Jasp, A fine list. What are the cutoff points for the senior candidates? Do they fall to that list after so many years of being eligible and not voted in? You have Jeff Van Note listed. He played mostly in the 1970's. Wouldn't Claude Humphrey then be included too, or did you feel he wasn't deserving at DE? Also where's Mick Tinglhoff at center? He easily should be on the list but maybe he's considered an old-timer too. He played until what, the mid 1970's.
a few Others late '60's and 1970's players : Chris Hanburger LB Jerry Kramer G .... I know he's on the older side having retired in 1968. Len Hauss center Alex Karras DT , retired in 1970 John Brodie QB
Just wondering if they all fall on the older player list too....
<< <i>Jasp, A fine list. What are the cutoff points for the senior candidates? Do they fall to that list after so many years of being eligible and not voted in? You have Jeff Van Note listed. He played mostly in the 1970's. Wouldn't Claude Humphrey then be included too, or did you feel he wasn't deserving at DE? Also where's Mick Tinglhoff at center? He easily should be on the list but maybe he's considered an old-timer too. He played until what, the mid 1970's.
a few Others late '60's and 1970's players : Chris Hanburger LB Jerry Kramer G .... I know he's on the older side having retired in 1968. Len Hauss center Alex Karras DT , retired in 1970 John Brodie QB
Just wondering if they all fall on the older player list too....
Rich >>
My list is MODERN candidates only...Players are eligible as modern candidates for 25 years after their retirement. For example, this was Roger Wehrli's last year as a modern candidate (2007) and he retired in 1982...There are TONS of senior candidates, many of which you listed there. I was just mentioning the modern guys as we KNOW 100% they will be eligible to be inducted. Senior candidates must be selected and they only pick 2 per year, honestly could be anyone...Just ask Charlie Sanders...
jradke, I didnt include active players...Did Sharper retire???
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Not to be too much of a homer, but I was happy to see Jason include Joe Theismann on his QB list, even if he feels it's a relatively weak one. Joe's number are quite comparable to Staubach's (look it up if you doubt my veracity), and their careers are a bit similar, too, in that there was a delay between their graduating and their getting effective control of an NFL team.
Glad to see Len Haus and Chris Hanburger's names, too.
Finally, I would mention Jim Lachey. He and Tony Boselli are in somewhat of the same boat: a short career hampered by injuries. There is, however, plenty of precedent for guys who fall under that rubric to still make it in.
Theismann was a league MVP with a Super Bowl ring..Very underrated...If he would have played his entire career in the NFL, he would have a much better chance...At this point, its probably 0.1%..lol
Going on the same 5 years plan, the MAX senior candidates from now until 2012 would be 10 (2 per year). Here are my top 10 Seniors:
1-Cliff Harris 2-Mick Tinglehoff 3-Claude Humphrey 4-Jerry Kramer 5-Tommy Nobis 6-Chris Hanburger 7-Chuck Howley 8-Jack Butler 9-Johnny Robinson 10-Lee Roy Jordan
So many great LBs I've got to think they are cancelling each other out..If Gradishar doesn't get in next year, you can add him to the great Senior Candidate LBs..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Awesome Modern candidate breakdown Jasp! Keep em coming!
All the wideouts jump out at me a bit, especially with Irvin going in this year - but then again, all the ones you named are deserving. Based on your ratings, you have Art Monk 3rd highest ranked WR. I personally think Tim Brown and Andre Reed with their pro bowls and general dominance are more deserving than Monk, but I'm just splitting hairs.
Jason - Very nice and interesting breakdown. Great to see that three cornerbacks are virtual locks given that the last person to play the position that is in the Hall is Mike Haynes. Given the lack of depth that you have pointed out, especially at quarterback, I can see the minimum 3 candidates going in for a few years.
Of all of the players you listed I would figure the top 10 would be: Jerome Bettis Tim Brown Chris Carter Darrell Green Jerry Rice Willie Roaf Deion Sanders Bruce Smith Emmitt Smith Rod Woodson
<< <i>Jason - Very nice and interesting breakdown. Great to see that three cornerbacks are virtual locks given that the last person to play the position that is in the Hall is Mike Haynes. Given the lack of depth that you have pointed out, especially at quarterback, I can see the minimum 3 candidates going in for a few years.
Of all of the players you listed I would figure the top 10 would be: Jerome Bettis Tim Brown Chris Carter Darrell Green Jerry Rice Willie Roaf Deion Sanders Bruce Smith Emmitt Smith Rod Woodson >>
Concur with your top 10 with one exception...Shannon Sharpe would go in over Tim Brown IMO...Brown has 9 Pro Bowls and a ton of catches, but ZERO first team All-Pro selections and no rings...I think that's going to stop him from being a first ballot lock. Shapre was one of the most dominant TEs of all time...Personally not a big fan of the guy, but can't take away what a difference maker he was on the field for 2 different Championship teams (Broncos and Ravens) . The other 9 you listed plus Sharpe are really the only LOCKS/first ballot guys coming up in the next 5 years...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As some of you already know, my best friend Glenn (who also collects the NFL HOF RC set and is right below me in the rankings) is currently in Iraq. He has occasional internet capabilities to check the Registry and see which cards I have been getting for myself and for him while he is gone. I talked to him yesterday and he was very disappointed that I had to close my sets. And even more disappointed that he couldn't see what new cards I've been adding.
Based on that conversation, there is NO AMOUNT OF MONEY that anyone can run me up on an auction worth taking away his 3 minutes of excitement of getting to see what new cards I've added. Therefore, my sets are once again open to the public..Just as they have been since I loaded my first card on the Registry. I have been and will continue to scan all my cards as well...The entire purpose of me ever joining the Registry was to be able to view my sets no matter where I am in the world. Keeping them open for Glenn is the least I can do. If it costs me a few extra dollars so be it.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Very cool Jason......I didn't realize you were friends with Glenn....
Did you both start collecting together or did you drag him into it???
Dave >>
We actually started at the same time while stationed together in Hawaii...Went something like this...I found ebay and looked up the values of some of the old football cards I had as a kid...Told Glenn about it who then discovered graded cards (PSA)...He actually bought the first graded card between us, which was a PSA 8 1973 Franco Harris RC..(He's from Pittsburgh)...That gave me the idea of collecting all the NFL HOF RCs, so I put together a list similar to what the Registry is right now...That was back in 1999...
We've been friends ever since, even though we haven't been stationed in the same place since we both left Hawaii in 2001. When one of us isn't out of the country we talk a few times per week(usually about cards or our fantasy sports leagues we play in togehter..lol), and have linked up for a few football and baseball games throughout the years...
If one of us ever quit collecting the set for some reason, I would venture to guess the other guy would quit as well..90% of the fun is the competition between us..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Found a list of Hall of Fame nominees from back in 1967..After subtracting players who have already been elected along with those who don't even have a rookie card, below is what I am left with...What struck me was that Benny Freidman and Fritz Pollard were both on this list..And to me, those Senior guys came out of NO WHERE a couple of years ago...So don't be surprised to see one or more of these guys as a Senior candidate somewhere down the line...All these guys were retired by 1961 at the latest...
Frankie Albert - QB, San Franciso 1946-52------------------------------------------50 Bowman #36 Gene Brito - DE, Washington 1951-53, 1955-58, LA Rams 1959-60 ----------55 Bowman #45 Jack Butler - DB, Pittsburgh 1951-59-------------------------------------------------57 Topps #15 Charley Conerly - QB, NYG 1948-1961-----------------------------------------------48 Leaf #53 Beattie Feathers - HB, Chi. Bears 1934-37, Brooklyn 1938-39------------------35 National Chicle #23 Marshall Goldberg - HB, Vjhi. Cards 1939-43, 1946-48—------------------------48 Bowman #81 Pat Harder - FB, Chi. Cards 1946-50, Detroit 1951-53---------------------------48 Leaf #33 Warren Lahr - DB, Cleveland Browns 1949-59-------------------------------------54 Bowman #74 Glenn Presnell - HB, Portsmouth 1931-33, Detroit 1934-35---------------------35 National Chicle #5 Byron "Whizzer" White - HB, Pittsburgh 1938, Detroit 1940-41----------------55 Topps All-American #21 Al Wistert - T, Phil-Pitt 1943, Philadelphia 1944-51-------------------------------48 Leaf #28
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Found a list of Hall of Fame nominees from back in 1967..After subtracting players who have already been elected along with those who don't even have a rookie card, below is what I am left with...What struck me was that Benny Freidman and Fritz Pollard were both on this list..And to me, those Senior guys came out of NO WHERE a couple of years ago...So don't be surprised to see one or more of these guys as a Senior candidate somewhere down the line...All these guys were retired by 1961 at the latest...
Frankie Albert - QB, San Franciso 1946-52------------------------------------------50 Bowman #36 Gene Brito - DE, Washington 1951-53, 1955-58, LA Rams 1959-60 ----------55 Bowman #45 Jack Butler - DB, Pittsburgh 1951-59-------------------------------------------------57 Topps #15 Charley Conerly - QB, NYG 1948-1961-----------------------------------------------48 Leaf #53 Beattie Feathers - HB, Chi. Bears 1934-37, Brooklyn 1938-39------------------55 All-American #98 Marshall Goldberg - HB, Vjhi. Cards 1939-43, 1946-48—------------------------48 Bowman #81 Pat Harder - FB, Chi. Cards 1946-50, Detroit 1951-53---------------------------48 Leaf #33 Warren Lahr - DB, Cleveland Browns 1949-59-------------------------------------54 Bowman #74 Glenn Presnell - HB, Portsmouth 1931-33, Detroit 1934-35---------------------35 National Chicle #5 Byron "Whizzer" White - HB, Pittsburgh 1938, Detroit 1940-41----------------54 Bowman #125 Al Wistert - T, Phil-Pitt 1943, Philadelphia 1944-51-------------------------------48 Leaf #28
Jason >>
Thanks for this list Jason. It's going to be hard for these guys to ever make it - as the oldest player in last year's list of senior finalists was Billy Wilson who was a rookie in 54 I believe. The guys who played in the 20's, 30's and 40's will have a very tough time making in. Personally, I'm surprised that Conerly and Beattie Feathers never made it. Feathers was a definate star in his day and Conerly played on several championship teams w/ the Giants in the 50's. I have autographed cards of both of them as I believe they will eventually make it.
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Another player who might make it one day is Duke Slater. He was supposedly the best tackle of his time - back in the 20's and early 30's I believe. The only problem - he was black....
Regards,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Another player who might make it one day is Duke Slater. He was supposedly the best tackle of his time - back in the 20's and early 30's I believe. The only problem - he was black....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg,
Slater was on the list..But doesn't have a rookie card that I know of...I took all those guys off, but could post them if you want to see them...I guess you would need them for your HOF Auto set. Maybe you could post them on that "Official" thread...
Also, when Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard were selected a couple of years ago, neither guy had been even mentioned in HOF talk for at least 10 years prior..All it took was someone doing some research on them and made a push to the Senior Committee. I think it's a very slim chance for any of the guys on that list, but that didn't stop Freidman and Pollard...Just putting it out there so we aren't TOTALLY blown away/surprised when one of these guys is a Senior candidate one of these years...
Conerly and Jack Butler would be the top candidates from this list in my opinion, but I also know very little and have seen little if any game footage of the players from the 20s and 30s...I've read things about them, but its hard to place them on a "greatness" plateau without actually seing how good they were with my own eyes...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Doesn't Beattie Feathers has a 1935 Chilce card? >>
Yep, he sure does....Thanks for the correction Bill..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The entire purpose of me ever joining the Registry was to be able to view my sets no matter where I am in the world. Keeping them open for Glenn is the least I can do. If it costs me a few extra dollars so be it.
Jason- I know it's hard to keep the set open when you know someone is taking advantage of you (BTW, Email or PM me the name
I'm glad though that you have returned to embrace the true spirit of the Registry. The Football Force will always defeat the Darkside of Closed Sets.
The new Hall of Famers have been added to the NFL HOF RC set...
Im in the market for PSA 10's of Irvin and Matthews if anyone has one available..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, the Byron White you are referring to in your post (the Supreme Court Justice) does not have a 1954 Bowman card. Same nickname, different person.
<< <i>Jason, the Byron White you are referring to in your post (the Supreme Court Justice) does not have a 1954 Bowman card. Same nickname, different person. >>
Yeah, I thought it was strange he would have a 1954 Bowman card when he retired well before that season...I was just going by the PSA Pop report, which lists the 1954 Bowman as Whizzer White..I didnt think there were 2 guys nicknames Whizzer...lol..Anyone know the story behind that???
If and when these guys are every eligible to be added to the HOF RC set, I will be sure (as others will also) to do a complete check of which is the correct card of each player. Based on the new info, the correct RC would be the 1955 Topps All-American, which is what i thought before i saw the 1954 Bowman in the POP report.
Thansk again for pointing that one out...It has been noted.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Just a quick question. Since we decided that the Tomlinson card of choice is the 2001 Topps Chrome, does mean that all the 01 rookies will be the topps chrome? I am looking to get Tomlinson, Brees, Wayne, C. Johnson, Vick, and possibly Steve Smith.
Also, are all the one's #ed to 999 refractors? I really like the looks of the Black chrome cards #ed out of 100. If I get those, I would assume I could still register them. Kinda like my Manning rookie. Even though the SP authentic is the card of choice, I have the sp authentic Die Cut #ed out of 500. I am still able to register it and assume it would be the same way with the 01 black chrome cards.
<< <i>Just a quick question. Since we decided that the Tomlinson card of choice is the 2001 Topps Chrome, does mean that all the 01 rookies will be the topps chrome? I am looking to get Tomlinson, Brees, Wayne, C. Johnson, Vick, and possibly Steve Smith.
Also, are all the one's #ed to 999 refractors? I really like the looks of the Black chrome cards #ed out of 100. If I get those, I would assume I could still register them. Kinda like my Manning rookie. Even though the SP authentic is the card of choice, I have the sp authentic Die Cut #ed out of 500. I am still able to register it and assume it would be the same way with the 01 black chrome cards.
Dave >>
Dave, I don't know who decided that was the card...Personally, I think it's PROBABLY the card, but as far as I know, PSA hasn't made the decision on max numbering...Thats the only issue..What if they decide 1,000???Then the Topps Chrome to #999 will no longer apply to the HOF RC set...
As far as the other rookie cards go, it doesnt automatically make them all Topps Chrome..The cards from 2001-present are so screwy, its very possible there could be other cards of those players that are more popular/valuable that meet the HOF Registry requirements..I tried to research it about a year ago, but gave up after deeming it impossible to figure out...lol
I wouldnt say that too loud about the Manning Die cut...For most parallel inserts, they will not fit into the sets...Because, well they are parallel inserts..lol...1999 SP Auth Ed James parallels (excitement I think it is) dont work..The 1998 Die Cuts shouldnt either..If PSA catches it, they will fix it...I cant imagine they would allow cards numbered to only 100...
Hope this helps...Im definitely not the modern expert, just giving what info I do have... Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Yeah, I thought it was strange he would have a 1954 Bowman card when he retired well before that season...I was just going by the PSA Pop report, which lists the 1954 Bowman as Whizzer White..I didnt think there were 2 guys nicknames Whizzer...lol..Anyone know the story behind that??? >>
The 1954 Bowman card is of Wilford "Whizzer" White, who attended Arizona State. Wilford is the father of Danny White, the Cowboys' long-time quarterback. Both Whizzers led the country in rushing, Byron in 1937 and Wilford in 1950.
The 1954 Bowman card is of Wilford "Whizzer" White, who attended Arizona State. Wilford is the father of Danny White, the Cowboys' long-time quarterback. Both Whizzers led the country in rushing, Byron in 1937 and Wilford in 1950. >>
Thanks Mike...I never knew there were 2 guys sharing such a strange nickname...Very interesting..He looks alot like Danny White as well...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Dave, I don't know who decided that was the card...Personally, I think it's PROBABLY the card, but as far as I know, PSA hasn't made the decision on max numbering...Thats the only issue..What if they decide 1,000???Then the Topps Chrome to #999 will no longer apply to the HOF RC set...
As far as the other rookie cards go, it doesnt automatically make them all Topps Chrome..The cards from 2001-present are so screwy, its very possible there could be other cards of those players that are more popular/valuable that meet the HOF Registry requirements..I tried to research it about a year ago, but gave up after deeming it impossible to figure out...lol
I wouldnt say that too loud about the Manning Die cut...For most parallel inserts, they will not fit into the sets...Because, well they are parallel inserts..lol...1999 SP Auth Ed James parallels (excitement I think it is) dont work..The 1998 Die Cuts shouldnt either..If PSA catches it, they will fix it...I cant imagine they would allow cards numbered to only 100...
Hope this helps...Im definitely not the modern expert, just giving what info I do have... Jason >>
The registry is allowing the 98 SP Authentic die-cuts. When I was doing my mis-guided Randy Moss basic set I had a PSA 9 die cut. When I put it in, it asked if I wanted to add it to my All Time Vikings set, which I did. I've since upgraded to a regular one in PSA 10 but I do know first-hand that the die cuts are (or at least were) being allowed. The die cuts from 98 are #/500. The SP Excitement cards from 99 are #/250.
No doubt they are working, I guess the question I really don't want to ask PSA is...SHOULD they be working???
Its a different card, different numbering, different pop...I would venture to say its probably a PSA technical error..But I don't want to screw anyone over by asking PSA if they are allowed...Because it would take about 30 seconds for them to boot the die-cuts...Eventually, if it is an error, PSA is going to figure it out. So for anyone looking to buy cards for these sets that actually don't belong or fit..Buyer beware...
IMO, they shouldnt be allowed..Based on PSA's own guidelines of no parallels or inserts...If they are going to allow the diecuts, they might as well allow all parallels...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If the first X number of a card are die-cut (as they were with 2000 Donruss Elite FB rookies), I don't think it should be considered a parallel.
Of course, since they normally sell at a premium to non-die-cut versions, I don't know how to treat it for valuing the card in SMR/OPG (or considering what is the most valuable qualifying rookie).
As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule.
Jim Tyrer was a HOF finalist in 1981. I don't think that he'll ever be elected to the HOF because of what happened to him. The same with Gene Lipscomb - he would likely be in the HOF if he didn't overdose and die in a hotel room with 2 women (which is the way I want to go - with 2 women
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Wow, Tyrer went to 9 Pro Bowls. I had never heard of him before this thread, but sounds like he was a pretty dominant OL. Makes me wonder... Let's say O.J. committed his double murder sometime between his retirement and HOF eligibility. I wonder if he would have made it in. I know the committe is supposed to consider only on-field accomplishments, but I think we all know that doesn't always happen (see Michael Irvin's delayed enshrinement). I doubt the NFL would want to celebrate a player who gained worldwide notoriety for committing such a heinous act. My guess is that at the very least he would not have been a first-ballot selection, which I assume he was.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule. >>
The other thing that hurts Tyrer is that 7 of his 9 Pro Bowls were in the AFL...And unfortunately, the old AFL players still get viewed as less than their NFL counterparts. If you look at the All-Time AFL team (which Tyrer was a part of) only 11 of the 24 players are in the Pro Football HOF...Ed Budde was another excellent O-lineman who played along side Tyrer in KC..7 Pro Bowls of his own...
Here's a list of retired players with the most Pro Bowls who are eligible, but NOT yet in the HOF..Some of these may surprise you:
The top skill position guys: QB-Jack Kemp-7 WR-Andre Reed-7 RB-Don Perkins-6
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Here's another, and to me, more valuable list of guys who were chosen as First Team All-Pro (either All-NFL or All-AFL) the most times, yet still havent been elected.
As you can see, the AFL was a 10 year league they've got 7 guys on this list with 5 or more All-AFL selections, while the NFL is a 88 year old league and has 9 on the list...The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason, I do notice a lot of my beloved Chiefs on both of those lists. And speaking of those Chiefs, congrats on your Stenerud yesterday, I wanted that card but you HOF Rookie cards put these prices a bit out of whack compared to the scale I am use to using. Amazing that I have any of those cards at all. Fuzz
Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
Thanks guys and thanks as always Jason for yet another very interesting list. As an Oiler / Titan fan I would love to see Robert Brazile make it one day but I doubt there is any chance in that at all.
<< <i>Thanks guys and thanks as always Jason for yet another very interesting list. As an Oiler / Titan fan I would love to see Robert Brazile make it one day but I doubt there is any chance in that at all. >>
I wouldn't mind seeing "Dr. Doom" go in either...IMO he was more dominant than his HOF teammate Elvin Bethea..But LB is just one of the toughest positions to earn HOF honors...Such a long list of GREAT LB's out there that aren't getting the HOF recognition...
I think in his era (Mid 70's-Early 80's), he's only behind Gradishar, and thats mainly because Gradishar was one of the leaders of that great Orange Crush defense that has yet to place anyone in the HOF...The upcoming class will be Gradishar's last year as a modern candidate though...Brazile's last will be the next year, 2009..If he's ever going to go in, that will be his shot..Once he makes the Senior list, hes behind a bunch of great LBs...
Here's another list (I know, I know I have too many of them..lol) of upcoming "Last Chance" guys in the modern era...Much like Roger Wehrli was this year...
2008--Randy Gradishar, Bob Kuechenberg, Drew Pearson 2009--Robert Brazile, Ken Stabler 2010--Matt Blair, Cliff Branch, Fred Dean 2011--Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Ken Anderson 2012--Kenny Easley, Donnie Shell
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL. >>
Just out of curiosity, when do you think that changed? At what point did the AFL start to reach critical mass and become something more than a barn league? For me, I think it was around '63 or '64. Having the Chiefs and Chargers emerge from the pack with the future Hall of Fame talent on their rosters set the stage for having the league be more attractive to incoming players.
<< <i>The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL. >>
Just out of curiosity, when do you think that changed? At what point did the AFL start to reach critical mass and become something more than a barn league? For me, I think it was around '63 or '64. Having the Chiefs and Chargers emerge from the pack with the future Hall of Fame talent on their rosters set the stage for having the league be more attractive to incoming players.
Three guys I always champion in these discussions. >>
I think the AFL gained credibility every year along the way, but in 1965 when the AFL got their TV contract they became a major player...The explosive offensive game the AFL was known for gave people a reason to watch and take notice...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
By Leonard Shapiro Special to washingtonpost.com Thursday, February 15, 2007; 11:18 AM
Art Monk deserved better.
And so did Paul Tagliabue.
Art Monk ended his career as the NFL's all-time leader in receptions, a record he broke in 1992. (Wilfredo Lee - AP)
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It's been almost two weeks since the all-time leading receiver in Washington Redskins history and arguably the greatest sports commissioner of his generation were not voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame at the annual selection meeting in Miami Beach the day before Super Bowl XLI.
And I still don't get it. After 24 years on the selection committee, I honestly believed 2007 was going to be Monk's year, if only because he had waited so long and the number of can't-miss first time eligible players seemed rather thin.
In the interest of full disclosure, I've been responsible for presenting Monk to the board of selectors until this year, when my status -- after retiring from The Post in October after 37 years -- was changed on the board to an at-large representative. David Elfin of The Washington Times was added to the board as the Washington representative and he made an excellent case on Monk's behalf. And of course I followed up with more supporting evidence to advance his candidacy.
Monk had been among the final 15 every year since he became eligible seven years ago, and at least this year he made it through the first cut from 17 (counting two senior candidates) to the final ten (actually 11, because there was a tie).
Then, one more time, the unthinkable occurred. Monk couldn't make it to the last six on a day when Dallas Cowboys receiver Michael Irvin, in only his third year of eligibility, was among the exalted half-dozen. At that point in the process, the 40 selectors are asked to vote yes or no, and any candidate with 81 per cent of the yes votes gets his ticket punched to Canton.
I've always voted yes for any man who gets to the final six, unless I happen to know for a fact that he was an ax-murderer, or worse. And yes, once Irvin got that far, he did get my yes vote, even if I also believe it was a travesty of the highest order that he now will go into the Hall ahead of Monk, for a wide variety of reasons.
I've seen too many worthy players make it to the last six, and then get blackballed by what we like to call "silent assassins" in the final yes-no tally. It happened a few years back to Miami offensive lineman Bob Kuechenberg, and the poor guy has never gotten that far again, and may not considering the number of offensive lineman--five finalists this year, and more coming--who likely will shove him to the back of the line, including Russ Grimm.
It happened twice to Giants linebacker Harry Carson, who was so frustrated by the seemingly cruel and unusual process that he took the very unusual step of asking not to be considered for induction by the selectors.
Fortunately, we ignored him and eventually voted a very worthy Carson in to the Class of 2006.
But back to Irvin over Monk. Yes, the Dallas "Playmaker" had more touchdown catches than Monk and some very big postseason games, including three Super Bowl victories. Good for him. He's a Hall of Fame player, but I honestly thought my fellow selectors would take a "wait-your-turn" approach, and put Monk in this year and Irvin next.
Monk's numbers across the board were more than comparable, including a stunning statistic that two-thirds of Monk's 888 catches in Washington went for first downs, an incredibly high rate of success for a classic possession receiver. Oh, and by the way, when he retired, wasn't he also the all-time leading receiver in NFL history?
But far more important in my mind was the character issue. Unlike baseball, that's not supposed to be part of the equation in the pro football by-laws. But perhaps it should be. Irvin was a loud-mouth, look-at-me, point-that-camera-in-my-direction precursor to many of the preening prima donna wide receivers now prancing across our screens every Sunday.
More significantly, he also was guilty of some despicable behavior off the field, as well, getting involved in a series of highly publicized incidents involving cocaine, hookers, marital infidelity and general flaunting of the law.
Of course, none of those transgressions prevented him from landing a plum job as an analyst on ESPN, where he's also said some pretty dumb things. And in the weeks before the Hall of Fame meeting, both he and several of his colleagues unabashedly lobbied for his selection. Shame on him, and them, but that's show biz.
Monk was the anti-Irvin, on and off the field. He went about his business as a true professional, a player who never once went to Joe Gibbs and asked his coach to get him the ball more often. He was a consummate athlete who took great pride in his downfield blocking, a quiet, soft-spoken presence in the locker room who preferred not to speak much to the media if only because he felt uncomfortable in the spotlight. No arrests, no perp walks, no drug busts, not even a whiff of scandal or wrong-doing at any time during or after his brilliant career.
His only semi-flaw? Perhaps some writers on the 40-man committee may still remember Monk's reluctance to wave his own flag back when he was playing, more than occasionally rejecting interview requests from his own local beat writers as well as out-of-towners when he was very much in his prime and a key part of the Redskins story. You'd like to think that wouldn't matter much in the selection process, but quite frankly, human nature occasionally takes over, and perhaps that's cost him a few votes.
The good news is that at least he's getting closer. The glut of receivers who have been in Monk's path in recent years -- Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, James Lofton and now Irvin -- have all been elected to the Hall. Next year, first-time eligible Chris Carter of the Vikings will be the main competition, but it would be another travesty if Carter made it on the first ballot, or any ballot before Monk finally gets his due.
You'd like to think that Monk's three Super Bowl rings, compared to none for Carter, who never played in that game, will be a telling factor in finally getting Monk to Canton. I'm still convinced that it's going to happen for Monk, and sooner rather than later.
Sadly, Tagliabue may have to wait a while longer. This year, he didn't even advance from the final 17 to the last 10 in his first year on the final ballot, eliminated in the first round of voting.
As selectors, we often ask the question, "can you write the history of the National Football League without him?" Of course you can't write any history of the NFL without having Tagliabue in the first paragraph. Over his 18-year tenure since taking over from Pete Rozelle, an already prosperous league moved into another galaxy in terms of its growth and worldwide popularity.
At the moment, television contracts Tagliabue negotiated are estimated to be worth $25.2 billion. League attendance is nearly at 100 percent. Super Bowl XLI attracted the second largest audience in history, with ads selling for a record $2.6 million for a 30-second spot. And the vast majority of games remain televised, free of charge to the public.
The league never had a work stoppage on Tagliabue's watch. The NFL has the toughest drug testing program in all of sports, and continues to fund and monitor research to keep up with the latest science of cheating.
Tagliabue presided over the wildly successful expansion to 32 teams, oversaw the building or total renovation of more than 20 league stadiums and played a huge role in increasing the value of each franchise in the league, some now reportedly worth over $1 billion each.
With the exception of Los Angeles, every city that saw its NFL franchise leave town for a more lucrative market -- St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Houston -- eventually got another team back, and four of them are now playing in magnificent new stadiums. To his everlasting credit, Tagliabue also strong-armed the impetuously irresponsible owner of the New Orleans franchise, Tom Benson, from moving the franchise after Hurricane Katrina.
And by the way, did you notice there were seven African American head coaches on the sidelines this season, two of them taking their teams to the Super Bowl two weeks ago? When Tagliabue took over, there were none, and his prodding of the owners to adapt the so-called Rooney Rule four years ago to make certain at least one minority candidate be interviewed for every head coaching vacancy has obviously paid huge dividends, on the field and in front offices around the league.
So how could my fellow selectors not vote him in on his first appearance on the final ballot?
Without specifically revealing who said what, let's just say I didn't hear a single reason that made any sense at all. There was some talk that he wasn't pro-active enough in getting new stadiums built for San Francisco, San Diego or Oakland, that he didn't push hard enough to make a deal to bring pro football back to Los Angeles. Some said the extension in the collective bargaining agreement Tagliabue brokered before he left office has a chance of blowing up in two years because too many owners are unhappy with the agreement.
Mostly though, there was an ugly whiff of vindictiveness in the room.
Unlike Rozelle, a gregarious PR man with a perpetual tan, Tagliabue was a buttoned-down by-the-book lawyer with a backroom pallor. He was stiff standing on a podium, occasionally condescending and evasive in news conference settings.
Over his reign, media access to players and coaches on many teams -- including closed practices, no interviews allowed with assistant coaches, not enough time in locker rooms after practice -- also was reduced considerably. Tagliabue, some have said, could have stopped it, but never really tried very hard to intervene.
Still, if that's the reason any selector -- 40 media men and women from around the country -- voted no, shame on them. This was not about us, and never should be. It was about the big picture and outside-the-box thinking from a visionary CEO who took his league to unparalleled heights, and kept it there year after year as by far the most popular team sport in the country.
Art Monk and Paul Tagliabue both deserved far better, and in 2008, the misguided naysayers in the room need to look in the mirror, come to their senses and do the right thing. They didn't embarrass Monk and Tagliabue on Feb. 3; they embarrassed themselves.
Leonard Shapiro can be reached at Badgerlen@hotmail.com or Badgerlen@aol.com.
As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule. >>
The other thing that hurts Tyrer is that 7 of his 9 Pro Bowls were in the AFL...And unfortunately, the old AFL players still get viewed as less than their NFL counterparts. If you look at the All-Time AFL team (which Tyrer was a part of) only 11 of the 24 players are in the Pro Football HOF...Ed Budde was another excellent O-lineman who played along side Tyrer in KC..7 Pro Bowls of his own...
Here's a list of retired players with the most Pro Bowls who are eligible, but NOT yet in the HOF..Some of these may surprise you:
I realize there's a overlap of players on these lists, but Jason nearly every one of these players deserve some serious consideration for the Hall imo. It's only a matter of time before many eventually get their just due.
And you can add these to the list:
Billy Wilson ... 1950's 49ers star end Jerry Smith ....1960's-70's Redskins end Max McGee .....1950-60's Packers end and drinker John Brodie ....1956-73 49ers QB and pro golfer Fuzzy Thurston... 1960's Packers guard Alex Karras..... 1958-70 Lions Def. Tackle, actor and gambler Lionel Taylor ...1960's Broncos superb receiving end Mac Speedie ... 1946-52 Browns end Jake Scott .... 1970's Dolphins safety
I can think of many others. Anyone want to add to the list?
I honestly thought Brodie was already in until a month or two ago. It's rare that I make a mistake like that.
You know how I feel about Jerry Smith. Him, Hanburger and Len Hauss are the 70's Skins that are most worthy. I feel that way about Pat Fischer, too, but I think that's probably something of a non-starter. (Anybody who doubts his greatness should have a little talk with Mr. Ronnie Lott, who is a big fan of his.)
I'm not getting involved in this fight too deeply again, but...I hope Shapiro showed that level of enthusiasm in his presentation for Art. That first down stat is a real eye opener.
<< <i>I honestly thought Brodie was already in until a month or two ago. It's rare that I make a mistake like that.
You know how I feel about Jerry Smith. Him, Hanburger and Len Hauss are the 70's Skins that are most worthy. I feel that way about Pat Fischer, too, but I think that's probably something of a non-starter. (Anybody who doubts his greatness should have a little talk with Mr. Ronnie Lott, who is a big fan of his.)
I'm not getting involved in this fight too deeply again, but...I hope Shapiro showed that level of enthusiasm in his presentation for Art. That first down stat is a real eye opener. >>
I'm a big fan of Pat Fischer too. I remember watching all those match up's during the 1970's with the Eagles 6'8" Carmichael and the 5'9" Fischer doing battle. There weren't many double teams or cover 2's in those days. You either had to be able to cover one on one or you were sitting on the pine. Fischer had a long, steady career and was a hard hitter for his size too. Len Hauss was an under rated center too. Was always rated among the leagues top 4 or 5 best centers while he was active. He anchored some great teams in the 1970's. He just gets lost in the mix for some reason.
Dave, that's a fine raw pick up by you. Bidders are paying strong money for 8's thinking Hanburger gets in the Hall soon. Shoppinglucy is never afraid of pulling a large trigger. Great buyer.
Holy Cow!!!!!!!!! You would think Hanberger is already a HOF'er...!!!! Anyone here the underbidder or winner?? I dont recognize the winner
The winning bidder is an aggressive set registry buyer. The under bidder was me. I thought I was being extra ggressive and figured I would win that card for at most $250. Obviously the extra $80 cushion wasn't enough. Oh well, my 7 will have to do for now.
Fabfrank, I didn't know you were the under bidder. You're no slouch either when it comes to buying vintage football. I wonder if Art was in the mix too? You gotta support those Redskins. I didn't know shoppinglucy was on the registry. Under a different name or the same?
Comments
A fine list. What are the cutoff points for the senior candidates? Do they fall to that list after so many years of being eligible and not voted in?
You have Jeff Van Note listed. He played mostly in the 1970's.
Wouldn't Claude Humphrey then be included too, or did you feel
he wasn't deserving at DE? Also where's Mick Tinglhoff at center? He easily should be on the list but maybe he's considered an old-timer too. He played until what, the mid 1970's.
a few Others late '60's and 1970's players :
Chris Hanburger LB
Jerry Kramer G .... I know he's on the older side having retired in 1968.
Len Hauss center
Alex Karras DT , retired in 1970
John Brodie QB
Just wondering if they all fall on the older player list too....
Rich
<< <i>Jasp,
A fine list. What are the cutoff points for the senior candidates? Do they fall to that list after so many years of being eligible and not voted in?
You have Jeff Van Note listed. He played mostly in the 1970's.
Wouldn't Claude Humphrey then be included too, or did you feel
he wasn't deserving at DE? Also where's Mick Tinglhoff at center? He easily should be on the list but maybe he's considered an old-timer too. He played until what, the mid 1970's.
a few Others late '60's and 1970's players :
Chris Hanburger LB
Jerry Kramer G .... I know he's on the older side having retired in 1968.
Len Hauss center
Alex Karras DT , retired in 1970
John Brodie QB
Just wondering if they all fall on the older player list too....
Rich >>
My list is MODERN candidates only...Players are eligible as modern candidates for 25 years after their retirement. For example, this was Roger Wehrli's last year as a modern candidate (2007) and he retired in 1982...There are TONS of senior candidates, many of which you listed there. I was just mentioning the modern guys as we KNOW 100% they will be eligible to be inducted. Senior candidates must be selected and they only pick 2 per year, honestly could be anyone...Just ask Charlie Sanders...
jradke, I didnt include active players...Did Sharper retire???
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
Not to be too much of a homer, but I was happy to see Jason include Joe Theismann on his QB list, even if he feels it's a relatively weak one. Joe's number are quite comparable to Staubach's (look it up if you doubt my veracity), and their careers are a bit similar, too, in that there was a delay between their graduating and their getting effective control of an NFL team.
Glad to see Len Haus and Chris Hanburger's names, too.
Finally, I would mention Jim Lachey. He and Tony Boselli are in somewhat of the same boat: a short career hampered by injuries. There is, however, plenty of precedent for guys who fall under that rubric to still make it in.
Pretty good lists from everyone.
Going on the same 5 years plan, the MAX senior candidates from now until 2012 would be 10 (2 per year). Here are my top 10 Seniors:
1-Cliff Harris
2-Mick Tinglehoff
3-Claude Humphrey
4-Jerry Kramer
5-Tommy Nobis
6-Chris Hanburger
7-Chuck Howley
8-Jack Butler
9-Johnny Robinson
10-Lee Roy Jordan
So many great LBs I've got to think they are cancelling each other out..If Gradishar doesn't get in next year, you can add him to the great Senior Candidate LBs..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All the wideouts jump out at me a bit, especially with Irvin going in this year - but then again, all the ones you named are deserving. Based on your ratings, you have Art Monk 3rd highest ranked WR. I personally think Tim Brown and Andre Reed with their pro bowls and general dominance are more deserving than Monk, but I'm just splitting hairs.
Great list!
Of all of the players you listed I would figure the top 10 would be:
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Chris Carter
Darrell Green
Jerry Rice
Willie Roaf
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Emmitt Smith
Rod Woodson
<< <i>Jason - Very nice and interesting breakdown. Great to see that three cornerbacks are virtual locks given that the last person to play the position that is in the Hall is Mike Haynes. Given the lack of depth that you have pointed out, especially at quarterback, I can see the minimum 3 candidates going in for a few years.
Of all of the players you listed I would figure the top 10 would be:
Jerome Bettis
Tim Brown
Chris Carter
Darrell Green
Jerry Rice
Willie Roaf
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Emmitt Smith
Rod Woodson >>
Concur with your top 10 with one exception...Shannon Sharpe would go in over Tim Brown IMO...Brown has 9 Pro Bowls and a ton of catches, but ZERO first team All-Pro selections and no rings...I think that's going to stop him from being a first ballot lock. Shapre was one of the most dominant TEs of all time...Personally not a big fan of the guy, but can't take away what a difference maker he was on the field for 2 different Championship teams (Broncos and Ravens) . The other 9 you listed plus Sharpe are really the only LOCKS/first ballot guys coming up in the next 5 years...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As some of you already know, my best friend Glenn (who also collects the NFL HOF RC set and is right below me in the rankings) is currently in Iraq. He has occasional internet capabilities to check the Registry and see which cards I have been getting for myself and for him while he is gone. I talked to him yesterday and he was very disappointed that I had to close my sets. And even more disappointed that he couldn't see what new cards I've been adding.
Based on that conversation, there is NO AMOUNT OF MONEY that anyone can run me up on an auction worth taking away his 3 minutes of excitement of getting to see what new cards I've added. Therefore, my sets are once again open to the public..Just as they have been since I loaded my first card on the Registry. I have been and will continue to scan all my cards as well...The entire purpose of me ever joining the Registry was to be able to view my sets no matter where I am in the world. Keeping them open for Glenn is the least I can do. If it costs me a few extra dollars so be it.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Did you both start collecting together or did you drag him into it???
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Very cool Jason......I didn't realize you were friends with Glenn....
Did you both start collecting together or did you drag him into it???
Dave >>
We actually started at the same time while stationed together in Hawaii...Went something like this...I found ebay and looked up the values of some of the old football cards I had as a kid...Told Glenn about it who then discovered graded cards (PSA)...He actually bought the first graded card between us, which was a PSA 8 1973 Franco Harris RC..(He's from Pittsburgh)...That gave me the idea of collecting all the NFL HOF RCs, so I put together a list similar to what the Registry is right now...That was back in 1999...
We've been friends ever since, even though we haven't been stationed in the same place since we both left Hawaii in 2001. When one of us isn't out of the country we talk a few times per week(usually about cards or our fantasy sports leagues we play in togehter..lol), and have linked up for a few football and baseball games throughout the years...
If one of us ever quit collecting the set for some reason, I would venture to guess the other guy would quit as well..90% of the fun is the competition between us..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
BTW.. I just noticed MOSH is on top again. Looks like fight4oldDC has deleted some cards (not at 100% anymore). Do you know what's upwith that??
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Found a list of Hall of Fame nominees from back in 1967..After subtracting players who have already been elected along with those who don't even have a rookie card, below is what I am left with...What struck me was that Benny Freidman and Fritz Pollard were both on this list..And to me, those Senior guys came out of NO WHERE a couple of years ago...So don't be surprised to see one or more of these guys as a Senior candidate somewhere down the line...All these guys were retired by 1961 at the latest...
Frankie Albert - QB, San Franciso 1946-52------------------------------------------50 Bowman #36
Gene Brito - DE, Washington 1951-53, 1955-58, LA Rams 1959-60 ----------55 Bowman #45
Jack Butler - DB, Pittsburgh 1951-59-------------------------------------------------57 Topps #15
Charley Conerly - QB, NYG 1948-1961-----------------------------------------------48 Leaf #53
Beattie Feathers - HB, Chi. Bears 1934-37, Brooklyn 1938-39------------------35 National Chicle #23
Marshall Goldberg - HB, Vjhi. Cards 1939-43, 1946-48—------------------------48 Bowman #81
Pat Harder - FB, Chi. Cards 1946-50, Detroit 1951-53---------------------------48 Leaf #33
Warren Lahr - DB, Cleveland Browns 1949-59-------------------------------------54 Bowman #74
Glenn Presnell - HB, Portsmouth 1931-33, Detroit 1934-35---------------------35 National Chicle #5
Byron "Whizzer" White - HB, Pittsburgh 1938, Detroit 1940-41----------------55 Topps All-American #21
Al Wistert - T, Phil-Pitt 1943, Philadelphia 1944-51-------------------------------48 Leaf #28
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Some other interesting info....
Found a list of Hall of Fame nominees from back in 1967..After subtracting players who have already been elected along with those who don't even have a rookie card, below is what I am left with...What struck me was that Benny Freidman and Fritz Pollard were both on this list..And to me, those Senior guys came out of NO WHERE a couple of years ago...So don't be surprised to see one or more of these guys as a Senior candidate somewhere down the line...All these guys were retired by 1961 at the latest...
Frankie Albert - QB, San Franciso 1946-52------------------------------------------50 Bowman #36
Gene Brito - DE, Washington 1951-53, 1955-58, LA Rams 1959-60 ----------55 Bowman #45
Jack Butler - DB, Pittsburgh 1951-59-------------------------------------------------57 Topps #15
Charley Conerly - QB, NYG 1948-1961-----------------------------------------------48 Leaf #53
Beattie Feathers - HB, Chi. Bears 1934-37, Brooklyn 1938-39------------------55 All-American #98
Marshall Goldberg - HB, Vjhi. Cards 1939-43, 1946-48—------------------------48 Bowman #81
Pat Harder - FB, Chi. Cards 1946-50, Detroit 1951-53---------------------------48 Leaf #33
Warren Lahr - DB, Cleveland Browns 1949-59-------------------------------------54 Bowman #74
Glenn Presnell - HB, Portsmouth 1931-33, Detroit 1934-35---------------------35 National Chicle #5
Byron "Whizzer" White - HB, Pittsburgh 1938, Detroit 1940-41----------------54 Bowman #125
Al Wistert - T, Phil-Pitt 1943, Philadelphia 1944-51-------------------------------48 Leaf #28
Jason >>
Thanks for this list Jason. It's going to be hard for these guys to ever make it - as the oldest player in last year's list of senior finalists was Billy Wilson who was a rookie in 54 I believe. The guys who played in the 20's, 30's and 40's will have a very tough time making in. Personally, I'm surprised that Conerly and Beattie Feathers never made it. Feathers was a definate star in his day and Conerly played on several championship teams w/ the Giants in the 50's. I have autographed cards of both of them as I believe they will eventually make it.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Another player who might make it one day is Duke Slater. He was supposedly the best tackle of his time - back in the 20's and early 30's I believe. The only problem - he was black....
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg,
Slater was on the list..But doesn't have a rookie card that I know of...I took all those guys off, but could post them if you want to see them...I guess you would need them for your HOF Auto set. Maybe you could post them on that "Official" thread...
Also, when Benny Friedman and Fritz Pollard were selected a couple of years ago, neither guy had been even mentioned in HOF talk for at least 10 years prior..All it took was someone doing some research on them and made a push to the Senior Committee. I think it's a very slim chance for any of the guys on that list, but that didn't stop Freidman and Pollard...Just putting it out there so we aren't TOTALLY blown away/surprised when one of these guys is a Senior candidate one of these years...
Conerly and Jack Butler would be the top candidates from this list in my opinion, but I also know very little and have seen little if any game footage of the players from the 20s and 30s...I've read things about them, but its hard to place them on a "greatness" plateau without actually seing how good they were with my own eyes...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Doesn't Beattie Feathers has a 1935 Chilce card? >>
Yep, he sure does....Thanks for the correction Bill..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason- I know it's hard to keep the set open when you know someone is taking advantage of you (BTW, Email or PM me the name
I'm glad though that you have returned to embrace the true spirit of the Registry. The Football Force will always defeat the Darkside of Closed Sets.
The new Hall of Famers have been added to the NFL HOF RC set...
Im in the market for PSA 10's of Irvin and Matthews if anyone has one available..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Jason, the Byron White you are referring to in your post (the Supreme Court Justice) does not have a 1954 Bowman card. Same nickname, different person. >>
Yeah, I thought it was strange he would have a 1954 Bowman card when he retired well before that season...I was just going by the PSA Pop report, which lists the 1954 Bowman as Whizzer White..I didnt think there were 2 guys nicknames Whizzer...lol..Anyone know the story behind that???
If and when these guys are every eligible to be added to the HOF RC set, I will be sure (as others will also) to do a complete check of which is the correct card of each player. Based on the new info, the correct RC would be the 1955 Topps All-American, which is what i thought before i saw the 1954 Bowman in the POP report.
Thansk again for pointing that one out...It has been noted.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Also, are all the one's #ed to 999 refractors?
I really like the looks of the Black chrome cards #ed out of 100. If I get those, I would assume I could still register them. Kinda like my Manning rookie. Even though the SP authentic is the card of choice, I have the sp authentic Die Cut #ed out of 500. I am still able to register it and assume it would be the same way with the 01 black chrome cards.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Just a quick question. Since we decided that the Tomlinson card of choice is the 2001 Topps Chrome, does mean that all the 01 rookies will be the topps chrome? I am looking to get Tomlinson, Brees, Wayne, C. Johnson, Vick, and possibly Steve Smith.
Also, are all the one's #ed to 999 refractors?
I really like the looks of the Black chrome cards #ed out of 100. If I get those, I would assume I could still register them. Kinda like my Manning rookie. Even though the SP authentic is the card of choice, I have the sp authentic Die Cut #ed out of 500. I am still able to register it and assume it would be the same way with the 01 black chrome cards.
Dave >>
Dave, I don't know who decided that was the card...Personally, I think it's PROBABLY the card, but as far as I know, PSA hasn't made the decision on max numbering...Thats the only issue..What if they decide 1,000???Then the Topps Chrome to #999 will no longer apply to the HOF RC set...
As far as the other rookie cards go, it doesnt automatically make them all Topps Chrome..The cards from 2001-present are so screwy, its very possible there could be other cards of those players that are more popular/valuable that meet the HOF Registry requirements..I tried to research it about a year ago, but gave up after deeming it impossible to figure out...lol
I wouldnt say that too loud about the Manning Die cut...For most parallel inserts, they will not fit into the sets...Because, well they are parallel inserts..lol...1999 SP Auth Ed James parallels (excitement I think it is) dont work..The 1998 Die Cuts shouldnt either..If PSA catches it, they will fix it...I cant imagine they would allow cards numbered to only 100...
Hope this helps...Im definitely not the modern expert, just giving what info I do have...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Maybe I'll just wait to get some of these cards down the road.....
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Yeah, I thought it was strange he would have a 1954 Bowman card when he retired well before that season...I was just going by the PSA Pop report, which lists the 1954 Bowman as Whizzer White..I didnt think there were 2 guys nicknames Whizzer...lol..Anyone know the story behind that??? >>
The 1954 Bowman card is of Wilford "Whizzer" White, who attended Arizona State. Wilford is the father of Danny White, the Cowboys' long-time quarterback. Both Whizzers led the country in rushing, Byron in 1937 and Wilford in 1950.
Vintage Football Card Gallery
<< <i>
The 1954 Bowman card is of Wilford "Whizzer" White, who attended Arizona State. Wilford is the father of Danny White, the Cowboys' long-time quarterback. Both Whizzers led the country in rushing, Byron in 1937 and Wilford in 1950. >>
Thanks Mike...I never knew there were 2 guys sharing such a strange nickname...Very interesting..He looks alot like Danny White as well...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
Dave, I don't know who decided that was the card...Personally, I think it's PROBABLY the card, but as far as I know, PSA hasn't made the decision on max numbering...Thats the only issue..What if they decide 1,000???Then the Topps Chrome to #999 will no longer apply to the HOF RC set...
As far as the other rookie cards go, it doesnt automatically make them all Topps Chrome..The cards from 2001-present are so screwy, its very possible there could be other cards of those players that are more popular/valuable that meet the HOF Registry requirements..I tried to research it about a year ago, but gave up after deeming it impossible to figure out...lol
I wouldnt say that too loud about the Manning Die cut...For most parallel inserts, they will not fit into the sets...Because, well they are parallel inserts..lol...1999 SP Auth Ed James parallels (excitement I think it is) dont work..The 1998 Die Cuts shouldnt either..If PSA catches it, they will fix it...I cant imagine they would allow cards numbered to only 100...
Hope this helps...Im definitely not the modern expert, just giving what info I do have...
Jason >>
The registry is allowing the 98 SP Authentic die-cuts. When I was doing my mis-guided Randy Moss basic set I had a PSA 9 die cut. When I put it in, it asked if I wanted to add it to my All Time Vikings set, which I did. I've since upgraded to a regular one in PSA 10 but I do know first-hand that the die cuts are (or at least were) being allowed. The die cuts from 98 are #/500. The SP Excitement cards from 99 are #/250.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Its a different card, different numbering, different pop...I would venture to say its probably a PSA technical error..But I don't want to screw anyone over by asking PSA if they are allowed...Because it would take about 30 seconds for them to boot the die-cuts...Eventually, if it is an error, PSA is going to figure it out. So for anyone looking to buy cards for these sets that actually don't belong or fit..Buyer beware...
IMO, they shouldnt be allowed..Based on PSA's own guidelines of no parallels or inserts...If they are going to allow the diecuts, they might as well allow all parallels...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Of course, since they normally sell at a premium to non-die-cut versions, I don't know how to treat it for valuing the card in SMR/OPG (or considering what is the most valuable qualifying rookie).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule.
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>How do you guys feel about Jim Tyrer?
As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule. >>
The other thing that hurts Tyrer is that 7 of his 9 Pro Bowls were in the AFL...And unfortunately, the old AFL players still get viewed as less than their NFL counterparts. If you look at the All-Time AFL team (which Tyrer was a part of) only 11 of the 24 players are in the Pro Football HOF...Ed Budde was another excellent O-lineman who played along side Tyrer in KC..7 Pro Bowls of his own...
Here's a list of retired players with the most Pro Bowls who are eligible, but NOT yet in the HOF..Some of these may surprise you:
OG-Randall McDaniel-12
LB-Chris Hanburger-9
LB-Maxie Baughan-9
LB-Derrick Thomas-9
OG-Walt Sweeney-9
OT-Jim Tyrer-9
LB-Les Richter-8
CB-Lemar Parrish-8
DE-Chris Doleman-8
OT-Winston Hill-8
OT-George Kunz-8
S-Steve At-water-8
The top skill position guys:
QB-Jack Kemp-7
WR-Andre Reed-7
RB-Don Perkins-6
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
OG-Randall McDaniel-7
OC-Dermontti Dawson-6
OC-Mick Tinglehoff-6
OT-Jim Tyrer-6 (AFL)
DE-Jerry Mays-6 (AFL)
OG-Walt Sweeney-6 (AFL)
CB-Dave Grayson-5 (AFL)
DT-Houston Antwine-5 (AFL)
OT-Winston Hill-5 (AFL)
OG-Jerry Kramer-5
OG-Dick Stanfel-5
LB-Robert Brazile-5
LB-Chuck Howley-5
S-Johnny Robinson-5 (AFL)
WR-Del Shofner-5
P-Ray Guy-5
As you can see, the AFL was a 10 year league they've got 7 guys on this list with 5 or more All-AFL selections, while the NFL is a 88 year old league and has 9 on the list...The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I do notice a lot of my beloved Chiefs on both of those lists. And speaking of those Chiefs, congrats on your Stenerud yesterday, I wanted that card but you HOF Rookie cards put these prices a bit out of whack compared to the scale I am use to using. Amazing that I have any of those cards at all.
Fuzz
<< <i>Thanks guys and thanks as always Jason for yet another very interesting list. As an Oiler / Titan fan I would love to see Robert Brazile make it one day but I doubt there is any chance in that at all. >>
I wouldn't mind seeing "Dr. Doom" go in either...IMO he was more dominant than his HOF teammate Elvin Bethea..But LB is just one of the toughest positions to earn HOF honors...Such a long list of GREAT LB's out there that aren't getting the HOF recognition...
I think in his era (Mid 70's-Early 80's), he's only behind Gradishar, and thats mainly because Gradishar was one of the leaders of that great Orange Crush defense that has yet to place anyone in the HOF...The upcoming class will be Gradishar's last year as a modern candidate though...Brazile's last will be the next year, 2009..If he's ever going to go in, that will be his shot..Once he makes the Senior list, hes behind a bunch of great LBs...
Here's another list (I know, I know I have too many of them..lol) of upcoming "Last Chance" guys in the modern era...Much like Roger Wehrli was this year...
2008--Randy Gradishar, Bob Kuechenberg, Drew Pearson
2009--Robert Brazile, Ken Stabler
2010--Matt Blair, Cliff Branch, Fred Dean
2011--Ray Guy, Lester Hayes, Ken Anderson
2012--Kenny Easley, Donnie Shell
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL. >>
Just out of curiosity, when do you think that changed? At what point did the AFL start to reach critical mass and become something more than a barn league? For me, I think it was around '63 or '64. Having the Chiefs and Chargers emerge from the pack with the future Hall of Fame talent on their rosters set the stage for having the league be more attractive to incoming players.
Like that gimpy, sleepy looking QB from Alabama
<< <i> LB-Chris Hanburger-9
CB-Lemar Parrish-8
OT-Winston Hill-8 >>
Three guys I always champion in these discussions.
<< <i>
<< <i>The AFL guys are simple disrespected...In some cases, you do have to lessen the accomplishments, because especially in the early AFL years it was a large case of haves and have nots...But some of these guys would have been just as good in the NFL. >>
Just out of curiosity, when do you think that changed? At what point did the AFL start to reach critical mass and become something more than a barn league? For me, I think it was around '63 or '64. Having the Chiefs and Chargers emerge from the pack with the future Hall of Fame talent on their rosters set the stage for having the league be more attractive to incoming players.
Like that gimpy, sleepy looking QB from Alabama
<< <i> LB-Chris Hanburger-9
CB-Lemar Parrish-8
OT-Winston Hill-8 >>
Three guys I always champion in these discussions. >>
I think the AFL gained credibility every year along the way, but in 1965 when the AFL got their TV contract they became a major player...The explosive offensive game the AFL was known for gave people a reason to watch and take notice...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
To Deny Monk, Tagliabue Is a Travesty
By Leonard Shapiro
Special to washingtonpost.com
Thursday, February 15, 2007; 11:18 AM
Art Monk deserved better.
And so did Paul Tagliabue.
Art Monk ended his career as the NFL's all-time leader in receptions, a record he broke in 1992. (Wilfredo Lee - AP)
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It's been almost two weeks since the all-time leading receiver in Washington Redskins history and arguably the greatest sports commissioner of his generation were not voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame at the annual selection meeting in Miami Beach the day before Super Bowl XLI.
And I still don't get it. After 24 years on the selection committee, I honestly believed 2007 was going to be Monk's year, if only because he had waited so long and the number of can't-miss first time eligible players seemed rather thin.
In the interest of full disclosure, I've been responsible for presenting Monk to the board of selectors until this year, when my status -- after retiring from The Post in October after 37 years -- was changed on the board to an at-large representative. David Elfin of The Washington Times was added to the board as the Washington representative and he made an excellent case on Monk's behalf. And of course I followed up with more supporting evidence to advance his candidacy.
Monk had been among the final 15 every year since he became eligible seven years ago, and at least this year he made it through the first cut from 17 (counting two senior candidates) to the final ten (actually 11, because there was a tie).
Then, one more time, the unthinkable occurred. Monk couldn't make it to the last six on a day when Dallas Cowboys receiver Michael Irvin, in only his third year of eligibility, was among the exalted half-dozen. At that point in the process, the 40 selectors are asked to vote yes or no, and any candidate with 81 per cent of the yes votes gets his ticket punched to Canton.
I've always voted yes for any man who gets to the final six, unless I happen to know for a fact that he was an ax-murderer, or worse. And yes, once Irvin got that far, he did get my yes vote, even if I also believe it was a travesty of the highest order that he now will go into the Hall ahead of Monk, for a wide variety of reasons.
I've seen too many worthy players make it to the last six, and then get blackballed by what we like to call "silent assassins" in the final yes-no tally. It happened a few years back to Miami offensive lineman Bob Kuechenberg, and the poor guy has never gotten that far again, and may not considering the number of offensive lineman--five finalists this year, and more coming--who likely will shove him to the back of the line, including Russ Grimm.
It happened twice to Giants linebacker Harry Carson, who was so frustrated by the seemingly cruel and unusual process that he took the very unusual step of asking not to be considered for induction by the selectors.
Fortunately, we ignored him and eventually voted a very worthy Carson in to the Class of 2006.
But back to Irvin over Monk. Yes, the Dallas "Playmaker" had more touchdown catches than Monk and some very big postseason games, including three Super Bowl victories. Good for him. He's a Hall of Fame player, but I honestly thought my fellow selectors would take a "wait-your-turn" approach, and put Monk in this year and Irvin next.
Monk's numbers across the board were more than comparable, including a stunning statistic that two-thirds of Monk's 888 catches in Washington went for first downs, an incredibly high rate of success for a classic possession receiver. Oh, and by the way, when he retired, wasn't he also the all-time leading receiver in NFL history?
But far more important in my mind was the character issue. Unlike baseball, that's not supposed to be part of the equation in the pro football by-laws. But perhaps it should be. Irvin was a loud-mouth, look-at-me, point-that-camera-in-my-direction precursor to many of the preening prima donna wide receivers now prancing across our screens every Sunday.
More significantly, he also was guilty of some despicable behavior off the field, as well, getting involved in a series of highly publicized incidents involving cocaine, hookers, marital infidelity and general flaunting of the law.
Of course, none of those transgressions prevented him from landing a plum job as an analyst on ESPN, where he's also said some pretty dumb things. And in the weeks before the Hall of Fame meeting, both he and several of his colleagues unabashedly lobbied for his selection. Shame on him, and them, but that's show biz.
Monk was the anti-Irvin, on and off the field. He went about his business as a true professional, a player who never once went to Joe Gibbs and asked his coach to get him the ball more often. He was a consummate athlete who took great pride in his downfield blocking, a quiet, soft-spoken presence in the locker room who preferred not to speak much to the media if only because he felt uncomfortable in the spotlight. No arrests, no perp walks, no drug busts, not even a whiff of scandal or wrong-doing at any time during or after his brilliant career.
His only semi-flaw? Perhaps some writers on the 40-man committee may still remember Monk's reluctance to wave his own flag back when he was playing, more than occasionally rejecting interview requests from his own local beat writers as well as out-of-towners when he was very much in his prime and a key part of the Redskins story. You'd like to think that wouldn't matter much in the selection process, but quite frankly, human nature occasionally takes over, and perhaps that's cost him a few votes.
The good news is that at least he's getting closer. The glut of receivers who have been in Monk's path in recent years -- Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, James Lofton and now Irvin -- have all been elected to the Hall. Next year, first-time eligible Chris Carter of the Vikings will be the main competition, but it would be another travesty if Carter made it on the first ballot, or any ballot before Monk finally gets his due.
You'd like to think that Monk's three Super Bowl rings, compared to none for Carter, who never played in that game, will be a telling factor in finally getting Monk to Canton. I'm still convinced that it's going to happen for Monk, and sooner rather than later.
Sadly, Tagliabue may have to wait a while longer. This year, he didn't even advance from the final 17 to the last 10 in his first year on the final ballot, eliminated in the first round of voting.
As selectors, we often ask the question, "can you write the history of the National Football League without him?" Of course you can't write any history of the NFL without having Tagliabue in the first paragraph. Over his 18-year tenure since taking over from Pete Rozelle, an already prosperous league moved into another galaxy in terms of its growth and worldwide popularity.
At the moment, television contracts Tagliabue negotiated are estimated to be worth $25.2 billion. League attendance is nearly at 100 percent. Super Bowl XLI attracted the second largest audience in history, with ads selling for a record $2.6 million for a 30-second spot. And the vast majority of games remain televised, free of charge to the public.
The league never had a work stoppage on Tagliabue's watch. The NFL has the toughest drug testing program in all of sports, and continues to fund and monitor research to keep up with the latest science of cheating.
Tagliabue presided over the wildly successful expansion to 32 teams, oversaw the building or total renovation of more than 20 league stadiums and played a huge role in increasing the value of each franchise in the league, some now reportedly worth over $1 billion each.
With the exception of Los Angeles, every city that saw its NFL franchise leave town for a more lucrative market -- St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Houston -- eventually got another team back, and four of them are now playing in magnificent new stadiums. To his everlasting credit, Tagliabue also strong-armed the impetuously irresponsible owner of the New Orleans franchise, Tom Benson, from moving the franchise after Hurricane Katrina.
And by the way, did you notice there were seven African American head coaches on the sidelines this season, two of them taking their teams to the Super Bowl two weeks ago? When Tagliabue took over, there were none, and his prodding of the owners to adapt the so-called Rooney Rule four years ago to make certain at least one minority candidate be interviewed for every head coaching vacancy has obviously paid huge dividends, on the field and in front offices around the league.
So how could my fellow selectors not vote him in on his first appearance on the final ballot?
Without specifically revealing who said what, let's just say I didn't hear a single reason that made any sense at all. There was some talk that he wasn't pro-active enough in getting new stadiums built for San Francisco, San Diego or Oakland, that he didn't push hard enough to make a deal to bring pro football back to Los Angeles. Some said the extension in the collective bargaining agreement Tagliabue brokered before he left office has a chance of blowing up in two years because too many owners are unhappy with the agreement.
Mostly though, there was an ugly whiff of vindictiveness in the room.
Unlike Rozelle, a gregarious PR man with a perpetual tan, Tagliabue was a buttoned-down by-the-book lawyer with a backroom pallor. He was stiff standing on a podium, occasionally condescending and evasive in news conference settings.
Over his reign, media access to players and coaches on many teams -- including closed practices, no interviews allowed with assistant coaches, not enough time in locker rooms after practice -- also was reduced considerably. Tagliabue, some have said, could have stopped it, but never really tried very hard to intervene.
Still, if that's the reason any selector -- 40 media men and women from around the country -- voted no, shame on them. This was not about us, and never should be. It was about the big picture and outside-the-box thinking from a visionary CEO who took his league to unparalleled heights, and kept it there year after year as by far the most popular team sport in the country.
Art Monk and Paul Tagliabue both deserved far better, and in 2008, the misguided naysayers in the room need to look in the mirror, come to their senses and do the right thing. They didn't embarrass Monk and Tagliabue on Feb. 3; they embarrassed themselves.
Leonard Shapiro can be reached at Badgerlen@hotmail.com or Badgerlen@aol.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>How do you guys feel about Jim Tyrer?
As a kid he was always one of the linemen on my imaginary teams that I lay out in different formations sheerly based on the size listed on his cards. How else would a kid pick linemen
Five years ago or so I wondered why I'd never seen him even on a preliminary list for the HOF. I did some research and found in 1980 he had killed his wife and then himself... I'm guessing that is why he hasn't even been nominated even though the HOF is supposed to be only about on field achievements. I think he was a 9 time afl allstar / pro bowler. I'm not advocating the voters should overlook such even if it is an unwritten / unspoken rule. >>
The other thing that hurts Tyrer is that 7 of his 9 Pro Bowls were in the AFL...And unfortunately, the old AFL players still get viewed as less than their NFL counterparts. If you look at the All-Time AFL team (which Tyrer was a part of) only 11 of the 24 players are in the Pro Football HOF...Ed Budde was another excellent O-lineman who played along side Tyrer in KC..7 Pro Bowls of his own...
Here's a list of retired players with the most Pro Bowls who are eligible, but NOT yet in the HOF..Some of these may surprise you:
OG-Randall McDaniel-12
LB-Chris Hanburger-9
LB-Maxie Baughan-9
LB-Derrick Thomas-9
OG-Walt Sweeney-9
OT-Jim Tyrer-9
LB-Les Richter-8
CB-Lemar Parrish-8
DE-Chris Doleman-8
OT-Winston Hill-8
OT-George Kunz-8
S-Steve At-water-8
First Team all-pro selections:
JOG-Randall McDaniel-7
OC-Dermontti Dawson-6
OC-Mick Tinglehoff-6
OT-Jim Tyrer-6 (AFL)
DE-Jerry Mays-6 (AFL)
OG-Walt Sweeney-6 (AFL)
CB-Dave Grayson-5 (AFL)
DT-Houston Antwine-5 (AFL)
OT-Winston Hill-5 (AFL)
OG-Jerry Kramer-5
OG-Dick Stanfel-5
LB-Robert Brazile-5
LB-Chuck Howley-5
S-Johnny Robinson-5 (AFL)
WR-Del Shofner-5
P-Ray Guy-5
I realize there's a overlap of players on these lists, but Jason nearly every one of these players deserve some serious consideration for the Hall imo. It's only a matter of time before many eventually get their just due.
And you can add these to the list:
Billy Wilson ... 1950's 49ers star end
Jerry Smith ....1960's-70's Redskins end
Max McGee .....1950-60's Packers end and drinker
John Brodie ....1956-73 49ers QB and pro golfer
Fuzzy Thurston... 1960's Packers guard
Alex Karras..... 1958-70 Lions Def. Tackle, actor and gambler
Lionel Taylor ...1960's Broncos superb receiving end
Mac Speedie ... 1946-52 Browns end
Jake Scott .... 1970's Dolphins safety
I can think of many others. Anyone want to add to the list?
You know how I feel about Jerry Smith. Him, Hanburger and Len Hauss are the 70's Skins that are most worthy. I feel that way about Pat Fischer, too, but I think that's probably something of a non-starter. (Anybody who doubts his greatness should have a little talk with Mr. Ronnie Lott, who is a big fan of his.)
I'm not getting involved in this fight too deeply again, but...I hope Shapiro showed that level of enthusiasm in his presentation for Art. That first down stat is a real eye opener.
Get on it Jason......
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
1968 Hanberger PSA 8
Makes the one I just won look like a steal. I think mine will get at least a 7....We'll see, I don't have it in hand yet....
This one cost $20 delivered.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I honestly thought Brodie was already in until a month or two ago. It's rare that I make a mistake like that.
You know how I feel about Jerry Smith. Him, Hanburger and Len Hauss are the 70's Skins that are most worthy. I feel that way about Pat Fischer, too, but I think that's probably something of a non-starter. (Anybody who doubts his greatness should have a little talk with Mr. Ronnie Lott, who is a big fan of his.)
I'm not getting involved in this fight too deeply again, but...I hope Shapiro showed that level of enthusiasm in his presentation for Art. That first down stat is a real eye opener. >>
I'm a big fan of Pat Fischer too. I remember watching all those match up's during the 1970's with the Eagles 6'8" Carmichael and the 5'9" Fischer doing battle. There weren't many double teams or cover 2's in those days. You either had to be able to cover one on one or you were sitting on the pine. Fischer had a long, steady career and was a hard hitter for his size too. Len Hauss was an under rated center too. Was always rated among the leagues top 4 or 5 best centers while he was active. He anchored some great teams in the 1970's. He just gets lost in the mix for some reason.
Dave, that's a fine raw pick up by you. Bidders are paying strong money for 8's thinking Hanburger gets in the Hall soon. Shoppinglucy is never afraid of pulling a large trigger. Great buyer.
The winning bidder is an aggressive set registry buyer. The under bidder was me. I thought I was being extra ggressive and figured I would win that card for at most $250. Obviously the extra $80 cushion wasn't enough. Oh well, my 7 will have to do for now.
I didn't know you were the under bidder. You're no slouch either when it comes to buying vintage football. I wonder if Art was in the mix too? You gotta support those Redskins. I didn't know shoppinglucy was on the registry. Under a different name or the same?
Regards,
Rich