well that really sums it up. if Lombardi, whom the SB Trophy is named after, had to wait 2 years why should some of these others feel so left out if they have to wait.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to dissect it, or which angle you want to look at it from. Cris Carter should be in the HOF already. Period. He was an elite player. And if he didn't make it for whatever reason this year (which obviously he didn't), Shannon Sharpe should have. He retired with all the records for TEs. I mean what if he was eligible for the first time last year, before Gonzo broke his records? Would he have been a first ballot guy at that point? And shouldn't his 3 Super Bowls count for A LOT on top of his great regular season stats? With so many deserving players waiting for induction, the voters should fill all 7 spots until that logjam is relieved. And don't even get me started on why they go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down from (what is it, 25?) to 2, and then elect only one. Arghh!!!!!! Some of the voters have their heads so far up their butts that they can smell their own breath. Just my 2 cents
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>well that really sums it up. if Lombardi, whom the SB Trophy is named after, had to wait 2 years why should some of these others feel so left out if they have to wait. >>
<< <i>To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to dissect it, or which angle you want to look at it from. Cris Carter should be in the HOF already. Period. He was an elite player. And if he didn't make it for whatever reason this year (which obviously he didn't), Shannon Sharpe should have. He retired with all the records for TEs. I mean what if he was eligible for the first time last year, before Gonzo broke his records? Would he have been a first ballot guy at that point? And shouldn't his 3 Super Bowls count for A LOT on top of his great regular season stats? With so many deserving players waiting for induction, the voters should fill all 7 spots until that logjam is relieved. And don't even get me started on why they go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down from (what is it, 25?) to 2, and then elect only one. Arghh!!!!!! Some of the voters have their heads so far up their butts that they can smell their own breath. Just my 2 cents >>
The senior process is the same as the modern process with one major difference. Only 9 members of the senior committee do the voting there, and 44 for the modern/regular committee. The 9 senior members get an initial ballot of "nominees" typically 70-80 senior candidates in which they have to select their top 15. After all 9 voters submit their ballots, the top 15 (usually more than that because of ties in the voting) senior candidates are sent back out to the FIVE senior committee members who will go to Canton in August and select 2 finalists from that list of 15+ senior semifinalists. They always fly in a HOF player or two to speak on a specific candidate they are interested in selecting. In most cases, this is how I usually know or get a feel on who might be selected a day or two prior to the senior selection. Last year, well i knew Bob Hayes was locked in abotu 3 months out if you look back through the thread. Then a day or so prior, I pretty much knew it would be a DE as the 2nd selection based on the players they were flying in for the meeting. I did think it was going to be Greenwood over Humphrey though, and if it were, he would have went in with the Steelers in the Super Bowl and all that.
The disconnect is that not enough of the 44 member HOF committee is buying off on the selections made by 5 of the members. I thought humphrey was a fine choice, as he had been close to induction his last few years as a modern candidate so he already had some support. But the 44 member HOF committee is getting younger and younger by the year. And it would seem many of the new voters aren't going to simply rubber stamp the senior selections anymore. Every since they went to 2 senior nominees instead of one, Bob Hayes, Marshall Goldberg and Claude Humphrey have all been rejected. So, it would seem, it's 100% you will get one of the seniors, but 50/50 on getting both in.
They did at least use all 5 modern HOF spots, because when they vote those guys down to the final 5, and THEN don't give them 80% of the vote, to me is really wasting a spot. Especially wehn honestly i think every one of the 15 modern finalists this year were HOF caliber players.
As far as Carter goes, I have no idea why he didn;t get in. he will eventually, but WR is typically one of the toughest positions to make the HOF. As for Sharpe, I said all along he would be a longshot year one. There's never been a first ballot TE go into the HOF, and while Sharpe is one of the best ever, I would never put him as THE best ever. I think he will likely get in next year though, but Carter could loose some support when he gets compared to a "true" first ballot HOF WR next year in Jerry Rice. Kinda like the "true" rookie card debate. Everyone has a different opinion on what makes a "true" first ballot HOFer and what doesnt.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Anyone need a PSA 9 '73 Kuechenberg? I have one for sale.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Anyone have any idea when the new cards will show up in the set? How long did it take last year?
Dave >>
I sent the requests to add the new cards to the HOF RC set and delete them from the future HOF sets on Monday. The response I got was "We'll get the sets updated this week."
Seems like it took awhile last year, but they were also dealing with the rollout of the Registry V2.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Holmes didn't even get both feet down, his right landed on top of his left...what a joke. But I'm not bitter.....
Jasen >>
sure looks likes its down to me >>
I stand corrected. Nice catch. The front page of the Orlando Sentinel had a picture of what I saw on the jumbotron at the stadium, his left foot down with his right foot tucked behind his left and not touching the ground. While I don't feel that the game was called the same on both sides, the bottom line is this......if you put your defense on the field with 2:38 to go and a 3-point lead, you have to keep them out of the end zone. We weren't able to do that, good job by the Steelers. Thanks for the pic, I do feel a little better knowing he got both feet down.
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
If that's how baseball does it, then I hope they do NOT do it that way...lol... I hate the baseball HOF system, and I hope football never tries to follow them in anything they do with their HOF...
I don't have a problem with keeping them all on the same ballot, although it has to be hard for the voters to compare say a Ralph Wilson vs. a Cris Carter and decide who is more HOF worthy. I certainly don't want them to open the flood gates to every assistant coach and referee who anyone thinks is a HOFer because they were in the game for years. And if they separate the players from the non-players, that is exactly what is going to happen. When I go to the HOF, I don't want to have to sift through all of the non-player stuff I am not interested in seeing.
Keep the classes small (max 6-7) and keep the membership exclusive rather than inclusive...For a coach or contributer or owner to be HOF worthy, he's REALLY gonna have to be HOF worthy in order to take a spot away from a real player. Same could be said for Punter/Kicker/Special Team players...If they are going to take a spot from someone who played 60+ plays per game vs. their 5-10 plays per game they are going to have to be the greatest thing since sliced bread in order to do it. And to me, that's the way it should be...
Ralph Wilson has been an owner for 50 years, I think his election was well deserved. To be honest, I don't know that we will see any other non-players (other than coaches) going in for the next decade. Tagliabue is really the only guy with a shot..Art Modell will never get 80% support, and George Young is probably a longshot, who might get in way down the road.
Coaches belong on the same ballot as the players. They have measurable assets to help voters decide their HOF worthiness.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I stand corrected. Nice catch. The front page of the Orlando Sentinel had a picture of what I saw on the jumbotron at the stadium, his left foot down with his right foot tucked behind his left and not touching the ground. While I don't feel that the game was called the same on both sides, the bottom line is this......if you put your defense on the field with 2:38 to go and a 3-point lead, you have to keep them out of the end zone. We weren't able to do that, good job by the Steelers. Thanks for the pic, I do feel a little better knowing he got both feet down.
Jasen >>
Jasen, I have seen those pics also and certainly would agree based on those. Here is a decent complilation of pics from lots of angles, its where I got the pic above from. http://www.azcentral.com/closeup/articles/0203spt-closeupholmestd.html Most of the pics agree with the view you saw in the Sentinel and on the Jumbotron. Numbers 10 and 12 seem to show the best that his toes were down at some point.
Jeffrey
Looking to have some custom cuts or plain custom cards built? PM me.
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to dissect it, or which angle you want to look at it from. Cris Carter should be in the HOF already. Period. He was an elite player. And if he didn't make it for whatever reason this year (which obviously he didn't), Shannon Sharpe should have. He retired with all the records for TEs. I mean what if he was eligible for the first time last year, before Gonzo broke his records? Would he have been a first ballot guy at that point? And shouldn't his 3 Super Bowls count for A LOT on top of his great regular season stats? With so many deserving players waiting for induction, the voters should fill all 7 spots until that logjam is relieved. And don't even get me started on why they go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down from (what is it, 25?) to 2, and then elect only one. Arghh!!!!!! Some of the voters have their heads so far up their butts that they can smell their own breath. Just my 2 cents >>
Just wanted to add that Carter was one of the best red zone receivers to play the game and was very dangerous near the goaline b/c of his hands and size.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player. >>
How so?
Over the last 10 HOF elections, exactly 6 non-players have been elected. Over the same 10 years, 10 possible HOF slots WERE NOT USED. 10 players or non-players reached the final YES/NO vote, and did not get the 80%. And 7 of those 10 were MODERN candidates...
10 slots not used vs. 6 slots used by non-players...Not sure I understand how the non-players are "holding back" players from entering the HOF...
Splitting them simply isn't necessary. They aren't maxing out the HOF Classes with them together.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player. >>
How so?
Over the last 10 HOF elections, exactly 6 non-players have been elected. Over the same 10 years, 10 possible HOF slots WERE NOT USED. 10 players or non-players reached the final YES/NO vote, and did not get the 80%. And 7 of those 10 were MODERN candidates...
10 slots not used vs. 6 slots used by non-players...Not sure I understand how the non-players are "holding back" players from entering the HOF...
Splitting them simply isn't necessary. They aren't maxing out the HOF Classes with them together.
Jason >>
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year? >>
I assure that is the case. Check the last 10 HOF classes.
This is the mis-interpretation of the process that seems to be prevalent. Wilson got more votes than Carter in the cutdown from 10-5. Had Carter made the final 5, he likely would have also gotten the 80% and been elected. It is a VOTE, and as with most votes majority rules. Just like when we vote on player additions to the various sets. Wilson GOT MORE VOTES than Carter. It is that simple. No spots were stolen.
The Football HOF has chosen to be an exclusive club. That being said, they upped the max numbers a couple of years ago from 6 back to 7 as it used to be. They also "split" the senior candidates so they are no longer part of the 15-10-5 cutdown process. Honestly I'm not sure how they could improve the process at this point. I think it works great. IMO, the VOTING could be more consistent and/or better. But just because me, you or whoever else think Carter was one of the best 5 candidates, that doesn't mean enough of the HOF voters felt the same. In fact, the voting proves exactly that.
Of course, they could just go to a BCS process and let a computer decide who was a HOFer or not...I mean we've seen how well that's worked in college football...lol...No one is ever going to be happy. Someone is always going to get "snubbed" anytime there is voting, and those voting results aren't unanimous. Pro Bowl snubs, All-Pro snubs, MVP snubs, etc, etc...
Its a vote based on 44 personal opinions. Simple as that.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year? >>
I assure that is the case. Check the last 10 HOF classes.
This is the mis-interpretation of the process that seems to be prevalent. Wilson got more votes than Carter in the cutdown from 10-5. Had Carter made the final 5, he likely would have also gotten the 80% and been elected. It is a VOTE, and as with most votes majority rules. Just like when we vote on player additions to the various sets. Wilson GOT MORE VOTES than Carter. It is that simple. No spots were stolen.
The Football HOF has chosen to be an exclusive club. That being said, they upped the max numbers a couple of years ago from 6 back to 7 as it used to be. They also "split" the senior candidates so they are no longer part of the 15-10-5 cutdown process. Honestly I'm not sure how they could improve the process at this point. I think it works great. IMO, the VOTING could be more consistent and/or better. But just because me, you or whoever else think Carter was one of the best 5 candidates, that doesn't mean enough of the HOF voters felt the same. In fact, the voting proves exactly that.
Of course, they could just go to a BCS process and let a computer decide who was a HOFer or not...I mean we've seen how well that's worked in college football...lol...No one is ever going to be happy. Someone is always going to get "snubbed" anytime there is voting, and those voting results aren't unanimous. Pro Bowl snubs, All-Pro snubs, MVP snubs, etc, etc...
Its a vote based on 44 personal opinions. Simple as that.
Jason >>
Ok, but if contributors were inducted separately Carter might have received more votes. I find it hard to believe that Wilson's age had nothing to due w/ the vote. I do think he (Wilson) earned a spot in the Hall though.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>So what did Ralph Wilson do that makes him worthy of the HOF? >>
He got 36+ Pro Football HOF voters to select him...
Here's his official HOF Bio...
Ralph Wilson was the man responsible for reintroducing pro football to Western New York when, as one of the original owners in the American Football League, he formed the Buffalo Bills in 1959. As the undeniable leader of the Bills, Wilson continues to play a major role among National Football League franchise owners as “the voice of reason,” for his ability to tackle some of the NFL’s toughest issues.
During his tenure as owner of the Bills, Wilson has watched two of his teams capture the AFL Championship (1964-1965) and AFC titles in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993 on the way to an unprecedented four consecutive appearances in Super Bowls XXV, XXVI, XXVII, and XXVIII. The team also won AFL/AFC Eastern Division titles in 1966, 1980, 1988, 1989, and 1995. The Bills’ 103 regular season wins in the 1990s were second best, behind only the San Francisco 49ers.
Always a football fan, Wilson first entered the pro football world when he purchased a minority share of the Detroit Lions. He later joined Lamar Hunt and the six other AFL originals who collectively became known as “The Foolish Club.”
In the beginning, members of the NFL and the sports media regarded the AFL with considerable skepticism. Even though the early years of the AFL were at best a struggle and Wilson was losing money, he “never once thought of throwing in the towel or selling the team.” Determined to see the league succeed, Wilson even invested in another AFL team to prevent it from financial collapse. “The Foolish Club” did succeed and following initial talks in January 1965 between Wilson and the late Carroll Rosenbloom, then owner of the NFL’s Baltimore Colts, a full merger plan between the two leagues was developed and implemented.
A former President of the AFL, Wilson served on the Expansion Committee of that league and the AFL-NFL Negotiations Committee. He was also prominent in the negotiations, which resulted in a 1977 agreement between the NFL Management Council and the NFL Players Association.
Once described as the “conscience” of the NFL, Wilson has also served as the Chairman of NFL Pension Committee and Labor Committee and currently serves on the Board of NFL Charities, the Super Bowl Site Selection Committee, and the NFL’s Expansion Committee.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The other HOF owners to compare him to...Not sure how he isn't deserving of the induction.
Bert Bell 1933-1959 -- Commissioner - National Football League, 1946-1959; Team Owner - Philadelphia Eagles, 1933-1940, Pittsburgh Steelers, 1941-1946
Charles W. Bidwill, Sr. 1933-1947 -- Team Owner - Chicago Cardinals, 1933-1947
Al Davis 1963-present -- Team Owner - Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1966-present; Head Coach - Oakland Raiders, 1963-1965; Commissioner - American Football League, 1966
George Halas 1920-1983 -- Founder/Team Owner - Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears, 1920-1983; Head Coach - Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears, 1920-1929, 1933-1942, 1946-1955, 1958-1967; Co-Founder - National Football League, 1920
Lamar Hunt 1959-2006 -- Co-Founder - American Football League, 1959; Team Owner - Dallas Texans/Kansas City Chiefs, 1959-present
Earl (Curly) Lambeau 1919-1953 -- Team Founder/Coach/General Manager - Green Bay Packers, 1919-1949; Head Coach - Chicago Cardinals, 1950-1951, Washington Redskins, 1952-1953
Tim Mara 1925-1959 -- Founder/Team Owner - New York Giants, 1925-1959
Wellington Mara 1937-2005 -- Team Administrator/Team Owner - New York Giants, 1937-2005
George Preston Marshall 1932-1969 -- Founder/Team Owner - Boston Braves/Boston Redskins/Washington Redskins, 1932-1969
Dan Reeves 1941-1971 -- Team Owner - Cleveland/Los Angeles Rams, 1941-1971
Art Rooney 1933-1988 -- Founder/Team Owner - Pittsburgh Pirates/Steelers, 1933-1988
Dan Rooney 1955-present -- Team Administrator/Team Owner - Pittsburgh Steelers, 1955-present
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Ralph Wilson is very comparable to Lamar Hunt and Al Davis in his role of getting the AFL off of the ground and influencing both it's history and the subsequent history of the NFL after the merger.
I'm on the bubble about having non-players inducted separately. The issue I see with NOT having a separate vote is that HOF worthy contributers (e.g. Ed and Steve Sabol, officials, scouts) have nearly zero chance of ever being elected. In a way, many contributers (what I mean are non-coaches/owners) fall into the same boat as punters, modern fullbacks and modern non-pass catching tight ends. Their contributions may be exempelary, however the HOF voters are NEVER going to elect them in ahead of a team owner, head coach, or every down player.
By the way, an order just popped and I have the following for sale:
1996 Brian Dawkins PSA 8 - $8 dlvd obo 1996 SP Jonathan Ogden PSA 9 - $20 dlvd obo
I also still have a PSA 10 1984 Topps John Elway that I'm shopping around if anyone is interested.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>I'm on the bubble about having non-players inducted separately. The issue I see with NOT having a separate vote is that HOF worthy contributers (e.g. Ed and Steve Sabol, officials, scouts) have nearly zero chance of ever being elected. In a way, many contributers (what I mean are non-coaches/owners) fall into the same boat as punters, modern fullbacks and modern non-pass catching tight ends. Their contributions may be exempelary, however the HOF voters are NEVER going to elect them in ahead of a team owner, head coach, or every down player.
By the way, an order just popped and I have the following for sale:
1996 Brian Dawkins PSA 8 - $8 dlvd obo 1996 SP Jonathan Ogden PSA 9 - $20 dlvd obo
I also still have a PSA 10 1984 Topps John Elway that I'm shopping around if anyone is interested.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I agree there are a number of players and contributors who deserve but will probably never make it into the Hall. The Sabols are NFL Films and have contributed to the increased fan interest of the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i> I agree there are a number of players and contributors who deserve but will probably never make it into the Hall. The Sabols are NFL Films and have contributed to the increased fan interest of the league. >>
That's because they don't belong in the same room with a bust sitting beside Johnny Unitas...Put them in the writers wing of the HOF. It already exists and is an honorary induction, doesn't require comparisons or cutdown votes. If the HOF wants to create a "contributors" wing that works the same way, and doesn't equate to them sharing space beside the true all-time great players/coaches, then I'd be fine with that.
I just don't think it is necessary. As I pointed out previously, the HOF committee has elected in exactly 6 non-players in the past 10 years. Of those 6, FOUR were coaches and 2 were owners. In those same 10 years, there were 10 HOF slots that went unused. I'm just unclear how we can say players are being left out because of the PROCESS when all the possible slots are not being used. If they are being left out, it is 110% for one reason only, because the voters did not select them. It's that simple.
Love the Sabols, and certainly think they did alot to change the way the NFL is viewed today. BUT, they have no place among the Bronko Nagurski's and Jim Brown's in the HOF. I totally agree with that recent article I posted in that the title "HOFer" is just being used way too losely these days...This isn't the baseball HOF...lol...Just because a guy was a good player and just because there are fans who think he's one of the best or deserving doesn't mean he is. And THAT is why we have voters.
Let's relate it to PSA grading...Are you someone who'd rather have PSA err on the side of the higher grade or lower grade when they are on the fence about a card? Most would say they would rather see a card undergraded than overgraded...Of course until you are talking about a card that THEY SUBMITTED! lol...NOW it's all about hoping they err on the side of the higher grade because it is human nature to think and feel that your card, or your HOF candidate is better than maybe he/it actually is.
Nothing trumps a vote IMO...Everyone gets to voice their opinion and let the chips fall where they may.
Here's to hoping they keep the Football HOF system exactly the same as it is...If there is anything I would change it would be to allow more voters. Make it an even 60 or 80 to lower the margin of error. They've been doing that recently as they've raised the number of voters from 39 to 44. Wouldn't mind seeing some HOF players included in the voting process either. But the process is great. You never know which 5 guys you'll get, and waiting for the announcements is always a fun day for me.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I never said he wasn't worthy of induction Jason, I just asked a question. Worthy or not, I feel the HOF should allow one spot per year for contributors/owners/non-players and be put in their own separate place in the HOF.
i dont think any candidate really steals votes away from others. jason can correct me if i am wrong but each candidate is vote on by alone. the first round each player can get a yes vote from all of the voters, then the list is paired down based on meeting the % requirement. Then another vote is taken, to get to the final five. Here someone could take votes from someone else but that is the numbers game in this round. Then each of the 5 are voted on again alone. Each needs 80% to get in.
Based on history Carter will get in. If it takes him a few more years whats the problem. This will always be the case with only allowing 5 modern players every year max. Now if Wilson would not have gotten the final 80% than you could make the arguement that he did take a spot away from someone else potentially. Lets all get a grip and read what Carter had to say...His feeling is that all were worthy and not everyone could make it this year. He knows he will get his due at some point. As will the other 4 that didnt make the final 5.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
Letter purportedly from former Dallas Cowboy Hayes under more scrutiny
12:11 AM CST on Thursday, February 5, 2009 By BRAD TOWNSEND / The Dallas Morning News btownsend@dallasnews.com
Lucille Hester, the 69-year-old former school teacher who provided the "goosebump moment" of Bob Hayes' Pro Football Hall of Fame election last weekend, tried Wednesday to answer thorny questions about type fonts.
Hayes' family members have questioned the validity of the letter she read to a national TV audience, noting in particular a "Bob Hayes" signature they say is obviously forged.
But on Wednesday, the focus turned to the letter's typeface. At The Dallas Morning News' request, one of the world's most noted typeface designers examined a photo of the purported Hayes letter, which was dated Oct. 29, 1999.
Dutch designer Luc(as) de Groot said the letter's typeface is "definitely Calibri," which he designed for Microsoft in 2003. It was not available to the public until the debut of Microsoft Office 2007.
Hayes, the former Cowboys receiver and Olympic sprint champion, died on Sept. 18, 2002. Hester has said Hayes, whom she identifies as her half-brother, signed and gave her the letter in 1999 while visiting her in Washington, D.C.
"I don't know who typed it, or about some font," Hester said Wednesday. While trying to recall the day Hayes gave her the letter, Hester said her brother gave her documents on two occasions – when she visited him in Jacksonville, Fla., and when he flew to meet her in Philadelphia.
She said she believes it was the latter occasion when he gave her the letter she read at the Hall of Fame news conference.
"He was sick, and he kept telling me he was going to die, that he might not make it to 2000," she recalled. She said he gave her an autographed football, then signed the letter and handed it to her. She said she doesn't know who typed the letter and when.
She said that when she returned to Washington, she put the letter in a drawer, where it stayed for several years. She said she believes the original is in a Bob Hayes Foundation file in an attorney's office, and that the one she read in Tampa, Fla., on Saturday was a photocopy.
"If I'm not too clear [on the details] right now; I'm really very, very sorry," she said. "I just hate that this moment is spoiled for [Hayes] with things about me."
Even if the letter had been saved on a disc in 1999 and printed recently, de Groot said that doesn't account for the presence of both the Calibri font and signature.
On Tuesday, The News e-mailed a photo of the letter to de Groot's Berlin-based company, LucasFonts. In a phone interview Wednesday, de Groot said that since the letter was slightly angled in the photo, he took extra steps to verify its font.
"I simply retyped a few sentences [of the letter] in the current version of Microsoft Word, which has the Calibri as the default form," he said. "That's the best test. Then you will also see that the lines end the same, in places and proportions of the line length.
"Something like that would only be possible with the exact same typeface."
The News sent the same photo to forensic typography expert Thomas Phinney, who agreed that the typeface is Calibri.
"I conclude that the document shown in the photo could not have been printed when Hayes was still alive to sign it," he said.
"Well, if I heard that, I would be convinced," said Hayes' former business manager Ted McIntosh, who on behalf of Hayes family members e-mailed media outlets last Sunday, asserting that the letter was fake and that Hester was not Bob's biological sister. "You talked to the [font] expert, so what else is there to say?"
In contrast to recent days, Hayes family members seemed to make a concerted effort to lay aside the controversy and focus on this weekend's festivities in Honolulu, where the six-member 2009 Hall class will be recognized at Sunday's Pro Bowl game.
Representing Hayes will be his second wife, Janice Hayes-Mohl, and son Bob Hayes Jr. Hester also will make the trip. Earlier this week, Hayes-Mohl was quoted as saying that during 11 years of marriage, Bob Sr. never referred to Hester as his sister.
"Of course that won't be a problem," Hayes-Mohl said of Hester's presence in Hawaii. "Of course, we're not happy with the situation, but it's such a wonderful moment for our family, honoring Bob's memory and accomplishments.
"We won't let anything spoil that. I know how to be civil when I need to."
Hester will fly to Hawaii this morning from Washington, Hayes-Mohl and Bob Jr. from Dallas. For Bob Jr., 31, it is his first trip to Hawaii.
"It's going to be mind-blowing," Bob Jr. said. "Representing him ... and just letting the people know that he does have family, even though there's all this commotion going on, which I don't want to talk about."
A son's regrets McIntosh said Bob Jr. still struggles with the fact his father died at 59, after battling prostate cancer and kidney and liver ailments. For the last five years, Bob Jr. has worked at The Mailing Company in Dallas, processing incoming and outgoing mail.
He said he stayed at a friend's house last Friday night, where he happened to turn on the TV the next day and see his father's name among those elected to the Hall.
"I got real happy, just thinking to myself that it's long overdue," he said. "I just wish he was still alive to witness this occasion, because this was something he was always talking about.
"You're sad one minute, happy the next. But that's life. Nothing I can do about it."
Hester said she doesn't know what to expect when she sees Hayes family members in Hawaii.
"They're still my family," she said. "I have no feelings of animosity. Things happen. It's human behavior and emotions. And with human behavior and emotions, sometimes we say things we regret.
"I really am not sure what it's all about, and at this point I'm not interested in 'Why?' I'm more interested that we would be a family, to come together to celebrate the greatness of a family member."
Looking to have some custom cuts or plain custom cards built? PM me.
<< <i>Worthy or not, I feel the HOF should allow one spot per year for contributors/owners/non-players. >>
They already do this...
1- They upped the maximum number of inductees from 6 to 7. 2- They haven't inducted TWO non-players/coaches in any given year since 1967. They did elect 2 coaches in 1993, and their names were Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh.. 3- In the years in which no non-players were NOT HOF worthy (like last year) they've used that extra spot for a player. if you break it out into a separate vote, then we lose a possible player inductee spot in the years in which no non-players are voted into.
How large/inclusive do we need the Football HOF to be? 8 per year now? 10? 20? It will just water it down...
Looking deeper into the numbers, as I pointed out in the previous 10 HOF classes, only 6 non-players and just 2 of those non-coaches have been inducted. In the 10 previous year to that (1990-1999), there were 9 non-players, and just 4 of them were not coaches.
So in 20 years, 20 HOF classes, we've had 6 contributors elected. Of those 20 years we've had 29 possible HOF slots NOT USED. Meaning no one was elected into them..Not a player, not a coach, not a contributor...Why would we need to add an entirely seperate additional HOF slot for 6 additional guys who could have easily been elected using one of those 29 un-used slots?
I don't know, I guess I am the only one who can't see that logic. Even if you want to add the 9 coaches who have been elected in the past 20 years, that is still just a total of 15 non-players in 20 years, with 29 slots un-used. So let's increase the numbers? Sorry just don't get it...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>i dont think any candidate really steals votes away from others. jason can correct me if i am wrong but each candidate is vote on by alone. the first round each player can get a yes vote from all of the voters, then the list is paired down based on meeting the % requirement. Then another vote is taken, to get to the final five. Here someone could take votes from someone else but that is the numbers game in this round. Then each of the 5 are voted on again alone. Each needs 80% to get in.
Based on history Carter will get in. If it takes him a few more years whats the problem. This will always be the case with only allowing 5 modern players every year max. Now if Wilson would not have gotten the final 80% than you could make the arguement that he did take a spot away from someone else potentially. Lets all get a grip and read what Carter had to say...His feeling is that all were worthy and not everyone could make it this year. He knows he will get his due at some point. As will the other 4 that didnt make the final 5. >>
Jay, close enough, and your point is absolutely correct. The voting goes like this:
Each candidate is not put to a yes/no vote alone. Only the final 5 and the 2 senior candidates are voted yes/no and need 80% for election.
When the voters enter the room, they have a ballot of 15 modern finalists. Each voters picks their top 10 from that list of 15. They tabulate the total votes and cut the 15 down to 10. Armed with a new list of 10, the voters select their top 5 from that list. Same thing, all of those votes are tabulated and the top 5 vote getters are selected for the final round. Now, there could have been 7 or 8 of those 10 who got 80% of the vote. And there could have been only 2 or 3 of them who got 80%. Regardless the 5 guys with the most total votes of those 10 make the final cut.
Only then are those 5 put to a YES/NO vote and required to receive 80% YES votes. This year and last year only 2 of the senior candidates failed to receive the 80%. All 5 modern candidates have been elected. But just a few years ago, Class of 2005, both Michael Irvin AND Harry Carson made the final cut and failed to receive 80%. Class of 2004 Rayfield Wright and Bob Hayes (Senior candidate) made the final cut and failed to receive the 80%vote. In 2003, Bob Kuechenberg missed the 80%. Class of 2007 and 2006 had the maximum number get in.
The point of my post was to say that contributors/owners IN GENERAL are not keeping players out of the HOF, the voters are. All of the numbers and facts over a 20 year period show this to be true.
Did Ralph Wilson trump Cris Carter this year? Sure. He trumped all of the players who didn't get in. But that doesn't mean he is stealing a spot. Did he trump him last year??? Obviously THE VOTERS have not felt like Carter is/was so great that he needed to push right to the front of the line. They reserve that for the guys they deem truly worthy..no brainers like Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson...As I've said, it is a process that values exclusiveness vs. inclusiveness..Adding more slots for contributors goes total against that. Does that mean the HOF won't eventually make that type of change? Absolutely not. I've heard more than a few voters and at least one HOF Board Memeber say the same thing so it may very well happen.
But if they go that riute, I hope they pull all of the non-players/coaches totally out of their current placements in the HOF and stick them all in a separate wing that doesn't require 80% to get in. More of an honorary induction just like the writers wing. If they split them out as they have done the Senior candidates and basically require an owner/contributor to be put directly to the final Yes/No vote, I beleive they will reduce the maximum number of players allowed in order to compensate. So then you are left with 4 Modern player slots MAX each year. Is that really what we want?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I completely agree with all your pionts. If they cut down the number of moderns to 4 to allow the extra contributor slot like the current sr. rules then it would be taking away a modern slot each year even if a contributor is not elected. In my mind and i think many of the voters contributors almost have to trump what the players did on the field to warrant their selection. Now maybe the push for Wilson was a little stronger due to his age but I think the voters knew he was going to go in at some point soon and they would rather have him alive than dead to make his own speech.
Jay
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I completely agree with all your pionts. If they cut down the number of moderns to 4 to allow the extra contributor slot like the current sr. rules then it would be taking away a modern slot each year even if a contributor is not elected. In my mind and i think many of the voters contributors almost have to trump what the players did on the field to warrant their selection. Now maybe the push for Wilson was a little stronger due to his age but I think the voters knew he was going to go in at some point soon and they would rather have him alive than dead to make his own speech.
Jay >>
Yep! And it's not like Wilson's candidacy came out of nowhere. He hadn't be a finalist, but he had been a semifinalist in previous years. it's no different than guys getting a stronger or weaker push in any given year based on their position, their team, or if it is their last year of eligibility.
Wilson finally got into the "room" and his presentation was enough to swing the votes his way. Good for him, he deserves it. The similar push for Al Wistert is because he is very old but still able to make his speech as well. That doesn't make him any less deserving. Hey, whatever it takes to get your name into the final HOF meeting/vote. As we've seen in the past, guys who finally get there after a few years of waiting tend to open the eyes of some of the voters who maybe didn't know much about them. To me, they usually end up with a great mix of locks, oh so close-ers and wildcards just about every year.
If it were a computerize system and we knew 99.9% who ewas getting elected even before the vote, there will be no reason for the vote..And IMO would take away much of the intrigue that makes the Football HOF elections the most interesting of all the sports.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Has anyone dealt with undersized cards before? I have submitted a real nice 71 Topps Sanders 2 times now. Both times it came back as N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT. This time I sent in a 71 Topps Landry. It also came back as N6. These cards came from different places. Do I keep trying or just enjoy a real nice raw Sanders?
Buffalo Bills owner took fan-friendly route to Hall of Fame
NFL owners talk all the time about how important the fans are to their teams. That the fans are family. That, in reality, the fans "own" the team and the owners themselves are merely the stewards of a franchise.
But if the fans were the true owners, they wouldn't charge themselves personal seat licenses of $100,000 for the right to purchase game tickets. They wouldn't charge themselves $40 to park their car in a stadium lot. They wouldn't charge themselves $10 for a cup of beer.
In reality, the fans are the motor that generates revenue for a franchise. The owners are businessmen first, friend-of-the-fan second. Ownership loyalty to a fan base is too often tied to their pocketbooks.
NFL franchises have abandoned cities for the opportunity to make more money elsewhere. Baltimore lost the Colts, Cleveland lost the Browns, Houston lost the Oilers and St. Louis lost the Cardinals …
But Buffalo will not lose the Bills – not as long as Ralph Wilson is the owner.
"People become attached to the franchise," said Wilson the other day in Tampa, Fla. "They take their children to the game. So many people across the country I have met have said, 'My father used to take me to the games in old War Memorial Stadium in downtown Buffalo. We used to stand in the end zone.' The people in a community become attached to a team. It gives them a quality of life.
"I came into the game because I enjoyed the game. I wanted to be a part of ownership. Pro football to me is not about making money. Now that might sound a little off the track. But it's not. It's a matter of competition, the thrill of the game, being the greatest sport in America, the thrill of seeing players like Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith, and all the players I've seen over the last half century.
"I think even though Buffalo is receding economically and it's more difficult for us to operate than other areas, we can still survive."
Wilson could move the Bills to Los Angeles tomorrow if he so chose. But instead of seeking options, he's seeking solutions. Cutting a deal with Toronto to host a few regular-season games is one of his solutions. That eases the cost for ticket buyers in a shrinking city like Buffalo.
"I think it would be very damaging, speaking just for Buffalo now, to move that team," Wilson said. "I think it would be crushing to the fans if they didn't have that team, win or lose.
"I think as long as a team is not losing a lot of money … if ownership can't afford to stay, then they should move. But if they can get some help from the residents, the taxpayers and other people, they should stay. So I have voted against all relocations. All. Because I don't think it was right."
We on the Hall of Fame selection committee voted Wilson into its Class of 2009 last weekend. I have since received several e-mails challenging the selection of Wilson. Most argued the Hall of Fame should have selected either Cris Carter or Shannon Sharpe.
I sat in on the record 6½-hour meeting Saturday. I listened to all the presentations and all the debate on the 17 candidates. At the end of the day, I concluded that Ralph Wilson may have been the most deserving candidate on the entire ballot. So did a number of my 43 peers on the committee.
That's why Wilson will be enshrined this summer. There will be no apologies offered. There will be no apologies needed. Wilson is 90. He's waited long enough for this honor. Read the book, The Birth of the New NFL, by Larry Felser. You'll understand.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
There is going to be a definite red white and blue motif to this year's induction ceremony. Bills fans will turn out in force, much like the Skins fans did last year.
WR looks likely to logjam for several years now, with players blocking each other. Rice is a slam dunk, but after him, Carter and Brown take votes away from each other - they're too similar for some voters to feel comfortable picking one but not the other, and it's easy to settle the matter by picking people from other positions. Andre Reed is clearly behind them, and I don't see anyone coming up for voting who will be clearly ahead of both of them until Harrison, Moss, or Owens makes the ballot (Isaac Bruce would probably be clearly ahead of them if he plays one more decent year, but if he retires now IMO he'd be fairly even with them).
I'm predicting Dick LeBeau as a Senior candidate next year FWIW.
HI guys I have been getting a ton of email asking if i am quiting the set or selling since my set was dropped of the reg and tought best to just respond here. First sorry for not responding to anyone over the last 10 days it has been just a horrid time ,To start with my home pc crashed a couple weeks ago then last Sunday in the 1st quarter of the big game i get a phone call saying my office is on fire ,thank god nobody was hurt but the building is a total loss and as you can guess i lost all in it incluing my other pc,s just got back up yesterday
Anyway is many of you may know i sold my 63 topps set to Kirk Robinson a great guy by the way and asked consetta to just change ownership on it well because it had the 63,s listed in my hof et also she just deleated that set also then before i could esond to her my @#$%^ * week started. So to respond to everyone no i am not quiting at this time as a matter of fact i need a couple 63,s at this point now of course as always anything i have is available at anytime at the right price but not looking to sell.
Anyway again sorry to all for not responding sooner but as you can guess i have had my hands full this last week but move into my new office space on the 16th have pc,s up again and look forward to talking sportscards and football again it sure is better then what i have been dealing with the last 10 days
Good to hear from you Art. I hope everything settles out with the office. Thank god no one was hurt. I look forward to reading your posts again real soon. Frank
Yes, good to hear from you Art. Definitely could have been worse...
Hope you can get back into your groove soon!
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
20Barry20 aka shagrotn77 no longer listed on ANY of the sets...Wonder if there will be a sell-off soon?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sorry to hear about your office, what a drag. I wouldn't know where to start if my business burned to the ground. Hey, maybe you should go to D.C. and ask for a bailout, every other business seems to be getting money, at least I'd know my tax dollars are going to good guy!!
<< <i>20Barry20 aka shagrotn77 no longer listed on ANY of the sets...Wonder if there will be a sell-off soon?
I got a peculiar email from his addy this weekend. I hope everything works out for him. >>
Yeah, same here. Didn't know if it would affect his card collection, but with all of his sets now deleted, I guess it must have...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>well that really sums it up. if Lombardi, whom the SB Trophy is named after, had to wait 2 years why should some of these others feel so left out if they have to wait. >>
Agreed! Go PACK!
<< <i>To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to dissect it, or which angle you want to look at it from. Cris Carter should be in the HOF already. Period. He was an elite player. And if he didn't make it for whatever reason this year (which obviously he didn't), Shannon Sharpe should have. He retired with all the records for TEs. I mean what if he was eligible for the first time last year, before Gonzo broke his records? Would he have been a first ballot guy at that point? And shouldn't his 3 Super Bowls count for A LOT on top of his great regular season stats? With so many deserving players waiting for induction, the voters should fill all 7 spots until that logjam is relieved. And don't even get me started on why they go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down from (what is it, 25?) to 2, and then elect only one. Arghh!!!!!! Some of the voters have their heads so far up their butts that they can smell their own breath. Just my 2 cents
The senior process is the same as the modern process with one major difference. Only 9 members of the senior committee do the voting there, and 44 for the modern/regular committee. The 9 senior members get an initial ballot of "nominees" typically 70-80 senior candidates in which they have to select their top 15. After all 9 voters submit their ballots, the top 15 (usually more than that because of ties in the voting) senior candidates are sent back out to the FIVE senior committee members who will go to Canton in August and select 2 finalists from that list of 15+ senior semifinalists. They always fly in a HOF player or two to speak on a specific candidate they are interested in selecting. In most cases, this is how I usually know or get a feel on who might be selected a day or two prior to the senior selection. Last year, well i knew Bob Hayes was locked in abotu 3 months out if you look back through the thread. Then a day or so prior, I pretty much knew it would be a DE as the 2nd selection based on the players they were flying in for the meeting. I did think it was going to be Greenwood over Humphrey though, and if it were, he would have went in with the Steelers in the Super Bowl and all that.
The disconnect is that not enough of the 44 member HOF committee is buying off on the selections made by 5 of the members. I thought humphrey was a fine choice, as he had been close to induction his last few years as a modern candidate so he already had some support. But the 44 member HOF committee is getting younger and younger by the year. And it would seem many of the new voters aren't going to simply rubber stamp the senior selections anymore. Every since they went to 2 senior nominees instead of one, Bob Hayes, Marshall Goldberg and Claude Humphrey have all been rejected. So, it would seem, it's 100% you will get one of the seniors, but 50/50 on getting both in.
They did at least use all 5 modern HOF spots, because when they vote those guys down to the final 5, and THEN don't give them 80% of the vote, to me is really wasting a spot. Especially wehn honestly i think every one of the 15 modern finalists this year were HOF caliber players.
As far as Carter goes, I have no idea why he didn;t get in. he will eventually, but WR is typically one of the toughest positions to make the HOF. As for Sharpe, I said all along he would be a longshot year one. There's never been a first ballot TE go into the HOF, and while Sharpe is one of the best ever, I would never put him as THE best ever. I think he will likely get in next year though, but Carter could loose some support when he gets compared to a "true" first ballot HOF WR next year in Jerry Rice. Kinda like the "true" rookie card debate. Everyone has a different opinion on what makes a "true" first ballot HOFer and what doesnt.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> Holmes didn't even get both feet down, his right landed on top of his left...what a joke. But I'm not bitter.....
Jasen >>
sure looks likes its down to me
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Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Anyone have any idea when the new cards will show up in the set? How long did it take last year?
Dave >>
I sent the requests to add the new cards to the HOF RC set and delete them from the future HOF sets on Monday. The response I got was "We'll get the sets updated this week."
Seems like it took awhile last year, but they were also dealing with the rollout of the Registry V2.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i> Holmes didn't even get both feet down, his right landed on top of his left...what a joke. But I'm not bitter.....
Jasen >>
sure looks likes its down to me
I stand corrected. Nice catch. The front page of the Orlando Sentinel had a picture of what I saw on the jumbotron at the stadium, his left foot down with his right foot tucked behind his left and not touching the ground. While I don't feel that the game was called the same on both sides, the bottom line is this......if you put your defense on the field with 2:38 to go and a 3-point lead, you have to keep them out of the end zone. We weren't able to do that, good job by the Steelers. Thanks for the pic, I do feel a little better knowing he got both feet down.
Jasen
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
If that's how baseball does it, then I hope they do NOT do it that way...lol... I hate the baseball HOF system, and I hope football never tries to follow them in anything they do with their HOF...
I don't have a problem with keeping them all on the same ballot, although it has to be hard for the voters to compare say a Ralph Wilson vs. a Cris Carter and decide who is more HOF worthy. I certainly don't want them to open the flood gates to every assistant coach and referee who anyone thinks is a HOFer because they were in the game for years. And if they separate the players from the non-players, that is exactly what is going to happen. When I go to the HOF, I don't want to have to sift through all of the non-player stuff I am not interested in seeing.
Keep the classes small (max 6-7) and keep the membership exclusive rather than inclusive...For a coach or contributer or owner to be HOF worthy, he's REALLY gonna have to be HOF worthy in order to take a spot away from a real player. Same could be said for Punter/Kicker/Special Team players...If they are going to take a spot from someone who played 60+ plays per game vs. their 5-10 plays per game they are going to have to be the greatest thing since sliced bread in order to do it. And to me, that's the way it should be...
Ralph Wilson has been an owner for 50 years, I think his election was well deserved. To be honest, I don't know that we will see any other non-players (other than coaches) going in for the next decade. Tagliabue is really the only guy with a shot..Art Modell will never get 80% support, and George Young is probably a longshot, who might get in way down the road.
Coaches belong on the same ballot as the players. They have measurable assets to help voters decide their HOF worthiness.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
I stand corrected. Nice catch. The front page of the Orlando Sentinel had a picture of what I saw on the jumbotron at the stadium, his left foot down with his right foot tucked behind his left and not touching the ground. While I don't feel that the game was called the same on both sides, the bottom line is this......if you put your defense on the field with 2:38 to go and a 3-point lead, you have to keep them out of the end zone. We weren't able to do that, good job by the Steelers. Thanks for the pic, I do feel a little better knowing he got both feet down.
Jasen >>
Jasen,
I have seen those pics also and certainly would agree based on those. Here is a decent complilation of pics from lots of angles, its where I got the pic above from.
http://www.azcentral.com/closeup/articles/0203spt-closeupholmestd.html
Most of the pics agree with the view you saw in the Sentinel and on the Jumbotron. Numbers 10 and 12 seem to show the best that his toes were down at some point.
Jeffrey
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<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to dissect it, or which angle you want to look at it from. Cris Carter should be in the HOF already. Period. He was an elite player. And if he didn't make it for whatever reason this year (which obviously he didn't), Shannon Sharpe should have. He retired with all the records for TEs. I mean what if he was eligible for the first time last year, before Gonzo broke his records? Would he have been a first ballot guy at that point? And shouldn't his 3 Super Bowls count for A LOT on top of his great regular season stats? With so many deserving players waiting for induction, the voters should fill all 7 spots until that logjam is relieved. And don't even get me started on why they go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down from (what is it, 25?) to 2, and then elect only one. Arghh!!!!!! Some of the voters have their heads so far up their butts that they can smell their own breath. Just my 2 cents
Just wanted to add that Carter was one of the best red zone receivers to play the game and was very dangerous near the goaline b/c of his hands and size.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player. >>
How so?
Over the last 10 HOF elections, exactly 6 non-players have been elected. Over the same 10 years, 10 possible HOF slots WERE NOT USED. 10 players or non-players reached the final YES/NO vote, and did not get the 80%. And 7 of those 10 were MODERN candidates...
10 slots not used vs. 6 slots used by non-players...Not sure I understand how the non-players are "holding back" players from entering the HOF...
Splitting them simply isn't necessary. They aren't maxing out the HOF Classes with them together.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I also think that non players should be voted on in a separate vote from players. That's how it's done in baseball. It's not fair to lump them in the same vote IMO. >>
I think that is a good point and it would free up a space for a player. >>
How so?
Over the last 10 HOF elections, exactly 6 non-players have been elected. Over the same 10 years, 10 possible HOF slots WERE NOT USED. 10 players or non-players reached the final YES/NO vote, and did not get the 80%. And 7 of those 10 were MODERN candidates...
10 slots not used vs. 6 slots used by non-players...Not sure I understand how the non-players are "holding back" players from entering the HOF...
Splitting them simply isn't necessary. They aren't maxing out the HOF Classes with them together.
Jason >>
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year?
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year? >>
I assure that is the case. Check the last 10 HOF classes.
This is the mis-interpretation of the process that seems to be prevalent. Wilson got more votes than Carter in the cutdown from 10-5. Had Carter made the final 5, he likely would have also gotten the 80% and been elected. It is a VOTE, and as with most votes majority rules. Just like when we vote on player additions to the various sets. Wilson GOT MORE VOTES than Carter. It is that simple. No spots were stolen.
The Football HOF has chosen to be an exclusive club. That being said, they upped the max numbers a couple of years ago from 6 back to 7 as it used to be. They also "split" the senior candidates so they are no longer part of the 15-10-5 cutdown process. Honestly I'm not sure how they could improve the process at this point. I think it works great. IMO, the VOTING could be more consistent and/or better. But just because me, you or whoever else think Carter was one of the best 5 candidates, that doesn't mean enough of the HOF voters felt the same. In fact, the voting proves exactly that.
Of course, they could just go to a BCS process and let a computer decide who was a HOFer or not...I mean we've seen how well that's worked in college football...lol...No one is ever going to be happy. Someone is always going to get "snubbed" anytime there is voting, and those voting results aren't unanimous. Pro Bowl snubs, All-Pro snubs, MVP snubs, etc, etc...
Its a vote based on 44 personal opinions. Simple as that.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'm not sure if it's the case or not but could Wilson of taken Carter's spot this year? >>
I assure that is the case. Check the last 10 HOF classes.
This is the mis-interpretation of the process that seems to be prevalent. Wilson got more votes than Carter in the cutdown from 10-5. Had Carter made the final 5, he likely would have also gotten the 80% and been elected. It is a VOTE, and as with most votes majority rules. Just like when we vote on player additions to the various sets. Wilson GOT MORE VOTES than Carter. It is that simple. No spots were stolen.
The Football HOF has chosen to be an exclusive club. That being said, they upped the max numbers a couple of years ago from 6 back to 7 as it used to be. They also "split" the senior candidates so they are no longer part of the 15-10-5 cutdown process. Honestly I'm not sure how they could improve the process at this point. I think it works great. IMO, the VOTING could be more consistent and/or better. But just because me, you or whoever else think Carter was one of the best 5 candidates, that doesn't mean enough of the HOF voters felt the same. In fact, the voting proves exactly that.
Of course, they could just go to a BCS process and let a computer decide who was a HOFer or not...I mean we've seen how well that's worked in college football...lol...No one is ever going to be happy. Someone is always going to get "snubbed" anytime there is voting, and those voting results aren't unanimous. Pro Bowl snubs, All-Pro snubs, MVP snubs, etc, etc...
Its a vote based on 44 personal opinions. Simple as that.
Jason >>
Ok, but if contributors were inducted separately Carter might have received more votes. I find it hard to believe that Wilson's age had nothing to due w/ the vote. I do think he (Wilson) earned a spot in the Hall though.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>So what did Ralph Wilson do that makes him worthy of the HOF? >>
He got 36+ Pro Football HOF voters to select him...
Here's his official HOF Bio...
Ralph Wilson was the man responsible for reintroducing pro football to Western New York when, as one of the original owners in the American Football League, he formed the Buffalo Bills in 1959. As the undeniable leader of the Bills, Wilson continues to play a major role among National Football League franchise owners as “the voice of reason,” for his ability to tackle some of the NFL’s toughest issues.
During his tenure as owner of the Bills, Wilson has watched two of his teams capture the AFL Championship (1964-1965) and AFC titles in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993 on the way to an unprecedented four consecutive appearances in Super Bowls XXV, XXVI, XXVII, and XXVIII. The team also won AFL/AFC Eastern Division titles in 1966, 1980, 1988, 1989, and 1995. The Bills’ 103 regular season wins in the 1990s were second best, behind only the San Francisco 49ers.
Always a football fan, Wilson first entered the pro football world when he purchased a minority share of the Detroit Lions. He later joined Lamar Hunt and the six other AFL originals who collectively became known as “The Foolish Club.”
In the beginning, members of the NFL and the sports media regarded the AFL with considerable skepticism. Even though the early years of the AFL were at best a struggle and Wilson was losing money, he “never once thought of throwing in the towel or selling the team.” Determined to see the league succeed, Wilson even invested in another AFL team to prevent it from financial collapse. “The Foolish Club” did succeed and following initial talks in January 1965 between Wilson and the late Carroll Rosenbloom, then owner of the NFL’s Baltimore Colts, a full merger plan between the two leagues was developed and implemented.
A former President of the AFL, Wilson served on the Expansion Committee of that league and the AFL-NFL Negotiations Committee. He was also prominent in the negotiations, which resulted in a 1977 agreement between the NFL Management Council and the NFL Players Association.
Once described as the “conscience” of the NFL, Wilson has also served as the Chairman of NFL Pension Committee and Labor Committee and currently serves on the Board of NFL Charities, the Super Bowl Site Selection Committee, and the NFL’s Expansion Committee.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bert Bell 1933-1959 -- Commissioner - National Football League, 1946-1959; Team Owner - Philadelphia Eagles, 1933-1940, Pittsburgh Steelers, 1941-1946
Charles W. Bidwill, Sr. 1933-1947 -- Team Owner - Chicago Cardinals, 1933-1947
Al Davis 1963-present -- Team Owner - Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders, 1966-present; Head Coach - Oakland Raiders, 1963-1965; Commissioner - American Football League, 1966
George Halas 1920-1983 -- Founder/Team Owner - Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears, 1920-1983; Head Coach - Decatur Staleys/Chicago Staleys/Chicago Bears, 1920-1929, 1933-1942, 1946-1955, 1958-1967; Co-Founder - National Football League, 1920
Lamar Hunt 1959-2006 -- Co-Founder - American Football League, 1959; Team Owner - Dallas Texans/Kansas City Chiefs, 1959-present
Earl (Curly) Lambeau 1919-1953 -- Team Founder/Coach/General Manager - Green Bay Packers, 1919-1949; Head Coach - Chicago Cardinals, 1950-1951, Washington Redskins, 1952-1953
Tim Mara 1925-1959 -- Founder/Team Owner - New York Giants, 1925-1959
Wellington Mara 1937-2005 -- Team Administrator/Team Owner - New York Giants, 1937-2005
George Preston Marshall 1932-1969 -- Founder/Team Owner - Boston Braves/Boston Redskins/Washington Redskins, 1932-1969
Dan Reeves 1941-1971 -- Team Owner - Cleveland/Los Angeles Rams, 1941-1971
Art Rooney 1933-1988 -- Founder/Team Owner - Pittsburgh Pirates/Steelers, 1933-1988
Dan Rooney 1955-present -- Team Administrator/Team Owner - Pittsburgh Steelers, 1955-present
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
By the way, an order just popped and I have the following for sale:
1996 Brian Dawkins PSA 8 - $8 dlvd obo
1996 SP Jonathan Ogden PSA 9 - $20 dlvd obo
I also still have a PSA 10 1984 Topps John Elway that I'm shopping around if anyone is interested.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
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E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>I'm on the bubble about having non-players inducted separately. The issue I see with NOT having a separate vote is that HOF worthy contributers (e.g. Ed and Steve Sabol, officials, scouts) have nearly zero chance of ever being elected. In a way, many contributers (what I mean are non-coaches/owners) fall into the same boat as punters, modern fullbacks and modern non-pass catching tight ends. Their contributions may be exempelary, however the HOF voters are NEVER going to elect them in ahead of a team owner, head coach, or every down player.
By the way, an order just popped and I have the following for sale:
1996 Brian Dawkins PSA 8 - $8 dlvd obo
1996 SP Jonathan Ogden PSA 9 - $20 dlvd obo
I also still have a PSA 10 1984 Topps John Elway that I'm shopping around if anyone is interested.
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I agree there are a number of players and contributors who deserve but will probably never make it into the Hall. The Sabols are NFL Films and have contributed to the increased fan interest of the league.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
I agree there are a number of players and contributors who deserve but will probably never make it into the Hall. The Sabols are NFL Films and have contributed to the increased fan interest of the league. >>
That's because they don't belong in the same room with a bust sitting beside Johnny Unitas...Put them in the writers wing of the HOF. It already exists and is an honorary induction, doesn't require comparisons or cutdown votes. If the HOF wants to create a "contributors" wing that works the same way, and doesn't equate to them sharing space beside the true all-time great players/coaches, then I'd be fine with that.
I just don't think it is necessary. As I pointed out previously, the HOF committee has elected in exactly 6 non-players in the past 10 years. Of those 6, FOUR were coaches and 2 were owners. In those same 10 years, there were 10 HOF slots that went unused. I'm just unclear how we can say players are being left out because of the PROCESS when all the possible slots are not being used. If they are being left out, it is 110% for one reason only, because the voters did not select them. It's that simple.
Love the Sabols, and certainly think they did alot to change the way the NFL is viewed today. BUT, they have no place among the Bronko Nagurski's and Jim Brown's in the HOF. I totally agree with that recent article I posted in that the title "HOFer" is just being used way too losely these days...This isn't the baseball HOF...lol...Just because a guy was a good player and just because there are fans who think he's one of the best or deserving doesn't mean he is. And THAT is why we have voters.
Let's relate it to PSA grading...Are you someone who'd rather have PSA err on the side of the higher grade or lower grade when they are on the fence about a card? Most would say they would rather see a card undergraded than overgraded...Of course until you are talking about a card that THEY SUBMITTED! lol...NOW it's all about hoping they err on the side of the higher grade because it is human nature to think and feel that your card, or your HOF candidate is better than maybe he/it actually is.
Nothing trumps a vote IMO...Everyone gets to voice their opinion and let the chips fall where they may.
Here's to hoping they keep the Football HOF system exactly the same as it is...If there is anything I would change it would be to allow more voters. Make it an even 60 or 80 to lower the margin of error. They've been doing that recently as they've raised the number of voters from 39 to 44. Wouldn't mind seeing some HOF players included in the voting process either. But the process is great. You never know which 5 guys you'll get, and waiting for the announcements is always a fun day for me.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Based on history Carter will get in. If it takes him a few more years whats the problem. This will always be the case with only allowing 5 modern players every year max. Now if Wilson would not have gotten the final 80% than you could make the arguement that he did take a spot away from someone else potentially. Lets all get a grip and read what Carter had to say...His feeling is that all were worthy and not everyone could make it this year. He knows he will get his due at some point. As will the other 4 that didnt make the final 5.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
12:11 AM CST on Thursday, February 5, 2009
By BRAD TOWNSEND / The Dallas Morning News
btownsend@dallasnews.com
Lucille Hester, the 69-year-old former school teacher who provided the "goosebump moment" of Bob Hayes' Pro Football Hall of Fame election last weekend, tried Wednesday to answer thorny questions about type fonts.
Hayes' family members have questioned the validity of the letter she read to a national TV audience, noting in particular a "Bob Hayes" signature they say is obviously forged.
But on Wednesday, the focus turned to the letter's typeface. At The Dallas Morning News' request, one of the world's most noted typeface designers examined a photo of the purported Hayes letter, which was dated Oct. 29, 1999.
Dutch designer Luc(as) de Groot said the letter's typeface is "definitely Calibri," which he designed for Microsoft in 2003. It was not available to the public until the debut of Microsoft Office 2007.
Hayes, the former Cowboys receiver and Olympic sprint champion, died on Sept. 18, 2002. Hester has said Hayes, whom she identifies as her half-brother, signed and gave her the letter in 1999 while visiting her in Washington, D.C.
"I don't know who typed it, or about some font," Hester said Wednesday. While trying to recall the day Hayes gave her the letter, Hester said her brother gave her documents on two occasions – when she visited him in Jacksonville, Fla., and when he flew to meet her in Philadelphia.
She said she believes it was the latter occasion when he gave her the letter she read at the Hall of Fame news conference.
"He was sick, and he kept telling me he was going to die, that he might not make it to 2000," she recalled. She said he gave her an autographed football, then signed the letter and handed it to her. She said she doesn't know who typed the letter and when.
She said that when she returned to Washington, she put the letter in a drawer, where it stayed for several years. She said she believes the original is in a Bob Hayes Foundation file in an attorney's office, and that the one she read in Tampa, Fla., on Saturday was a photocopy.
"If I'm not too clear [on the details] right now; I'm really very, very sorry," she said. "I just hate that this moment is spoiled for [Hayes] with things about me."
Even if the letter had been saved on a disc in 1999 and printed recently, de Groot said that doesn't account for the presence of both the Calibri font and signature.
On Tuesday, The News e-mailed a photo of the letter to de Groot's Berlin-based company, LucasFonts. In a phone interview Wednesday, de Groot said that since the letter was slightly angled in the photo, he took extra steps to verify its font.
"I simply retyped a few sentences [of the letter] in the current version of Microsoft Word, which has the Calibri as the default form," he said. "That's the best test. Then you will also see that the lines end the same, in places and proportions of the line length.
"Something like that would only be possible with the exact same typeface."
The News sent the same photo to forensic typography expert Thomas Phinney, who agreed that the typeface is Calibri.
"I conclude that the document shown in the photo could not have been printed when Hayes was still alive to sign it," he said.
"Well, if I heard that, I would be convinced," said Hayes' former business manager Ted McIntosh, who on behalf of Hayes family members e-mailed media outlets last Sunday, asserting that the letter was fake and that Hester was not Bob's biological sister. "You talked to the [font] expert, so what else is there to say?"
In contrast to recent days, Hayes family members seemed to make a concerted effort to lay aside the controversy and focus on this weekend's festivities in Honolulu, where the six-member 2009 Hall class will be recognized at Sunday's Pro Bowl game.
Representing Hayes will be his second wife, Janice Hayes-Mohl, and son Bob Hayes Jr. Hester also will make the trip. Earlier this week, Hayes-Mohl was quoted as saying that during 11 years of marriage, Bob Sr. never referred to Hester as his sister.
"Of course that won't be a problem," Hayes-Mohl said of Hester's presence in Hawaii. "Of course, we're not happy with the situation, but it's such a wonderful moment for our family, honoring Bob's memory and accomplishments.
"We won't let anything spoil that. I know how to be civil when I need to."
Hester will fly to Hawaii this morning from Washington, Hayes-Mohl and Bob Jr. from Dallas. For Bob Jr., 31, it is his first trip to Hawaii.
"It's going to be mind-blowing," Bob Jr. said. "Representing him ... and just letting the people know that he does have family, even though there's all this commotion going on, which I don't want to talk about."
A son's regrets
McIntosh said Bob Jr. still struggles with the fact his father died at 59, after battling prostate cancer and kidney and liver ailments. For the last five years, Bob Jr. has worked at The Mailing Company in Dallas, processing incoming and outgoing mail.
He said he stayed at a friend's house last Friday night, where he happened to turn on the TV the next day and see his father's name among those elected to the Hall.
"I got real happy, just thinking to myself that it's long overdue," he said. "I just wish he was still alive to witness this occasion, because this was something he was always talking about.
"You're sad one minute, happy the next. But that's life. Nothing I can do about it."
Hester said she doesn't know what to expect when she sees Hayes family members in Hawaii.
"They're still my family," she said. "I have no feelings of animosity. Things happen. It's human behavior and emotions. And with human behavior and emotions, sometimes we say things we regret.
"I really am not sure what it's all about, and at this point I'm not interested in 'Why?' I'm more interested that we would be a family, to come together to celebrate the greatness of a family member."
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<< <i>Worthy or not, I feel the HOF should allow one spot per year for contributors/owners/non-players. >>
They already do this...
1- They upped the maximum number of inductees from 6 to 7.
2- They haven't inducted TWO non-players/coaches in any given year since 1967. They did elect 2 coaches in 1993, and their names were Chuck Noll and Bill Walsh..
3- In the years in which no non-players were NOT HOF worthy (like last year) they've used that extra spot for a player. if you break it out into a separate vote, then we lose a possible player inductee spot in the years in which no non-players are voted into.
How large/inclusive do we need the Football HOF to be? 8 per year now? 10? 20? It will just water it down...
Looking deeper into the numbers, as I pointed out in the previous 10 HOF classes, only 6 non-players and just 2 of those non-coaches have been inducted. In the 10 previous year to that (1990-1999), there were 9 non-players, and just 4 of them were not coaches.
So in 20 years, 20 HOF classes, we've had 6 contributors elected. Of those 20 years we've had 29 possible HOF slots NOT USED. Meaning no one was elected into them..Not a player, not a coach, not a contributor...Why would we need to add an entirely seperate additional HOF slot for 6 additional guys who could have easily been elected using one of those 29 un-used slots?
I don't know, I guess I am the only one who can't see that logic. Even if you want to add the 9 coaches who have been elected in the past 20 years, that is still just a total of 15 non-players in 20 years, with 29 slots un-used. So let's increase the numbers? Sorry just don't get it...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>i dont think any candidate really steals votes away from others. jason can correct me if i am wrong but each candidate is vote on by alone. the first round each player can get a yes vote from all of the voters, then the list is paired down based on meeting the % requirement. Then another vote is taken, to get to the final five. Here someone could take votes from someone else but that is the numbers game in this round. Then each of the 5 are voted on again alone. Each needs 80% to get in.
Based on history Carter will get in. If it takes him a few more years whats the problem. This will always be the case with only allowing 5 modern players every year max. Now if Wilson would not have gotten the final 80% than you could make the arguement that he did take a spot away from someone else potentially. Lets all get a grip and read what Carter had to say...His feeling is that all were worthy and not everyone could make it this year. He knows he will get his due at some point. As will the other 4 that didnt make the final 5. >>
Jay, close enough, and your point is absolutely correct. The voting goes like this:
Each candidate is not put to a yes/no vote alone. Only the final 5 and the 2 senior candidates are voted yes/no and need 80% for election.
When the voters enter the room, they have a ballot of 15 modern finalists. Each voters picks their top 10 from that list of 15. They tabulate the total votes and cut the 15 down to 10. Armed with a new list of 10, the voters select their top 5 from that list. Same thing, all of those votes are tabulated and the top 5 vote getters are selected for the final round. Now, there could have been 7 or 8 of those 10 who got 80% of the vote. And there could have been only 2 or 3 of them who got 80%. Regardless the 5 guys with the most total votes of those 10 make the final cut.
Only then are those 5 put to a YES/NO vote and required to receive 80% YES votes. This year and last year only 2 of the senior candidates failed to receive the 80%. All 5 modern candidates have been elected. But just a few years ago, Class of 2005, both Michael Irvin AND Harry Carson made the final cut and failed to receive 80%. Class of 2004 Rayfield Wright and Bob Hayes (Senior candidate) made the final cut and failed to receive the 80%vote. In 2003, Bob Kuechenberg missed the 80%. Class of 2007 and 2006 had the maximum number get in.
The point of my post was to say that contributors/owners IN GENERAL are not keeping players out of the HOF, the voters are. All of the numbers and facts over a 20 year period show this to be true.
Did Ralph Wilson trump Cris Carter this year? Sure. He trumped all of the players who didn't get in. But that doesn't mean he is stealing a spot. Did he trump him last year??? Obviously THE VOTERS have not felt like Carter is/was so great that he needed to push right to the front of the line. They reserve that for the guys they deem truly worthy..no brainers like Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson...As I've said, it is a process that values exclusiveness vs. inclusiveness..Adding more slots for contributors goes total against that. Does that mean the HOF won't eventually make that type of change? Absolutely not. I've heard more than a few voters and at least one HOF Board Memeber say the same thing so it may very well happen.
But if they go that riute, I hope they pull all of the non-players/coaches totally out of their current placements in the HOF and stick them all in a separate wing that doesn't require 80% to get in. More of an honorary induction just like the writers wing. If they split them out as they have done the Senior candidates and basically require an owner/contributor to be put directly to the final Yes/No vote, I beleive they will reduce the maximum number of players allowed in order to compensate. So then you are left with 4 Modern player slots MAX each year. Is that really what we want?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I completely agree with all your pionts. If they cut down the number of moderns to 4 to allow the extra contributor slot like the current sr. rules then it would be taking away a modern slot each year even if a contributor is not elected. In my mind and i think many of the voters contributors almost have to trump what the players did on the field to warrant their selection. Now maybe the push for Wilson was a little stronger due to his age but I think the voters knew he was going to go in at some point soon and they would rather have him alive than dead to make his own speech.
Jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Jason,
I completely agree with all your pionts. If they cut down the number of moderns to 4 to allow the extra contributor slot like the current sr. rules then it would be taking away a modern slot each year even if a contributor is not elected. In my mind and i think many of the voters contributors almost have to trump what the players did on the field to warrant their selection. Now maybe the push for Wilson was a little stronger due to his age but I think the voters knew he was going to go in at some point soon and they would rather have him alive than dead to make his own speech.
Jay >>
Yep! And it's not like Wilson's candidacy came out of nowhere. He hadn't be a finalist, but he had been a semifinalist in previous years. it's no different than guys getting a stronger or weaker push in any given year based on their position, their team, or if it is their last year of eligibility.
Wilson finally got into the "room" and his presentation was enough to swing the votes his way. Good for him, he deserves it. The similar push for Al Wistert is because he is very old but still able to make his speech as well. That doesn't make him any less deserving. Hey, whatever it takes to get your name into the final HOF meeting/vote. As we've seen in the past, guys who finally get there after a few years of waiting tend to open the eyes of some of the voters who maybe didn't know much about them. To me, they usually end up with a great mix of locks, oh so close-ers and wildcards just about every year.
If it were a computerize system and we knew 99.9% who ewas getting elected even before the vote, there will be no reason for the vote..And IMO would take away much of the intrigue that makes the Football HOF elections the most interesting of all the sports.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have submitted a real nice 71 Topps Sanders 2 times now. Both times it came back as N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT. This time I sent in a 71 Topps Landry. It also came back as N6. These cards came from different places.
Do I keep trying or just enjoy a real nice raw Sanders?
NFL owners talk all the time about how important the fans are to their teams. That the fans are family. That, in reality, the fans "own" the team and the owners themselves are merely the stewards of a franchise.
But if the fans were the true owners, they wouldn't charge themselves personal seat licenses of $100,000 for the right to purchase game tickets. They wouldn't charge themselves $40 to park their car in a stadium lot. They wouldn't charge themselves $10 for a cup of beer.
In reality, the fans are the motor that generates revenue for a franchise. The owners are businessmen first, friend-of-the-fan second. Ownership loyalty to a fan base is too often tied to their pocketbooks.
NFL franchises have abandoned cities for the opportunity to make more money elsewhere. Baltimore lost the Colts, Cleveland lost the Browns, Houston lost the Oilers and St. Louis lost the Cardinals …
But Buffalo will not lose the Bills – not as long as Ralph Wilson is the owner.
"People become attached to the franchise," said Wilson the other day in Tampa, Fla. "They take their children to the game. So many people across the country I have met have said, 'My father used to take me to the games in old War Memorial Stadium in downtown Buffalo. We used to stand in the end zone.' The people in a community become attached to a team. It gives them a quality of life.
"I came into the game because I enjoyed the game. I wanted to be a part of ownership. Pro football to me is not about making money. Now that might sound a little off the track. But it's not. It's a matter of competition, the thrill of the game, being the greatest sport in America, the thrill of seeing players like Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith, and all the players I've seen over the last half century.
"I think even though Buffalo is receding economically and it's more difficult for us to operate than other areas, we can still survive."
Wilson could move the Bills to Los Angeles tomorrow if he so chose. But instead of seeking options, he's seeking solutions. Cutting a deal with Toronto to host a few regular-season games is one of his solutions. That eases the cost for ticket buyers in a shrinking city like Buffalo.
"I think it would be very damaging, speaking just for Buffalo now, to move that team," Wilson said. "I think it would be crushing to the fans if they didn't have that team, win or lose.
"I think as long as a team is not losing a lot of money … if ownership can't afford to stay, then they should move. But if they can get some help from the residents, the taxpayers and other people, they should stay. So I have voted against all relocations. All. Because I don't think it was right."
We on the Hall of Fame selection committee voted Wilson into its Class of 2009 last weekend. I have since received several e-mails challenging the selection of Wilson. Most argued the Hall of Fame should have selected either Cris Carter or Shannon Sharpe.
I sat in on the record 6½-hour meeting Saturday. I listened to all the presentations and all the debate on the 17 candidates. At the end of the day, I concluded that Ralph Wilson may have been the most deserving candidate on the entire ballot. So did a number of my 43 peers on the committee.
That's why Wilson will be enshrined this summer. There will be no apologies offered. There will be no apologies needed. Wilson is 90. He's waited long enough for this honor. Read the book, The Birth of the New NFL, by Larry Felser. You'll understand.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hey DaveMRI , I finally figured it out....................there's a pretty good HOF rook card in here, also a sweet Heisman rook card.
Rice is a slam dunk, but after him, Carter and Brown take votes away from each other - they're too similar for some voters to feel comfortable picking one but not the other, and it's easy to settle the matter by picking people from other positions. Andre Reed is clearly behind them, and I don't see anyone coming up for voting who will be clearly ahead of both of them until Harrison, Moss, or Owens makes the ballot (Isaac Bruce would probably be clearly ahead of them if he plays one more decent year, but if he retires now IMO he'd be fairly even with them).
I'm predicting Dick LeBeau as a Senior candidate next year FWIW.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Jasen
<< <i>Has anyone else noticed that the live.com rebate no longer appears for cards? Unless I am missing something.......
Jasen >>
Jasen:
It's been gone for nearly two months...
Jasen
I have been getting a ton of email asking if i am quiting the set or selling since my set was dropped of the reg and tought best to just respond here.
First sorry for not responding to anyone over the last 10 days it has been just a horrid time ,To start with my home pc crashed a couple weeks ago then last Sunday in the 1st quarter of the big game i get a phone call saying my office is on fire ,thank god nobody was hurt but the building is a total loss and as you can guess i lost all in it incluing my other pc,s just got back up yesterday
Anyway is many of you may know i sold my 63 topps set to Kirk Robinson a great guy by the way and asked consetta to just change ownership on it well because it had the 63,s listed in my hof et also she just deleated that set also then before i could esond to her my @#$%^ * week started.
So to respond to everyone no i am not quiting at this time as a matter of fact i need a couple 63,s at this point now of course as always anything i have is available at anytime at the right price but not looking to sell.
Anyway again sorry to all for not responding sooner but as you can guess i have had my hands full this last week but move into my new office space on the 16th have pc,s up again and look forward to talking sportscards and football again it sure is better then what i have been dealing with the last 10 days
Art
Frank
Hope you can get back into your groove soon!
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
20Barry20 aka shagrotn77 no longer listed on ANY of the sets...Wonder if there will be a sell-off soon?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Sorry to hear about your office, what a drag. I wouldn't know where to start if my business burned to the ground. Hey, maybe you should go to D.C. and ask for a bailout, every other business seems to be getting money, at least I'd know my tax dollars are going to good guy!!
Doc
I got a peculiar email from his addy this weekend. I hope everything works out for him.
<< <i>20Barry20 aka shagrotn77 no longer listed on ANY of the sets...Wonder if there will be a sell-off soon?
I got a peculiar email from his addy this weekend. I hope everything works out for him. >>
Yeah, same here. Didn't know if it would affect his card collection, but with all of his sets now deleted, I guess it must have...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What shame. Trimmed I am assuming