<< <i>Shag thinks Barry Sanders and Harold Jackson were the greatest ever at their position, while I whole-heartedly disagree...lol >>
Thanks a lot Jason. Just throw my street cred under the bus. LOL. For the record, my top 4 at both positions:
RB's
1. Jim Brown 2. Barry Sanders 3. Walter Payton 4. Emmitt Smith
WR's
1. Jerry Rice 2. Lance Alworth 3. Don Hutson 4. Cris Carter >>
WOW..Cris Carter #4 all-time?? I mean he was great in the red zone and all, but I dont know how dominant he was during his playing years...Dont get me wrong, he was easily Top 10, but 4th?? Over Marvin Harrison? Paul Warfield? Raymond Berry???Thats a tough call...
I'm going to one up you, here's my top 5...lol
1. Jim Brown 2. Walter Payton 3. Barry Sanders 4. OJ Simpson 5. Emmitt Smith
WR--
1. Jerry Rice 2. Don Hutson 3. Lance Alworth 4. Marvin Harrison 5. Paul Warfield
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
OJ ahead of Emmitt!?!? And to think I used to trust your judgement . OJ was dominant for 5 years, but... that was it. He only had five 1000-yard seasons, and no rings. He only scored 61 TDs in his career. Top 10 yeah, but not top 4.
<< <i>OJ ahead of Emmitt!?!? And to think I used to trust your judgement . OJ was dominant for 5 years, but... that was it. He only had five 1000-yard seasons, and no rings. He only scored 61 TDs in his career. Top 10 yeah, but not top 4.
Joe >>
I dont give bonus points for longevity...lol
Emmitt was always solid, and one of my favorites...But its no secret alot of his success had to do with the system he was in and the O-line he had. Dont get me wrong, Emmitt would have been great regardless of where he played...And was/is a great guy to boot..
As much as I dislike OJ the murderer, the guy was a BEAST on the gridiron. He was virtually unstoppable and if he could have stayed healthy, he might just be higher on the list...Get your hands on some of OJ's game tape or highlight reels and you'll see what I mean..And its not like he did it for one or two years
From 1972-1976 OJ was BY FAR the best RB in the game...Not one of the best, THE best...Led the league in rushing 4 of those 5 years...Averaged 6 yards per carry one year, 5.5 in another and 5.2 in another..Emmitt averaged over 5.0 just once in 1993...The Bills record from 72-76 was a combined 32-37-1...In Simpson's 9 seasons with the Bills FIVE other players made the pro bowl...5 in 9 years!
I really dont want to argue AGAINST Emmitt, because if I was drafting any of these RBs today knowing what we know about them, it would go Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith...But if I am rating my top 5 based on how good I thought they were? I think OJ was a better RB than Emmitt Smith...Not by alot, because they had very different styles, but OJ was dominant in a time when RBs didnt dominate...Kinda like comparing Don Hutsons numbers to Jerry Rice..Yeah Rice blows him away, but compared to other players of the era, Hutson MIGHT just be the #1 WR...Problem with him is that there isnt much game footage of him...And there is 10 miles of Jerry Rice film of him dominating DBs...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There are a TON of guys that would/could/should have been the best "if he could have stayed healthy." Emmitt was one of the top RBs in the league with 900+ yards for 14 of his 15 years. I hate to disrespect my man Marcus Allen, but I'd only put him in that category for 3 of his 16 years. That's the difference between longevity and long-term dominance . Emmitt also WON games and championships, and scored touchdowns.
I guess we just put different weights on longevity. If you compare OJs best 5 years to Emmitt's, OJ comes out on top. If you compare the rest of their careers, it's not even close. Outside of his great 5 years, OJ averaged less than 4.0 YPC and had 16 TDs in 6 years. As an aggregate career, there are just too many marks in the Smith column.
I rank Eric Dickerson slightly ahead of OJ. The guy just gets no respect. He stills has the single-season rushing record, as well as the most yards rushing as a rookie. In fact, I'd put Dickerson 5th on my list, and LT2 6th - with potential to rise to 3rd!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I rank Eric Dickerson slightly ahead of OJ. The guy just gets no respect. He stills has the single-season rushing record, as well as the most yards rushing as a rookie. In fact, I'd put Dickerson 5th on my list, and LT2 6th - with potential to rise to 3rd! >>
Dickerson is high on my list as well...I never understood how he did the things he did with his running style...lol
Earl Campbell would be #6 though and Dickerson probably 7...And i agree, Tomlinson is the top active player and i would put him at #9 right now with potential to go to #2 IMO...Marshall Faulk would be #8..#10 would be a tough call with a lot of really go players left, but I'd probably go Steve Van Buren...He was the first dominant RB.
Joe, I based these rankings on how good I thought each player was..Taking all aspects into consideration...900 yard seasons in 1999 are like 400 yard seasons in 1974..You cant compare the two...OJ only played 14 games a year back then...And never had a chance at a championship, never played with a top QB or top WRs...
Did you miss my prior post???---FIVE PRO BOWLERS PLAYERS IN 9 SEASONS with the Bills while OJ was there??????One man can not win a title in the NFL..NBA? Sure, but not football..lol
Cowboys probably averaged 5 per year for 10 years...
I love talkin football...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I've heard that Otto Graham was amazing, but I've never seen game film of him playing. He might crack the top 5. Rounding out the top 10 contenders would be:
Fouts, Elway, Baugh, Tittle and Staubach.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
That is a pretty valid point about Simpson's dominating the league and being the best running back by a huge margin in the early to mid-1970's. When you factor in that the second best running back from the 1970-1977 period was probably Franco Harris (with a dominating O-Line) Lydell Mitchell or Lawrence McCutcheon that speaks volumes.
Gabbs, how could you not rank Jerry Rice as the best receiver??? He is regarded by many as the best football player ever, period, so he's obviously the best at his position.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
1-Johnny Unitas (simply the master...Joe Montana Sr without Jerry Rice catching passes...lol) 2-Joe Montana (always got it done in crunch time...Great deep ball) 3-Otto Graham (10 championship games in 10 seasons, won 7 of them...105-17-4 regular season record..WOW) 4-Dan Marino (best pure passer in history) 5-Peyton Manning (Dan Marino Part 2 with potential to go to #1 if he can win a few championships)
Some comments Gabbs lists...Having Don Hutson at #1 all-time? I wont argue that, the guy was more dominant than Jerry Rice when compared to his contemporaries of his time...But, I havent seen enough game film or highlights on him to but him over Rice...
Favre threw way too many picks to make my top 5..Definitely top 10 though..Slingin Sammy Baugh is probably 6 or 7 on my list...The first real passer..
Walter was great, my #2 guy easily, but he was NOT in the same class as Jim Brown..Jim Brown looked like he was playing high school kids...lol..Bo Jackson? Maybe if he played 10 more years...Marion Motley? He was a huge power FB that liked to plow smaller defensive players...But not in my top 10..If he played today his name would be Ironhead Hayward...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Any idea on how much this will go for? The grade just popped on it.
2 31737012 1970 TOPPS 90 O.J. SIMPSON N/A 9
-Scott >>
Anywhere from $400 to $700..Usually depends on the centering..The last three on ebay all sold between $500-$575..Han't been one on in at least 2-3 months.
Good luck with it, Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Don Hutson dominated his sport like no other athlete EVER!
Only Babe Ruth is even close. In 11 years from 1919 to 1929 Ruth won 9 home run crowns and dominated the HR totals like no other player in history. The Stats
Here are the NFL pass recieving stats from 1935 to 1945 (receptions, Yds, TD's)
1. Don Hutson 488 7,991 99 2. Jim Benton 190 3,309 33 3. Charles Monroe 126 1,801 11
Hutson was 3x more productive than even the 2nd best rec of his time!! Jerry Rice nor any other player in NFL history can make this claim!!
Jasp,
Jim Brown was great (no doubt),but I give Walter a slight edge because I dont think (generally, with some HOF exceptions) the fastest and strongest players were on defense back then. I think Walter played against generally a better class of athletes on defense than Jim Brown compared to the times
Bo Jackson, notwithstanding longgevity did things at the RB position that I have never seen before or since
Sammy Baugh gets in my top 5 QB's just because of how great an overall football player he was. Still has highest punting ave in NFL history (45.1), In 1945 completed 70.3% of his passes, (not even Montana could top that), Led NFL in interceptions (as a cornerback) in 1943 with 11, Also widely considered the best drop kicker of all time. In 1943 he led the NFL in Passing, Interceptions, and Punting!! (Dan Marino, Darrell Green, and Ray Guy, all rolled into 1 player!!)
Marion Motely. Led the AAFC in rushing over 4 year period (3,024 yards 31 TD's) Dont remember Ironhead ever leading the league in anything!! lol, Steve Van Buren led the NFL in rushing in 1947,48,49 that streak ended when Motley and the Browns entered the NFL in 1950. He led the league with 810 yards and the Browns won the NFL Championship in their 1st year in the league. He was badly injured in 1951 and was never the same. Played 9 years total averaging 5.7 yards a carry (1/2 yard more that Jim Brown)
BTW, This is a great thread. Love talking about the alltime greats with you guys.
Always interesting to here everyone's take on the greatest players of alltime!!
I completely agree on Hutson....and a good comparison to Babe Ruth or even Wilt Chamberlin...he was that dominating. After all, it took around 40 years to break his career receiving TD record, which I belive was broken by Steve Largent in 1987/1988.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Great list, I would agree on every selection. I would expand this list to 21 and add:
Bart Starr , the second best playoff passer ever (Montana -1st) and 9-1 in playoff games as a starter during the best era of Football, the 1960's. Qb'd 5 Championship Packers teams. Won MVP of first 2 SB's.
Sonny Jurgensen, threw more TD's in the 1960's than any other passer and didn't start until 1961. Set record for most yards passing in a NFL season. Since broken by many in the expanded schedule.
YA Tittle, threw a record 36 TD's in a 14 game season, previous year he threw 33 TD's, and was an old dude when he accomplished this feat. Retired in '64 with most career TD's and yards passing.
Jim Kelly, 4 super Bowl appearences, tough as nails, great leader.
Sid Luckman of the Bears from the 1940's. Threw for 28 TD's in I believe a 10 or 12 game season in the early 40's. Amazing. QB of many great Bears championship teams.
Glad to see your list didn't include Joe Namath. Most overrated QB ever, imo.
I'm not enough of a student of QBS or WRs to speak to the all-time best there. I can only saw that Rice is the greatest football player I have ever seen play.
I hear what you're saying Jason about OJ playing on a bad team, but he did have HOFer Joe DeLamielleure as his lead blocker. Regardless, there's just too many "ifs" in his resume. If he didn't get hurt, if he had a better supporting cast, etc. Bottom line to me is he didn't do it long enough to crack my top 4. Same rationale for some of the other guys people sometimes bring up, like Bo and Sayers.
Gabbs, my comparison of Motley to Ironhead was style-based only. I know Motley's track record well and its a great one. I guess for me, I tend to value a players style and the way he got things done a little more than I do the substance or accumulation of stats. Both are important but I definitely like the guys who, at their best, made you say WOW when you watch them...
I disagree that OJ didnt do it long enogh...Its not like he only played 5 years..He played 11 seasons, 135 games and retired with 11,236 yards and a 4.7 YPC..Had he played in 16 game seasons that would have equated to 12,691 yards...He went to 6 Pro Bowls, first team All-Pro 5 times...He was no flash in the pan..Bo Jackson played in 38 games over 3 seasons, Gale Sayers played in 68 games over 7 seasons...There is no comparison in that way...
As far as Joe Delam is concerned, he was OJs lead blocker for 5 seasons...And I'm not sure how that de-grades OJ at all..Jim Brown had Gene Hickerson, Mike McCormack and Lou Groza as blockers...Emmit Smith had Newton, Stepnoski, Tuinei, Larry Allen and Eric Williams...All pro-bowlers at one time or another...OJ had ONE the one guy, plus QBs of Joe Ferguson and Dennis Shaw...
Its really just matter of opinion...As all the guys we are talking about were top notch players in there day...And arguments could be made for each of them..
Shag, you've got Tarkenton WAY too high on that list....Peyton Manning 10? Otto Graham 11? Your insane...j/k....lolol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason - I agree with your ranking of Marino (actually I would put him #2 behind Montana - of players I have seen play) and Favre but you mention that Favre threw too many interceptions. However, that is because of Favre's last four seasons. In their primes Marino threw more picks than Favre.
I also see somebody mentioned Namath as being overrated, which is now more common than people saying he was any good. In fairness to Joe he is the best long passer in the history of the game and very similar to Terry Bradshaw.
<< <i>Shag, you've got Tarkenton WAY too high on that list....Peyton Manning 10? Otto Graham 11? Your insane...j/k....lolol >>
Yeah, you're right on Graham. He needs to be higher. I wrote that list real quick. I'm a big Tarkenton fan. I think he helped to usher in the era of the scrambling QB - and he was damn good at it too! Held all the records when he retired. Manning has all the potential to shoot up to the top 5, maybe even top 3.
As for Favre, the guy just has WAY too many bonehead plays on his resume to be a top 5 QB. There have been times when I've watched him and witnessed greatness. Other time it looks like I'm watching someone play QB for the very first time. I absolutely love his toughness (I'd rank THAT # 1 all time), but he's just been too inconsistent over the years.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I'd put Favre probably around #8...So many great QBs, its tough to rank them..All very different...
Shag, Tark had all the records because he played for 18 years...lol..I dont think he would make my top 10..Probably in the 11-15 range...
I think Peyton is already in the top 5..He is as dominant a QB thats been in the league since Marino...He's definitely better than Favre even in his prime...I'mnot a Peyton fan either, I am a Jaguars fan so Peyton is the enemy...But almost every time I watch the guy play, hes a surgeon, and his grasp of the game, calling audibles and all that is 2nd to no one that Ive watched...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I think Peyton is already in the top 5..He is as dominant a QB thats been in the league since Marino >>
So why'd you vote against adding him to the QB's set last year? Has he gotten that much better this season?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
As I said prior to the season, I wanted to see at least one more dominant year from Peyton, and he gave us just that...Finishing 3rd in the MVP vote and a game away from the Super Bowl...Had he put up a bad, non-pro bowl type year and missed the playoffs this season he would have been added too soon. He wasn't #5 on my list at this time last year..And the longer and more dominant seasons he puts up, the higher he can move up the list...Just like Tomlinson.
Kurt Warner is the poster child for why you dont add guys to these sets to soon. I never want to see a card that I purchased to be part of a set get deleted from that set again because an MVP+Super Bowl MVP goes from riches to rags...He was added when he was the dominant QB in the league, but he was added to soon. Something I hope everyone voting for cards to be added to these sets will also consider inthe future.
Tom Brady is likely the next guy to be added to the QB set..If I was rating the top 20 QBs of all time, Brady would be around 20 right now if he was even on my list. He just hasnt played long enough and really isnt all that dominant in the regular season..Obviously the 3 super bowl rings helps his case, and if he were to win another one this year, he would go from around 20 on my list to around 11-12 and deserving of being on the set...Brady got turned down prior to this season, and unless he wins the Super Bowl again, won't be ready prior to next season either.
Its all about the body of work...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sorry to interupt the debate, but I have a question. Does anyone have a scan of a 48 Leaf McAfee card with Georgeous on the front? I would like to buy one but I have never even seen one.
BTW.... After Manning gets his ring this year, he should be considered in the top 3 of all time..
<< <i>Sorry to interupt the debate, but I have a question. Does anyone have a scan of a 48 Leaf McAfee card with Georgeous on the front? I would like to buy one but I have never even seen one.
BTW.... After Manning gets his ring this year, he should be considered in the top 3 of all time..
GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
dave >>
Dave, I've seen both PSA 7's labeled and shown in the POP report as "Gorgeous George On Front" (there are only 2 of them) and neither has "Gorgeous" on the front...I own one of them. I assumed it was a labeling error until the other one showed upon ebay a few months back..Now i'm not sure if its an error, or if I am missing something. Ive never seen the card with the word "Gorgeous" on the front...If you find one, let me know I'd like to see it as well, then I will know for sure that my PSA 7 is mis-labeled..You can check out my scan if its not still messed up and see what Im talking about...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If anyone is interested in learning/watching film of some of these legendary players we've been discussing, check out NFL Netowk over the next 2 weeks...
America Game--Profiling the Top 20 Super Bowl teams of all time has been excellent so far..They've done 20-13 so far..
Starting Monday, they are re-airing Super Bowls from whistle to whistle..3 hour, entire game...
Next Sunday (28th all day long) they are airing the 30 minute highlight films of every single Super Bowl...So for me, next Sunday willnot be a day without football...Might need to take Monday off after pulling the all-nighter...lol
Anyway,just thought I'd throw it out there since we've been talking about many of the guys who took part in those games..If you dont have NFL Network, I hope you arent even in this conversation...How could own a TV and not have NFL Network..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If anyone is interested in learning/watching film of some of these legendary players we've been discussing, check out NFL Netowk over the next 2 weeks...
America Game--Profiling the Top 20 Super Bowl teams of all time has been excellent so far..They've done 20-13 so far..
Starting Monday, they are re-airing Super Bowls from whistle to whistle..3 hour, entire game...
Next Sunday (28th all day long) they are airing the 30 minute highlight films of every single Super Bowl...So for me, next Sunday willnot be a day without football...Might need to take Monday off after pulling the all-nighter...lol
Anyway,just thought I'd throw it out there since we've been talking about many of the guys who took part in those games..If you dont have NFL Network, I hope you arent even in this conversation...How could own a TV and not have NFL Network..lol
Jason >>
If Tony Kornheiser's plight is any indication, cable companies have been having a hard time seeing eye to eye with the network in some places. Makes me glad I have DirecTV.
America's Game is a really stellar addition to their lineup.
They aired SB XXII last Monday. That was a lot of fun to watch in it's entirety. XIII is up on Monday. I'm going to have to watch that and savor the sweet nectar of Cowboy misery. That was the third game I actually watched and the first one to turn out the way I wanted.
Gabbs, I like the boldness of your RB top 5. I also have Brown, Payton (essentially inseperable on top of the pile), Sanders and a couple of atypical wild cards (Sayers and Earl Campbell), so I appreciate where you're coming from.
In re the QB debate, do any of you guys own The Sporting News 50 Greatest Quarterbacks hardcover? It's a great looking book with a lot of food for thought on this matter.
<< <i>Dave, I've seen both PSA 7's labeled and shown in the POP report as "Gorgeous George On Front" (there are only 2 of them) and neither has "Gorgeous" on the front...I own one of them. I assumed it was a labeling error until the other one showed upon ebay a few months back..Now i'm not sure if its an error, or if I am missing something. Ive never seen the card with the word "Gorgeous" on the front...If you find one, let me know I'd like to see it as well, then I will know for sure that my PSA 7 is mis-labeled..You can check out my scan if its not still messed up and see what Im talking about... >>
Yeah, I've seen the mislabeled ones as well. I believe all of them say gorgeous george on the back? I thought that maybe some don't have georgeous on the back but all I've seen have it. I guess if you havn't seen one, they must be super rare, if they even exist.
The NFL network is not available in my area (Milwaukee, WI.) and that just sucks. It might be on dish, but I have cable.
Seems like ESPN, which used to show all the old NFL highlight reels from the good old day in Football, must have given or sold their library of old films to the NFL network. I don't see ESPN broadcasting them anymore. Or ESPN won't pay NFL films for the rights to show them any longer.
<< <i>Jason - I agree with your ranking of Marino (actually I would put him #2 behind Montana - of players I have seen play) and Favre but you mention that Favre threw too many interceptions. However, that is because of Favre's last four seasons. In their primes Marino threw more picks than Favre.
I also see somebody mentioned Namath as being overrated, which is now more common than people saying he was any good. In fairness to Joe he is the best long passer in the history of the game and very similar to Terry Bradshaw. >>
Hate to knock Namath, as I actually like him as a player, but I just feel he got way, way too much credit for his Super Bowl 3 prediction. I realize that the Jets were like 18 point underdogs going into that game against the Colts, but if you look at Namath's other career numbers: the Jets had a below .500 record while he was the starter, he completed less than 50% of his passes, had about 40 more int's than TD's, and was mediocre in most every other post season game he played in besides the big one, he's over rated in the history of the game for his position. Injuries certainly played a part with some of his poor numbers.
The comparison to Bradshaw is close for arm strength and average stats but Joe didn't win four titles while he played like Bradshaw.
I'll give you that Namath was a tremendous long ball thrower and had a gun for an arm. However I don't know if he was the best down the field thrower of his era. Think of all the bombs that John Hadl dropped on Alworth or Gary Garrison in the 1960's. Jurgensen was a better and more accurate deep thrower imo too.
Namath had a colorful career and was fun to watch but to me I wouldn't rank him higher than John Hadl, Roman Gabriel or John Brodie (who are all somewhat overlooked and under rated) from the same era.
You have to factor in the rusty hinges he was trying to get around on, too, but your points, especially about those other guys, are well taken.
I meant to mention before that another factor in measuring O.J. Simpson's career is that he was underutilized in his first three years, until Lou Saban took over the Bills.
Gabbs, you've definitely given me some food for thought on Hutson. I still gotta rank Rice # 1, but I think I'd flip-flop Alworth and Hutson. Too bad he didn't have any cards from during his playing days. The '55 AA is a great card, but it's tough to view it as a true rookie since it came out after he retired.
By the way, where do you get all your stats from? I use football-reference.com for the modern stuff, but they're really not good for anything pre-1960 or so. I'm also looking for a site where I can find sack totals. They're not on football-reference.com either.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i> By the way, where do you get all your stats from? I use football-reference.com for the modern stuff, but they're really not good for anything pre-1960 or so. I'm also looking for a site where I can find sack totals. They're not on football-reference.com either. >>
Shag:
Bruce Smith--200 Reggie White--198 Kevin Greene--160 Chris Doleman--150.5 Richard Dent--137.5 John Randle--137.5 Lawrence Taylor--132.5 Leslie O'Neal--132.5 Michael Strahan--132.5 Rickey Jackson--128
Sacks didnt become an official stat until 1982...Here are the UNofficial all-time leaders:
Bruce Smith--200 Reggie White--198 Deacon Jones--173.5 Kevin Greene--160 Jack Youngblood-151.5 Chris Doleman--150.5 Alan Page 148.5 Lawrence Taylor--142 Richard Dent--137.5 John Randle--137.5 Rickey Jackson--136 Carl Eller 133.5 Leslie O'Neal--132.5 Michael Strahan--132.5 Coy Bacon--130
Anything else???lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Rich - Good points about Namath. The guarantee in 68 and the subsequent victory certainly have given Namath a legacy that his numbers do not justify. Certainly Namath has been given a huge amount of credit for that victory, perhaps way too much.
But, I think the further removed someone is from playing the more people judge a player based on their statistics without putting them in context. I do not rank Namath in the top 15 but if I were running an offense and needed a deep passer Namath would be my #1 pick.
What was his record as the Jets starter? Not including the seasons were he played less than 8 games I have him being 8 games over .500.
The only point I really see as a knock is the lack of touchdown passes he threw. His completion percentage is low but that is because he seldom if ever dumped the ball off. His yards per attempt is high and in 67 and 68 the numbers were over 8.2. He has three seasons with a yards per attempt over 8. Dan Marino only had 1 and Joe Montana had 2. Chad Pennington completes 65% of his throws, Namath 51% but Namath is more effective. Given the amount of times he threw the ball down the field, and in the context of his era, a 50% completion percentage is not a negative.
Namath's yards per completion is simply amazing, especially given his receivers. In 1968 when he completed ony 49% of his throws his average completion went for 16.8 yards. In 1972 with Eddie Bell, Don Maynard and Rich Caster as his receivers he completed only 50% of his throws but the average completion was 17.3 yards. I would guess that none of his receivers were world class at yards after the catch. His average completion numbers are not close to being matched.
When he played a full season the Jets were right up their in scoring points so my guess is that they had a lot more rushing touchdowns than they did throwing the ball. It would be interesting to see where Namath ranks in terms of touchdown passes over 20 yards, or over 50 yards.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
My personal data..Not sure if its on the net anywhere...
Much of my official numbers were confirmed by the 1,400 page Pro Football Encyclopedia from a couple of years back,and I update the active players within my own spreadsheets.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My personal data..Not sure if its on the net anywhere... >>
(Me on my knees, waving both arms up and down) I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. LOL. How many sacks did Derrick Thomas have?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>My personal data..Not sure if its on the net anywhere... >>
(Me on my knees, waving both arms up and down) I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. LOL. How many sacks did Derrick Thomas have? >>
LOL
DT had 126.5 before his career was cut short.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
shagrotn77 - Although it is the long way of finding out the information via the net you can find sack totals for individual players on each teams home web page. The KC Chiefs website will have all of Thomas stats including forced fumbles (45) , fumbles recovered (19) , sacks (126.5), etc.
Seems to me that DT put up Hall of Fame numbers during his stellar career, which included 9 Pro Bowls. It was incredible shame what happened to him (his crash is what convinced me to start wearing a seat belt). If he went in first ballot, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye. He was dominant.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Seems to me that DT put up Hall of Fame numbers during his stellar career, which included 9 Pro Bowls. It was incredible shame what happened to him (his crash is what convinced me to start wearing a seat belt). If he went in first ballot, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye. He was dominant. >>
Agreed and I would be shocked if he gets passed over again...He's the top defensive player among the finalists..If he were a DE, he'd be in already..I think the knock on him is that as an LB, he wasn't as good in run support or pass coverage as he was at sacking the QB..Kevin Greene is having the same problem.
When you look at the top 10 official list, its clear that sacks alone arent getting you to the HOF..Greene cant make the finals, Chris Doleman and Rickey Jackson cant get into the semi-finals and Leslie O'Neal wasnt even NOMINATED this year...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Does anyone know the requirements for a rookie card to be added to the HOF rc set or a key card set? If memory serves me correctly, does the card have to be #'d greater than 999, no auto, no game used?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Does anyone know the requirements for a rookie card to be added to the HOF rc set or a key card set? If memory serves me correctly, does the card have to be #'d greater than 999, no auto, no game used?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
From PSA---
HOF and Key Card Sets: Additions to the HOF and Key Card sets are possible. Every year new HOF inductions are made. In addition, some players may have performed well enough in recent years to warrant addition to All-Time sets. In some cases only one card will qualify for addition to the set. In some cases, several cards may qualify and members participating in the set will be polled for their opinion. The majority vote will determine which card is added. If less than 50% of the members polled respond, then experts at PSA will select the card for addition. If a rookie card is to be added, the card selected must be considered one of the most popular and no autographed, jersey or insert cards will qualify.
Greg, no decision has been made on how low the serial numbered cards need to be before being allowed. My guess is 999 as the lowest..Anything lower just doesnt make sense. We want everyone to have the opportunity to collect these sets. Luckily, most regular base issue cards are not numbered lower than 999.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Thanks Jason. I've been thinking of picking up Urlacher and Brady rc's and I assume the SP Authentic will the cards that will be added. Also, is the Topps Chrome the card to get for LT?
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Though nothing is etched in stone yet, I'd say yes on all 3.
Shag
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
those who are down on Namath's worthiness of being an absolute top 15(at the least) all-time QB have obviously never watched him,stats don't always tell the complete story. With an actual decent set of knees, he would be top 5 no question whatsoever.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Shag thinks Barry Sanders and Harold Jackson were the greatest ever at their position, while I whole-heartedly disagree...lol >>
Thanks a lot Jason. Just throw my street cred under the bus. LOL. For the record, my top 4 at both positions:
RB's
1. Jim Brown
2. Barry Sanders
3. Walter Payton
4. Emmitt Smith
WR's
1. Jerry Rice
2. Lance Alworth
3. Don Hutson
4. Cris Carter >>
WOW..Cris Carter #4 all-time?? I mean he was great in the red zone and all, but I dont know how dominant he was during his playing years...Dont get me wrong, he was easily Top 10, but 4th?? Over Marvin Harrison? Paul Warfield? Raymond Berry???Thats a tough call...
I'm going to one up you, here's my top 5...lol
1. Jim Brown
2. Walter Payton
3. Barry Sanders
4. OJ Simpson
5. Emmitt Smith
WR--
1. Jerry Rice
2. Don Hutson
3. Lance Alworth
4. Marvin Harrison
5. Paul Warfield
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Joe
<< <i>OJ ahead of Emmitt!?!? And to think I used to trust your judgement
Joe >>
I dont give bonus points for longevity...lol
Emmitt was always solid, and one of my favorites...But its no secret alot of his success had to do with the system he was in and the O-line he had. Dont get me wrong, Emmitt would have been great regardless of where he played...And was/is a great guy to boot..
As much as I dislike OJ the murderer, the guy was a BEAST on the gridiron. He was virtually unstoppable and if he could have stayed healthy, he might just be higher on the list...Get your hands on some of OJ's game tape or highlight reels and you'll see what I mean..And its not like he did it for one or two years
From 1972-1976 OJ was BY FAR the best RB in the game...Not one of the best, THE best...Led the league in rushing 4 of those 5 years...Averaged 6 yards per carry one year, 5.5 in another and 5.2 in another..Emmitt averaged over 5.0 just once in 1993...The Bills record from 72-76 was a combined 32-37-1...In Simpson's 9 seasons with the Bills FIVE other players made the pro bowl...5 in 9 years!
I really dont want to argue AGAINST Emmitt, because if I was drafting any of these RBs today knowing what we know about them, it would go Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith...But if I am rating my top 5 based on how good I thought they were? I think OJ was a better RB than Emmitt Smith...Not by alot, because they had very different styles, but OJ was dominant in a time when RBs didnt dominate...Kinda like comparing Don Hutsons numbers to Jerry Rice..Yeah Rice blows him away, but compared to other players of the era, Hutson MIGHT just be the #1 WR...Problem with him is that there isnt much game footage of him...And there is 10 miles of Jerry Rice film of him dominating DBs...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I guess we just put different weights on longevity. If you compare OJs best 5 years to Emmitt's, OJ comes out on top. If you compare the rest of their careers, it's not even close. Outside of his great 5 years, OJ averaged less than 4.0 YPC and had 16 TDs in 6 years. As an aggregate career, there are just too many marks in the Smith column.
Joe
<< <i>I rank Eric Dickerson slightly ahead of OJ. The guy just gets no respect. He stills has the single-season rushing record, as well as the most yards rushing as a rookie. In fact, I'd put Dickerson 5th on my list, and LT2 6th - with potential to rise to 3rd! >>
Dickerson is high on my list as well...I never understood how he did the things he did with his running style...lol
Earl Campbell would be #6 though and Dickerson probably 7...And i agree, Tomlinson is the top active player and i would put him at #9 right now with potential to go to #2 IMO...Marshall Faulk would be #8..#10 would be a tough call with a lot of really go players left, but I'd probably go Steve Van Buren...He was the first dominant RB.
Joe, I based these rankings on how good I thought each player was..Taking all aspects into consideration...900 yard seasons in 1999 are like 400 yard seasons in 1974..You cant compare the two...OJ only played 14 games a year back then...And never had a chance at a championship, never played with a top QB or top WRs...
Did you miss my prior post???---FIVE PRO BOWLERS PLAYERS IN 9 SEASONS with the Bills while OJ was there??????One man can not win a title in the NFL..NBA? Sure, but not football..lol
Cowboys probably averaged 5 per year for 10 years...
I love talkin football...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
How would you rate QB's? My top 5
1. Unitas
2. Marino
3. Montana
4. P. Manning
5. Favre
I've heard that Otto Graham was amazing, but I've never seen game film of him playing. He might crack the top 5. Rounding out the top 10 contenders would be:
Fouts, Elway, Baugh, Tittle and Staubach.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
2. Unitas
3. Marino
4. Tarkenton
5. Dawson
6. Elway
7. Baugh
8. Young
9. Staubach
10. Manning
11. Graham
12. Favre
13. Fouts
14. Bradshaw
15. Brady
16. Moon
There, that's my top 16!
QB:
1. Otto Graham
2. John Unitas
3. Joe Montana
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Brett Favre
RB:
1. Walter Payton
2. Jim Brown
3. Bo Jackson
4. Barry Sanders
5. Marion Motely
WR:
1. Don Hutson
2. Jerry Rice
3. Raymond Berry
4. Lance Alworth
5. Marvin Harrison
Regards, Gabbs
1-Johnny Unitas (simply the master...Joe Montana Sr without Jerry Rice catching passes...lol)
2-Joe Montana (always got it done in crunch time...Great deep ball)
3-Otto Graham (10 championship games in 10 seasons, won 7 of them...105-17-4 regular season record..WOW)
4-Dan Marino (best pure passer in history)
5-Peyton Manning (Dan Marino Part 2 with potential to go to #1 if he can win a few championships)
Some comments Gabbs lists...Having Don Hutson at #1 all-time? I wont argue that, the guy was more dominant than Jerry Rice when compared to his contemporaries of his time...But, I havent seen enough game film or highlights on him to but him over Rice...
Favre threw way too many picks to make my top 5..Definitely top 10 though..Slingin Sammy Baugh is probably 6 or 7 on my list...The first real passer..
Walter was great, my #2 guy easily, but he was NOT in the same class as Jim Brown..Jim Brown looked like he was playing high school kids...lol..Bo Jackson? Maybe if he played 10 more years...Marion Motley? He was a huge power FB that liked to plow smaller defensive players...But not in my top 10..If he played today his name would be Ironhead Hayward...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2 31737012 1970 TOPPS 90 O.J. SIMPSON N/A 9
-Scott
1977 Topps Star Wars - "Space Swashbucklers"
<< <i>Any idea on how much this will go for? The grade just popped on it.
2 31737012 1970 TOPPS 90 O.J. SIMPSON N/A 9
-Scott >>
Anywhere from $400 to $700..Usually depends on the centering..The last three on ebay all sold between $500-$575..Han't been one on in at least 2-3 months.
Good luck with it,
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Don Hutson dominated his sport like no other athlete EVER!
Only Babe Ruth is even close. In 11 years from 1919 to 1929 Ruth won 9 home run crowns and dominated the HR totals like no other player in history. The Stats
1. Babe Ruth 496
2. Rogers Hornsby 258
3. Cy Williams 211
Here are the NFL pass recieving stats from 1935 to 1945 (receptions, Yds, TD's)
1. Don Hutson 488 7,991 99
2. Jim Benton 190 3,309 33
3. Charles Monroe 126 1,801 11
Hutson was 3x more productive than even the 2nd best rec of his time!! Jerry Rice nor any other player in NFL history can make this claim!!
Jasp,
Jim Brown was great (no doubt),but I give Walter a slight edge because I dont think (generally, with some HOF exceptions) the fastest and strongest players were on defense back then.
I think Walter played against generally a better class of athletes on defense than Jim Brown compared to the times
Bo Jackson, notwithstanding longgevity did things at the RB position that I have never seen before or since
Sammy Baugh gets in my top 5 QB's just because of how great an overall football player he was. Still has highest punting ave in NFL history (45.1), In 1945 completed 70.3% of his passes, (not even Montana could top that), Led NFL in interceptions (as a cornerback) in 1943 with 11, Also widely considered the best drop kicker of all time. In 1943 he led the NFL in Passing, Interceptions, and Punting!! (Dan Marino, Darrell Green, and Ray Guy, all rolled into 1 player!!)
Marion Motely. Led the AAFC in rushing over 4 year period (3,024 yards 31 TD's) Dont remember Ironhead ever leading the league in anything!! lol, Steve Van Buren led the NFL in rushing in 1947,48,49 that streak ended when Motley and the Browns entered the NFL in 1950. He led the league with 810 yards and the Browns won the NFL Championship in their 1st year in the league. He was badly injured in 1951 and was never the same. Played 9 years total averaging 5.7 yards a carry (1/2 yard more that Jim Brown)
BTW,
This is a great thread. Love talking about the alltime greats with you guys.
Always interesting to here everyone's take on the greatest players of alltime!!
Regards, Gabbs
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>1. Montana
2. Unitas
3. Marino
4. Tarkenton
5. Dawson
6. Elway
7. Baugh
8. Young
9. Staubach
10. Manning
11. Graham
12. Favre
13. Fouts
14. Bradshaw
15. Brady
16. Moon
There, that's my top 16! >>
Great list, I would agree on every selection.
I would expand this list to 21 and add:
Bart Starr , the second best playoff passer ever (Montana -1st) and 9-1 in playoff games as a starter during the best era of Football, the 1960's. Qb'd 5 Championship Packers teams. Won MVP of first 2 SB's.
Sonny Jurgensen, threw more TD's in the 1960's than any other passer and didn't start until 1961. Set record for most yards passing in a NFL season. Since broken by many in the expanded schedule.
YA Tittle, threw a record 36 TD's in a 14 game season, previous year he threw 33 TD's, and was an old dude when he accomplished this feat. Retired in '64 with most career TD's and yards passing.
Jim Kelly, 4 super Bowl appearences, tough as nails, great leader.
Sid Luckman of the Bears from the 1940's. Threw for 28 TD's in I believe a 10 or 12 game season in the early 40's. Amazing. QB of many great Bears championship teams.
Glad to see your list didn't include Joe Namath. Most overrated QB ever, imo.
I hear what you're saying Jason about OJ playing on a bad team, but he did have HOFer Joe DeLamielleure as his lead blocker. Regardless, there's just too many "ifs" in his resume. If he didn't get hurt, if he had a better supporting cast, etc. Bottom line to me is he didn't do it long enough to crack my top 4. Same rationale for some of the other guys people sometimes bring up, like Bo and Sayers.
Joe
I disagree that OJ didnt do it long enogh...Its not like he only played 5 years..He played 11 seasons, 135 games and retired with 11,236 yards and a 4.7 YPC..Had he played in 16 game seasons that would have equated to 12,691 yards...He went to 6 Pro Bowls, first team All-Pro 5 times...He was no flash in the pan..Bo Jackson played in 38 games over 3 seasons, Gale Sayers played in 68 games over 7 seasons...There is no comparison in that way...
As far as Joe Delam is concerned, he was OJs lead blocker for 5 seasons...And I'm not sure how that de-grades OJ at all..Jim Brown had Gene Hickerson, Mike McCormack and Lou Groza as blockers...Emmit Smith had Newton, Stepnoski, Tuinei, Larry Allen and Eric Williams...All pro-bowlers at one time or another...OJ had ONE the one guy, plus QBs of Joe Ferguson and Dennis Shaw...
Its really just matter of opinion...As all the guys we are talking about were top notch players in there day...And arguments could be made for each of them..
Shag, you've got Tarkenton WAY too high on that list....Peyton Manning 10? Otto Graham 11? Your insane...j/k....lolol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Favre only #12? >>
I have Favre around 4 to 6. I have alwasy loved his toughness...and he has an incredible arm.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
I also see somebody mentioned Namath as being overrated, which is now more common than people saying he was any good. In fairness to Joe he is the best long passer in the history of the game and very similar to Terry Bradshaw.
<< <i>Shag, you've got Tarkenton WAY too high on that list....Peyton Manning 10? Otto Graham 11? Your insane...j/k....lolol >>
Yeah, you're right on Graham. He needs to be higher. I wrote that list real quick. I'm a big Tarkenton fan. I think he helped to usher in the era of the scrambling QB - and he was damn good at it too! Held all the records when he retired. Manning has all the potential to shoot up to the top 5, maybe even top 3.
As for Favre, the guy just has WAY too many bonehead plays on his resume to be a top 5 QB. There have been times when I've watched him and witnessed greatness. Other time it looks like I'm watching someone play QB for the very first time. I absolutely love his toughness (I'd rank THAT # 1 all time), but he's just been too inconsistent over the years.
Shag, Tark had all the records because he played for 18 years...lol..I dont think he would make my top 10..Probably in the 11-15 range...
I think Peyton is already in the top 5..He is as dominant a QB thats been in the league since Marino...He's definitely better than Favre even in his prime...I'mnot a Peyton fan either, I am a Jaguars fan so Peyton is the enemy...But almost every time I watch the guy play, hes a surgeon, and his grasp of the game, calling audibles and all that is 2nd to no one that Ive watched...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I think Peyton is already in the top 5..He is as dominant a QB thats been in the league since Marino >>
So why'd you vote against adding him to the QB's set last year?
Kurt Warner is the poster child for why you dont add guys to these sets to soon. I never want to see a card that I purchased to be part of a set get deleted from that set again because an MVP+Super Bowl MVP goes from riches to rags...He was added when he was the dominant QB in the league, but he was added to soon. Something I hope everyone voting for cards to be added to these sets will also consider inthe future.
Tom Brady is likely the next guy to be added to the QB set..If I was rating the top 20 QBs of all time, Brady would be around 20 right now if he was even on my list. He just hasnt played long enough and really isnt all that dominant in the regular season..Obviously the 3 super bowl rings helps his case, and if he were to win another one this year, he would go from around 20 on my list to around 11-12 and deserving of being on the set...Brady got turned down prior to this season, and unless he wins the Super Bowl again, won't be ready prior to next season either.
Its all about the body of work...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
BTW.... After Manning gets his ring this year, he should be considered in the top 3 of all time..
GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Sorry to interupt the debate, but I have a question. Does anyone have a scan of a 48 Leaf McAfee card with Georgeous on the front? I would like to buy one but I have never even seen one.
BTW.... After Manning gets his ring this year, he should be considered in the top 3 of all time..
GO COLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
dave >>
Dave, I've seen both PSA 7's labeled and shown in the POP report as "Gorgeous George On Front" (there are only 2 of them) and neither has "Gorgeous" on the front...I own one of them. I assumed it was a labeling error until the other one showed upon ebay a few months back..Now i'm not sure if its an error, or if I am missing something. Ive never seen the card with the word "Gorgeous" on the front...If you find one, let me know I'd like to see it as well, then I will know for sure that my PSA 7 is mis-labeled..You can check out my scan if its not still messed up and see what Im talking about...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If anyone is interested in learning/watching film of some of these legendary players we've been discussing, check out NFL Netowk over the next 2 weeks...
America Game--Profiling the Top 20 Super Bowl teams of all time has been excellent so far..They've done 20-13 so far..
Starting Monday, they are re-airing Super Bowls from whistle to whistle..3 hour, entire game...
Next Sunday (28th all day long) they are airing the 30 minute highlight films of every single Super Bowl...So for me, next Sunday willnot be a day without football...Might need to take Monday off after pulling the all-nighter...lol
Anyway,just thought I'd throw it out there since we've been talking about many of the guys who took part in those games..If you dont have NFL Network, I hope you arent even in this conversation...How could own a TV and not have NFL Network..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>BTW,
If anyone is interested in learning/watching film of some of these legendary players we've been discussing, check out NFL Netowk over the next 2 weeks...
America Game--Profiling the Top 20 Super Bowl teams of all time has been excellent so far..They've done 20-13 so far..
Starting Monday, they are re-airing Super Bowls from whistle to whistle..3 hour, entire game...
Next Sunday (28th all day long) they are airing the 30 minute highlight films of every single Super Bowl...So for me, next Sunday willnot be a day without football...Might need to take Monday off after pulling the all-nighter...lol
Anyway,just thought I'd throw it out there since we've been talking about many of the guys who took part in those games..If you dont have NFL Network, I hope you arent even in this conversation...How could own a TV and not have NFL Network..lol
Jason >>
If Tony Kornheiser's plight is any indication, cable companies have been having a hard time seeing eye to eye with the network in some places. Makes me glad I have DirecTV.
America's Game is a really stellar addition to their lineup.
They aired SB XXII last Monday. That was a lot of fun to watch in it's entirety. XIII is up on Monday. I'm going to have to watch that and savor the sweet nectar of Cowboy misery. That was the third game I actually watched and the first one to turn out the way I wanted.
Gabbs, I like the boldness of your RB top 5. I also have Brown, Payton (essentially inseperable on top of the pile), Sanders and a couple of atypical wild cards (Sayers and Earl Campbell), so I appreciate where you're coming from.
In re the QB debate, do any of you guys own The Sporting News 50 Greatest Quarterbacks hardcover? It's a great looking book with a lot of food for thought on this matter.
<< <i>Dave, I've seen both PSA 7's labeled and shown in the POP report as "Gorgeous George On Front" (there are only 2 of them) and neither has "Gorgeous" on the front...I own one of them. I assumed it was a labeling error until the other one showed upon ebay a few months back..Now i'm not sure if its an error, or if I am missing something. Ive never seen the card with the word "Gorgeous" on the front...If you find one, let me know I'd like to see it as well, then I will know for sure that my PSA 7 is mis-labeled..You can check out my scan if its not still messed up and see what Im talking about... >>
Yeah, I've seen the mislabeled ones as well. I believe all of them say gorgeous george on the back? I thought that maybe some don't have georgeous on the back but all I've seen have it. I guess if you havn't seen one, they must be super rare, if they even exist.
Thanks
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Seems like ESPN, which used to show all the old NFL highlight reels from the good old day in Football, must have given or sold their library of old films to the NFL network. I don't see ESPN broadcasting them anymore. Or ESPN won't pay NFL films for the rights to show them any longer.
<< <i>Jason - I agree with your ranking of Marino (actually I would put him #2 behind Montana - of players I have seen play) and Favre but you mention that Favre threw too many interceptions. However, that is because of Favre's last four seasons. In their primes Marino threw more picks than Favre.
I also see somebody mentioned Namath as being overrated, which is now more common than people saying he was any good. In fairness to Joe he is the best long passer in the history of the game and very similar to Terry Bradshaw. >>
Hate to knock Namath, as I actually like him as a player, but I just feel he got way, way too much credit for his Super Bowl 3 prediction. I realize that the Jets were like 18 point underdogs going into that game against the Colts, but if you look at Namath's other career numbers: the Jets had a below .500 record while he was the starter, he completed less than 50% of his passes, had about 40 more int's than TD's, and was mediocre in most every other post season game he played in besides the big one, he's over rated in the history of the game for his position. Injuries certainly played a part with some of his poor numbers.
The comparison to Bradshaw is close for arm strength and average stats but Joe didn't win four titles while he played like Bradshaw.
I'll give you that Namath was a tremendous long ball thrower and had a gun for an arm. However I don't know if he was the best down the field thrower of his era. Think of all the bombs that John Hadl dropped on Alworth or Gary Garrison in the 1960's. Jurgensen was a better and more accurate deep thrower imo too.
Namath had a colorful career and was fun to watch but to me I wouldn't rank him higher than John Hadl, Roman Gabriel or John Brodie (who are all somewhat overlooked and under rated) from the same era.
Rich
I meant to mention before that another factor in measuring O.J. Simpson's career is that he was underutilized in his first three years, until Lou Saban took over the Bills.
By the way, where do you get all your stats from? I use football-reference.com for the modern stuff, but they're really not good for anything pre-1960 or so. I'm also looking for a site where I can find sack totals. They're not on football-reference.com either.
<< <i>
By the way, where do you get all your stats from? I use football-reference.com for the modern stuff, but they're really not good for anything pre-1960 or so. I'm also looking for a site where I can find sack totals. They're not on football-reference.com either. >>
Shag:
Bruce Smith--200
Reggie White--198
Kevin Greene--160
Chris Doleman--150.5
Richard Dent--137.5
John Randle--137.5
Lawrence Taylor--132.5
Leslie O'Neal--132.5
Michael Strahan--132.5
Rickey Jackson--128
Sacks didnt become an official stat until 1982...Here are the UNofficial all-time leaders:
Bruce Smith--200
Reggie White--198
Deacon Jones--173.5
Kevin Greene--160
Jack Youngblood-151.5
Chris Doleman--150.5
Alan Page 148.5
Lawrence Taylor--142
Richard Dent--137.5
John Randle--137.5
Rickey Jackson--136
Carl Eller 133.5
Leslie O'Neal--132.5
Michael Strahan--132.5
Coy Bacon--130
Anything else???lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
But, I think the further removed someone is from playing the more people judge a player based on their statistics without putting them in context. I do not rank Namath in the top 15 but if I were running an offense and needed a deep passer Namath would be my #1 pick.
What was his record as the Jets starter? Not including the seasons were he played less than 8 games I have him being 8 games over .500.
The only point I really see as a knock is the lack of touchdown passes he threw. His completion percentage is low but that is because he seldom if ever dumped the ball off. His yards per attempt is high and in 67 and 68 the numbers were over 8.2. He has three seasons with a yards per attempt over 8. Dan Marino only had 1 and Joe Montana had 2. Chad Pennington completes 65% of his throws, Namath 51% but Namath is more effective. Given the amount of times he threw the ball down the field, and in the context of his era, a 50% completion percentage is not a negative.
Namath's yards per completion is simply amazing, especially given his receivers. In 1968 when he completed ony 49% of his throws his average completion went for 16.8 yards. In 1972 with Eddie Bell, Don Maynard and Rich Caster as his receivers he completed only 50% of his throws but the average completion was 17.3 yards. I would guess that none of his receivers were world class at yards after the catch. His average completion numbers are not close to being matched.
When he played a full season the Jets were right up their in scoring points so my guess is that they had a lot more rushing touchdowns than they did throwing the ball. It would be interesting to see where Namath ranks in terms of touchdown passes over 20 yards, or over 50 yards.
Much of my official numbers were confirmed by the 1,400 page Pro Football Encyclopedia from a couple of years back,and I update the active players within my own spreadsheets.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>My personal data..Not sure if its on the net anywhere... >>
(Me on my knees, waving both arms up and down) I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. LOL. How many sacks did Derrick Thomas have?
<< <i>
<< <i>My personal data..Not sure if its on the net anywhere... >>
(Me on my knees, waving both arms up and down) I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy. LOL. How many sacks did Derrick Thomas have? >>
LOL
DT had 126.5 before his career was cut short.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Seems to me that DT put up Hall of Fame numbers during his stellar career, which included 9 Pro Bowls. It was incredible shame what happened to him (his crash is what convinced me to start wearing a seat belt). If he went in first ballot, I doubt anyone would have batted an eye. He was dominant. >>
Agreed and I would be shocked if he gets passed over again...He's the top defensive player among the finalists..If he were a DE, he'd be in already..I think the knock on him is that as an LB, he wasn't as good in run support or pass coverage as he was at sacking the QB..Kevin Greene is having the same problem.
When you look at the top 10 official list, its clear that sacks alone arent getting you to the HOF..Greene cant make the finals, Chris Doleman and Rickey Jackson cant get into the semi-finals and Leslie O'Neal wasnt even NOMINATED this year...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Does anyone know the requirements for a rookie card to be added to the HOF rc set or a key card set? If memory serves me correctly, does the card have to be #'d greater than 999, no auto, no game used?
Regards,
Greg M. >>
From PSA---
HOF and Key Card Sets:
Additions to the HOF and Key Card sets are possible. Every year new HOF inductions are made. In addition, some players may have performed well enough in recent years to warrant addition to All-Time sets. In some cases only one card will qualify for addition to the set. In some cases, several cards may qualify and members participating in the set will be polled for their opinion. The majority vote will determine which card is added. If less than 50% of the members polled respond, then experts at PSA will select the card for addition. If a rookie card is to be added, the card selected must be considered one of the most popular and no autographed, jersey or insert cards will qualify.
Greg, no decision has been made on how low the serial numbered cards need to be before being allowed. My guess is 999 as the lowest..Anything lower just doesnt make sense. We want everyone to have the opportunity to collect these sets. Luckily, most regular base issue cards are not numbered lower than 999.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Though nothing is etched in stone yet, I'd say yes on all 3.
Shag