<< <i>Jason, Did you hear anything back about the new weights? >>
No, not yet...The Registry gals are at some coin show in Florida until early next week.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Someone please explain to me the specifics with grade weights. Is it just the difficulty of obtaining the card? Have something to do with how high the grade is? ??? >>
The weights are based on the value of the card in PSA 8. The difficulty in finding it in PSA 8 typically affects the value of the card.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Do you guys know if Jerry Kramer is still eligable for HOF consideration and if so what are his chances of ever getting in?
Doc >>
Only as a senior selection. He was the senior selection in 1997 and did not get elected. He still gets consideration every year and could very well be picked again one of these years. But he's far from a lock, I'd give him about 10-15% chance.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Do you have a list of the Senior selections from say the past 10 years or so? I'm interested to see how many got elected.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
2008 - Marshall Goldberg, Emmitt Thomas 2007 - GENE HICKERSON, CHARLIE SANDERS 2006 - JOHN MADDEN, RAYFIELD WRIGHT 2005 - BENNY FRIEDMAN, FRITZ POLLARD 2004 - BOB BROWN, Bob Hayes 2003 - HANK STRAM 2002 - GEORGE ALLEN 2001 - NICK BUONICONTI 2000 - DAVE WILCOX 1999 - BILLY SHAW 1998 - TOMMY McDONALD 1997 - Jerry Kramer 1996 - LOU CREEKMUR 1995 - HENRY JORDAN 1994 - LEROY KELLY 1993 - Dick Stanfel 1992 - Willie Galimore 1991 - STAN JONES 1990 - BOB ST. CLAIR 1989 - Henry Jordan 1988 - Lou Rymkus 1987 - JOHN HENRY JOHNSON 1986 - DOAK WALKER 1985 - FRANK GATSKI 1984 - ARNIE WEINMEISTER 1983 - Mac Speedie 1982 - GEORGE MUSSO 1981 - RED BADGRO 1980 - Lou Creekmur 1979 - Marshall Goldberg 1978 - TUFFY LEEMANS 1977 - BILL WILLIS 1976 - RAY FLAHERTY 1975 - Ne senior candidate selected 1974 - TONY CANADEO 1973 - Ole Haugsrud 1972 - ACE PARKER
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Yep, which bodes well for him in that the only other 2 players to ever be selected TWICE as a senior, both got in the 2nd time around (Henry Jordan and Lou Creekmur),,,
Will be interesting to see what happens with the Seniors this year. Picking 2 wildcard candidates like they did leaves the entire thought process up in the air. It really could go any direction..Both, one or neither could get in..I'd say its 33%, 33%, 33%...I won't be surprised by any outcome with them this year...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks. Wow, so from 1994-2007, 16 of the 18 senior candidates were selected. Jerry Kramer and Bob Hayes must be so pissed! Based on this info., I'd be absolutely stunned if at least one of Thomas or Goldberg didn't get in.
As a sidenote, I'm surprised Tommy McDonald was a senior candidate. Seems like he had the stats to be get in earlier than that.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Hi, guys. I started my HOF RC set as last year's National (Cleveland), where I picked up a Jim Brown, Herb Adderley and Larry Csonka. I am currenlty #44 on the set registry, with my set aptly named "J's hootball HOF Rookie Set". My goal is to get the '33 and '35 cards in PSA 5, the '48s in PSA 6, 1950-1959 in PSA 7, 1960-1972 in PSA 8, and 1973-present in PSA 9 (the only exception being the 1989 Score rookies, where I am working on a 10 set). I think this is realistic, although it will obviously take years to build. Let me know what you guys think, I'd appreciate your input!
Definitely a nice start...It took me 5+ year to hit 100% for the first time...The fun part is, every year new cards are added and you have to get to 100% all over again!!lol
Best of luck..Packers win in a route, time for the JAGS!!! Would be the biggest playoff upset since they beat the 14 point favorite Broncos in the 96 Playoffs...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Wow, I really made some progress in last night's eBay auctions. I won a PSA 6 Trippi (although I paid through the nose for it), a PSA 5 Dutch Clark, and PSA 8s for Upshaw, Barney and Mack. I should move up quite a few places when I get these entered into my set. Anyone here going to Tri Star Cow Palace in SF next month?
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE 1 03311770 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 24 CLARKE HINKLE N/A 6 Cracked from a PSA 2 holder 2 03311771 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 4 Bought raw off ebay 2 03311772 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 7 Bought raw private deal 3 03311773 1951 BERK ROSS 1-11 BOB COUSY N/A 5 4 03311774 1963 FLEER 47 LEN DAWSON N/A 7 This was bought as PSA 7, cracked to try for 8, came back a 6, recracked and back to a 7 5 03311775 2001 TOPPS CHROME 250 REGGIE WAYNE ROOKIE REFRACTOR 8 Dont' know what I missed on this one.. Thought had 50/50 shot of getting a 10
Date Received: 01/03/2008 Date of Grades Posted: 01/14/2008 Date Shipped: 01/14/2008
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE 1 03311770 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 24 CLARKE HINKLE N/A 6 Cracked from a PSA 2 holder 2 03311771 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 4 Bought raw off ebay 2 03311772 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 7 Bought raw private deal 3 03311773 1951 BERK ROSS 1-11 BOB COUSY N/A 5 4 03311774 1963 FLEER 47 LEN DAWSON N/A 7 This was bought as PSA 7, cracked to try for 8, came back a 6, recracked and back to a 7 5 03311775 2001 TOPPS CHROME 250 REGGIE WAYNE ROOKIE REFRACTOR 8 Dont' know what I missed on this one.. Thought had 50/50 shot of getting a 10
Date Received: 01/03/2008 Date of Grades Posted: 01/14/2008 Date Shipped: 01/14/2008 >>
Awesome! That Hinkle Did swing you a PSA 6!!! Gotta love it...
I'd be interested in the Goldberg 7 if you're not keeping it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm a little dissappointed with the 6. I expected a 7 with an outside shot at 8. I guess I can't complain since I paid $200 for it in the 2 holder. I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now... My goal is to get the 48's in a 5. If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
<< <i>Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm a little dissappointed with the 6. I expected a 7 with an outside shot at 8. I guess I can't complain since I paid $200 for it in the 2 holder. I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now... My goal is to get the 48's in a 5. If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
Dave >>
Yeah, that's pretty much the formula I'll be using for buying the card...The exception being if he doesn't get in 0x...lol...It's a 50/50 shot this time around...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm a little dissappointed with the 6. I expected a 7 with an outside shot at 8. I guess I can't complain since I paid $200 for it in the 2 holder. I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now... My goal is to get the 48's in a 5. If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
Dave >>
So I am surprized that noone seems to be at all a little worried that PSA could on one hand give a card a PSA2 then turn around and give it a PSA6. I had a bump recently from a PSA5 to a PSA10 (this was a modern card). What does this really say about the grading standards. Are we all just rolling the dice on the grades? Lets be honest there is no way someone who is a so called "expert" in vintage cards could grade a card that is a 6 as a 2 or vice versa.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Who are the big name first-time HOF eligible players for the next 3 years, not including this year?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Actually, I think I just answered my own question:
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle 2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams 2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Who are the big name first-time HOF eligible players for the next 3 years, not including this year? >>
I'll do you one better...Ok 2 better..Here's the dtaes for all retirees who are not yet eligible..Yes, it is a sickness...lol
FUTURE HOF pos hof eligible Bruce Smith DE 2009 Rod Woodson CB 2009 Shannon Sharpe TE 2009 John Randle DT 2009 Darren Woodson SS 2009 Jessie Armstead LB 2009 Larry Centers RB 2009 Wesley Walls TE 2009 Jerry Rice WR 2010 Emmitt Smith RB 2010 Tim Brown WR 2010 Aeneas Williams CB 2010 Gary Anderson K 2010 Eddie George RB 2010 Rich Gannon QB 2010 Deion Sanders CB 2011 William Roaf OT 2011 Marshall Faulk RB 2011 Curtis Martin RB 2011 Jerome Bettis RB 2011 Jimmy Smith WR 2011 Doug Flutie QB 2011 Will Shields OG 2012 Tiki Barber RB 2012 Mike Alstott RB 2012 Corey Dillon RB 2012 Drew Bledsoe QB 2012 Keyshawn Johnson WR 2012 Warren Sapp DT 2013 Priest Holmes RB 2013 Bryant Young DT 2013 Vinny Testaverde QB 2013
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Actually, I think I just answered my own question:
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle 2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams 2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all. >>
You missed Roaf anf Faulk for 2011, who will bump Jimmy Smith and either Bettis or Martin (or both).
2009, Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson are 100% first ballot. I think Sharpe and Randle will get in, but not so sure about first ballot. Tony Gonzalez is taking all of Sharpe's receiving records away already. Only other possible might be Darren Woodson, but I'd say he's a LONG LONG LONG shot. None of the others in 2009 have a prayer, but they will at least be nominated.
2010-Rice and Emmitt obviously. I'm not sold that Tim Brown will be a first ballot guy. I think he's a lock to get in, but WR's typically have a tough time, and he'll be going up against Rice. Brown was never once a 1st Team All-Pro, I think that will hold him back a year or 2. Williams and Gary Anderson will probably get in at some point. Eddie George and Gannon never will
2011-WOW, what a year..Could be the most 1st ballot electees in history. Deion, Faulk and Roaf are 1st ballot all the way. Martin and Bettis, I would think at least one of them could make 1st ballot, but both? Not so sure about that. Jimmy Smith is 50/50, he's one of my favorites and was as dominant as they come, but he doesn;t have the monster stats and was also never a 1st team all-pro. Fluite will be interesting..Do they take is CFL and USFL play into account? If they do, he might have a shot.
2012-This is where we start cooling off from the run of great 1st ballot guys. Top candidate in 2012 is Will Shields and I don;t think an OG will go in first ballot who's name isn't John Hannah..lol..I don't think any of the others from 2012 will ever get in. So this will be a catch up year for the guys who've been getting bumped down.
2013- Same as above. Warren Sapp is the strongest and likely only 2013 guy to ever make the HOF. We will see some more catching up, maybe guys like Andre Reed or John Randle or Aeneas Williams who will have been getting close, but against very heavy competition.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, I have another list for you to work on...LOL... Most know that I bailed on the Sr. set as well as the modern hopeful set. I did k,however, keep some of the cards that I will need down the road. I would like to see a list of players not yet eligible that you feel have a 90% chance or better of getting in the hall.....your almost "locks"
What do you think about Larry's Centers chances of being inducted? He was a phenomenal receiver, but will likely fall into the fullback abyss and not even considered. Also, what about Alstott...any chance he'll get a whiff?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Just for the sake of discussion. Would a small glue spot (by PSA's grading standards) make the card a 2 or a 6 ST
I would be interested in the Goldberg 7 if he doesnt make the Hall >>
Not sure about the 6st.
If Goldberg makes it, I will probably hold onto the 7 until a nice 5 or 6 comes along. (Unless I get a nice offer). If he doesnt, I'll probably just stick it on ebay and let it ride, hoping to get back what I got into it.
<< <i>Jason, I have another list for you to work on...LOL... Most know that I bailed on the Sr. set as well as the modern hopeful set. I did k,however, keep some of the cards that I will need down the road. I would like to see a list of players not yet eligible that you feel have a 90% chance or better of getting in the hall.....your almost "locks"
Dave >>
Dave, Here are my current 90+%ers:
Darrell Green Randall McDaniel Cris Carter Derrick Thomas Junior Seau Brett Favre Larry Allen Derrick Brooks Ray Lewis Jon Ogden Marvin Harrison Peyton Manning Champ Bailey Tom Brady Brian Urlacher Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Shannon Sharpe Jerry Rice Emmitt Smith Tim Brown Deion Sanders Willie Roaf Marshall Faulk Jerome Bettis Curtis Martin
EDITED TO ADD: OOPS Forgot Tony Gonzalez..1st Ballot HOFer...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What do you think about Larry's Centers chances of being inducted? He was a phenomenal receiver, but will likely fall into the fullback abyss and not even considered. Also, what about Alstott...any chance he'll get a whiff?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Centers, zero...Lots of catches, but no where close to being a HOF caliber player. Alstott does have 6 Pro Bowls to his name, but he would be the longest of longshots because he was never a great blocker or receiver. He got most of his accolades from being a brusing runner from the FB position, and in that case, he would need Csonka type stats that he just doesn't have. I would be surprised if he ever even made the semi-finals, but he will garner more votes than Centers. Both will at least be nominated.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, I have another list for you to work on...LOL... Most know that I bailed on the Sr. set as well as the modern hopeful set. I did k,however, keep some of the cards that I will need down the road. I would like to see a list of players not yet eligible that you feel have a 90% chance or better of getting in the hall.....your almost "locks"
Dave >>
Dave, Here are my current 90+%ers:
Darrell Green Randall McDaniel Cris Carter Derrick Thomas Junior Seau Brett Favre Larry Allen Derrick Brooks Ray Lewis Jon Ogden Marvin Harrison Peyton Manning Champ Bailey Tom Brady Brian Urlacher Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Shannon Sharpe Jerry Rice Emmitt Smith Tim Brown Deion Sanders Willie Roaf Marshall Faulk Jerome Bettis Curtis Martin
Jason >>
Jason,
Where do you rate Zach Thomas? 50%...75%? I'd think he has a 75%+ chance of making the hall.
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>The Finalists will be announced tonight at 5 EST - I can't wait! I wish we all lived nearby so we could have a "Finalist Announcement" party..lol.
Greg M. >>
Yep, I've been waiting on that before I submit the new modern HOF additions. That's why I ran the poll starting last week, ending today. I may change a vote or 2 of mine based on who makes the list. If Dean or Tippett make the finals again, I would vote for each to be added. If Gradishar doesn't make it, I will not request his addtion, as next year he will be a Senior candidate and I would request his addition to the Senior set.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Where do you rate Zach Thomas? 50%...75%? I'd think he has a 75%+ chance of making the hall.
Greg M. >>
I've got him at 80%, the next tier down. Along with guys like John Randle, Aeneas Williams, Will Shields, Strahan. Guys who COULD meet some resistance but SHOULD get in.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Actually, I think I just answered my own question:
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle 2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams 2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all. >>
Personally, this is one of the things I like and respect about the football Hall. It is, IMHO, the toughest Hall to make, to the point where you look at some guys and say "How is this guy not in the Hall of Fame?" I would much rather have it that way than to have it watered down to the point we are asking "THIS GUY is in the Hall of Fame?" Some of my football buddies who are not as familiar with who is in the Hall and who isn't are many times surprised when I tell them guys like Art Monk and Ken Stabler haven't made it.
<< <i> 2011- Not so sure about that. Jimmy Smith is 50/50, he's one of my favorites and was as dominant as they come, but he doesn;t have the monster stats and was also never a 1st team all-pro. >>
Was as dominant as they come? How does one become so dominant and not have the stats to back that up? lol
Jimmy Smith was good. But not dominant like other WR of his time. 1999 was an awsome year for him. Just like Rob Moore in 1997 and David Boston in 2001. Now I am not comparing these guys but the rest of Jimmy's career is similar to those of Rod Smith, Isaac Bruce, Tim Brown and Henry Ellard. It has been discussed here that Rod Smith was never dominant nor was Ellard or any of the above. So how did Jimmy become so dominat all of the sudden?
According to profootballreference Jimmy finished in the top 10 of the major receiving catgories only 10 times. Those categories are receptions, yds, TDs, yds/rec. He really only played 11 seasons (not counting 1992), that gave him 44 chances to get in the top 10 or 22.7% of the time he was in the top 10.
Ellard 15 years 13 times in the top 10 or 21.67% Rod Smith 11 years 11 times in the to 10 or 25% Bruce 13 years 11 times in the top 10 or 21.16% Tim Brown 15 years 19 times in the top 10 or 31.67% You could argue that Tim only 12 season because he was a returner mostly his first 5 years in the league.
Jimmy was not a TD maker. He never once had more than 8 TDs in one season
If I had to choose one of the guys above it would not be either of the Smith brothers. I would take Tim Brown or Bruce. Jimmy Smith would be behind Ellard and Rod too.
I think your Jag Blue colored glasses got the best of you on that quote Jason. lol
Now if you want to talk about dominance but does not have the career stats to match up let's talk Sterling Sharpe.
7 Years played. All Pro 5 of 7 years. Led the NFL in receptions three times. Was top 5 in receiving yds four times. Led the NFL twice in TDs and was in the top 3 four times.
I agree Sterling Sharpe was dominant, and i've never said otherwise. The knock on him is that he didn't have the longevity to go along with it, otherwise he would have been in the HOF a long time ago. I think he still might get a shot one of these days. Maybe as a senior.
I'll debate you on Smith though. Try these stats, to me they are a little more telling of his true value:
""""""""""""""""""""""""""Let’s just focus on putting Smith’s career numbers in perspective with his contemporaries. I’ll define someone to be a contemporary of Smith if his debut year was within four years of Smith’s 1992 debut. So all receivers who debuted between 1988 and 1996 will be included. That gets us from Tim Brown to Terrell Owens, but doesn’t inlcude geezers like Rice or whippersnappers like Randy Moss. Here are the basic stats, sorted by receiving yards:
Player REC YD TD ======================================== Tim Brown 1094 14934 100 *Marvin Harrison 927 12331 110 Jimmy Smith 862 12287 67 *Isaac Bruce 813 12278 77 Michael Irvin 750 11904 65 *Rod Smith 797 10877 65 *Keenan McCardell 825 10680 62 *Terrell Owens 716 10535 101 Andre Rison 743 10205 84 *Keyshawn Johnson 744 9756 60 Rob Moore 628 9368 49 Herman Moore 670 9174 62 Anthony Miller 595 9148 63 *Eric Moulds 675 9091 48 Tony Martin 593 9065 56 *Ricky Proehl 666 8848 54 Terance Mathis 689 8809 63 *Johnnie Morton 624 8719 43 *Muhsin Muhammad 642 8501 48 *Joey Galloway 550 8501 64 Curtis Conway 594 8230 52 Jeff Graham 542 8172 30 Sterling Sharpe 595 8134 65 *Joe Horn 539 7822 53 *Amani Toomer 529 7797 44 *Terry Glenn 523 7776 38
It’s instructive to compare Jimmy Smith’s career with Tim Brown’s. Brown has 2700 yards on Smith, but Brown has a lot of junk yards and Smith has almost none. Tim Brown had seasons of 265, 554, 693, 567, and 200 yards. That’s about 2200 yards that his teams likely could have gotten out of any old waiver wire receiver.
One of my favorite arbitrary-but-interesting stats is Yards Over 1000. We compute it simply by starting to count the yards only after they reach the 1000 mark. So Jimmy Smith, who had 1023 yards last season, gets credit for 23 yards. In 2003 Smith had 805 yards, so he gets credit for zero. The idea is that you get credit only for doing something above and beyond the ordinary. Among the same group of receivers, here are the leaders in Yards Over 1000:
Player YdOv1000 ============================ *Marvin Harrison 2853 Michael Irvin 2330 *Isaac Bruce 2228 Jimmy Smith 2194 Tim Brown 1992 *Rod Smith 1643 *Terrell Owens 1562 Herman Moore 1448 Sterling Sharpe 1382 *Joe Horn 1316 *Eric Moulds 1024 *Muhsin Muhammad 841 Jake Reed 800 *Keenan McCardell 784 Andre Rison 749 Antonio Freeman 741 *Amani Toomer 731 Yancey Thigpen 705 Anthony Miller 660 *Keyshawn Johnson 655 Tony Martin 613 Rob Moore 610 Carl Pickens 564 Terance Mathis 533 Brett Perriman 509 Robert Brooks 507 Derrick Alexander 499 *Joey Galloway 422 *Terry Glenn 415
I don’t think Rod Smith is going to catch him on this list. Owens might, but it’s not a given. If you look at Yards Over 1200, Smith is fourth behind the same three guys. If you prefer Yards Over 800, he’s second behind only Harrison.
All things — well, all numbers — considered, I think the only guys on this list that can make a case as being better than Jimmy Smith are:
Marvin Harrison - almost certainly will end up being the top guy in this cohort.
Tim Brown - even throwing away his junk yards, Brown is close to Smith yardagewise. And he’s got a big touchdown advantage, if you’re into that kind of thing.
Michael Irvin - very similar profile to Smith: huge piece of a small receiving pie, and relatively low touchdown totals. Irvin played on better teams, which some people would use as evidence in favor of Irvin and others would use as evidence in favor of Smith.
Terrell Owens - Smith currently has better looking overall career numbers. But that could change in a hurry.
Isaac Bruce - three years younger than Smith. Right now I’d give Smith the nod over Bruce based on the systems they played in. But a couple more good seasons by Bruce could change that.
Rod Smith - statistically, Jimmy looks slightly but clearly better. To flip that, Rod would need a couple of seasons better than I expect him to have. But it’s close enough that someone more knowledgeable than I might be able to make a case for him based on blocking and/or other things.
I don’t think any of the other active receivers — Horn, Moulds, Muhammad, McCardell, Keyshawn, Galloway — can reach Smith. So out of this nine-year slice of history, Smith’s numbers will end up somewhere between the 2nd-best and the 7th-best. I have to admit that Smith’s name doesn’t immediately leap to my mind when I think of the great receivers of the era, but he put together a very impressive career. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Of all those WRs you named, IMO only Ellard and Bruce had what I would consider dominant type performances for a long period of time. Tim Brown played forever and caught lots of passes though..Rod Smith was similar to Jimmy in stats, but to say Rod was better on the field simply tells me you never watched these guys on the field. Rod was a good player, but not in the same class as Jimmy Smith. Like I said, Ellard and Bruce are close in their dominance. Ellard is a very overlooked guy, but he was feared on Sunday's. Bruce played in that high power offense, and arguable was the 3rd best player (Behind Faulk and Holt) on the same team. What he did in the pre-best show on turf years was more dominant than what he did during. And i base that off what I watched on the film, not in the stat line.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is the plan: for every year of a receiver’s career, compute the percentage of his team’s receiving yards that he accounted for. Then average together his 6 best seasons according to that metric, or average together all his seasons if he’s played fewer than six.For example, here are Randy Moss’ best six:
The average of those numbers is 33.8, so that’s Moss’ rating.
I am a big fan of rating players by the average of their best N seasons. It’s not scientific, but it generally feels right to me in terms of weighting short brilliant careers with long merely-good ones. If you rate based on totals, you’re going to favor the latter over the former by crediting guys for compiling raw numbers at the end of their career even if those numbers weren’t of much value. If you rate based on averages, you end up penalizing guys for hanging around past their primes. In short, I think an 600-yard season by a 37-year-old wide receiver shouldn’t count for him (because 600-yard seasons grow on trees) nor against him (because 600-yard seasons are at least as good as zero-yard seasons).
In my system, a guy can hang around as long as he wants and it won’t hurt him. But it won’t help him either, unless he does something truly valuable. The only advantage of having a long career is that it gives you more opportunities to generate valuable seasons. Why six seasons instead of four or seven or 10? No particular reason. It just seemed right.
For various reasons I won’t go into now, I only included receivers who debuted in 1978 or later.
OK, here are the top 30:
Player Rating YdRnk ====================================== 1. Michael Irvin 38.3 5 2. Jimmy Smith 36.7 7 3. Jerry Rice 35.5 1 4. Herman Moore 35.2 13 5. Tim Brown 34.8 8 6. James Lofton 34.5 12 7. Marvin Harrison 34.3 2 8. Randy Moss 33.8 4 9. Rod Smith 33.7 9 10. Sterling Sharpe 33.5 15 11. Henry Ellard 33.2 11 12. Terrell Owens 32.6 10 13. Joey Galloway 32.3 37 14. Eric Moulds 32.1 18 15. Isaac Bruce 31.7 6 16. Keyshawn Johnson 31.6 27 17. Joe Horn 31.3 16 18. Torry Holt 31.1 3 19. Hines Ward 31.0 40 20. Cris Carter 31.0 14 21. Anthony Miller 30.9 28 22. Andre Johnson 30.8 62 23. Eric Martin 30.6 51 24. Brian Blades 30.6 55 25. Art Monk 30.6 19 26. Muhsin Muhammad 30.4 34 27. Anquan Boldin 30.4 20 28. Andre Reed 30.3 25 29. Andre Rison 30.3 22 30. Chad Johnson 30.3 26
Only Micheal Irvin account for more of his teams receiving yards than Jimmy Smith...
NOW THAT is dominance!
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
i would say that would be dominance for his team. as this stat only compares offensive players with in one team. there arent that many teams that have multiple good wr. and if they did the ball was spread around. one question could be asked did teams scheme against Smith and if so did they succeed. i know many teams focused on taking rice, irvin or sharpe out of the game but couldnt shut them down altogether. what would happen if you looked at all of these stats as an average per game. that allow on to compare someone like sharpe in the mix so you dont have to look at years played accumulated numbers. like in baseball if you average .270 and play 18 years you should be close to 3000 hits, that just means you were consistent for a long time, not always dominant.
<< <i>Or this one:
Here is the plan: for every year of a receiver’s career, compute the percentage of his team’s receiving yards that he accounted for. Then average together his 6 best seasons according to that metric, or average together all his seasons if he’s played fewer than six.For example, here are Randy Moss’ best six:
The average of those numbers is 33.8, so that’s Moss’ rating.
I am a big fan of rating players by the average of their best N seasons. It’s not scientific, but it generally feels right to me in terms of weighting short brilliant careers with long merely-good ones. If you rate based on totals, you’re going to favor the latter over the former by crediting guys for compiling raw numbers at the end of their career even if those numbers weren’t of much value. If you rate based on averages, you end up penalizing guys for hanging around past their primes. In short, I think an 600-yard season by a 37-year-old wide receiver shouldn’t count for him (because 600-yard seasons grow on trees) nor against him (because 600-yard seasons are at least as good as zero-yard seasons).
In my system, a guy can hang around as long as he wants and it won’t hurt him. But it won’t help him either, unless he does something truly valuable. The only advantage of having a long career is that it gives you more opportunities to generate valuable seasons. Why six seasons instead of four or seven or 10? No particular reason. It just seemed right.
For various reasons I won’t go into now, I only included receivers who debuted in 1978 or later.
OK, here are the top 30:
Player Rating YdRnk ====================================== 1. Michael Irvin 38.3 5 2. Jimmy Smith 36.7 7 3. Jerry Rice 35.5 1 4. Herman Moore 35.2 13 5. Tim Brown 34.8 8 6. James Lofton 34.5 12 7. Marvin Harrison 34.3 2 8. Randy Moss 33.8 4 9. Rod Smith 33.7 9 10. Sterling Sharpe 33.5 15 11. Henry Ellard 33.2 11 12. Terrell Owens 32.6 10 13. Joey Galloway 32.3 37 14. Eric Moulds 32.1 18 15. Isaac Bruce 31.7 6 16. Keyshawn Johnson 31.6 27 17. Joe Horn 31.3 16 18. Torry Holt 31.1 3 19. Hines Ward 31.0 40 20. Cris Carter 31.0 14 21. Anthony Miller 30.9 28 22. Andre Johnson 30.8 62 23. Eric Martin 30.6 51 24. Brian Blades 30.6 55 25. Art Monk 30.6 19 26. Muhsin Muhammad 30.4 34 27. Anquan Boldin 30.4 20 28. Andre Reed 30.3 25 29. Andre Rison 30.3 22 30. Chad Johnson 30.3 26
Only Micheal Irvin account for more of his teams receiving yards than Jimmy Smith...
NOW THAT is dominance! >>
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
here are the stats for brown, smith and sharpe per game.
Rec yds Tds Brown 4.3 58.6 0.39 Smith 4.8 69 0.37 Sharpe 5.3 73 0.58
Your 1a and 1b all time Rice 5.1 75 0.65 Hutson 4.2 68 0.85
So it seems that based on this Smith and Brown are close together, with sharpe a little ahead. Both Sharpe and Smith did little their rookie season, however sharpe played in 16 vs 7 games for Smith. One can also argue that Brown, Smith also played a little past their prime as well. But those years helped get them to some of those bench mark numbers you like while not being a dominant player anymore. Rices numbers would be much higher if he retired earlier as well. For me I look at the TD's more. Why....scores win the game.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Jimmy Smith had 1,000+ yards receiving in his last year. I think he actually retired in his prime.
As far as TDs go, with Tim Brown and Smith..Brown played in a west coast offense, Smith did not. Inside the 5 yard line, the Raiders weren't banging in it with the run. Look at the TDs scored by the Jags and Raiders as a TEAM over their careers. Jags scored more rushing TDs than receiving. Raiders scored more passing TDs. That was a product of the coaching.
The fact that Smith accounted for 36.7% of the Jaguars TEAM reciving yards over his best 6 year stretch says it all. He WAS the Jags passing offense. He saw more double teams than any other receiver mentioned as being "better" than Jimmy. Yet he still got the job done, and he was still getting it done in his last season.
I love Sterling Sharpe though. He was as dominant as an WR in the game during his short career.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cris Carter Darrell Green Fred Dean Richard Dent Marshall Goldberg Randy Gradishar Russ Grimm Ray Guy Bob Kuechenberg Randall McDaniel Art Monk Andre Reed Paul Tagliabue Derrick Thomas Emmitt Thomas Andre Tippett Gary Zimmerman
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cris Carter Darrell Green Fred Dean Richard Dent Marshall Goldberg Randy Gradishar Russ Grimm Ray Guy Bob Kuechenberg Randall McDaniel Art Monk Andre Reed Paul Tagliabue Derrick Thomas Emmitt Thomas Andre Tippett Gary Zimmerman >>
The Class of 2008?: Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Marshall Goldberg, Ray Guy, Art Monk, Pual Tagliabue, Emmitt Thomas
I'm thinking: Both Senior candidates (Goldberg and E. Thomas) get in
C. Carter (he only catches TD's) D. Green (probably can still cover man to man) R. Guy (Coaches talk about the importance of field position.Hhe finally gets recognized as the best punter...ever) B. Kuenchenberg (Need a lineman and they won't vote in 2 Redskins. Sorry R. Grimm)
The last one is toughest. I'm torn between P. Tagliabue (need a suit guy) vs D. Thomas (sentimental choice due to tragic death). I'll go Tagliabue.
Cris Carter Darrell Green Bob Kuechenberg Derrick Thomas and the 5th guy will be a wildcard...Could be absolutely anyone.
I still don't think either Senior will get in, but who knows..The odds are FOR Marshall Goldberg in that this is his 2nd time as a Senior selection and no player has ever been picked twice as a Senior and not gotten in the 2nd time.
Looking back at my final 15 predictions, I was right on 12 of the 15...
Ken Stabler----MISSED Lester Hayes---MISSED Terrell Davis---MISSED
Replaced by:
Fred Dean Andre Tippett Andre Reed
Not surprised by Dean or Tippett. Both got really close last year, but my thinking was that may have been their one good look as finalists. This hurts Dent's and D.Thomas's chances as once again all 4 will be splitting votes. I am surprised at Reed however. Especially with Carter and Monk slotted ahead of him at WR (IMO). Now way they put 3 WRs in the same year. So the 5th spot, honestly could go to ANY of the final 15..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
C. Carter D. Green R. McDaniel R. Gradishar M. Goldberg
BTW, here is some info on Marshall Goldberg I found in the book "When Football was Football: The Chicago Cardinals and the birth of the NFL"
There seems to very little info out there on Marshall's career, so I thought I would post this in case anyone was interested in him.
"Marshall Goldberg always pursued excellence and achieved it both on the football field and in his buisness career. Goldberg announced his retirement after the 1947 season to pursue his blossoming position with a Chicago company that rebuilt and constructed special machines. The Cardinals approached the owner of the company in an effort to secure Goldberg for one more season.
He did rejoin the Cardinals for the 1948 season, but with the stipulation that he play only defense. Goldberg continued to work even during the season and his dual career paid off; he eventually became president and owner of the company.
While he is respected as the patriarch of the "Dream Backfield", Goldberg revolutionized the defensive saftey position as it is known today. He was one of the most versatile players in the history of the NFL, as acknowledged by Coach Jimmy Conzelman in the book - Pro Football's Rag Days "He might well have been the first defensive specialist in pro football. And he was a great one...Marshall Goldberg may be one of the most underrated players ever to play in the pros. At one time in one season he led the league in five different departments. Imagine what a player with those statistics could command in today's market!"
Goldberg was briefly a television star after his playing career was over, teaming with none other than Mike Wallace on Chicago Cardinals sports shows. " It was fun...a nice easy pregame show. We met about an hour before our show started and went over the plays and the traits of the other team," recalls Goldberg
At the time of his retirement following the 1948 season, Goldberg held the all-time team record for yards gained, attempts, touchdowns, and interceptions. He is a member of the Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, the Citizen Savings Hall of Fame, the National Football Foundation Hall of Fame, and is one of only four Cardinals to have had their jersey numbers retired."
Comments
<< <i>Jason, Did you hear anything back about the new weights? >>
No, not yet...The Registry gals are at some coin show in Florida until early next week.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Someone please explain to me the specifics with grade weights. Is it just the difficulty of obtaining the card? Have something to do with how high the grade is? ??? >>
The weights are based on the value of the card in PSA 8. The difficulty in finding it in PSA 8 typically affects the value of the card.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
<< <i>Do you guys know if Jerry Kramer is still eligable for HOF consideration and if so what are his chances of ever getting in?
Doc >>
Only as a senior selection. He was the senior selection in 1997 and did not get elected. He still gets consideration every year and could very well be picked again one of these years. But he's far from a lock, I'd give him about 10-15% chance.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2008 - Marshall Goldberg, Emmitt Thomas
2007 - GENE HICKERSON, CHARLIE SANDERS
2006 - JOHN MADDEN, RAYFIELD WRIGHT
2005 - BENNY FRIEDMAN, FRITZ POLLARD
2004 - BOB BROWN, Bob Hayes
2003 - HANK STRAM
2002 - GEORGE ALLEN
2001 - NICK BUONICONTI
2000 - DAVE WILCOX
1999 - BILLY SHAW
1998 - TOMMY McDONALD
1997 - Jerry Kramer
1996 - LOU CREEKMUR
1995 - HENRY JORDAN
1994 - LEROY KELLY
1993 - Dick Stanfel
1992 - Willie Galimore
1991 - STAN JONES
1990 - BOB ST. CLAIR
1989 - Henry Jordan
1988 - Lou Rymkus
1987 - JOHN HENRY JOHNSON
1986 - DOAK WALKER
1985 - FRANK GATSKI
1984 - ARNIE WEINMEISTER
1983 - Mac Speedie
1982 - GEORGE MUSSO
1981 - RED BADGRO
1980 - Lou Creekmur
1979 - Marshall Goldberg
1978 - TUFFY LEEMANS
1977 - BILL WILLIS
1976 - RAY FLAHERTY
1975 - Ne senior candidate selected
1974 - TONY CANADEO
1973 - Ole Haugsrud
1972 - ACE PARKER
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Joe
Will be interesting to see what happens with the Seniors this year. Picking 2 wildcard candidates like they did leaves the entire thought process up in the air. It really could go any direction..Both, one or neither could get in..I'd say its 33%, 33%, 33%...I won't be surprised by any outcome with them this year...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As a sidenote, I'm surprised Tommy McDonald was a senior candidate. Seems like he had the stats to be get in earlier than that.
Best of luck..Packers win in a route, time for the JAGS!!! Would be the biggest playoff upset since they beat the 14 point favorite Broncos in the 96 Playoffs...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
1930's- 3's
1940's- 4's
1950's- 5's
1960's- 6's
1970's- 7's
1980's- 8's
1990's to present 9's
Now this is what I am going after
1933-1948 5's
1950-1954 6's
1955-1969 7's
1970-1979 8's
1981 and up 9's
I have a lot of upgrading I need to do but alot of them should be rather easy to find, especially the 70's cards
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 03311770 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 24 CLARKE HINKLE N/A 6 Cracked from a PSA 2 holder
2 03311771 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 4 Bought raw off ebay
2 03311772 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 7 Bought raw private deal
3 03311773 1951 BERK ROSS 1-11 BOB COUSY N/A 5
4 03311774 1963 FLEER 47 LEN DAWSON N/A 7 This was bought as PSA 7, cracked to try for 8, came back a 6, recracked and back to a 7
5 03311775 2001 TOPPS CHROME 250 REGGIE WAYNE ROOKIE REFRACTOR 8 Dont' know what I missed on this one.. Thought had 50/50 shot of getting a 10
Date Received: 01/03/2008
Date of Grades Posted: 01/14/2008
Date Shipped: 01/14/2008
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>PSA Order Status for Submission # 4646492
LINE # CERT # CARD CARD CO. CARD # CARD NAME VARIETY GRADE
1 03311770 1935 NATIONAL CHICLE 24 CLARKE HINKLE N/A 6 Cracked from a PSA 2 holder
2 03311771 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 4 Bought raw off ebay
2 03311772 1948 BOWMAN 81 MARSHALL GOLDBERG N/A 7 Bought raw private deal
3 03311773 1951 BERK ROSS 1-11 BOB COUSY N/A 5
4 03311774 1963 FLEER 47 LEN DAWSON N/A 7 This was bought as PSA 7, cracked to try for 8, came back a 6, recracked and back to a 7
5 03311775 2001 TOPPS CHROME 250 REGGIE WAYNE ROOKIE REFRACTOR 8 Dont' know what I missed on this one.. Thought had 50/50 shot of getting a 10
Date Received: 01/03/2008
Date of Grades Posted: 01/14/2008
Date Shipped: 01/14/2008 >>
Awesome! That Hinkle Did swing you a PSA 6!!! Gotta love it...
I'd be interested in the Goldberg 7 if you're not keeping it.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now...
If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm a little dissappointed with the 6. I expected a 7 with an outside shot at 8. I guess I can't complain since I paid $200 for it in the 2 holder. I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now...
If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
Dave >>
Yeah, that's pretty much the formula I'll be using for buying the card...The exception being if he doesn't get in 0x...lol...It's a 50/50 shot this time around...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm a little dissappointed with the 6. I expected a 7 with an outside shot at 8. I guess I can't complain since I paid $200 for it in the 2 holder. I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2.
As for the Goldberg, that's a toughie. I really need him to make the HOF now...
If I sold it right now I could get X. If he makes the HOF I could get 3X. If he doesn't I could get 1/2X. I think I will wait a couple weeks until they annouce and keep my fingers crossed.
Dave >>
So I am surprized that noone seems to be at all a little worried that PSA could on one hand give a card a PSA2 then turn around and give it a PSA6. I had a bump recently from a PSA5 to a PSA10 (this was a modern card). What does this really say about the grading standards. Are we all just rolling the dice on the grades? Lets be honest there is no way someone who is a so called "expert" in vintage cards could grade a card that is a 6 as a 2 or vice versa.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I don't understand what the grader saw to give it a 2. >>
I guess I sholdn't have said this... The grader must have seen the glue. Maybe glue is an automatic 2, like a surface wrinkle is an automatic 5??
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle
2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams
2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all.
<< <i>Who are the big name first-time HOF eligible players for the next 3 years, not including this year? >>
I'll do you one better...Ok 2 better..Here's the dtaes for all retirees who are not yet eligible..Yes, it is a sickness...lol
FUTURE HOF pos hof eligible
Bruce Smith DE 2009
Rod Woodson CB 2009
Shannon Sharpe TE 2009
John Randle DT 2009
Darren Woodson SS 2009
Jessie Armstead LB 2009
Larry Centers RB 2009
Wesley Walls TE 2009
Jerry Rice WR 2010
Emmitt Smith RB 2010
Tim Brown WR 2010
Aeneas Williams CB 2010
Gary Anderson K 2010
Eddie George RB 2010
Rich Gannon QB 2010
Deion Sanders CB 2011
William Roaf OT 2011
Marshall Faulk RB 2011
Curtis Martin RB 2011
Jerome Bettis RB 2011
Jimmy Smith WR 2011
Doug Flutie QB 2011
Will Shields OG 2012
Tiki Barber RB 2012
Mike Alstott RB 2012
Corey Dillon RB 2012
Drew Bledsoe QB 2012
Keyshawn Johnson WR 2012
Warren Sapp DT 2013
Priest Holmes RB 2013
Bryant Young DT 2013
Vinny Testaverde QB 2013
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Actually, I think I just answered my own question:
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle
2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams
2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all. >>
You missed Roaf anf Faulk for 2011, who will bump Jimmy Smith and either Bettis or Martin (or both).
2009, Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson are 100% first ballot. I think Sharpe and Randle will get in, but not so sure about first ballot. Tony Gonzalez is taking all of Sharpe's receiving records away already. Only other possible might be Darren Woodson, but I'd say he's a LONG LONG LONG shot. None of the others in 2009 have a prayer, but they will at least be nominated.
2010-Rice and Emmitt obviously. I'm not sold that Tim Brown will be a first ballot guy. I think he's a lock to get in, but WR's typically have a tough time, and he'll be going up against Rice. Brown was never once a 1st Team All-Pro, I think that will hold him back a year or 2. Williams and Gary Anderson will probably get in at some point. Eddie George and Gannon never will
2011-WOW, what a year..Could be the most 1st ballot electees in history. Deion, Faulk and Roaf are 1st ballot all the way. Martin and Bettis, I would think at least one of them could make 1st ballot, but both? Not so sure about that. Jimmy Smith is 50/50, he's one of my favorites and was as dominant as they come, but he doesn;t have the monster stats and was also never a 1st team all-pro. Fluite will be interesting..Do they take is CFL and USFL play into account? If they do, he might have a shot.
2012-This is where we start cooling off from the run of great 1st ballot guys. Top candidate in 2012 is Will Shields and I don;t think an OG will go in first ballot who's name isn't John Hannah..lol..I don't think any of the others from 2012 will ever get in. So this will be a catch up year for the guys who've been getting bumped down.
2013- Same as above. Warren Sapp is the strongest and likely only 2013 guy to ever make the HOF. We will see some more catching up, maybe guys like Andre Reed or John Randle or Aeneas Williams who will have been getting close, but against very heavy competition.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Congrats on the Hinkle 6 !!! Thats awesome
Just for the sake of discussion. Would a small glue spot (by PSA's grading standards) make the card a 2 or a 6 ST
I would be interested in the Goldberg 7 if he doesnt make the Hall
Gabbs
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
What do you think about Larry's Centers chances of being inducted? He was a phenomenal receiver, but will likely fall into the fullback abyss and not even considered. Also, what about Alstott...any chance he'll get a whiff?
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Just for the sake of discussion. Would a small glue spot (by PSA's grading standards) make the card a 2 or a 6 ST
I would be interested in the Goldberg 7 if he doesnt make the Hall
>>
Not sure about the 6st.
If Goldberg makes it, I will probably hold onto the 7 until a nice 5 or 6 comes along. (Unless I get a nice offer). If he doesnt, I'll probably just stick it on ebay and let it ride, hoping to get back what I got into it.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Jason, I have another list for you to work on...LOL... Most know that I bailed on the Sr. set as well as the modern hopeful set. I did k,however, keep some of the cards that I will need down the road. I would like to see a list of players not yet eligible that you feel have a 90% chance or better of getting in the hall.....your almost "locks"
Dave >>
Dave,
Here are my current 90+%ers:
Darrell Green
Randall McDaniel
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
Junior Seau
Brett Favre
Larry Allen
Derrick Brooks
Ray Lewis
Jon Ogden
Marvin Harrison
Peyton Manning
Champ Bailey
Tom Brady
Brian Urlacher
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Shannon Sharpe
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
Tim Brown
Deion Sanders
Willie Roaf
Marshall Faulk
Jerome Bettis
Curtis Martin
EDITED TO ADD: OOPS Forgot Tony Gonzalez..1st Ballot HOFer...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason,
What do you think about Larry's Centers chances of being inducted? He was a phenomenal receiver, but will likely fall into the fullback abyss and not even considered. Also, what about Alstott...any chance he'll get a whiff?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Centers, zero...Lots of catches, but no where close to being a HOF caliber player. Alstott does have 6 Pro Bowls to his name, but he would be the longest of longshots because he was never a great blocker or receiver. He got most of his accolades from being a brusing runner from the FB position, and in that case, he would need Csonka type stats that he just doesn't have. I would be surprised if he ever even made the semi-finals, but he will garner more votes than Centers. Both will at least be nominated.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jason, I have another list for you to work on...LOL... Most know that I bailed on the Sr. set as well as the modern hopeful set. I did k,however, keep some of the cards that I will need down the road. I would like to see a list of players not yet eligible that you feel have a 90% chance or better of getting in the hall.....your almost "locks"
Dave >>
Dave,
Here are my current 90+%ers:
Darrell Green
Randall McDaniel
Cris Carter
Derrick Thomas
Junior Seau
Brett Favre
Larry Allen
Derrick Brooks
Ray Lewis
Jon Ogden
Marvin Harrison
Peyton Manning
Champ Bailey
Tom Brady
Brian Urlacher
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Shannon Sharpe
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
Tim Brown
Deion Sanders
Willie Roaf
Marshall Faulk
Jerome Bettis
Curtis Martin
Jason >>
Jason,
Where do you rate Zach Thomas? 50%...75%? I'd think he has a 75%+ chance of making the hall.
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>The Finalists will be announced tonight at 5 EST - I can't wait! I wish we all lived nearby so we could have a "Finalist Announcement" party..lol.
Greg M. >>
Yep, I've been waiting on that before I submit the new modern HOF additions. That's why I ran the poll starting last week, ending today. I may change a vote or 2 of mine based on who makes the list. If Dean or Tippett make the finals again, I would vote for each to be added. If Gradishar doesn't make it, I will not request his addtion, as next year he will be a Senior candidate and I would request his addition to the Senior set.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Jason,
Where do you rate Zach Thomas? 50%...75%? I'd think he has a 75%+ chance of making the hall.
Greg M. >>
I've got him at 80%, the next tier down. Along with guys like John Randle, Aeneas Williams, Will Shields, Strahan. Guys who COULD meet some resistance but SHOULD get in.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Actually, I think I just answered my own question:
2009: B. Smith, Woodson, Sharpe, Randle
2010: Rice, E. Smith, Brown, A. Williams
2011: D. Sanders, Bettis, J. Smith, Martin
Am I missing anyone???
Of these players, I'd say that the only potential non first-ballot selections would be Randle, Williams and J. Smith. I think Williams deserves it, but he could be squeezed out because of the class he's in. My point though is that with a max of 5 modern selections, and 9 of the 15 spots basically already spoken for, it is going to be a LONG, LONG wait for some of the players who don't get in this year - if they ever get in at all. >>
Personally, this is one of the things I like and respect about the football Hall. It is, IMHO, the toughest Hall to make, to the point where you look at some guys and say "How is this guy not in the Hall of Fame?" I would much rather have it that way than to have it watered down to the point we are asking "THIS GUY is in the Hall of Fame?" Some of my football buddies who are not as familiar with who is in the Hall and who isn't are many times surprised when I tell them guys like Art Monk and Ken Stabler haven't made it.
<< <i>
2011- Not so sure about that. Jimmy Smith is 50/50, he's one of my favorites and was as dominant as they come, but he doesn;t have the monster stats and was also never a 1st team all-pro. >>
Was as dominant as they come? How does one become so dominant and not have the stats to back that up? lol
Jimmy Smith was good. But not dominant like other WR of his time. 1999 was an awsome year for him. Just like Rob Moore in 1997 and David Boston in 2001. Now I am not comparing these guys but the rest of Jimmy's career is similar to those of Rod Smith, Isaac Bruce, Tim Brown and Henry Ellard. It has been discussed here that Rod Smith was never dominant nor was Ellard or any of the above. So how did Jimmy become so dominat all of the sudden?
According to profootballreference Jimmy finished in the top 10 of the major receiving catgories only 10 times.
Those categories are receptions, yds, TDs, yds/rec. He really only played 11 seasons (not counting 1992), that gave him 44 chances to get in the top 10 or 22.7% of the time he was in the top 10.
Ellard 15 years 13 times in the top 10 or 21.67%
Rod Smith 11 years 11 times in the to 10 or 25%
Bruce 13 years 11 times in the top 10 or 21.16%
Tim Brown 15 years 19 times in the top 10 or 31.67%
You could argue that Tim only 12 season because he was a returner mostly his first 5 years in the league.
Jimmy was not a TD maker. He never once had more than 8 TDs in one season
If I had to choose one of the guys above it would not be either of the Smith brothers. I would take Tim Brown or Bruce. Jimmy Smith would be behind Ellard and Rod too.
I think your Jag Blue colored glasses got the best of you on that quote Jason. lol
Now if you want to talk about dominance but does not have the career stats to match up let's talk Sterling Sharpe.
7 Years played. All Pro 5 of 7 years. Led the NFL in receptions three times. Was top 5 in receiving yds four times. Led the NFL twice in TDs and was in the top 3 four times.
Now that is dominance!I'll debate you on Smith though. Try these stats, to me they are a little more telling of his true value:
""""""""""""""""""""""""""Let’s just focus on putting Smith’s career numbers in perspective with his contemporaries. I’ll define someone to be a contemporary of Smith if his debut year was within four years of Smith’s 1992 debut. So all receivers who debuted between 1988 and 1996 will be included. That gets us from Tim Brown to Terrell Owens, but doesn’t inlcude geezers like Rice or whippersnappers like Randy Moss. Here are the basic stats, sorted by receiving yards:
Player REC YD TD
========================================
Tim Brown 1094 14934 100
*Marvin Harrison 927 12331 110
Jimmy Smith 862 12287 67
*Isaac Bruce 813 12278 77
Michael Irvin 750 11904 65
*Rod Smith 797 10877 65
*Keenan McCardell 825 10680 62
*Terrell Owens 716 10535 101
Andre Rison 743 10205 84
*Keyshawn Johnson 744 9756 60
Rob Moore 628 9368 49
Herman Moore 670 9174 62
Anthony Miller 595 9148 63
*Eric Moulds 675 9091 48
Tony Martin 593 9065 56
*Ricky Proehl 666 8848 54
Terance Mathis 689 8809 63
*Johnnie Morton 624 8719 43
*Muhsin Muhammad 642 8501 48
*Joey Galloway 550 8501 64
Curtis Conway 594 8230 52
Jeff Graham 542 8172 30
Sterling Sharpe 595 8134 65
*Joe Horn 539 7822 53
*Amani Toomer 529 7797 44
*Terry Glenn 523 7776 38
It’s instructive to compare Jimmy Smith’s career with Tim Brown’s. Brown has 2700 yards on Smith, but Brown has a lot of junk yards and Smith has almost none. Tim Brown had seasons of 265, 554, 693, 567, and 200 yards. That’s about 2200 yards that his teams likely could have gotten out of any old waiver wire receiver.
One of my favorite arbitrary-but-interesting stats is Yards Over 1000. We compute it simply by starting to count the yards only after they reach the 1000 mark. So Jimmy Smith, who had 1023 yards last season, gets credit for 23 yards. In 2003 Smith had 805 yards, so he gets credit for zero. The idea is that you get credit only for doing something above and beyond the ordinary. Among the same group of receivers, here are the leaders in Yards Over 1000:
Player YdOv1000
============================
*Marvin Harrison 2853
Michael Irvin 2330
*Isaac Bruce 2228
Jimmy Smith 2194
Tim Brown 1992
*Rod Smith 1643
*Terrell Owens 1562
Herman Moore 1448
Sterling Sharpe 1382
*Joe Horn 1316
*Eric Moulds 1024
*Muhsin Muhammad 841
Jake Reed 800
*Keenan McCardell 784
Andre Rison 749
Antonio Freeman 741
*Amani Toomer 731
Yancey Thigpen 705
Anthony Miller 660
*Keyshawn Johnson 655
Tony Martin 613
Rob Moore 610
Carl Pickens 564
Terance Mathis 533
Brett Perriman 509
Robert Brooks 507
Derrick Alexander 499
*Joey Galloway 422
*Terry Glenn 415
I don’t think Rod Smith is going to catch him on this list. Owens might, but it’s not a given. If you look at Yards Over 1200, Smith is fourth behind the same three guys. If you prefer Yards Over 800, he’s second behind only Harrison.
All things — well, all numbers — considered, I think the only guys on this list that can make a case as being better than Jimmy Smith are:
Marvin Harrison - almost certainly will end up being the top guy in this cohort.
Tim Brown - even throwing away his junk yards, Brown is close to Smith yardagewise. And he’s got a big touchdown advantage, if you’re into that kind of thing.
Michael Irvin - very similar profile to Smith: huge piece of a small receiving pie, and relatively low touchdown totals. Irvin played on better teams, which some people would use as evidence in favor of Irvin and others would use as evidence in favor of Smith.
Terrell Owens - Smith currently has better looking overall career numbers. But that could change in a hurry.
Isaac Bruce - three years younger than Smith. Right now I’d give Smith the nod over Bruce based on the systems they played in. But a couple more good seasons by Bruce could change that.
Rod Smith - statistically, Jimmy looks slightly but clearly better. To flip that, Rod would need a couple of seasons better than I expect him to have. But it’s close enough that someone more knowledgeable than I might be able to make a case for him based on blocking and/or other things.
I don’t think any of the other active receivers — Horn, Moulds, Muhammad, McCardell, Keyshawn, Galloway — can reach Smith. So out of this nine-year slice of history, Smith’s numbers will end up somewhere between the 2nd-best and the 7th-best. I have to admit that Smith’s name doesn’t immediately leap to my mind when I think of the great receivers of the era, but he put together a very impressive career. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Of all those WRs you named, IMO only Ellard and Bruce had what I would consider dominant type performances for a long period of time. Tim Brown played forever and caught lots of passes though..Rod Smith was similar to Jimmy in stats, but to say Rod was better on the field simply tells me you never watched these guys on the field. Rod was a good player, but not in the same class as Jimmy Smith. Like I said, Ellard and Bruce are close in their dominance. Ellard is a very overlooked guy, but he was feared on Sunday's. Bruce played in that high power offense, and arguable was the 3rd best player (Behind Faulk and Holt) on the same team. What he did in the pre-best show on turf years was more dominant than what he did during. And i base that off what I watched on the film, not in the stat line.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here is the plan: for every year of a receiver’s career, compute the percentage of his team’s receiving yards that he accounted for. Then average together his 6 best seasons according to that metric, or average together all his seasons if he’s played fewer than six.For example, here are Randy Moss’ best six:
Year PCT
============
2003 39.1
2000 35.8
2002 34.1
1999 32.7
2001 32.0
1998 29.2
The average of those numbers is 33.8, so that’s Moss’ rating.
I am a big fan of rating players by the average of their best N seasons. It’s not scientific, but it generally feels right to me in terms of weighting short brilliant careers with long merely-good ones. If you rate based on totals, you’re going to favor the latter over the former by crediting guys for compiling raw numbers at the end of their career even if those numbers weren’t of much value. If you rate based on averages, you end up penalizing guys for hanging around past their primes. In short, I think an 600-yard season by a 37-year-old wide receiver shouldn’t count for him (because 600-yard seasons grow on trees) nor against him (because 600-yard seasons are at least as good as zero-yard seasons).
In my system, a guy can hang around as long as he wants and it won’t hurt him. But it won’t help him either, unless he does something truly valuable. The only advantage of having a long career is that it gives you more opportunities to generate valuable seasons. Why six seasons instead of four or seven or 10? No particular reason. It just seemed right.
For various reasons I won’t go into now, I only included receivers who debuted in 1978 or later.
OK, here are the top 30:
Player Rating YdRnk
======================================
1. Michael Irvin 38.3 5
2. Jimmy Smith 36.7 7
3. Jerry Rice 35.5 1
4. Herman Moore 35.2 13
5. Tim Brown 34.8 8
6. James Lofton 34.5 12
7. Marvin Harrison 34.3 2
8. Randy Moss 33.8 4
9. Rod Smith 33.7 9
10. Sterling Sharpe 33.5 15
11. Henry Ellard 33.2 11
12. Terrell Owens 32.6 10
13. Joey Galloway 32.3 37
14. Eric Moulds 32.1 18
15. Isaac Bruce 31.7 6
16. Keyshawn Johnson 31.6 27
17. Joe Horn 31.3 16
18. Torry Holt 31.1 3
19. Hines Ward 31.0 40
20. Cris Carter 31.0 14
21. Anthony Miller 30.9 28
22. Andre Johnson 30.8 62
23. Eric Martin 30.6 51
24. Brian Blades 30.6 55
25. Art Monk 30.6 19
26. Muhsin Muhammad 30.4 34
27. Anquan Boldin 30.4 20
28. Andre Reed 30.3 25
29. Andre Rison 30.3 22
30. Chad Johnson 30.3 26
Only Micheal Irvin account for more of his teams receiving yards than Jimmy Smith...
NOW THAT is dominance!
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Or this one:
Here is the plan: for every year of a receiver’s career, compute the percentage of his team’s receiving yards that he accounted for. Then average together his 6 best seasons according to that metric, or average together all his seasons if he’s played fewer than six.For example, here are Randy Moss’ best six:
Year PCT
============
2003 39.1
2000 35.8
2002 34.1
1999 32.7
2001 32.0
1998 29.2
The average of those numbers is 33.8, so that’s Moss’ rating.
I am a big fan of rating players by the average of their best N seasons. It’s not scientific, but it generally feels right to me in terms of weighting short brilliant careers with long merely-good ones. If you rate based on totals, you’re going to favor the latter over the former by crediting guys for compiling raw numbers at the end of their career even if those numbers weren’t of much value. If you rate based on averages, you end up penalizing guys for hanging around past their primes. In short, I think an 600-yard season by a 37-year-old wide receiver shouldn’t count for him (because 600-yard seasons grow on trees) nor against him (because 600-yard seasons are at least as good as zero-yard seasons).
In my system, a guy can hang around as long as he wants and it won’t hurt him. But it won’t help him either, unless he does something truly valuable. The only advantage of having a long career is that it gives you more opportunities to generate valuable seasons. Why six seasons instead of four or seven or 10? No particular reason. It just seemed right.
For various reasons I won’t go into now, I only included receivers who debuted in 1978 or later.
OK, here are the top 30:
Player Rating YdRnk
======================================
1. Michael Irvin 38.3 5
2. Jimmy Smith 36.7 7
3. Jerry Rice 35.5 1
4. Herman Moore 35.2 13
5. Tim Brown 34.8 8
6. James Lofton 34.5 12
7. Marvin Harrison 34.3 2
8. Randy Moss 33.8 4
9. Rod Smith 33.7 9
10. Sterling Sharpe 33.5 15
11. Henry Ellard 33.2 11
12. Terrell Owens 32.6 10
13. Joey Galloway 32.3 37
14. Eric Moulds 32.1 18
15. Isaac Bruce 31.7 6
16. Keyshawn Johnson 31.6 27
17. Joe Horn 31.3 16
18. Torry Holt 31.1 3
19. Hines Ward 31.0 40
20. Cris Carter 31.0 14
21. Anthony Miller 30.9 28
22. Andre Johnson 30.8 62
23. Eric Martin 30.6 51
24. Brian Blades 30.6 55
25. Art Monk 30.6 19
26. Muhsin Muhammad 30.4 34
27. Anquan Boldin 30.4 20
28. Andre Reed 30.3 25
29. Andre Rison 30.3 22
30. Chad Johnson 30.3 26
Only Micheal Irvin account for more of his teams receiving yards than Jimmy Smith...
NOW THAT is dominance! >>
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Rec yds Tds
Brown 4.3 58.6 0.39
Smith 4.8 69 0.37
Sharpe 5.3 73 0.58
Your 1a and 1b all time
Rice 5.1 75 0.65
Hutson 4.2 68 0.85
So it seems that based on this Smith and Brown are close together, with sharpe a little ahead. Both Sharpe and Smith did little their rookie season, however sharpe played in 16 vs 7 games for Smith. One can also argue that Brown, Smith also played a little past their prime as well. But those years helped get them to some of those bench mark numbers you like while not being a dominant player anymore. Rices numbers would be much higher if he retired earlier as well. For me I look at the TD's more. Why....scores win the game.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
As far as TDs go, with Tim Brown and Smith..Brown played in a west coast offense, Smith did not. Inside the 5 yard line, the Raiders weren't banging in it with the run. Look at the TDs scored by the Jags and Raiders as a TEAM over their careers. Jags scored more rushing TDs than receiving. Raiders scored more passing TDs. That was a product of the coaching.
The fact that Smith accounted for 36.7% of the Jaguars TEAM reciving yards over his best 6 year stretch says it all. He WAS the Jags passing offense. He saw more double teams than any other receiver mentioned as being "better" than Jimmy. Yet he still got the job done, and he was still getting it done in his last season.
I love Sterling Sharpe though. He was as dominant as an WR in the game during his short career.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Fred Dean
Richard Dent
Marshall Goldberg
Randy Gradishar
Russ Grimm
Ray Guy
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
Art Monk
Andre Reed
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Emmitt Thomas
Andre Tippett
Gary Zimmerman
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Your 2008 Fianlists:
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Fred Dean
Richard Dent
Marshall Goldberg
Randy Gradishar
Russ Grimm
Ray Guy
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
Art Monk
Andre Reed
Paul Tagliabue
Derrick Thomas
Emmitt Thomas
Andre Tippett
Gary Zimmerman >>
The Class of 2008?:
Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Marshall Goldberg, Ray Guy, Art Monk, Pual Tagliabue, Emmitt Thomas
Thoughts?
Both Senior candidates (Goldberg and E. Thomas) get in
C. Carter (he only catches TD's)
D. Green (probably can still cover man to man)
R. Guy (Coaches talk about the importance of field position.Hhe finally gets recognized as the best punter...ever)
B. Kuenchenberg (Need a lineman and they won't vote in 2 Redskins. Sorry R. Grimm)
The last one is toughest. I'm torn between P. Tagliabue (need a suit guy) vs D. Thomas (sentimental choice due to tragic death).
I'll go Tagliabue.
Cris Carter
Darrell Green
Bob Kuechenberg
Derrick Thomas
and the 5th guy will be a wildcard...Could be absolutely anyone.
I still don't think either Senior will get in, but who knows..The odds are FOR Marshall Goldberg in that this is his 2nd time as a Senior selection and no player has ever been picked twice as a Senior and not gotten in the 2nd time.
Looking back at my final 15 predictions, I was right on 12 of the 15...
Ken Stabler----MISSED
Lester Hayes---MISSED
Terrell Davis---MISSED
Replaced by:
Fred Dean
Andre Tippett
Andre Reed
Not surprised by Dean or Tippett. Both got really close last year, but my thinking was that may have been their one good look as finalists. This hurts Dent's and D.Thomas's chances as once again all 4 will be splitting votes. I am surprised at Reed however. Especially with Carter and Monk slotted ahead of him at WR (IMO). Now way they put 3 WRs in the same year. So the 5th spot, honestly could go to ANY of the final 15..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think this might be the first time in 5 years we have disagreed Frank
This year is wide open imo.
C. Carter
D. Green
R. McDaniel
R. Gradishar
M. Goldberg
BTW, here is some info on Marshall Goldberg I found in the book "When Football was Football: The Chicago Cardinals and the birth of the NFL"
There seems to very little info out there on Marshall's career, so I thought I would post this in case anyone was interested in him.
"Marshall Goldberg always pursued excellence and achieved it both on the football field and in his buisness career. Goldberg announced his retirement after the 1947 season to pursue his blossoming position with a Chicago company that rebuilt and constructed special machines. The Cardinals approached the owner of the company in an effort to secure Goldberg for one more season.
He did rejoin the Cardinals for the 1948 season, but with the stipulation that he play only defense. Goldberg continued to work even during the season and his dual career paid off; he eventually became president and owner of the company.
While he is respected as the patriarch of the "Dream Backfield", Goldberg revolutionized the defensive saftey position as it is known today. He was one of the most versatile players in the history of the NFL, as acknowledged by Coach Jimmy Conzelman in the book - Pro Football's Rag Days "He might well have been the first defensive specialist in pro football. And he was a great one...Marshall Goldberg may be one of the most underrated players ever to play in the pros. At one time in one season he led the league in five different departments. Imagine what a player with those statistics could command in today's market!"
Goldberg was briefly a television star after his playing career was over, teaming with none other than Mike Wallace on Chicago Cardinals sports shows. " It was fun...a nice easy pregame show. We met about an hour before our show started and went over the plays and the traits of the other team," recalls Goldberg
At the time of his retirement following the 1948 season, Goldberg held the all-time team record for yards gained, attempts, touchdowns, and interceptions. He is a member of the Jewish Sports Hall of Fame, the Citizen Savings Hall of Fame, the National Football Foundation Hall of Fame, and is one of only four Cardinals to have had their jersey numbers retired."
Gabbs