Just to give some backstory, here are the most recent "top 10", the guys that made the cut from 15-10 but did not make the final 5 and gain induction...
2008: Cris Carter Richard Dent Bob Kuechenberg Randall McDaniel Derrick Thomas
2007: Fred Dean Richard Dent Art Monk Derrick Thomas Andre Tippett
Prior to 2007, only 8 modern candidates made it to the final cut, with 4 going to the final vote needing 80% for election. 2006: Claude Humphrey Michael Irvin Bob Kuechenberg Thurman Thomas
2005: L.C. Greenwood Russ Grimm Art Monk Derrick Thomas
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Bob Hayes Ralph Wilson Randall McDaniel Derrick Thomas
Made the cutdown to the final 10:
Cris Carter Richard Dent Shannon Sharpe Russ Grimm John Randle
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
As usual, WTF??? Cris Carter gets snubbed again, and Humphrey didn't make it? I'm glad to see that Derrick Thomas finally got his due, but Carter and Humphrey should both have gotten in, no question about it. Why go through the process of narrowing the senior candidates down to two and then not elect both? Arghhh!!!!!
If anyone wants my Humphrey 9, let me know.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I can not believe Carter & Humphrey did not make it. I am of course disappointed Dent did not make it, but I was not as surprised that he did not make it as Carter & Humphrey. WOW. Not a bad class just a littleshocked right now.
I am really shocked that Cris Carter didn't make the cut to the final 5 this year! I think there was a huge push for D Thomas and Wilson Jr, plus the committee couldn't overlook McDaniel's 12 Pro Bowl selections and B Smith and Woodson were sure fire 1st ballot selections.
Now, Sharpe and Carter get pushed to next year. The field will get very crowded in the next couple of years... Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Now, Sharpe and Carter get pushed to next year. The field will get very crowded in the next couple of years... Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected? >>
I sure as hell hope not. Carter was hands down the better, more feared player of the two. All he did was catch touchdowns.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Not really shocked by any of the selections, but also surprised that Carter and Humphrey were left off...
Next year, you have Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice eligible...Not to mention Time Brown and Aeneas Williams ( who I doubt will be first ballot guys)..I don't think Carter AND Sharpe will go with them, but most likely only one of those 2. I'd also have to think Richard Dent will be able to make it as the clear cut best DE on the ballot next year. John Randle making all the way to the final 10 bodes well for his future. He won't have to wait very long, maybe even next year.
Kuechenberg and McDaniel off the ballot will help Grimm, but still think he's a couple of years away..
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Great to see Derrick Thomas make it. Wish they would have voted a full class and added Carter, but overall not a bad class.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Great to see Derrick Thomas make it. Wish they would have voted a full class and added Carter, but overall not a bad class. >>
They did vote a full class of modern candidates. Maximum of 5 allowed. They did not however vote in both Senior candidates, as Humphrey did not get the 80% required vote.
I would have like to see Carter in as well, because next year, you will now have Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Andre Reed on the same ballot..My guess is that the other 3 will pale in shadow of Jerry Rice and not get in...Carter this year, McDaniel next year would have made more sense to me...
On the bright side, Derrick Thomas was well overdue, and should open it up for Richard Dent and/or John Randle to make it next year.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Great to see Derrick Thomas make it. Wish they would have voted a full class and added Carter, but overall not a bad class. >>
They did vote a full class of modern candidates. Maximum of 5 allowed. They did not however vote in both Senior candidates, as Humphrey did not get the 80% required vote.
I would have like to see Carter in as well, because next year, you will now have Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Andre Reed on the same ballot..My guess is that the other 3 will pale in shadow of Jerry Rice and not get in...Carter this year, McDaniel next year would have made more sense to me...
On the bright side, Derrick Thomas was well overdue, and should open it up for Richard Dent and/or John Randle to make it next year.
Jason >>
Your right Jason, I tried to make Bob Hayes a senior candidate. In a different forum the other day I tried to make Kuechenberg a Senior pick. But work with me a little, they are seniors.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i> Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected? >>
I think Andre Reed is holding the slot Art used to. I would expect Carter to make it sooner rather than later. After Jerry, Cris will be the most deserving guy on the board next year from the position.
I'm surprised that Cris didn't make it and I had hopes for Humphrey, (and Grimmy, once he made the 15-to-10 cut) but all in all, it's a fine group. The last two have added some much needed class to the list. Between Mr. Bruce and Rod speaking about their families, Derrick's mother being there and Bob's sister's sincerity, I was really moved.
One thing I really like about the football Hall is that it's voters take care of their front office visionaries. Wilson stands close to Lamar Hunt and Al Davis in making the AFL work and pushing the sport to new heights in the 60's. And I hope that Bob's election might just open the door for some old school WRs to get their due.
<< <i> And I hope that Bob's election might just open the door for some old school WRs to get their due. >>
In the Senior pool, it will help long term that #1, Hayes is out of the way and #2, (not to sound bad but..) he lowers the bar just a tad. But, IMO it will be a few years before another WR is selected as a Senior candidate.
The top WRs still out there as Seniors:
Otis Taylor Lavie Dilweg Drew Pearson Billy Wilson Mac Speedie
In my early estimation, the 2 Senior candidates next year I think will be an O-Lineman and a LB or DB. With so much talk about Dick LeBeau being deserving (which I agree), I could definitely see him being the defensive player to go with an O-Lineman. The top O-Lineman:
Jerry Kramer Mick Tingelhoff Al Wistert Bob Kuechenberg
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The campaign for Al "Ox" Wistert begins today!!! Everyone climb on board! >>
I'd sign a petition for Al to be elected! I would really love to see him elected while alive... I've written to him several times over the past year and he is a wonderful signer and loves to talk about playing at Michigan and for the Eagles. At 88 years old, his memory is better than mine and still in good health (from what he's written).
Let's hope the Hall doesn't wait until he had died to finally give "Ox" his due.
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
Anyone interested in a 1989 Pro Set Randall McDaniel PSA 10 for $60? The only graded one on eBay is a PSA 9 for $50.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Seriously, let's start a petition for Al "Ox" Wistert to be nominated as a senior candidate this coming year! Here is what he need:
1. Someone to write a background of his accomplishments in the NFL and compare him against other HOFers who played during his era 2. Create the online petition. Here is a website where you can create a petition. I can take care of this part if needed: Online Petition 3. Volunteers to circulate the petition. I would love to gather at least 10,000 signatures; 4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i> 4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Well, it isn;t the HOF we'd need to contact. Wistert has and will continue to be on the senior ballot automatically because he made the final 17 Senior semifinalists the last 2 years. So he is getting some support.
The guys I will contact are the voters on the Senior committee. I know 2 of them pretty well, good enough that they know me by name anyway...I do however have contact information for the majority of the other Senior committee members, and those I don't have I can get. I know they are switching out a guy or two as a couple of the committee members are retiring from the media and will be replaced on the voting committee. Not sure when the new senior members will be selected, but I am certain I can get that info along with contact information.
I would definitely do that for Wistert. I agree that he is long overdue, one of the few from that era who never got in...Let's set a date (and it needs to be before June when the Senior nomination ballots start going out to the committee members) when the petition will be finalized and I will push that info to the senior voters. Maybe late April?
We need to make sure though, that #1, we don't have 100 people e-mailing the senior voters. I can tell you that if we take it too far, it can and has in the past backfired on getting players selected. #2, keep the petition simple...If you want to add a short bio of accomplishments, that's fine but don't write it as if the senior committee voters have never heard of Wistert. Again, he's made the cutdown to 17 the last 2 years, they do quite a bit of research on the senior candidates and are aware of Wistert's candidacy.
Keep is short and simple and to the point. Wistert deserves to be in, one of the last greats from the 40s not yet enshrined. I think the biggest selling point we have is that he is 88 and still alive to make his HOF speech. I don't think there is any argument that he is deserving, the problem is that there are many others who are ALSO deserving. The hard part is pushing him in line in front of others who also have online petitions and the such. Getting Bob Hayes in was huge. As I posted before last years senior selections, he was going to be the focal point of the senior committee. Had he been voted down again this year, honestly they might have selected him AGAIN for the Class of 2010. I'm telling you there were at least 4 of the 9 senior voters who would not consider another senior candidate until Bullet Bob was elected. Now that he's in, those guys will need a new cause to champion.
If we can get even 1,000 signatures on that petition, I think that could really help the cause.
Let me know when you want me to start forwarding the link to the senior committee and I will certainly do so.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Never to early to start projecting the Class of 2010 BTW...lol
1. Jerry Rice 2. Emmitt Smith 3. Richard Dent 4. Shannon Sharpe 5. Russ Grimm
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I really think Mac Speedie should get in. >>
Well, as I stated above, the pro AND con is Bob Hayes getting elected this year. I think it may help Speedie's case in the future but for the short term (next 3-4 years) I don't see them taking another WR. IMO, the next WR I'd like to see go in is the old timer Lavie Dilweg. But I wouldn't be against Mac Speedie either if he were selected. He was as dominant as anyone from his era over a short period of time. Unfortunately his fall out with Paul Brown and subsequent move to the CFL which shortened his NFL career will hurt his chances, just as it did when he was a HOF finalist twice back in the early 70's.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> 4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Well, it isn;t the HOF we'd need to contact. Wistert has and will continue to be on the senior ballot automatically because he made the final 17 Senior semifinalists the last 2 years. So he is getting some support.
The guys I will contact are the voters on the Senior committee. I know 2 of them pretty well, good enough that they know me by name anyway...I do however have contact information for the majority of the other Senior committee members, and those I don't have I can get. I know they are switching out a guy or two as a couple of the committee members are retiring from the media and will be replaced on the voting committee. Not sure when the new senior members will be selected, but I am certain I can get that info along with contact information.
I would definitely do that for Wistert. I agree that he is long overdue, one of the few from that era who never got in...Let's set a date (and it needs to be before June when the Senior nomination ballots start going out to the committee members) when the petition will be finalized and I will push that info to the senior voters. Maybe late April?
We need to make sure though, that #1, we don't have 100 people e-mailing the senior voters. I can tell you that if we take it too far, it can and has in the past backfired on getting players selected. #2, keep the petition simple...If you want to add a short bio of accomplishments, that's fine but don't write it as if the senior committee voters have never heard of Wistert. Again, he's made the cutdown to 17 the last 2 years, they do quite a bit of research on the senior candidates and are aware of Wistert's candidacy.
Keep is short and simple and to the point. Wistert deserves to be in, one of the last greats from the 40s not yet enshrined. I think the biggest selling point we have is that he is 88 and still alive to make his HOF speech. I don't think there is any argument that he is deserving, the problem is that there are many others who are ALSO deserving. The hard part is pushing him in line in front of others who also have online petitions and the such. Getting Bob Hayes in was huge. As I posted before last years senior selections, he was going to be the focal point of the senior committee. Had he been voted down again this year, honestly they might have selected him AGAIN for the Class of 2010. I'm telling you there were at least 4 of the 9 senior voters who would not consider another senior candidate until Bullet Bob was elected. Now that he's in, those guys will need a new cause to champion.
If we can get even 1,000 signatures on that petition, I think that could really help the cause.
Let me know when you want me to start forwarding the link to the senior committee and I will certainly do so.
Jason >>
Jason,
Thanks for your input. I'm in the process of creating a petition, however I need a short bio for Al. Do you have something tha I can copy and paste, or alternatively, could you draft something that I could include?
Rgs,
Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!
<< <i>Never to early to start projecting the Class of 2010 BTW...lol
1. Jerry Rice 2. Emmitt Smith 3. Richard Dent 4. Shannon Sharpe 5. Russ Grimm
Jason >>
I agree with this list. Of course I THINK Cris Carter should go in ahead of all but Rice and Emmitt, but because the HOF voters have these asenine unwritten rules about voting in multiple players from the same position, I think Carter will have to wait yet again. It's amazingly unfair, and stupid, if you ask me.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Thanks for your input. I'm in the process of creating a petition, however I need a short bio for Al. Do you have something tha I can copy and paste, or alternatively, could you draft something that I could include?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I think Carter will have to wait yet again. It's amazingly unfair, and stupid, if you ask me. >>
I agree...Which is why I thought he was 99.999% lock for this year. Carter is more than deserving. With Rice and Tim Brown jumping into the fray next year, why not get Carter in this year and have say McDaniel be the easy O-Line choice for next year? Now this sets all the WRs (except Rice) back a few years...Not only will Carter not get in 2010, he may not even make it in 2011 with so many first ballot type guys coming up in that class..And until he gets in, Tim Brown and/or Andre Reed ain't gettin in...Reed and Brown could truly be looking at long, Art Monk/Lynn Swann type waits...I can see both waiting 10+ years to get elected at this point.
But, it is what it is..Carter must have really wronged more than a couple of the voters somewhere along the line...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Despite the outcome of this game I think Warner is in. Look at his stats in SB's. Not to mention if they would have won he probably would have been the MVP. 1-2 in the SB with the two loss by a combined 7 points. All lost by his defense not being able to make stop at the end of the game to hold on the win. He has the top 3 passing games in SB history.
Packers Fan for Life Collecting: Brett Favre Master Set Favre Ticket Stubs Favre TD Reciever Autos Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Hey Jason. Give us the break down on Jack Tatum. Wikipedia says 5 all-pros? I'm guessing they weren't all AP first team? >>
As usual, Wikipedia inaccuracy...
Tatum was a 3-time Pro Bowler and was never a First team AP All-Pro. In fact, was only a 2nd team AP All-Pro 1-time (1974)....
Not a bad player though, one of the hardest hitters of all-time...But certainly does not belong anywhere near the HOF...To say his coverage skills were average is probably being very generous...lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Hey Jason. Give us the break down on Jack Tatum. Wikipedia says 5 all-pros? I'm guessing they weren't all AP first team? >>
As usual, Wikipedia inaccuracy...
Tatum was a 3-time Pro Bowler and was never a First team AP All-Pro. In fact, was only a 2nd team AP All-Pro 1-time (1974)....
Not a bad player though, one of the hardest hitters of all-time...But certainly does not belong anywhere near the HOF...To say his coverage skills were average is probably being very generous...lol
Jason >>
Thanks! I thought it was odd if truly he had made only 3 pro bowls but yet was all-pro 5 times.
<< <i>I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece. >>
J:
Started up a website last night. An initial bio is on the homepage. I've added the petition link on a separate page. I will probably add it to the page via framing later this evening. Anyonw with images, photos, high graded scans of cards or any other interesting tidbits on Al Wistert, please feel free to send them along...
<< <i>I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece. >>
J:
Started up a website last night. An initial bio is on the homepage. I've added the petition link on a separate page. I will probably add it to the page via framing later this evening. Anyonw with images, photos, high graded scans of cards or any other interesting tidbits on Al Wistert, please feel free to send them along...
Great job! I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9.
To steal a frequently used military phrase " Hope for the best, but expect the worst"..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
I'm not about to expect the worst... >>
Gotcha...Just be careful not to push too hard. The senior committee has been known to take exception to fans trying to tell them how to do their jobs. They already interview former players, although I doubt anything you can get in that regard would hurt his chances. But if this turns into something that they feel is trying to bully them into making a selection, it will end up making them turn against selecting him.
Of course, you are free to do whatever you please on it, just giving you my opinion based on things that have transpired in the past. Put it this way, none of the senior candidates selected the last 5 years at least were selected because of petitions or fan push. There are multiple senior candidates who have a huge fan following trying to help them to the HOF. Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey did not...Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas certainly did not...Charlie Sanders and Gene Hickerson were not...John Madden and Rayfield Wright were not...I think you get where I am coming from.
Just be cautious, the voters are all media guys and they tend to be very protective of their "territory". There's a fine line between raising awareness for Wistert's candidacy and calling the committee idiots for never selecting him before...lol
Best of luck, and let me know if you need any assistance along the way. Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9. >>
Next time you talk to him, bend his ear about Chris Hanburger.
And I sincerely hope you're right about Russ Grimm next year.
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
I'm not about to expect the worst... >>
Gotcha...Just be careful not to push too hard. The senior committee has been known to take exception to fans trying to tell them how to do their jobs. They already interview former players, although I doubt anything you can get in that regard would hurt his chances. But if this turns into something that they feel is trying to bully them into making a selection, it will end up making them turn against selecting him.
Of course, you are free to do whatever you please on it, just giving you my opinion based on things that have transpired in the past. Put it this way, none of the senior candidates selected the last 5 years at least were selected because of petitions or fan push. There are multiple senior candidates who have a huge fan following trying to help them to the HOF. Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey did not...Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas certainly did not...Charlie Sanders and Gene Hickerson were not...John Madden and Rayfield Wright were not...I think you get where I am coming from.
Just be cautious, the voters are all media guys and they tend to be very protective of their "territory". There's a fine line between raising awareness for Wistert's candidacy and calling the committee idiots for never selecting him before...lol
Best of luck, and let me know if you need any assistance along the way. Jason >>
Jason:
Most of the bantar is to continue to keep the motivation up. My "presentation" will be subtle, but well documented and supported. I've got a few more months to get it all together and keeping the energy up will keep me motivated to get all of the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
Thanks for the advise (and your assitance), though. It is greatly appreciated!
Most of the bantar is to continue to keep the motivation up. My "presentation" will be subtle, but well documented and supported. I've got a few more months to get it all together and keeping the energy up will keep me motivated to get all of the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
Thanks for the advise (and your assitance), though. It is greatly appreciated! >>
Scott, that sounds excellent. Can't wait to see the final product.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9. >>
Next time you talk to him, bend his ear about Chris Hanburger.
And I sincerely hope you're right about Russ Grimm next year. >>
Hanburger is one of my favorite LBs from the era, and I've mentioned him many times. I don't know why the senior committee isn't high on him. I think it mainly has to do with how OLB's were viewed during the late 60's-early 70's...How many other OLB's from his time frame are in the HOF? TWO..Bobby Bell and Dave Wilcox..And Wilcox was a Senior committee selection...How many other HOF worthy ones are NOT in other than Hanburger? Dave Robinson, Chuck Howley, Andy Russell, Maxie Baughan...
Its the same thing that has happened to the Safety position during the 80's-90's..Just became a devalued position during the era, with most of the "better" athletes/players being used at MLB back then or in case of the 80's/90's CB...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The past 6 years, the HOF committee has used the Semifinalist method of voting. Where they reduce the initial list to 25, then 15 finalists, then 10 and then 5 finalists.
Over those last 6 years, we've had 32 new HOFers...Many of the HOFers have been first ballot guys (11 of them), senior candidates (9 of those), and 12 who were on the ballot the previous year.
Here is how those 12 fared in the year PRIOR to their election..
1- Made the final cut, but did not get the 80% (Harry Carson) 7- Made the next to last cut to 10, but missed the final cut 1- Was a finalist, but did not make the cut to 10 (Zimmerman) 1- Was a semifinalist but was not a finalist (Roger Wehrli in his last year on the ballot) 1- Was not even a semifinalist the year prior (Ralph Wilson) 1- Was not a finalist the year prior, there were no semifinalist (Carl Eller in his last year on the ballot)
In the 6 years prior to that, the only records I have is the list of actual 15 finalists. Subtracting the first ballot guys and senior selections:
15 were finalist the year prior 2 were not finalist the year prior (Elvin Bethea and Joe DeLamielleure- Class of 2003)
What does this say? If you aren't an owner/contributor, in the last year of eligibilty, a first ballot HOFer or a senior selection...You probably aren't making the HOF unless you were at at least a finalist...
Making next year's non-first ballot or senior options:
Cris Carter Richard Dent Shannon Sharpe Russ Grimm John Randle Paul Tagliabue Dermontti Dawson Andre Reed Cortez Kennedy
Super-slim chance of anyone else not on their first ballot (Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Aeneas Williams, Tim Brown) or a senior committee selection.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
For 6 hour, 45 minutes in Tampa on Saturday, we listened, debated and deliberated.
At the end, you feel happy for the people who were voted into Pro Football Hall of Fame, but also hamstrung because the Class of 2009 couldn't be larger. Trimming the list of 15 modern-era finalists to 10 and then five left everyone exasperated because it meant leaving out players who belong in the Hall.
In my case, there also were feelings of inadequacy, because my presentation for Cortez Kennedy didn't even get the Seahawks' former Pro Bowl defensive tackle into the round of 10. But there was enough support "in the room" – as the process has been dubbed – to make me believe Tez will make it, if not next year then the year after that.
Rules prohibit members of the 44-person selection committee from revealing exactly what goes on "in the room" – and especially what is said about the candidates because the promise of confidentially is what allows truly open debate.
But he's an insider's look, within the rules, at what happened:
Each candidate is presented by a media member from the city where the contender spent the bulk of his NFL career, as the committee is comprise of one representative from each NFL city, 11 at-large selectors and the president of the Pro Football Writers of America.
First up were the senior candidates – former Cowboys wide receiver Bob Hayes and ex-Falcons/Eagles defensive end Claude Humphrey. After their presentations, they are voted on separately from the 15 modern-era candidates. It's a simple "yes" or "no" vote, with 80 percent "yes" needed for inclusion in the class.
I voted for Hayes, who made it; but not for Humphrey, who didn't.
Then, it was on to the 13 modern-era players and two contributors – Bills owner Ralph Wilson and former commissioners Paul Tagliabue.
In the two years I've been on the committee, the heaviest – and most-heated – debate has involved Tagliabue. It has become clear that the pro-Tags selectors are not going to convince his detractors that he should be in the Hall, and vice versa. I'm not sure how to rectify the situation, but these meetings will continue to be six-plus hours as long as this remains the case.
Sports Illustrated's Peter King has made Tagliabue's presentation the past three years, and King admits frustration this morning in his "Monday Morning Quarterback" feature on SI.com.
Mark Gaughan of the Buffalo News and Mark Craig of the Minneapolis Star Tribune, who was subbing for Sid Hartman, were busy – as each made three presentations.
Gaughan was very convincing in support of Wilson, and assisted by a follow-up presentation by Vic Carucci, a long-time beat writer for the Bills who now works for NFL.com and was subbing for Mike Chappell of the Indianapolis Star.
It also helped when someone else pointed out that if you think Wilson belongs in the Hall, vote for him now rather than later because Wilson is 90. It worked for me, and obviously others.
Once the 15 modern-era presentations were completed, the finalists were trimmed to a group of 10.
My list: WR Cris Carter, C Dermontti Dawson, Kennedy, OG Randall McDaniel, DT John Randle, TE Shannon Sharpe, DE Bruce Smith, LB Derrick Thomas, Wilson and DB Rod Woodson.
The official list: Carter, DE Richard Dent, OG Russ Grimm, McDaniel, Randle, Sharpe, Smith, Thomas, Wilson and Woodson.
Then, another round of discussion on the remaining 10, before the list was trimmed to five. This was very difficult, because Smith and Woodson were slam-dunk choices in their first year of eligibility. That left only three spots, with more than three worthy candidates.
My final five: McDaniel, Sharpe, Smith, Wilson and Woodson.
The official final five: McDaniel, Smith, Thomas, Wilson, Woodson.
"Losing" Tez after the first round allowed me to add another player to my list – McDaniel. Being convinced that Wilson was Hall worthy, and this was the year to do it, cost me one – Sharpe.
But even that wasn't the end of it. Each of the final five was voted on again, one by one. Each needed the same 80-percent "yes" votes to become a member of the Class of '09. I voted "yes" for each candidate.
The selectors then filed into a larger room down the hall, where the announcements were made on live TV – or at least the NFL Network. The selectors found out who "made it" at the same time as everyone else in the room.
One of the highlights this year was watching Smith, still a striking figure of a man, tear up and then offered, "I cry not because I'm less of a man. I cry because I am a man."
Another came when Lucille Hester, sister of the late Hayes, read a letter her brother had left – just in case – before he died in 2002: "I would like to thank everyone who supported me to get into the NFL Hall of Fame – the Dallas Cowboy organization, all my teammates, and everyone who played for the Cowboys. Thanks to the committee who voted for me, and also for the ones who might not have. Tell all my teammates I love them. And just thank everyone in the whole world."
The clincher, however, was seeing the imposing Smith, the player, and the frail Wilson, the owner, embrace.
Offered Wilson, "I don't know what to say. I know I'm supposed to say something; you're waiting for me to say something."
That pretty much said it all, even after the almost seven-hour ordeal that led to Wilson's inclusion in the Class of '09 – and him not being able to find the words to match the honor.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
A factor in Derrick Thomas’ election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame was turnover on the 44-member board of selectors, said Bob Gretz, Kansas City’s representative on the committee.
Three committee members, who Gretz knew did not previously vote for Thomas, were replaced because of retirement and illness. Entry into the hall is an 80-percent vote, so nine thumbs down keeps the door closed.
“There were no guarantees the three that replace them voted for (Thomas), but they were going to be more open-minded than the three who made it very plain that they in no way saw him as a Hall of Famer,” Gretz said. “I said going in, like so many things in life, it’s the timing.”
This time was right, and Thomas’ Hall status shouldn’t be diminished because he didn’t make it in until his fifth try. As Gretz points out, waiting on the Hall call has been more the norm for Chiefs.
Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier waited four years from the time they became eligible. Len Dawson waited seven years, and Buck Buchanan didn’t make it until his 10th year of eligibility.
The quickest Hall entry for a player who spent most of his career with the Chiefs: kicker Jan Stenerud, who wrapped up his career in Green Bay in 1985 and, after the five-year waiting period, was elected in 1991.
Thomas’ announcement Saturday filled Gretz’s telephone with messages from the likes of Bill Cowher, Thomas’ first position coach and coordinator, and former head coach Marty Schottenheimer, who was “emotional and teary, as you’d expect,” Gretz said.
After stating Thomas’ case for five years, Gretz also took a measure of personal satisfaction from the decision.
“I’m just glad a guy who I got to see play for the Chiefs, and who I believed was a Hall of Famer, made it,” Gretz said.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
A member of out Future HOF Sr. set died last week....
Former 49ers receiver Billy Wilson dies at 81 The Associated PressPublished: January 28, 2009
SAN FRANCISCO: Former San Francisco 49ers receiver Billy Wilson, a six-time Pro Bowler who starred for the team in the 1950s, died Tuesday. He was 81.
Wilson died peacefully in the presence of his family in Southern California after a battle with cancer, the team said.
Wilson led the NFL in receptions three times during his career from 1951-60, retiring with 407 catches for 5,902 yards and 49 touchdowns. Wilson is fourth all-time for San Francisco in TD catches, fifth in yards receiving and sixth in receptions.
"He was one of the fiercest competitors I ever played with," said Wilson's former quarterback, Y.A. Tittle. "He was our No. 1 receiver. Whenever we needed a big catch, I went to him, because I knew he would make the play."
Wilson, who played his college ball at San Jose State, led the NFL with 60 catches in 1954, 60 receptions in 1956 and 52 in 1957, when he was a first-team selection to the AP All-Pro team.
"I remember a play Billy made when he caught a pass, leaped straight up into the air over myself and two other defenders and ran it in for a touchdown," said Hall of Fame coach Don Shula, who was also a defensive back in the NFL in the 1950s.
"It was a great play and he truly was a great receiver. He is one of the few players of another era that would excel today."
Wilson worked for the Niners after his playing career as an assistant coach and scout.
Lost in the pre- and post-Super Bowl hoop-de-blah was Saturday's announcement of the latest Pro Football Hall of Fame class, and its lack of Cris Carter.
Oh, a few people have wondered about it, but not that many, which leads us to the following conclusions:
• One, the nation does not agonize over Carter's induction.
• Two, the selectors are wary of anyone who has big numbers without big deeds behind them.
• Three, the backlog of great players still not in the Hall is fairly daunting for any voter.
• And four, the nation might finally understand that if you are not a slam-dunk selection like Joe Montana or Walter Payton, you have to wait, pure and simple.
That last one -- about the nation's understanding -- we frankly doubt, but we thought we'd throw it out there as a gesture of generosity.
In other words, most of the players proclaimed as mortal locks for the Hall of Fame actually aren't mortal locks at all, and the sooner that is made clear, the better.
And there is no better way to point this out than to use Cris Carter.
His numbers are gaudy -- he is third in history in receptions and second in touchdowns -- but he falls into the loose category of "compiler," someone who has big numbers and nothing more. And in the room, there is a clear and historical resistance to "compilers" unless they have a well-developed postseason/Super Bowl/extraordinary moments résumé to go with it.
Carter doesn't. His postseason history (14 games, eight TDs, one 100-yard game, no Super Bowls) isn't miserable, but it has no shining moments that lasted long in the memory, and that works against him in a room in which nine votes keeps you out.
That's right, nine. There are only 44 selectors in the room, and unless you are truly a Paytonesque stone lock, there are typically at least nine folks who want both numbers and context, and won't jump unless they get it. Some even define it as "Can you write the history of pro football without mentioning his name?"
You can probably do that without getting to Cris Carter, but that's an argument that depends on the author. We do not know if Sid Hartman, the longtime Minneapolis columnist who would have made the case for Carter, did a great job or not. We suspect, given history, that it wouldn't have mattered much either way.
And that's the important point here -- that it is hard to clear a bar like the history-of-football bar, which is why, after you take out the 58 players (all no-brainers) who were elected in their first year of eligibility, the average wait for a player is eight years. Eight.
A particularly egregious example is offensive tackle Bob Brown, who was by most analyses the dominant offensive lineman of the '60s. He had to wait 26 years to get in.
Another is Vince Lombardi. Yes, that Vince Lombardi. He wasn't a finalist in his first two years on the ballot. Now if you can make a case for Cris Carter being more important to pro football than Vince Lombardi, have at it, and best of luck to you.
But you're not trying that because you know you can't. And if Vince Lombardi had to wait ... well, do you see the problem now?
Bob Hayes had to wait. Art Monk had to wait. Tim Brown is going to have to wait. You can shriek about it until you are blue in the mouth, but that's the First Law of the Hall -- if your presenter cannot stand up in the room and just say the name without further comment, your guy isn't a slam-dunk, and non-slam-dunks wait. Sometimes a long time. Sometimes forever.
If the selectors did a better job of explaining this, that understanding would come easier, even in this I-only-know-what-I-saw-with-my-own-eyes culture. But the selectors don't get to talk about what happened in the room because they don't want to get pounded by the public the way Corky Simpson got smoked for omitting Rickey Henderson from his Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.
We're not defending that omission, but he took a frightful Internet beating while the other 27 people who also left Henderson off their ballots stayed safe and anonymous. Not enough voters have yet pushed to break the sequestration rules, thus pro football's sheetrock wall stays up, and the voters don't have to show their work.
Too bad, too, because Cris Carter not getting in right away is easy to understand. There are too many strong candidates still in front of him, and he is not a slam-dunk on his own, no matter what you might believe in his defense. He will wait, because that's how the system works. There is nothing more sinister to it than that.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Nice article, Jason. Any head's-up on what the set weighting will be for the Bob Hayes? I have all the others except the Bruce Smith, which is about as much of a stone-cold lock for a "1" set weighting as was his getting in this past weekend.
Although I am still utterly devestated by the Cards' loss, I did have a nice pickup this weekend at the card show at NFL Experience, a replica HOF helmet with 20 sigs, including Lavelli, Dudley, Pihos, Kelly, Trippi, and Lenny Moore.....$200. The live Hunt auction was pretty cool, a lot of the memorabilia was on display, including a Sayers game-worn jersey that went for $10k. Pretty cool overall, just suck-ass ending to the game. Holmes didn't even get both feet down, his right landed on top of his left...what a joke. But I'm not bitter.....
Hayes will be a 2.0 grade weight on the HOF RC set. All the other new additions 1.0. The Grade Weights are formulated strictly by SMR in PSA 8. Tried using actual values from VCP last year to update, but got shot down.
I recently sent the annual weight updates for the set (along with many of the other key card sets) and used the SMR pricing as directed, which actually changed quite a bit this year on many of the cards.
PSA already updated the smaller key card set weightings, the HOF sets will probably be updated within a week or 2.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Comments
2008:
Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Bob Kuechenberg
Randall McDaniel
Derrick Thomas
2007:
Fred Dean
Richard Dent
Art Monk
Derrick Thomas
Andre Tippett
Prior to 2007, only 8 modern candidates made it to the final cut, with 4 going to the final vote needing 80% for election.
2006:
Claude Humphrey
Michael Irvin
Bob Kuechenberg
Thurman Thomas
2005:
L.C. Greenwood
Russ Grimm
Art Monk
Derrick Thomas
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Bob Hayes
Ralph Wilson
Randall McDaniel
Derrick Thomas
Made the cutdown to the final 10:
Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Russ Grimm
John Randle
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
If anyone wants my Humphrey 9, let me know.
WOW. Not a bad class just a littleshocked right now.
Now, Sharpe and Carter get pushed to next year. The field will get very crowded in the next couple of years... Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Now, Sharpe and Carter get pushed to next year. The field will get very crowded in the next couple of years... Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected? >>
I sure as hell hope not. Carter was hands down the better, more feared player of the two. All he did was catch touchdowns.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Next year, you have Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice eligible...Not to mention Time Brown and Aeneas Williams ( who I doubt will be first ballot guys)..I don't think Carter AND Sharpe will go with them, but most likely only one of those 2. I'd also have to think Richard Dent will be able to make it as the clear cut best DE on the ballot next year. John Randle making all the way to the final 10 bodes well for his future. He won't have to wait very long, maybe even next year.
Kuechenberg and McDaniel off the ballot will help Grimm, but still think he's a couple of years away..
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
acquired a copy of the 1954 iowa-purdue football game and would like to send lenny a copy of the game.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Great to see Derrick Thomas make it. Wish they would have voted a full class and added Carter, but overall not a bad class. >>
They did vote a full class of modern candidates. Maximum of 5 allowed. They did not however vote in both Senior candidates, as Humphrey did not get the 80% required vote.
I would have like to see Carter in as well, because next year, you will now have Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Andre Reed on the same ballot..My guess is that the other 3 will pale in shadow of Jerry Rice and not get in...Carter this year, McDaniel next year would have made more sense to me...
On the bright side, Derrick Thomas was well overdue, and should open it up for Richard Dent and/or John Randle to make it next year.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Great to see Derrick Thomas make it. Wish they would have voted a full class and added Carter, but overall not a bad class. >>
They did vote a full class of modern candidates. Maximum of 5 allowed. They did not however vote in both Senior candidates, as Humphrey did not get the 80% required vote.
I would have like to see Carter in as well, because next year, you will now have Jerry Rice, Cris Carter, Tim Brown and Andre Reed on the same ballot..My guess is that the other 3 will pale in shadow of Jerry Rice and not get in...Carter this year, McDaniel next year would have made more sense to me...
On the bright side, Derrick Thomas was well overdue, and should open it up for Richard Dent and/or John Randle to make it next year.
Jason >>
Your right Jason, I tried to make Bob Hayes a senior candidate. In a different forum the other day I tried to make Kuechenberg a Senior pick. But work with me a little, they are seniors.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i> Could Carter follow in the footsteps of Art Monk and have to wait 8 to 10 years to be elected? >>
I think Andre Reed is holding the slot Art used to. I would expect Carter to make it sooner rather than later. After Jerry, Cris will be the most deserving guy on the board next year from the position.
I'm surprised that Cris didn't make it and I had hopes for Humphrey, (and Grimmy, once he made the 15-to-10 cut) but all in all, it's a fine group. The last two have added some much needed class to the list. Between Mr. Bruce and Rod speaking about their families, Derrick's mother being there and Bob's sister's sincerity, I was really moved.
One thing I really like about the football Hall is that it's voters take care of their front office visionaries. Wilson stands close to Lamar Hunt and Al Davis in making the AFL work and pushing the sport to new heights in the 60's. And I hope that Bob's election might just open the door for some old school WRs to get their due.
<< <i> And I hope that Bob's election might just open the door for some old school WRs to get their due. >>
In the Senior pool, it will help long term that #1, Hayes is out of the way and #2, (not to sound bad but..) he lowers the bar just a tad. But, IMO it will be a few years before another WR is selected as a Senior candidate.
The top WRs still out there as Seniors:
Otis Taylor
Lavie Dilweg
Drew Pearson
Billy Wilson
Mac Speedie
In my early estimation, the 2 Senior candidates next year I think will be an O-Lineman and a LB or DB. With so much talk about Dick LeBeau being deserving (which I agree), I could definitely see him being the defensive player to go with an O-Lineman. The top O-Lineman:
Jerry Kramer
Mick Tingelhoff
Al Wistert
Bob Kuechenberg
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>The campaign for Al "Ox" Wistert begins today!!! Everyone climb on board! >>
I'd sign a petition for Al to be elected! I would really love to see him elected while alive... I've written to him several times over the past year and he is a wonderful signer and loves to talk about playing at Michigan and for the Eagles. At 88 years old, his memory is better than mine and still in good health (from what he's written).
Let's hope the Hall doesn't wait until he had died to finally give "Ox" his due.
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
1. Someone to write a background of his accomplishments in the NFL and compare him against other HOFers who played during his era
2. Create the online petition. Here is a website where you can create a petition. I can take care of this part if needed:
Online Petition
3. Volunteers to circulate the petition. I would love to gather at least 10,000 signatures;
4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>lookin for current address for len dawson
acquired a copy of the 1954 iowa-purdue football game and would like to send lenny a copy of the game. >>
The address for Len Dawson that is listed in the Meiselman guide is:
Len Dawson
4950 Central St., Apt 606
Kansas City, MO 64112
Hope that helps!
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Well, it isn;t the HOF we'd need to contact. Wistert has and will continue to be on the senior ballot automatically because he made the final 17 Senior semifinalists the last 2 years. So he is getting some support.
The guys I will contact are the voters on the Senior committee. I know 2 of them pretty well, good enough that they know me by name anyway...I do however have contact information for the majority of the other Senior committee members, and those I don't have I can get. I know they are switching out a guy or two as a couple of the committee members are retiring from the media and will be replaced on the voting committee. Not sure when the new senior members will be selected, but I am certain I can get that info along with contact information.
I would definitely do that for Wistert. I agree that he is long overdue, one of the few from that era who never got in...Let's set a date (and it needs to be before June when the Senior nomination ballots start going out to the committee members) when the petition will be finalized and I will push that info to the senior voters. Maybe late April?
We need to make sure though, that #1, we don't have 100 people e-mailing the senior voters. I can tell you that if we take it too far, it can and has in the past backfired on getting players selected. #2, keep the petition simple...If you want to add a short bio of accomplishments, that's fine but don't write it as if the senior committee voters have never heard of Wistert. Again, he's made the cutdown to 17 the last 2 years, they do quite a bit of research on the senior candidates and are aware of Wistert's candidacy.
Keep is short and simple and to the point. Wistert deserves to be in, one of the last greats from the 40s not yet enshrined. I think the biggest selling point we have is that he is 88 and still alive to make his HOF speech. I don't think there is any argument that he is deserving, the problem is that there are many others who are ALSO deserving. The hard part is pushing him in line in front of others who also have online petitions and the such. Getting Bob Hayes in was huge. As I posted before last years senior selections, he was going to be the focal point of the senior committee. Had he been voted down again this year, honestly they might have selected him AGAIN for the Class of 2010. I'm telling you there were at least 4 of the 9 senior voters who would not consider another senior candidate until Bullet Bob was elected. Now that he's in, those guys will need a new cause to champion.
If we can get even 1,000 signatures on that petition, I think that could really help the cause.
Let me know when you want me to start forwarding the link to the senior committee and I will certainly do so.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
1. Jerry Rice
2. Emmitt Smith
3. Richard Dent
4. Shannon Sharpe
5. Russ Grimm
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I really think Mac Speedie should get in. >>
Well, as I stated above, the pro AND con is Bob Hayes getting elected this year. I think it may help Speedie's case in the future but for the short term (next 3-4 years) I don't see them taking another WR. IMO, the next WR I'd like to see go in is the old timer Lavie Dilweg. But I wouldn't be against Mac Speedie either if he were selected. He was as dominant as anyone from his era over a short period of time. Unfortunately his fall out with Paul Brown and subsequent move to the CFL which shortened his NFL career will hurt his chances, just as it did when he was a HOF finalist twice back in the early 70's.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
4. Someone to contact the HOF (likely Jason) to provide the petition and background/argument for Al Wistert to be inducted.
Thoughts?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
Well, it isn;t the HOF we'd need to contact. Wistert has and will continue to be on the senior ballot automatically because he made the final 17 Senior semifinalists the last 2 years. So he is getting some support.
The guys I will contact are the voters on the Senior committee. I know 2 of them pretty well, good enough that they know me by name anyway...I do however have contact information for the majority of the other Senior committee members, and those I don't have I can get. I know they are switching out a guy or two as a couple of the committee members are retiring from the media and will be replaced on the voting committee. Not sure when the new senior members will be selected, but I am certain I can get that info along with contact information.
I would definitely do that for Wistert. I agree that he is long overdue, one of the few from that era who never got in...Let's set a date (and it needs to be before June when the Senior nomination ballots start going out to the committee members) when the petition will be finalized and I will push that info to the senior voters. Maybe late April?
We need to make sure though, that #1, we don't have 100 people e-mailing the senior voters. I can tell you that if we take it too far, it can and has in the past backfired on getting players selected. #2, keep the petition simple...If you want to add a short bio of accomplishments, that's fine but don't write it as if the senior committee voters have never heard of Wistert. Again, he's made the cutdown to 17 the last 2 years, they do quite a bit of research on the senior candidates and are aware of Wistert's candidacy.
Keep is short and simple and to the point. Wistert deserves to be in, one of the last greats from the 40s not yet enshrined. I think the biggest selling point we have is that he is 88 and still alive to make his HOF speech. I don't think there is any argument that he is deserving, the problem is that there are many others who are ALSO deserving. The hard part is pushing him in line in front of others who also have online petitions and the such. Getting Bob Hayes in was huge. As I posted before last years senior selections, he was going to be the focal point of the senior committee. Had he been voted down again this year, honestly they might have selected him AGAIN for the Class of 2010. I'm telling you there were at least 4 of the 9 senior voters who would not consider another senior candidate until Bullet Bob was elected. Now that he's in, those guys will need a new cause to champion.
If we can get even 1,000 signatures on that petition, I think that could really help the cause.
Let me know when you want me to start forwarding the link to the senior committee and I will certainly do so.
Jason >>
Jason,
Thanks for your input. I'm in the process of creating a petition, however I need a short bio for Al. Do you have something tha I can copy and paste, or alternatively, could you draft something that I could include?
Rgs,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>Never to early to start projecting the Class of 2010 BTW...lol
1. Jerry Rice
2. Emmitt Smith
3. Richard Dent
4. Shannon Sharpe
5. Russ Grimm
Jason >>
I agree with this list. Of course I THINK Cris Carter should go in ahead of all but Rice and Emmitt, but because the HOF voters have these asenine unwritten rules about voting in multiple players from the same position, I think Carter will have to wait yet again. It's amazingly unfair, and stupid, if you ask me.
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
Jason,
Thanks for your input. I'm in the process of creating a petition, however I need a short bio for Al. Do you have something tha I can copy and paste, or alternatively, could you draft something that I could include?
Rgs,
Greg M. >>
I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
I think Carter will have to wait yet again. It's amazingly unfair, and stupid, if you ask me. >>
I agree...Which is why I thought he was 99.999% lock for this year. Carter is more than deserving. With Rice and Tim Brown jumping into the fray next year, why not get Carter in this year and have say McDaniel be the easy O-Line choice for next year? Now this sets all the WRs (except Rice) back a few years...Not only will Carter not get in 2010, he may not even make it in 2011 with so many first ballot type guys coming up in that class..And until he gets in, Tim Brown and/or Andre Reed ain't gettin in...Reed and Brown could truly be looking at long, Art Monk/Lynn Swann type waits...I can see both waiting 10+ years to get elected at this point.
But, it is what it is..Carter must have really wronged more than a couple of the voters somewhere along the line...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
<< <i>Hey Jason. Give us the break down on Jack Tatum. Wikipedia says 5 all-pros? I'm guessing they weren't all AP first team? >>
As usual, Wikipedia inaccuracy...
Tatum was a 3-time Pro Bowler and was never a First team AP All-Pro. In fact, was only a 2nd team AP All-Pro 1-time (1974)....
Not a bad player though, one of the hardest hitters of all-time...But certainly does not belong anywhere near the HOF...To say his coverage skills were average is probably being very generous...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hey Jason. Give us the break down on Jack Tatum. Wikipedia says 5 all-pros? I'm guessing they weren't all AP first team? >>
As usual, Wikipedia inaccuracy...
Tatum was a 3-time Pro Bowler and was never a First team AP All-Pro. In fact, was only a 2nd team AP All-Pro 1-time (1974)....
Not a bad player though, one of the hardest hitters of all-time...But certainly does not belong anywhere near the HOF...To say his coverage skills were average is probably being very generous...lol
Jason >>
Thanks! I thought it was odd if truly he had made only 3 pro bowls but yet was all-pro 5 times.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece. >>
J:
Started up a website last night. An initial bio is on the homepage. I've added the petition link on a separate page. I will probably add it to the page via framing later this evening. Anyonw with images, photos, high graded scans of cards or any other interesting tidbits on Al Wistert, please feel free to send them along...
www.alwistert.com
<< <i>
<< <i>I could, but it would seem that Scott (otwcards) is the Wistert expert and the champion of his cause, so he may be better suited and/or have more info than myself on it. I think we should allow Scott to write his bio piece. >>
J:
Started up a website last night. An initial bio is on the homepage. I've added the petition link on a separate page. I will probably add it to the page via framing later this evening. Anyonw with images, photos, high graded scans of cards or any other interesting tidbits on Al Wistert, please feel free to send them along...
www.alwistert.com >>
Scott,
Great job! I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9.
To steal a frequently used military phrase " Hope for the best, but expect the worst"..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
I'm not about to expect the worst...
<< <i>Jason:
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
I'm not about to expect the worst...
Gotcha...Just be careful not to push too hard. The senior committee has been known to take exception to fans trying to tell them how to do their jobs. They already interview former players, although I doubt anything you can get in that regard would hurt his chances. But if this turns into something that they feel is trying to bully them into making a selection, it will end up making them turn against selecting him.
Of course, you are free to do whatever you please on it, just giving you my opinion based on things that have transpired in the past. Put it this way, none of the senior candidates selected the last 5 years at least were selected because of petitions or fan push. There are multiple senior candidates who have a huge fan following trying to help them to the HOF. Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey did not...Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas certainly did not...Charlie Sanders and Gene Hickerson were not...John Madden and Rayfield Wright were not...I think you get where I am coming from.
Just be cautious, the voters are all media guys and they tend to be very protective of their "territory". There's a fine line between raising awareness for Wistert's candidacy and calling the committee idiots for never selecting him before...lol
Best of luck, and let me know if you need any assistance along the way.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9. >>
Next time you talk to him, bend his ear about Chris Hanburger.
And I sincerely hope you're right about Russ Grimm next year.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jason:
The game plan is to prepare a fully orchestrated presentation complete with letters from several HOFers of the era. I've already received two and have solicitations out to several others. The petition will be a great help, especially if we can get the sig totals over 1000.
I am also working with a couple of sports radio stations to get some additional exposure. Focussing on the Philly market and I may be able to get a link on one of their websites early this summer which should drive significant traffic to the petition.
I'm not about to expect the worst...
Gotcha...Just be careful not to push too hard. The senior committee has been known to take exception to fans trying to tell them how to do their jobs. They already interview former players, although I doubt anything you can get in that regard would hurt his chances. But if this turns into something that they feel is trying to bully them into making a selection, it will end up making them turn against selecting him.
Of course, you are free to do whatever you please on it, just giving you my opinion based on things that have transpired in the past. Put it this way, none of the senior candidates selected the last 5 years at least were selected because of petitions or fan push. There are multiple senior candidates who have a huge fan following trying to help them to the HOF. Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey did not...Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas certainly did not...Charlie Sanders and Gene Hickerson were not...John Madden and Rayfield Wright were not...I think you get where I am coming from.
Just be cautious, the voters are all media guys and they tend to be very protective of their "territory". There's a fine line between raising awareness for Wistert's candidacy and calling the committee idiots for never selecting him before...lol
Best of luck, and let me know if you need any assistance along the way.
Jason >>
Jason:
Most of the bantar is to continue to keep the motivation up. My "presentation" will be subtle, but well documented and supported. I've got a few more months to get it all together and keeping the energy up will keep me motivated to get all of the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
Thanks for the advise (and your assitance), though. It is greatly appreciated!
<< <i>
<< <i>[
Jason:
Most of the bantar is to continue to keep the motivation up. My "presentation" will be subtle, but well documented and supported. I've got a few more months to get it all together and keeping the energy up will keep me motivated to get all of the i's dotted and the t's crossed.
Thanks for the advise (and your assitance), though. It is greatly appreciated! >>
Scott, that sounds excellent. Can't wait to see the final product.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>I talked to my senior committee guy today and he basically said he hasn't even thought about next years candidates yet, and won't until after the draft. He does not however have one particular guy he's planning to shoot for this year, so it would seem the door is wide open for at least one of the 9. >>
Next time you talk to him, bend his ear about Chris Hanburger.
And I sincerely hope you're right about Russ Grimm next year. >>
Hanburger is one of my favorite LBs from the era, and I've mentioned him many times. I don't know why the senior committee isn't high on him. I think it mainly has to do with how OLB's were viewed during the late 60's-early 70's...How many other OLB's from his time frame are in the HOF? TWO..Bobby Bell and Dave Wilcox..And Wilcox was a Senior committee selection...How many other HOF worthy ones are NOT in other than Hanburger? Dave Robinson, Chuck Howley, Andy Russell, Maxie Baughan...
Its the same thing that has happened to the Safety position during the 80's-90's..Just became a devalued position during the era, with most of the "better" athletes/players being used at MLB back then or in case of the 80's/90's CB...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The past 6 years, the HOF committee has used the Semifinalist method of voting. Where they reduce the initial list to 25, then 15 finalists, then 10 and then 5 finalists.
Over those last 6 years, we've had 32 new HOFers...Many of the HOFers have been first ballot guys (11 of them), senior candidates (9 of those), and 12 who were on the ballot the previous year.
Here is how those 12 fared in the year PRIOR to their election..
1- Made the final cut, but did not get the 80% (Harry Carson)
7- Made the next to last cut to 10, but missed the final cut
1- Was a finalist, but did not make the cut to 10 (Zimmerman)
1- Was a semifinalist but was not a finalist (Roger Wehrli in his last year on the ballot)
1- Was not even a semifinalist the year prior (Ralph Wilson)
1- Was not a finalist the year prior, there were no semifinalist (Carl Eller in his last year on the ballot)
In the 6 years prior to that, the only records I have is the list of actual 15 finalists. Subtracting the first ballot guys and senior selections:
15 were finalist the year prior
2 were not finalist the year prior (Elvin Bethea and Joe DeLamielleure- Class of 2003)
What does this say? If you aren't an owner/contributor, in the last year of eligibilty, a first ballot HOFer or a senior selection...You probably aren't making the HOF unless you were at at least a finalist...
Making next year's non-first ballot or senior options:
Cris Carter
Richard Dent
Shannon Sharpe
Russ Grimm
John Randle
Paul Tagliabue
Dermontti Dawson
Andre Reed
Cortez Kennedy
Super-slim chance of anyone else not on their first ballot (Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Aeneas Williams, Tim Brown) or a senior committee selection.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hall of Fame: Inside the process
For 6 hour, 45 minutes in Tampa on Saturday, we listened, debated and deliberated.
At the end, you feel happy for the people who were voted into Pro Football Hall of Fame, but also hamstrung because the Class of 2009 couldn't be larger. Trimming the list of 15 modern-era finalists to 10 and then five left everyone exasperated because it meant leaving out players who belong in the Hall.
In my case, there also were feelings of inadequacy, because my presentation for Cortez Kennedy didn't even get the Seahawks' former Pro Bowl defensive tackle into the round of 10. But there was enough support "in the room" – as the process has been dubbed – to make me believe Tez will make it, if not next year then the year after that.
Rules prohibit members of the 44-person selection committee from revealing exactly what goes on "in the room" – and especially what is said about the candidates because the promise of confidentially is what allows truly open debate.
But he's an insider's look, within the rules, at what happened:
Each candidate is presented by a media member from the city where the contender spent the bulk of his NFL career, as the committee is comprise of one representative from each NFL city, 11 at-large selectors and the president of the Pro Football Writers of America.
First up were the senior candidates – former Cowboys wide receiver Bob Hayes and ex-Falcons/Eagles defensive end Claude Humphrey. After their presentations, they are voted on separately from the 15 modern-era candidates. It's a simple "yes" or "no" vote, with 80 percent "yes" needed for inclusion in the class.
I voted for Hayes, who made it; but not for Humphrey, who didn't.
Then, it was on to the 13 modern-era players and two contributors – Bills owner Ralph Wilson and former commissioners Paul Tagliabue.
In the two years I've been on the committee, the heaviest – and most-heated – debate has involved Tagliabue. It has become clear that the pro-Tags selectors are not going to convince his detractors that he should be in the Hall, and vice versa. I'm not sure how to rectify the situation, but these meetings will continue to be six-plus hours as long as this remains the case.
Sports Illustrated's Peter King has made Tagliabue's presentation the past three years, and King admits frustration this morning in his "Monday Morning Quarterback" feature on SI.com.
Mark Gaughan of the Buffalo News and Mark Craig of the Minneapolis Star Tribune, who was subbing for Sid Hartman, were busy – as each made three presentations.
Gaughan was very convincing in support of Wilson, and assisted by a follow-up presentation by Vic Carucci, a long-time beat writer for the Bills who now works for NFL.com and was subbing for Mike Chappell of the Indianapolis Star.
It also helped when someone else pointed out that if you think Wilson belongs in the Hall, vote for him now rather than later because Wilson is 90. It worked for me, and obviously others.
Once the 15 modern-era presentations were completed, the finalists were trimmed to a group of 10.
My list: WR Cris Carter, C Dermontti Dawson, Kennedy, OG Randall McDaniel, DT John Randle, TE Shannon Sharpe, DE Bruce Smith, LB Derrick Thomas, Wilson and DB Rod Woodson.
The official list: Carter, DE Richard Dent, OG Russ Grimm, McDaniel, Randle, Sharpe, Smith, Thomas, Wilson and Woodson.
Then, another round of discussion on the remaining 10, before the list was trimmed to five. This was very difficult, because Smith and Woodson were slam-dunk choices in their first year of eligibility. That left only three spots, with more than three worthy candidates.
My final five: McDaniel, Sharpe, Smith, Wilson and Woodson.
The official final five: McDaniel, Smith, Thomas, Wilson, Woodson.
"Losing" Tez after the first round allowed me to add another player to my list – McDaniel. Being convinced that Wilson was Hall worthy, and this was the year to do it, cost me one – Sharpe.
But even that wasn't the end of it. Each of the final five was voted on again, one by one. Each needed the same 80-percent "yes" votes to become a member of the Class of '09. I voted "yes" for each candidate.
The selectors then filed into a larger room down the hall, where the announcements were made on live TV – or at least the NFL Network. The selectors found out who "made it" at the same time as everyone else in the room.
One of the highlights this year was watching Smith, still a striking figure of a man, tear up and then offered, "I cry not because I'm less of a man. I cry because I am a man."
Another came when Lucille Hester, sister of the late Hayes, read a letter her brother had left – just in case – before he died in 2002: "I would like to thank everyone who supported me to get into the NFL Hall of Fame – the Dallas Cowboy organization, all my teammates, and everyone who played for the Cowboys. Thanks to the committee who voted for me, and also for the ones who might not have. Tell all my teammates I love them. And just thank everyone in the whole world."
The clincher, however, was seeing the imposing Smith, the player, and the frail Wilson, the owner, embrace.
Offered Wilson, "I don't know what to say. I know I'm supposed to say something; you're waiting for me to say something."
That pretty much said it all, even after the almost seven-hour ordeal that led to Wilson's inclusion in the Class of '09 – and him not being able to find the words to match the honor.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
A factor in Derrick Thomas’ election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame was turnover on the 44-member board of selectors, said Bob Gretz, Kansas City’s representative on the committee.
Three committee members, who Gretz knew did not previously vote for Thomas, were replaced because of retirement and illness. Entry into the hall is an 80-percent vote, so nine thumbs down keeps the door closed.
“There were no guarantees the three that replace them voted for (Thomas), but they were going to be more open-minded than the three who made it very plain that they in no way saw him as a Hall of Famer,” Gretz said. “I said going in, like so many things in life, it’s the timing.”
This time was right, and Thomas’ Hall status shouldn’t be diminished because he didn’t make it in until his fifth try. As Gretz points out, waiting on the Hall call has been more the norm for Chiefs.
Bobby Bell and Willie Lanier waited four years from the time they became eligible. Len Dawson waited seven years, and Buck Buchanan didn’t make it until his 10th year of eligibility.
The quickest Hall entry for a player who spent most of his career with the Chiefs: kicker Jan Stenerud, who wrapped up his career in Green Bay in 1985 and, after the five-year waiting period, was elected in 1991.
Thomas’ announcement Saturday filled Gretz’s telephone with messages from the likes of Bill Cowher, Thomas’ first position coach and coordinator, and former head coach Marty Schottenheimer, who was “emotional and teary, as you’d expect,” Gretz said.
After stating Thomas’ case for five years, Gretz also took a measure of personal satisfaction from the decision.
“I’m just glad a guy who I got to see play for the Chiefs, and who I believed was a Hall of Famer, made it,” Gretz said.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Former 49ers receiver Billy Wilson dies at 81
The Associated PressPublished: January 28, 2009
SAN FRANCISCO: Former San Francisco 49ers receiver Billy Wilson, a six-time Pro Bowler who starred for the team in the 1950s, died Tuesday. He was 81.
Wilson died peacefully in the presence of his family in Southern California after a battle with cancer, the team said.
Wilson led the NFL in receptions three times during his career from 1951-60, retiring with 407 catches for 5,902 yards and 49 touchdowns. Wilson is fourth all-time for San Francisco in TD catches, fifth in yards receiving and sixth in receptions.
"He was one of the fiercest competitors I ever played with," said Wilson's former quarterback, Y.A. Tittle. "He was our No. 1 receiver. Whenever we needed a big catch, I went to him, because I knew he would make the play."
Wilson, who played his college ball at San Jose State, led the NFL with 60 catches in 1954, 60 receptions in 1956 and 52 in 1957, when he was a first-team selection to the AP All-Pro team.
"I remember a play Billy made when he caught a pass, leaped straight up into the air over myself and two other defenders and ran it in for a touchdown," said Hall of Fame coach Don Shula, who was also a defensive back in the NFL in the 1950s.
"It was a great play and he truly was a great receiver. He is one of the few players of another era that would excel today."
Wilson worked for the Niners after his playing career as an assistant coach and scout.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Lost in the pre- and post-Super Bowl hoop-de-blah was Saturday's announcement of the latest Pro Football Hall of Fame class, and its lack of Cris Carter.
Oh, a few people have wondered about it, but not that many, which leads us to the following conclusions:
• One, the nation does not agonize over Carter's induction.
• Two, the selectors are wary of anyone who has big numbers without big deeds behind them.
• Three, the backlog of great players still not in the Hall is fairly daunting for any voter.
• And four, the nation might finally understand that if you are not a slam-dunk selection like Joe Montana or Walter Payton, you have to wait, pure and simple.
That last one -- about the nation's understanding -- we frankly doubt, but we thought we'd throw it out there as a gesture of generosity.
In other words, most of the players proclaimed as mortal locks for the Hall of Fame actually aren't mortal locks at all, and the sooner that is made clear, the better.
And there is no better way to point this out than to use Cris Carter.
His numbers are gaudy -- he is third in history in receptions and second in touchdowns -- but he falls into the loose category of "compiler," someone who has big numbers and nothing more. And in the room, there is a clear and historical resistance to "compilers" unless they have a well-developed postseason/Super Bowl/extraordinary moments résumé to go with it.
Carter doesn't. His postseason history (14 games, eight TDs, one 100-yard game, no Super Bowls) isn't miserable, but it has no shining moments that lasted long in the memory, and that works against him in a room in which nine votes keeps you out.
That's right, nine. There are only 44 selectors in the room, and unless you are truly a Paytonesque stone lock, there are typically at least nine folks who want both numbers and context, and won't jump unless they get it. Some even define it as "Can you write the history of pro football without mentioning his name?"
You can probably do that without getting to Cris Carter, but that's an argument that depends on the author. We do not know if Sid Hartman, the longtime Minneapolis columnist who would have made the case for Carter, did a great job or not. We suspect, given history, that it wouldn't have mattered much either way.
And that's the important point here -- that it is hard to clear a bar like the history-of-football bar, which is why, after you take out the 58 players (all no-brainers) who were elected in their first year of eligibility, the average wait for a player is eight years. Eight.
A particularly egregious example is offensive tackle Bob Brown, who was by most analyses the dominant offensive lineman of the '60s. He had to wait 26 years to get in.
Another is Vince Lombardi. Yes, that Vince Lombardi. He wasn't a finalist in his first two years on the ballot. Now if you can make a case for Cris Carter being more important to pro football than Vince Lombardi, have at it, and best of luck to you.
But you're not trying that because you know you can't. And if Vince Lombardi had to wait ... well, do you see the problem now?
Bob Hayes had to wait. Art Monk had to wait. Tim Brown is going to have to wait. You can shriek about it until you are blue in the mouth, but that's the First Law of the Hall -- if your presenter cannot stand up in the room and just say the name without further comment, your guy isn't a slam-dunk, and non-slam-dunks wait. Sometimes a long time. Sometimes forever.
If the selectors did a better job of explaining this, that understanding would come easier, even in this I-only-know-what-I-saw-with-my-own-eyes culture. But the selectors don't get to talk about what happened in the room because they don't want to get pounded by the public the way Corky Simpson got smoked for omitting Rickey Henderson from his Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.
We're not defending that omission, but he took a frightful Internet beating while the other 27 people who also left Henderson off their ballots stayed safe and anonymous. Not enough voters have yet pushed to break the sequestration rules, thus pro football's sheetrock wall stays up, and the voters don't have to show their work.
Too bad, too, because Cris Carter not getting in right away is easy to understand. There are too many strong candidates still in front of him, and he is not a slam-dunk on his own, no matter what you might believe in his defense. He will wait, because that's how the system works. There is nothing more sinister to it than that.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Although I am still utterly devestated by the Cards' loss, I did have a nice pickup this weekend at the card show at NFL Experience, a replica HOF helmet with 20 sigs, including Lavelli, Dudley, Pihos, Kelly, Trippi, and Lenny Moore.....$200. The live Hunt auction was pretty cool, a lot of the memorabilia was on display, including a Sayers game-worn jersey that went for $10k. Pretty cool overall, just suck-ass ending to the game. Holmes didn't even get both feet down, his right landed on top of his left...what a joke. But I'm not bitter.....
Jasen
I recently sent the annual weight updates for the set (along with many of the other key card sets) and used the SMR pricing as directed, which actually changed quite a bit this year on many of the cards.
PSA already updated the smaller key card set weightings, the HOF sets will probably be updated within a week or 2.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.