- has to be a 350 to 450 card , although I think it will drop in value as time passes 1952 Art Donovan -- 1200 to 1500 same value as a Gifford 1948 Pete Pihos -- super tough the last one sold for a bargain of 1350 range , should have the same value as the Bull dog turner 1948 Alex Wojciechowicz -- not as tough as the other two bowmans, but still 1K card maybe a .5 bump 1952 Yale Lary -- tougher card than Christianson , Robustelli , Marchetti - maybe a .5 bump 1965 Willie Brown -- another super tough card at least the same value as a Tarkenton probably much higher and easily one of the toughest 60's cards to find psa 8 . 1984 Jim Kelly -- .5 too high same value as a Joe Montana 8 1974 Joe Delamielluere -- .5 too high 45 dollar card not any higher than a Hannah. 1965 Charley Taylor - .5 to high, same value as a Warfield
Just some thoughts, although again I think you did a great job. Thanks Dan
I love the idea. I really hope PSA takes the new weights. Nice to see a few of them getting a well deserved bump. Brown, Hickerson & Kelly among others. Curious to see how it will affect the current rankings. I should run my set through it and see how it would change. That could be interesting.
Jason & Marc, thanks for taking the time to do this.
One question on the weights... Bednarik in an 8, weighted at a 9. $38k was the last sale I believe, last Nagurski 8 was $58k. With Grange & Thorpe being weighted at 8.5 each, but the Grange sells more than double the Thorpe ($13k v. $6.5k) shouldn't the Thorpe maybe be weighted .5 below the Grange and the Bednarik weighted up to 9.5? Especially with the Bednarik being such a tough card...
All of the prices I used were average selling prices..Not most recently sold. For example, one Grange selling 13K doesn't make it a 13k card especially when many others sold in the 4-6K range. Bednarik was a POP 1, so hard to gauge that price. It wouldnt sell that high on ebay either. I think the Nagurski should have a least a 1.0 separation between it and the next highest card. Check comparable PSA 6 prices as they are more indicative of true value. When a card sells super high once or twice because it is super low pop, it doesnt necessarily mean its value is that high. I like where the Bednarik and Grange sit. I think they are dead on.
To address the others:
1966 Bob Brown -- Agreed, needs a .5 bump. 1952 Art Donovan -- Gifford has always sold higher in the past Large and Small..In PSA 6 Large via VCP--Gifford PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $209.21, Donovan PSA 6-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $163.68..PSA 6 is the highest card that both have listed in VCP. 1948 Pete Pihos --Just doesn't sell as high as Turner..PSA 6 have average prices of Turner-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $355.42, Pihos-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $231.34 1948 Alex Wojciechowicz -- PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $895.35..To compare with above--PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $78.80 1952 Yale Lary --Agreed, this one sells closer to Gifford level, needs a .5 bump 1965 Willie Brown -- A "high end" 5.5, but not a $1,000+ card to reach the 6.0 level. Ive never seen one for $1,000+. 1984 Jim Kelly -- My cut off for 1.5 was around $45, which the Kelly 8 sells at $45, the Montana at $80...Same class of cards, we only have 1-10 weighting..lol...Kelly should be higher than say 1984 Jackie Slater PSA 8. 1974 Joe Delamielluere -- PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $46.20, Hannah PSA 8-PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $36.90 1965 Charley Taylor -PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $197.39, Warfield-PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $144.73
The Eller 8 sells PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $43.53..It came in just under the $45 for 1.5, but kept it with the .5 higher because of the strength of the PSA 9's.
Good comments guys, I will make the 2 changes stated above before sending this off to PSA tomorrow, If on the fence on the Eller. I could go either way, but probably leaning to 1.5. Anyone else have opinions on the Eller?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Having just bought an Eller 9, I say keep it at 1.5. Seriously though, you can't weight an Eller and say a Slater both at 1, so 1.5 is good for the older, non toughies like Eller IMO.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Andy sorry was not trying to shoot you in the foot on your new 9 lol.
It was just the 1 card that comes to mind that sells below smr on what i think of as vintage the 61 fleers to some point also but that Jason picked up on already. Again that does not figure nines that are solid in price
It really does not matter to me but thinking it over i must agree any 60,s cards should be something ahead of a 89 Score for example so i would say leave it at the 1.5 ,Even as a easy 60,s card it still as much harder then a 89 score in a 8
Maybe the next time weights are ajusted we could even look at quarter grades most sets have them
Jason @ Marc great job as always mucho thanks for your time and effort
You make good points on all the follow ups, I still don't get the Pihos , you said you were going off PSA 8 grades well to my knowledge I've only seen 1 Pihos sell on the bay in the last 5 years and Turner I have record of 3 selling. Last psa 8 Pihos sold for $1,335.00 -- I have record of 3 Turners selling on ebay Last one sold for $2011.00 and the previous two sold for $1380.00 and 1325.00.
And the pops are identical and its not like either has a Big time star type name to drum up the price
Pihos psa 8 pop 8's - 10 9's - 3 total 13 Turner psa 8 pop 8's - 12 9's - 1 total 13
When the dust settles there both 1500 give or take 100. Again just my opion . Thanks Jason
I like the new weight scales. Dan there have been at least 2 48 pihos' on ebay...I know Joe bought 2 for sure. They do not sell for more than turner. Bob brown is a $500+ card all day...I would pay that easily as I need one. I like the new diff between older vs newer. My set may take a hit as I lack many of the 48 leafs.......I think the matson and larry 52 bows are a tad light....you almost never see them in a psa 8. I wouldn't have lowered the namath either. GEEEEEEs did ya have to lower Jim Otto down
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Thank you. Great work. I agree 100%. Also nice recommendations by Dan.
I think all members of registry need to follow up Jason's email with an email supporting and concurring with the necessity to adjust grade weights for an accurate set rating.
Marc.
Have shine box will travel ------------ BOBBY ORR THE BEST THERE WAS! THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE! ------------
Great job - I agree w/ the need to adjust the weights to actual sales data.
Here is an idea - maybe SMR should be based upon VCP? Just a thought.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
That's a whole-nother battle..lol...If we can't get the weights updated via realized prices, then that's our only option. To try and get the SMR changed/fixed. That's been an issue as long as PSA has been around I think.
I actually like the SMR being off base sometimes, because there are sellers that still actually use it, and when thosae same guys still list HOF RCs on ebay at SMR???? Well, I need those types of deals to survive with the big dogs around here..lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason or Mark, What is the weighting table? 0-44.99=1 45-?=1.5............. thanks >>
Vince, its not really a set in stone number. My 1st goal is/was to ensure that no card that is more valuable has a grade weight LOWER than a less valuable card. So a $200 card won't be a 2.5 weight and a $300 card a 2.0 weight. The weights are somewhat broken down into brackets, but again not with a set in stone to the penny amount. But here are the general brackets based on current value of lowest and highest in the weight:
1.0= $1.05 to $40.70 1.5= $43.53 to $92.29 2.0= $102.31 to $153.24 2.5= $167.51 to $248.75 3.0= $264.08 to $348.77 3.5= $361.75 to $432.98 4.0= $467.00 to $510.00 4.5= $541.12 to $596.00 5.0= $623.25 to $750.00 5.5= $814.56 to $913.05 6.0= $1005.00 to $1497.30 6.5= $1540.87 to $1852.50 7.0= $1945.40 to $2449.24 7.5= $2542.55 to $3200.00 8.0= $3806.07 to $5066.60 8.5= $5399.40 to $7304.35 9.0= $12,925.00 to $38561.10 10.0= $58,417.50
With some of the higher weight, lower pop cards there weren't any PSA 8's in VCP. I used some of my historic tracking sheets that i used to do manually going back to 2003, but again some of these I've simply never seen sell, or sold so long ago, the old price is no longer valid. With the 48s, 35s and 52s I tended to go with the highest common denominator which was typically PSA 6 or PSA 7. That way I could compare the prices of each card within the set directly and come up with a fair estimate of PSA 8 value.
I know it's not perfect, honestly there probably isn't a perfect system. Even using realized price averages, you have the occasional really high (like the 13K Grange 8) or an occasional really low selling card. In those cases, I tried to err on the side of what the card most commonly sold for. Like the Grange, which had never sold higher than 8K before, which is why I left it as 8.5 rather than putting it in the 9.0 categoty based on one sale.
I'll be sending the spreadsheet to Cosetta today and I'll hope for the best.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Look out Jon here i come lol
If Jason and Joe all you fab five guys would just donate 1 card to my cause it would go a long way
come on guys show the new guy some love guys
I'm not alone, Peter King on ESPN Radio said " Randy Moss is no lock to ever make the HOF" King also said he's talked to many HOF voters that will never vote for Moss regardless of what he does the rest of his career. This is based on the fact that he so good now and so bad the last 3 years. So what I getting too is Randy's a QUITTER !!!!
If Randy played the way he's playing this year , he's a lock to put up 1200 yards and 10 tds it doesn't matter where he plays.....
Winning brings out the best in everyone !! I've seen the real Moss when he was losing.
Warren Sapp is a HOF , but might have to wait awhile.
Just venting .
He will almost undoubtedly be chosen as 1st Team All-Decade at DT. He has the 2nd most All-Pro votes at DT from 2000-2006, and I don't see anyone catching his vote count unless Haynesworth gets 40+ votes this year and as well as 2008 and 2009...This doesn't even take into account come of his most dominant years which were in the late 1990's...He was voted 2nd Team on the 1990's All-Decade squad already...
He has 7 Pro Bowls, 4 time 1st team All-Pro, Defensive Player of the Year award and a Super Bowl ring. He was the anchor on one of the dominant defenses of the decade with the Bucs...You can't tell me Derrick Brooks is the only HOF from that great Bucs defensive run, and I think Sapp gets in over any other Bucs player besides Brooks. People forget he had 10 sacks in 2006 with the Raiders...It was a quiet 10 since the team sucked so badly overall, but the defense was actually pretty descent and Sapp was a big part of that.
Again, next week once all award and All-Pros for 2007 are published we will run a vote for all possible additions to the Future Modern HOF set, and Sapp is one of those we will vote on.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Moss is and never will be a HOF and will NEVER be in my set. I've watched too many Raider games as he jogged up and down the field collecting a pay check. He gave up on the Raiders and Vikings the prior 3 years. If he was such a great player this year why couldn't manage a typical Moss season. A true HOF is a leader good or bad . Moss is with out a doudt one of the most talented players to ever play the game, but to blame his shameful play on "NFL pergatory" . Yeah Raiders I get it, is such a lame cop out . I watched Jerry Rice at the end of his career on the same bad team yet he played .
I'm not alone, Peter King on ESPN Radio said " Randy Moss is no lock to ever make the HOF" King also said he's talked to many HOF voters that will never vote for Moss regardless of what he does the rest of his career. This is based on the fact that he so good now and so bad the last 3 years. So what I getting too is Randy's a QUITTER !!!!
If Randy played the way he's playing this year , he's a lock to put up 1200 yards and 10 tds it doesn't matter where he plays.....
Winning brings out the best in everyone !! I've seen the real Moss when he was losing.
Warren Sapp is a HOF , but might have to wait awhile.
Just venting . >>
I wouldn't call Moss a LOCK either, but I'd put him at about 85% right now...A couple more dominant years and he will be a 100% lock regardless of how he loafed it. I don't disagree he quit on the Raiders, and if the Patriots weren't 16-0 he might have done the same to them...When he is ON and playing? He's easily the best WR in the league since Jerry Rice...I don't think you'll be able to keep his numbers and his dominance out of the HOF. Winning tends to make people forget about the bad things..Will Belichek be a HOF coach? Of course he will, even with the scandal. What about Merriman and his steroids suspension? He'll still be a HOF if he keeps playing at a Pro Bowl level down the road...The NFL is a bad boy sport. Guys are forgiven much quicker than other sports if they outperform the competition.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I tried to argue last year that I didn't think either senior nominee would get in
(I just didn't think they picked even close to the strongest candidates)
I was met with this strong rebuttal:
"There is NO WAY that will happen.
Here's why, the voters put ALOT of stock into the Senior committee. The Senior committee is actually made up of 9 of the most trusted members of the voters who select the HOFers. These 2 guys are automatic finalists. All they require is 80% confirmed on a yes or no ballot. The guys who will be arguing for their induction in the voting room are the very guys who SELECTED them.
There are so many deserving Senior candidates out there, it would be a crushing blow to have TWO Senior candidates denied. They would probably have to re-vamp the whole process of Senior's if that happened. I'd say 50/50 that both of them go in, but 100% that at least one of them WILL go in.
Just my opinion of course,
Jason "
Now you are of the opinion that neither will get in.
Has something changed in the process that has led you to this conclusion?
Maybe this will cause them to "re-vamp" the entire process?!?!
With the candidates they have chosen the last few years, maybe it needs to be re-vamped!
Gabbs
<< <i>
Now you are of the opinion that neither will get in.
Has something changed in the process that has led you to this conclusion?
Maybe this will cause them to "re-vamp" the entire process?!?!
With the candidates they have chosen the last few years, maybe it needs to be re-vamped!
Gabbs >>
Gabbs, if I remember that was like the day of or day after the senior selections. Since then, everything I've read or heard any of the HOF voters say about the current 2 Senior candidates has been negative. Which is why at this point, I'm thinking their is a strong possibility NEITHER will get in. But what I said then is still the valid arguement FOR these guys. Another issue with the HOF voting is that it is still conducted by secret ballot. So nobody knows who exactly voted for or against which players. All we have to go by are the few voters who aren't afraid to make their vote and their opinions public. Even then, they COULD say one thing and actually vote another way. One day, I hope they make the vote public and show who voted for who and so on. It would provide some reasoning/explanation to how some of these things turn out.
The process has been evolving changing every year. I don't think they'll ever totally re-do/re-vamp it, but lets hope they continue to improve the process and make the football HOF the most valid selection of true HOF caliber players of any sport.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
In 2003 eight defensive linemen were on the NFC Pro Bowl squad. The most in four years. Three players were on the squad at Warren's position. He got on the squad because of name only not by his defensive play. It also helped that he made headlines by catching TD's on offense.
He has done many stupid things on and off the field simlar to Moss like actions
When he ran through the Steelers warm ups and started a pregame fight
The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach
Ejected from a game this year for swearing and bumping a ref
His agent is Drew Rosenhaus (just hate the guy)
The guy will get in but sure as sh1t he will not be a first ballot guy. But I pray every night that he does not get enough votes.
<< <i>The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach >>
Everything about that play and the aftermath was despicable.
<< <i>Warren Sapps 2003 Pro Bowl selection was complete crap.
In 2003 eight defensive linemen were on the NFC Pro Bowl squad. The most in four years. Three players were on the squad at Warren's position. He got on the squad because of name only not by his defensive play. It also helped that he made headlines by catching TD's on offense.
He has done many stupid things on and off the field simlar to Moss like actions
When he ran through the Steelers warm ups and started a pregame fight
The blind side he gave to Chad Clifton and the verbal childish attack to Chad's coach
Ejected from a game this year for swearing and bumping a ref
His agent is Drew Rosenhaus (just hate the guy)
The guy will get in but sure as sh1t he will not be a first ballot guy. But I pray every night that he does not get enough votes. >>
Agreed, no chance of being a first ballot guy..He'll probably wait a few years because of all his negatives..One you forgot is that he fell in the NFL draft because of rumors of a hot drug test..
Definitely not a model citizen, but can't argue he was a dominant, at times unstoppable DT.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The new verbage should solve a couple of longstanding issues, one of which was brought to the forefront again when a request to add a Bill Willis oddball (NON rookie card) to the HOF Browns set was made last week. It's the same reason Willis isn't in the HOF RC set..He doesn't HAVE a rookie card from a mainstream issue.
The only floating issue still out there will be the individually numbered cards and how low PSA will eventually go in which cards they will accept for these sets in the future..Unofficially, here in discussions, we've always came up with /999 as the lowest number, but we until we come upon the situation and have to resolve it officially we'll probably still be in guess mode on that one.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There's a good reason the Patriots got him for only a 4th round pick - everyone in the league had seen his behavior and no one wanted to offer more (several teams offered 5th rounders) for a guy who had quit on multiple teams.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
<< <i>Drew Rosenhaus is the worst thing to happen to the NFL >>
Ditto for Scott Boras in baseball.
HUTSON BRINGS DOWN THE HOUSE!
By Pat Livingston
Originally published in the Pittsburgh Press
The Steelers' rookie was upset. An All-America in a pro camp, he couldn't get over how the Green Bay Packers had walloped a great College All-Star team, 45-28, because the Stars didn't have a defense to stop a Packer receiver, Don Hutson, short of the goal line.
The rookie was Merlyn Condit, the finest running back who ever played at Carnegie Tech, getting ready for practice, as Tex Mayhew, the trainer, taped Condit's ankles, the Tartan grad confessed he was disillusioned in his debut against the pros.
"There's no excuse for a receiver to get open like that," Condit grumbled to Mayhew and Walt Kiesling, the Steeler's coach. "You can't tell me a good back, if he sets his mind to it, can't cover a receiver. Nobody's so good that sombody can't cover him."
"No one man can cover Don Hutson," shrugged the phlegmatic Kiesling. "The way you play Hutson, you double-team him -- or shoot him." Mayhew, strapping another strip of tape on Condit's ankle, agreed with the coach.
"Well, when we play the Packers, I'll cover Hutson," volunteered Condit. "He won't catch all those passes on me."
Kiesling and Mayhew traded glances, smiling at each other.
A couple of weeks later, in a game against the Steelers, Hutson caught the first 10 passes thrown his way. The Packers, who with the Chicago Bears dominated the NFL in those days, had the Steelers bagged by halftime.
Now this is not to embarrass Condit, a brilliant pro, but to recall the excellence of Hutson, the one player who, more than any other, symbolizes the Green Bay Packers. Hutson, the finest receiver I've ever seen, is the innovator who did more than anyone else's to make pro football the wide-open game it became.
Single-handedly, Hutson, the receiver who invented such routes as the Z-in and z-out, the button hook, the comeback and the hook-and-go, brought sophisticated passing to football. In a defensive game, he was the prototype offensive end.
Don't look for him in the record books, for most of the marks he established are gone. Hutson played in an era when NFL schedules called for 10 or 12 games a season, rather than the 14 and 16 of modern times.
He never caught 600 passes, receivers like Charley Taylor, Don Maynard or Raymond Berry did, but were you to extend his four-catch-per-game average to the number of games these fellows played, Hutson would be the only receiver in history to have caught 700.
And no receiver in the NFL, no matter how long he played, ever matched the 99 touchdown (passes) Hutson -- often the only receiver in the pattern -- scored during his 11 years with the Pack.
I got to thinking about Hutson. Unlike Berry, who is associated with Johnny Unitas, or Taylor, who dredges up memories of Sonny Jurgensen, Hutson dominated quarterbacks whoever they were, Cecil Isbell or Clarke Hinkle. In the '40s in the NFL, he was the man. He dazzled the game.
I recall a game while I and my Press city-side colleague, John Place, were at the Navy's midshipmen's school at Northwestern. Hutson, who would score 17 touchdowns that year, was on a streak, scoring a touchdown or more in an impressive string of games.
This game involved the Bears. Two years before, the Bears had walloped the Redskins, 73-0, and had lost only to the Pack, 16-14 -- on a Don Hutson field goal, of course -- during an incredible streak of 28 games. Wrigley Field was jammed. Although he couldn't get me a ticket, George Halas arranged with his brother, Frank, to pass me through the gate.
As I said, the Bears were awesome. With two minutes to play, they scored their final touchdown, taking a 38-0 lead against the hated Packers. More important to Halas, the Bears had stopped Hutson's touchdown spree -- or had they?
Taking the kickoff, with nothing at stake but Hutson's streak, the beaten Packers started to drive. Throwing on every down, usually to Hutson, Isbell worked the ball in for a first- and 10 around the Chicago 20, with seconds left to play.
The mob was wild. Hutson was trailed by Bears wherever he went. And as Isbell's three passes fell incomplete, the Packers had fourth and 10, some 20 yards short of the end zone, the clock running down.
Then came the most incredible premeditated play I ever saw on a football field. It was no accident. There were no disputes. At its completion, every article that wasn't nailed down came sailing out of the stands. Hutson, the enemy, drew a standing ovation, the wildest demonstration I ever saw bestowed on an antagonist. Lining up as a flanker, harassed by three Bears, the cagy old Alabamian ran a simple post pattern, diagonally in on the twin-poled uprights, Bears convoying him, stride by stride.
As the four men raced under the bar, Hutson hooked his elbow around the upright, stopped abruptly, flung his body sharply left and left the red-faced Bears scrambling around in their cleats. He stood alone in the end zone as he casually gathered Isbell's throw to his chest.
"I'll never forget that pass," said Harry Clark, the old West Virginia star, when I ran into him a couple of months ago. "How could I?
"Halas was fit to be tied," recalled Clark, one of Chicago's defenders on the play. "He sent us in there, three of us, expressly to cover Hutson. That's all we had to do. Oh, were we sick.
"Do you know who the other defenders were?" asked Clark as an after-thought.
I didn't recall.
Clark smiled. "Dante Magnani and George McAfee," said he.
"Could you pick any defenders better than them?"
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Great Article. Enjoyable (made me chuckle) and enlightening (I didn't realize that he invented those pass patterns).
Marc
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
------------
BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
------------
Jerry Rice was great but Hutson started it all and did it in an era of running. Rice did it in an era of the West Coast Offense.
Don Hutson is the best there ever was at the WR position. As the article said he never had a great QB throwing him the ball or had a great supporting cast.
Jerry Rice had Pro Bowl and All Pro QB's ever year of his career with the 49ers. Montana, Young and Garcia. Without these QB's and the "system" Rice's number would have not been as good. Still good but not the ridiculous numbers they are now. Look at Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, John Taylor, Brent Jones, and JJ Stokes. These guys pulled down 50+ passes or made All Pro or Pro Bowls regularly with Young and or Montana. These guys would be 20 reception guys on any other team during the 80's and 90's.
I find it very interesting that so many people just assume Rice is the best.
<< <i>I had never heard the story about him using the goal post for an assist in his route. I wish there were footage of that event...lol
Jason >>
I saw this play at the Packer Hall of Fame in Green Bay. It was of course black and white but it was on a highlight reel from the early years of the Pack. That is the only place I have seen it.
Doc
<< <i>
<< <i>I had never heard the story about him using the goal post for an assist in his route. I wish there were footage of that event...lol
Jason >>
I saw this play at the Packer Hall of Fame in Green Bay. It was of course black and white but it was on a highlight reel from the early years of the Pack. That is the only place I have seen it. >>
Wow, that means the footage exists...New mission for me to find it! I've got to see how that played out..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think Hutson was actually FASTER than Rice..Huston was said to have run 9.5 second, 100 yards.
Don Hutson- All-Time Great
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Makes the PSA Hutson auto I just picked up all the more special to me!
Bob...
<< <i>Awesome video. Thanks for sharing. Man it is a major bummer that Hutson didn't have a mainstream card (Wheaties not withstanding) issued during his playing days. Imagine how valuable a PSA 9 '35 Chicle Hutson would be. WOW! >>
I'd bet very close to Nagurski in price...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Don Hutson is the best WR in the history of the NFL. PERIOD!
Jerry Rice was great but Hutson started it all and did it in an era of running. Rice did it in an era of the West Coast Offense.
Don Hutson is the best there ever was at the WR position. As the article said he never had a great QB throwing him the ball or had a great supporting cast.
Jerry Rice had Pro Bowl and All Pro QB's ever year of his career with the 49ers. Montana, Young and Garcia. Without these QB's and the "system" Rice's number would have not been as good. Still good but not the ridiculous numbers they are now. Look at Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, John Taylor, Brent Jones, and JJ Stokes. These guys pulled down 50+ passes or made All Pro or Pro Bowls regularly with Young and or Montana. These guys would be 20 reception guys on any other team during the 80's and 90's.
I find it very interesting that so many people just assume Rice is the best. >>
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Copy and past below of the list. Card number, card name, current weight and proposed weight based on realized prices. Take a look and see if there are any card you think need to be moved up or down and we will discuss it. If PSA decides they still want ONLY SMR priced weighting, our goal to get this fixed will be to get the SMR fixed.
Card number Card Current Weight New Weight
4 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS HAROLD (RED) GRANGE 8.5 8.5
6 1933 GOUDEY SPORTS KINGS JIM THORPE 8.5 8.5
1 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE EARL (DUTCH) CLARK 8 8.5
7 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE KEN STRONG 7 8
10 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE CLIFF BATTLES 7 7.5
11 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE ALBERT (TURK) EDWARDS 7 8
24 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE CLARKE HINKLE 7 8.5
34 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE BRONKO NAGURSKI 10 10
36 1948 BOWMAN CLYDE (BULLDOG) TURNER 4.5 7
61 1948 BOWMAN ALEX WOJCIECHOWICZ 3 5.5
63 1948 BOWMAN PETE PIHOS 4.5 6
1 1948 LEAF SID LUCKMAN 6.5 9
4 1948 LEAF DOAK WALKER 4.5 8
6 1948 LEAF BOBBY LAYNE 7 8
19 1948 LEAF GEORGE MCAFEE 4.5 6
22 1948 LEAF STEVE VAN BUREN 5 7.5
26 1948 LEAF BOB WATERFIELD 5 7.5
29 1948 LEAF CHARLEY TRIPPI 4.5 7
34 1948 LEAF SAMMY BAUGH 7.5 9
36 1948 LEAF BILL DUDLEY 4.5 8
37 1948 LEAF GEORGE CONNOR 3.5 7
52 1948 LEAF LEO NOMELLINI 6.5 8.5
54 1948 LEAF CHUCK BEDNARIK 6.5 9
5 1950 BOWMAN Y.A. TITTLE 5 6
6 1950 BOWMAN LOU GROZA 3.5 4
9 1950 BOWMAN TONY CANADEO 2.5 6.5
35 1950 BOWMAN JOE PERRY 3.5 4
43 1950 BOWMAN MARION MOTLEY 3.5 5.5
45 1950 BOWMAN OTTO GRAHAM 5.5 6
51 1950 BOWMAN TOM FEARS 3 3
52 1950 BOWMAN ELROY HIRSCH 3.5 5
78 1950 BOWMAN DANTE LAVELLI 3 3.5
4 1951 BOWMAN NORM VAN BROCKLIN 6 6
21 1951 BOWMAN ARNIE WEINMEISTER 2 4
62 1951 BOWMAN LOU CREEKMUR 2 5.5
91 1951 BOWMAN EMLEN TUNNELL 2.5 5.5
96 1951 BOWMAN ERNIE STAUTNER 2.5 3.5
16 1952 BOWMAN FRANK GIFFORD 5.5 6.5
23 1952 BOWMAN GINO MARCHETTI 4 6
29 1952 BOWMAN HUGH MCELHENNY 4 6
46 1952 BOWMAN ART DONOVAN 5 6
57 1952 BOWMAN WAYNE MILLNER 3 5
85 1952 BOWMAN ANDY ROBUSTELLI 4 6
99 1952 BOWMAN JOE STYDAHAR 5.5 7.5
127 1952 BOWMAN OLLIE MATSON 5.5 7
129 1952 BOWMAN JACK CHRISTIANSEN 4 6
140 1952 BOWMAN YALE LARY 4 6
4 1954 BOWMAN DOUG ATKINS 1.5 2.5
23 1954 BOWMAN GEORGE BLANDA 3.5 4
2 1955 BOWMAN MIKE MCCORMACK 2 2.5
14 1955 BOWMAN LEN FORD 2 2
42 1955 BOWMAN JOHN HENRY JOHNSON 2 2
70 1955 BOWMAN JIM RINGO 2.5 6
101 1955 BOWMAN BOB ST. CLAIR 2.5 6.5
119 1955 BOWMAN FRANK GATSKI 2 3
28 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN MEL HEIN 2 2.5
56 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN ERNIE NEVERS 2.5 3
64 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN BENNY FREIDMAN 1.5 2.5
66 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN FRANK (BRUISER) KINARD 1.5 2.5
84 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN CLARENCE(ACE) PARKER 2 3
97 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN DON HUTSON 3.5 5.5
100 1955 TOPPS ALL AMERICAN WILBUR (FATS) HENRY 3.5 5.5
41 1956 TOPPS ROOSEVELT BROWN 1.5 2.5
44 1956 TOPPS JOE SCHMIDT 2 2.5
47 1956 TOPPS BILL GEORGE 1.5 2.5
60 1956 TOPPS LENNY MOORE 3 4.5
71 1956 TOPPS STAN JONES 1.5 3
85 1957 TOPPS DICK (NIGHT TRAIN) LANE 2 3.5
94 1957 TOPPS RAYMOND BERRY 3 6.5
119 1957 TOPPS BART STARR 6.5 7
124 1957 TOPPS TOMMY MCDONALD 2 3.5
138 1957 TOPPS JOHNNY UNITAS 6 6
151 1957 TOPPS PAUL HORNUNG 6 7
62 1958 TOPPS JIM BROWN 6.5 7
90 1958 TOPPS SONNY JURGENSEN 3 3
51 1959 TOPPS SAM HUFF 2 2
132 1959 TOPPS JIM PARKER 1.5 1.5
140 1959 TOPPS BOBBY MITCHELL 1.5 1.5
155 1959 TOPPS JIM TAYLOR 1.5 1.5
118 1960 FLEER RON MIX 2 2
56 1960 TOPPS FORREST GREGG 1.5 1.5
197 1961 FLEER JIM OTTO 2 1.5
215 1961 FLEER DON MAYNARD 2 1.5
45 1961 TOPPS HENRY JORDAN 1.5 2.5
16 1962 FLEER BILLY SHAW 1.5 4.5
17 1962 TOPPS MIKE DITKA 5 6
90 1962 TOPPS FRAN TARKENTON 5 5.5
10 1963 FLEER NICK BUONICONTI 2 4.5
47 1963 FLEER LEN DAWSON 3.5 3.5
72 1963 FLEER LANCE ALWORTH 3.5 4.5
44 1963 TOPPS DAVID (DEACON) JONES 2 2
82 1963 TOPPS BOB LILLY 3 4
95 1963 TOPPS WILLIE WOOD 1.5 2
96 1963 TOPPS RAY NITSCHKE 2.5 3.5
155 1963 TOPPS LARRY WILSON 1.5 1.5
3 1964 PHILADELPHIA JOHN MACKEY 1.5 2
71 1964 PHILADELPHIA HERB ADDERLEY 1.5 1.5
72 1964 PHILADELPHIA WILLIE DAVIS 1.5 1.5
91 1964 PHILADELPHIA MERLIN OLSEN 1.5 1.5
161 1964 PHILADELPHIA JIMMY JOHNSON 1.5 1.5
90 1964 TOPPS BOBBY BELL 1.5 2
92 1964 TOPPS BUCK BUCHANAN 1.5 2
41 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL WARFIELD 2 2
53 1965 PHILADELPHIA MEL RENFRO 2 3.5
105 1965 PHILADELPHIA CARL ELLER 1.5 1.5
189 1965 PHILADELPHIA PAUL KRAUSE 1.5 2
195 1965 PHILADELPHIA CHARLEY TAYLOR 2 2.5
46 1965 TOPPS WILLIE BROWN 2.5 5
122 1965 TOPPS JOE NAMATH 9 8.5
133 1965 TOPPS FRED BILETNIKOFF 4.5 5
31 1966 PHILADELPHIA DICK BUTKUS 4.5 6
38 1966 PHILADELPHIA GALE SAYERS 4.5 4
45 1966 PHILADELPHIA GENE HICKERSON 1 3
134 1966 PHILADELPHIA BOB BROWN 1 3
43 1967 PHILADELPHIA LEROY KELLY 2 5.5
165 1967 PHILADELPHIA JACKIE SMITH 2 2.5
178 1967 PHILADELPHIA DAVE WILCOX 1.5 2.5
196 1968 TOPPS BOB GRIESE 2.5 3.5
120 1969 TOPPS LARRY CSONKA 2 2
25 1970 TOPPS JAN STENERUD 1 1
43 1970 TOPPS ELVIN BETHEA 1 1
59 1970 TOPPS ALAN PAGE 1 1
75 1970 TOPPS LEM BARNEY 1 1
90 1970 TOPPS O.J. SIMPSON 2 2
151 1970 TOPPS TOM MACK 1 1
113 1971 TOPPS KEN HOUSTON 1 1.5
114 1971 TOPPS WILLIE LANIER 1 1
156 1971 TOPPS TERRY BRADSHAW 4 4
188 1971 TOPPS ROGER WEHRLI 1 2.5
210 1971 TOPPS CHARLIE SANDERS 1 3
245 1971 TOPPS JOE GREENE 2 2.5
13 1972 TOPPS JOHN RIGGINS 1 1
93 1972 TOPPS TED HENDRICKS 1.5 1
104 1972 TOPPS RON YARY 1 1
186 1972 TOPPS GENE UPSHAW 1 1
200 1972 TOPPS ROGER STAUBACH 3 4
240 1972 TOPPS LARRY LITTLE 1 1
244 1972 TOPPS CHARLIE JOINER 1 1
316 1972 TOPPS RAYFIELD WRIGHT 1.5 2
77 1973 TOPPS ART SHELL 1 1
89 1973 TOPPS FRANCO HARRIS 1.5 1.5
115 1973 TOPPS JACK HAM 1.5 1.5
322 1973 TOPPS DAN DIERDORF 1 1
341 1973 TOPPS JIM LANGER 1 1
343 1973 TOPPS JACK YOUNGBLOOD 1 1
183 1974 TOPPS JOE DELAMIELLEURE 1 1.5
383 1974 TOPPS JOHN HANNAH 1 1
12 1975 TOPPS MEL BLOUNT 1 1
282 1975 TOPPS LYNN SWANN 1.5 1.5
367 1975 TOPPS DAN FOUTS 1 1.5
148 1976 TOPPS WALTER PAYTON 2.5 2.5
158 1976 TOPPS RANDY WHITE 1 1
220 1976 TOPPS JACK LAMBERT 1 1
29 1977 TOPPS LEE ROY SELMON 1 1
50 1977 TOPPS MIKE HAYNES 1 1
99 1977 TOPPS MIKE WEBSTER 1 1
146 1977 TOPPS HARRY CARSON 1 1
177 1977 TOPPS STEVE LARGENT 1 1
380 1977 TOPPS DAVE CASPER 1 1
315 1978 TOPPS TONY DORSETT 1 1
320 1978 TOPPS JOHN STALLWORTH 1 1
308 1979 TOPPS OZZIE NEWSOME 1 1
310 1979 TOPPS JAMES LOFTON 1 1
390 1979 TOPPS EARL CAMPBELL 1 1
150 1981 TOPPS KELLEN WINSLOW 1 1
216 1981 TOPPS JOE MONTANA 2 1.5
316 1981 TOPPS DAN HAMPTON 1 1
51 1982 TOPPS ANTHONY MUNOZ 1 1
434 1982 TOPPS LAWRENCE TAYLOR 1 1
486 1982 TOPPS RONNIE LOTT 1 1
38 1983 TOPPS MIKE SINGLETARY 1 1
294 1983 TOPPS MARCUS ALLEN 1 1
63 1984 TOPPS JOHN ELWAY 1.5 1.5
111 1984 TOPPS HOWIE LONG 1 1
123 1984 TOPPS DAN MARINO 1.5 1
129 1984 TOPPS DWIGHT STEPHENSON 1 1
280 1984 TOPPS ERIC DICKERSON 1 1
286 1984 TOPPS JACKIE SLATER 1 1
36 1984 TOPPS USFL JIM KELLY 1.5 1.5
52 1984 TOPPS USFL STEVE YOUNG 1.5 1.5
58 1984 TOPPS USFL REGGIE WHITE 1 1
251 1985 TOPPS WARREN MOON 1 1
253 1985 TOPPS MIKE MUNCHAK 1 1
18 1989 SCORE MICHAEL IRVIN 1 1
109 1989 SCORE BRUCE MATTHEWS 1 1
211 1989 SCORE THURMAN THOMAS 1 1
257 1989 SCORE BARRY SANDERS 1 1
270 1989 SCORE TROY AIKMAN 1 1
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M. >>
So you are saying Herber and Isbel are in the same class as Young and Montana? When people ask, who are the best QB's of all time I am sure no one mentions Herber or Isbel but they all mention Montana and Young. Herber and Isbel both lead the league in passing with Hutson but their stats are lost in the midst of an era where teams consistantly rushed for more yards than they passed. You don't see that nowadays. Can you imagine the Jag's leading the league in rushing with 3500 yards? And only have 1500 or so yards passing?
<< <i>
<< <i>
I wouldn't quite say that Hutson never had a great QB throwing to him. How about Arnie Herber and Cecil Isbel?
Greg M. >>
So you are saying Herber and Isbel are in the same class as Young and Montana? When people ask, who are the best QB's of all time I am sure no one mentions Herber or Isbel but they all mention Montana and Young. Herber and Isbel both lead the league in passing with Hutson but their stats are lost in the midst of an era where teams consistantly rushed for more yards than they passed. You don't see that nowadays. Can you imagine the Jag's leading the league in rushing with 3500 yards? And only have 1500 or so yards passing? >>
You can't compare Herber/Isbel to Montana/Young - you're comparing apples with oranges. You could argue that Hutson MADE his quaterbacks look better - but then again, you could make the same argument with nearly any Quarterback / WR HOF duos.
I think you have to look at what they accomplished in the era that they played. To have 1500 yards passing in a year now is nothing - but back in the 30's you would likely lead the league.
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
No biggie but it`s a 1 in my opinion based on smr and real prices
EDITED TO ad that my eller comment based on 8 prices nines still sell for more then smr
1966 Bob Brown -- has to be a 350 to 450 card , although I think it will drop in value as time passes
1952 Art Donovan -- 1200 to 1500 same value as a Gifford
1948 Pete Pihos -- super tough the last one sold for a bargain of 1350 range , should have the same value as the Bull dog turner
1948 Alex Wojciechowicz -- not as tough as the other two bowmans, but still 1K card maybe a .5 bump
1952 Yale Lary -- tougher card than Christianson , Robustelli , Marchetti - maybe a .5 bump
1965 Willie Brown -- another super tough card at least the same value as a Tarkenton probably much higher and easily one of the toughest 60's cards to find psa 8 .
1984 Jim Kelly -- .5 too high same value as a Joe Montana 8
1974 Joe Delamielluere -- .5 too high 45 dollar card not any higher than a Hannah.
1965 Charley Taylor - .5 to high, same value as a Warfield
Just some thoughts, although again I think you did a great job.
Thanks Dan
<< <i>1966 Bob Brown -- has to be a 350 to 450 card , although I think it will drop in value as time passes >>
Much Higher than 350-450 ......Very low pop....
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Jason & Marc, thanks for taking the time to do this.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Just a thought.
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
To address the others:
1966 Bob Brown -- Agreed, needs a .5 bump.
1952 Art Donovan -- Gifford has always sold higher in the past Large and Small..In PSA 6 Large via VCP--Gifford PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $209.21, Donovan PSA 6-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $163.68..PSA 6 is the highest card that both have listed in VCP.
1948 Pete Pihos --Just doesn't sell as high as Turner..PSA 6 have average prices of Turner-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $355.42, Pihos-PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $231.34
1948 Alex Wojciechowicz -- PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $895.35..To compare with above--PSA 6 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $78.80
1952 Yale Lary --Agreed, this one sells closer to Gifford level, needs a .5 bump
1965 Willie Brown -- A "high end" 5.5, but not a $1,000+ card to reach the 6.0 level. Ive never seen one for $1,000+.
1984 Jim Kelly -- My cut off for 1.5 was around $45, which the Kelly 8 sells at $45, the Montana at $80...Same class of cards, we only have 1-10 weighting..lol...Kelly should be higher than say 1984 Jackie Slater PSA 8.
1974 Joe Delamielluere -- PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $46.20, Hannah PSA 8-PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $36.90
1965 Charley Taylor -PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $197.39, Warfield-PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $144.73
The Eller 8 sells PSA 8 - Last 5 Sales Average Price: $43.53..It came in just under the $45 for 1.5, but kept it with the .5 higher because of the strength of the PSA 9's.
Good comments guys, I will make the 2 changes stated above before sending this off to PSA tomorrow, If on the fence on the Eller. I could go either way, but probably leaning to 1.5. Anyone else have opinions on the Eller?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
It was just the 1 card that comes to mind that sells below smr on what i think of as vintage the 61 fleers to some point also but that Jason picked up on already.
Again that does not figure nines that are solid in price
It really does not matter to me but thinking it over i must agree any 60,s cards should be something ahead of a 89 Score for example so i would say leave it at the 1.5 ,Even as a easy 60,s card it still as much harder then a 89 score in a 8
Maybe the next time weights are ajusted we could even look at quarter grades most sets have them
Jason @ Marc great job as always mucho thanks for your time and effort
You did a great job with the weighting. Thanks for all the work you do for the set.
Here's hoping PSA goes for it !!
Also here is the latest addition to my collection (thought you might like it!)
Nice win for the Jags! eh??
Gabbs
What is the weighting table?
0-44.99=1
45-?=1.5.............
thanks
Last psa 8 Pihos sold for $1,335.00 --
I have record of 3 Turners selling on ebay Last one sold for $2011.00 and the previous two sold for $1380.00 and 1325.00.
And the pops are identical and its not like either has a Big time star type name to drum up the price
Pihos psa 8 pop 8's - 10 9's - 3 total 13
Turner psa 8 pop 8's - 12 9's - 1 total 13
When the dust settles there both 1500 give or take 100. Again just my opion .
Thanks Jason
I like the new diff between older vs newer. My set may take a hit as I lack many of the 48 leafs.......I think the matson and larry 52 bows are a tad light....you almost never see them in a psa 8. I wouldn't have lowered the namath either.
GEEEEEEs did ya have to lower Jim Otto down
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
Thank you. Great work. I agree 100%. Also nice recommendations by Dan.
I think all members of registry need to follow up Jason's email with an email supporting and concurring with the necessity to adjust grade weights for an accurate set rating.
Marc.
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BOBBY ORR
THE BEST THERE WAS!
THE BEST THERE EVER WILL BE!
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Great job - I agree w/ the need to adjust the weights to actual sales data.
Here is an idea - maybe SMR should be based upon VCP? Just a thought.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Jason,
Great job - I agree w/ the need to adjust the weights to actual sales data.
Here is an idea - maybe SMR should be based upon VCP? Just a thought.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
That's a whole-nother battle..lol...If we can't get the weights updated via realized prices, then that's our only option. To try and get the SMR changed/fixed. That's been an issue as long as PSA has been around I think.
I actually like the SMR being off base sometimes, because there are sellers that still actually use it, and when thosae same guys still list HOF RCs on ebay at SMR???? Well, I need those types of deals to survive with the big dogs around here..lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason or Mark,
What is the weighting table?
0-44.99=1
45-?=1.5.............
thanks >>
Vince, its not really a set in stone number. My 1st goal is/was to ensure that no card that is more valuable has a grade weight LOWER than a less valuable card. So a $200 card won't be a 2.5 weight and a $300 card a 2.0 weight. The weights are somewhat broken down into brackets, but again not with a set in stone to the penny amount. But here are the general brackets based on current value of lowest and highest in the weight:
1.0= $1.05 to $40.70
1.5= $43.53 to $92.29
2.0= $102.31 to $153.24
2.5= $167.51 to $248.75
3.0= $264.08 to $348.77
3.5= $361.75 to $432.98
4.0= $467.00 to $510.00
4.5= $541.12 to $596.00
5.0= $623.25 to $750.00
5.5= $814.56 to $913.05
6.0= $1005.00 to $1497.30
6.5= $1540.87 to $1852.50
7.0= $1945.40 to $2449.24
7.5= $2542.55 to $3200.00
8.0= $3806.07 to $5066.60
8.5= $5399.40 to $7304.35
9.0= $12,925.00 to $38561.10
10.0= $58,417.50
With some of the higher weight, lower pop cards there weren't any PSA 8's in VCP. I used some of my historic tracking sheets that i used to do manually going back to 2003, but again some of these I've simply never seen sell, or sold so long ago, the old price is no longer valid. With the 48s, 35s and 52s I tended to go with the highest common denominator which was typically PSA 6 or PSA 7. That way I could compare the prices of each card within the set directly and come up with a fair estimate of PSA 8 value.
I know it's not perfect, honestly there probably isn't a perfect system. Even using realized price averages, you have the occasional really high (like the 13K Grange 8) or an occasional really low selling card. In those cases, I tried to err on the side of what the card most commonly sold for. Like the Grange, which had never sold higher than 8K before, which is why I left it as 8.5 rather than putting it in the 9.0 categoty based on one sale.
I'll be sending the spreadsheet to Cosetta today and I'll hope for the best.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.