<< <i> I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. >>
Do you think PSA will move to a model whereby any rc can be added for modern cards?
Rgs.
Greg M. >>
Greg, according to my conversation with Gayle after the Stautner and Creekmur stamps (err..I mean cards..) were added that their either/or was a one time exception. Reason being that their shiny new Beckett Encyclopedia listed the 1950 Stamps as the "true rookies" and not the 51's. But they didnt delete the 1951's because they had been in the set for so long. I was told, they would not being doing any other either/ors on the set. But as we've seen over the years..Things can and will change with the wind in seems, so I'd never say never. It would ruin the set though IMO.
As far as autographed cards go, I think you could make that same argument for individually numbered cards. Using your quote "The unintended consequence of shunning the best rc's of certain players (which are ---individually numbered---) is that it leads us down the path of subjectivity when trying to determine the best "non---individually numbered--" card to be added."
In many cases the "best" most valuable rookie is numbered lower, sometimes much lower than /999. Does that mean we should allow numbered cards as low as /500? or /250 just because they are considered "base set" cards? I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. Keeping out non-traditional cards like autographs, game used, jersey swatches keeps the set traditional. I'm not a fan of any of those type cards ever being listed on this set, but I understand some do. If/when we come upon a card that is to be added that has multiple possibilities, I hope that our votes will decide which card.
As I've said, there really is no better way to determine the "best" card than to have a poll or vote of the collectors of that set. Everyone has their own opinions on what should be allowed and what shouldn't. Letting the majority decide is the American way. As long as that is how we determine the cards, then there really is no reason for debate. If it is PSA shoving a card down my throat, or adding a card or making a change because one collector doesnt agree (which they HAVE done in the past) is my biggest issue with card selection. You will rarely if ever be able to sit down 20-30 collectors and have them ALL agree which card is the "best" of each player.
Its too easy to point to the HOF Rookie/Player/Coach set or the HOF Autograph set as places collectors can add autographed cards, and/or any cards of their choice. When we originally put this set together, it was to make it more like a REAL set, like say 1972 Topps. With specific cards you need to complete it. With 80+ collecotrs in just 6 years, I think we really got it right in the way we created it and the intent to keep it cut and dry.
Bottom line, if you are trying to get ahead of the game, and buy cards before they are officially added to the set, then you should be aware that you are rolling the dice. Most of these players and auto cards we are talking about have a few years before they are eligible to add..And who knows what PSA will be saying 5 years from now.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. >>
I will save the Brady's for Perkdog..I will take the Brown anyday!
Do people really pay that much for modern cards?? >>
Let me correct or add to what Bill said. A PSA 10 Brady is priced close to what a PSA 8 Jim Brown costs. A PSA 8 Brady vs. a PSA 8 Jim Brown, the Jim Brown sells higher by a wide marging...A PSA 10 Brady vs. a PSA 10 Jim Brown, the Brown would sell MUCH MUCH MUCH higher.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in. >>
I think Greene will eventually get in. He's made the semi-finals the past 3 years. Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line, and probably the only strong LB candidate until Seau comes along 5+ years down the road. He's certainly not a "lock" HOFer. He wasn't great in pass coverage or in run support. Descent in both, but not HOF caliber in those regards. But he was a HOF caliber pass rusher, much like Thomas. When you look at the list of LBs who never got in as a modern candidate (Chuck Howley, Dave Robinson, Randy Gradishar, Tommy Nobis, Chris Hanburger) it really shows how tough it is for LBs to get in...
My projections have Greene making the Class of 2014 at the earliest. Just based on the upcoming first ballot guys, plus the line of guys already waiting to get in who seem to be in front of him at the moment. If Seau retires though, he'll be pushed back even later. He's got many years of eligibility left, and realistically if Derrick Thomas is waiting as long as he has, Greene will have to be very patient...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in. >>
I think Greene will eventually get in. He's made the semi-finals the past 3 years. Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line, and probably the only strong LB candidate until Seau comes along 5+ years down the road. He's certainly not a "lock" HOFer. He wasn't great in pass coverage or in run support. Descent in both, but not HOF caliber in those regards. But he was a HOF caliber pass rusher, much like Thomas. When you look at the list of LBs who never got in as a modern candidate (Chuck Howley, Dave Robinson, Randy Gradishar, Tommy Nobis, Chris Hanburger) it really shows how tough it is for LBs to get in...
My projections have Greene making the Class of 2014 at the earliest. Just based on the upcoming first ballot guys, plus the line of guys already waiting to get in who seem to be in front of him at the moment. If Seau retires though, he'll be pushed back even later. He's got many years of eligibility left, and realistically if Derrick Thomas is waiting as long as he has, Greene will have to be very patient...
Jason >>
I'm glad to see Greene has other supporters. I think it hurts that he played w/ couple of francises so he lacks a bond with any one team. At the same time I think it shows that he wasn't the product of the talent around him.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
<< <i>...Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line... >>
I think this year just might be the year Derrick gets in. I recently heard Gunther Cunnigham make a very good case for him to John McClain (Houston HOF voter) on a local radio show. Gunther apparently coached Derrick more than anyone else and was insistent that Derrick was not just a sack specialist and was an every down player. John seemed truly moved and said he was going to present the points Gunther laid out, of course along with the KC voter. That might just be radio talk, but it seemed like Derrick would get a nice push this year.
I don't understand why elite sack specialists like Greene, Thomas, Doleman, etc. get discredited if they were lacking in areas like rush and/or pass defense. I'm sure some of the running backs and wide receivers in the HOF were terrible blockers. And I'm KNOW most of the quarterbacks did not have the balls to take off with the rock. My point is, if you excelled at an elite level in an important part of the game, like pass rush, then you should be in the HOF.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>...Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line... >>
I think this year just might be the year Derrick gets in. I recently heard Gunther Cunnigham make a very good case for him to John McClain (Houston HOF voter) on a local radio show. Gunther apparently coached Derrick more than anyone else and was insistent that Derrick was not just a sack specialist and was an every down player. John seemed truly moved and said he was going to present the points Gunther laid out, of course along with the KC voter. That might just be radio talk, but it seemed like Derrick would get a nice push this year. >>
A thought the same until Claude Humphrey became one of the Senior selections...Plus, the chatter I've heard somewhat goes against Thomas making it this year. The argument being with Claude Humphrey and Bruce Smith going in, it would unprecedented for the voters to elect 3 pass rushers in one year. Just might not have the votes necessary yet again. He has made the cut from 15 to 10 the last 2 years though, only to have Fred Dean and Tippett get more votes (which I still dont quite understand). Certainly not impossible, and if I were ranking the modern finalists for this year based on my personal opinion, he'd be the 4th most deserving behind Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson and Cris Carter...I'll be rooting for him, but I'm not predicting his election this year.
As of this moment, my predictions for the Class of 2009 are: Bruce Smith Rod Woodson Cris Carter Ralph Wilson Bob Hayes Claude Humphrey
And if we get a 7th Randall McDaniel.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't understand why elite sack specialists like Greene, Thomas, Doleman, etc. get discredited if they were lacking in areas like rush and/or pass defense. I'm sure some of the running backs and wide receivers in the HOF were terrible blockers. And I'm KNOW most of the quarterbacks did not have the balls to take off with the rock. My point is, if you excelled at an elite level in an important part of the game, like pass rush, then you should be in the HOF. >>
Agreed..It seems that the voters are starting to recognize them more, with Fred Dean going in last year...We can only hope that the trend continues with Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas, Richard Dent getting in the next 2-3 years.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Former Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Derrick Thomas will be one of 17 candidates considered for the 2009 Class of the National Football League's Hall of Fame.
He joins former stars like Shannon Sharpe, Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson as candidates.
Thomas certainly has some great statistics and accolades. He recorded seven sacks one game against Dave Krieg and the Seattle Seahawks. He was named to nine Pro Bowls, recorded 126.5 sacks and recorded a 20-season for the Chiefs.
He certainly was outstanding as a pass rusher. He struck fear in the hearts of quarterbacks like John Elway, Steve Young and Jim Kelly.
However, he was a one-dimensional player. Pass rushing was his only skill as a linebacker. During his time with the Chiefs, he never was a complete player at his position.
He was never good against the run and often had to sit out key third and short plays.
Most notably, during the 1994 AFC Championship game against the Buffalo Bills, Thurman Thomas carried the ball for 186 yards and entered the end zone three times in Buffalo's 30-13 victory.
Thomas was either on the bench during key plays or was ineffective as a run defender for the Chiefs. While he may have improved later on in his career, Thomas was never a good defender against the run.
Lawrence Taylor, who many Thomas supporters compare resumes with, was great against the run. During his NFL MVP season in 1986, Taylor record over 100 tackles. In other season, Taylor had over 80 tackles.
Thomas’ numbers do not compare to Taylor’s when it comes to tackling or his skills defending the opponent's rushing attack.
To be accurately classified as a complete linebacker – and thus a strong candidate for the NFL Hall of Fame – one must also be good in pass coverage. Whether it’s the outside linebacker position or the position in the middle, a Hall of Fame linebacker is serviceable in coverage.
However, in over a decade of play, Thomas could only intercept one pass. Taylor, meanwhile, secured nine interceptions in his career. Ray Lewis has 28 as of the conclusion of the 2008 season. Mike Singletary, the great linebacker in Chicago, had seven.
Junior Seau, who played for the San Diego Chargers the majority of his career, was able to intercept 18 passes. And like Taylor, Seau was great against the run, making over 1,500 tackles in his career.
Seau was a complete linebacker. He earned about 60 sacks in his career, just half of Thomas’ number. But Seau was a more complete player at the linebacker position than Thomas was for the Chiefs.
Thomas is the NFL equivalent to Major League Baseball’s Mark McGwire. McGwire did one thing and one thing only – hit round-trippers. He never had a great batting average and was a below average fielder.
Thomas’ death was arguably the saddest day in the history of Kansas City sports history.
He had a number of charitable interests in Kansas City and there are a number of which that still operate to this day. For example, the Derrick Thomas Third and Long Foundation is a contributor to funding education causes in Kansas City, Mo., most notably the Derrick Thomas Academy.
However, the tragedy should not cloud Thomas’ legacy of being a one-dimensional player, meaning that his resume is not quite complete for the NFL Hall of Fame.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't understand why elite sack specialists like Greene, Thomas, Doleman, etc. get discredited if they were lacking in areas like rush and/or pass defense. I'm sure some of the running backs and wide receivers in the HOF were terrible blockers. And I'm KNOW most of the quarterbacks did not have the balls to take off with the rock. My point is, if you excelled at an elite level in an important part of the game, like pass rush, then you should be in the HOF. >>
I agree, especially when those players able to excel for the duration of their careers. I think it's hard to judge OLB and DE play against the run b/c most of the time teams run inside the tackles, limiting the amt. of tackles those positions can make. Often their responsibilities are to set the edge and force the run inside. Occasionally they make a backside play but that requires the runner being held up at the line of scrimmage. In regards to pass defense that really is scheme specific and what a DC asks a player to do. Thomas' and Greene's roles were to rush since they were highly skilled at. If a player has the ability to rush the QB then why shouldn't a DC take advantage of that? Even if a player is solid in coverage it will most often result in an incomplete pass while a sack leads to a loss of yardage and possibly a turnover. This why I think pass rushers deserve more credit.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
If you want to measure a players positional importance to their team, much like the card hobby....Simply follow the money.....
NFL's Average Salaries By Position Quarterback $1,970,982 Defensive End $1,583,784 Offensive Lineman $1,267,402 Defensive Tackle $1,223,925 Cornerback $1,193,666 Linebacker $1,175,788 Wide Receiver $1,054,437 Running Back $957,360 Safety $947,887 Punter/Kicker $868,005 Tight End $863,414
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Guys, we need to calibrate our card choices on these new cards. I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. If Peyton's card keeps going, it will be there as well. >>
Very well said!! I absolutly cannot justify spending that kind of $ on a card 9 years old. I will never own the SP Brady. I would much rather have a nice PSA 7 Brown for the same price as a PSA 9 Brady............Plus, I'm a colts fan...LOL..
Thought you guys might enjoy this....Hall of Fame class not in love with this Guy
By CHRIS TALBOTT, Associated Press Writer 11 hours, 13 minutes ago
Buzz up!21 votes PrintHATTIESBURG, Miss. (AP)—After two hours of talking about his life and his days with the Oakland Raiders, Ray Guy turns to a waitress who’s been eavesdropping.
“I bet you’d be surprised to know I never used to talk that much when I was younger,” Guy said. “I was bashful.”
These days the former Raiders punter is a regular raconteur—happy to share stories about his work with young football players, trade stories about his All-Pro seasons and describe the new Jack Russell puppy he’s adopted for company.
He only hesitates when the conversation is steered to one of his least favorite topics: the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
“I was trying to get your mind off of it,” Guy said with a laugh.
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When the seven 2009 inductees are announced later this week, Guy already knows he will not be on the list. A seven-time finalist for selection since 1992, most recently in 2007 and ’08, Guy didn’t make the cut from 25 semifinalists this time around.
You wouldn’t know it from meeting him. Guy is all smiles, still slim and trim at 59 with white hair and a touch of a smoker’s rasp in his booming Southern drawl. Friends stop by the table at his favorite haunt to say hello and he’s treated much like a celebrity in this small town where he was the starting free safety and punter, backup quarterback and a player on the baseball team at Southern Miss 35 years ago.
Were it not for a fellow named Favre, Ray Guy would be the most famous athlete ever to slide through Hattiesburg. There’s even an award given to college football’s best punter named for him.
Most assume he’s been granted every honor the man considered by many to be the NFL’s greatest punter could garner. But the fact remains: Guy is not in the Hall of Fame. Even worse to Guy, no player whose day job was punting has ever been selected by voters who meet each January.
“I think what I can tell you is, yes, I’m upset, but, no, it’s not something I’m going to sit here and dwell on,” Guy said over a Miller Lite. “Things happen for a reason. I’m a firm believer in fate, that sooner or later, if you wait long enough and you work hard enough, it will come around.”
Truth be told, Guy doesn’t have much time to sit around and dwell on it. He’s too busy. He now works for Southern Miss, helping to plan the school’s 2010 centennial celebration. And he headlines a series of camps for punters and kickers with many of his pupils having gone on to college teams and even the NFL.
He finds the work fulfilling. He’s held camps in every state but Alaska and his work at Southern Miss gives him a chance to serve as mentor to young people.
“I love what I’m doing,” Guy said. “I’m trying to give back to them. Not just the student-athletes, but the students in general. When you cross that curb over there into real life, I’m trying to relate to them what that’s like.”
Occasionally a camper or player will ask Guy if he’s still got his chops. They want to see if he can still put his right foot far over his head and hang the ball up there for 6 seconds like he did when the Raiders won three Super Bowls.
He once grabbed a few balls and a pair of cleats out of the Southern Miss locker room with the idea he’d head over to the cow pasture near his house and fire off a few, just to see. But the shoes remain in their box, the balls in a bag.
“I probably could still get it that high,” Guy always says. “But there’d be another problem—gettin’ it down.”
Mostly, he worries that he might hurt his back again. The injury forced him out of the NFL a year earlier than he planned, cutting short one of the league’s more colorful careers.
He played for the Raiders from 1973-86 and remains the only punter taken in the first round, 23rd overall by the Raiders. He was selected to seven Pro Bowls and still holds the record for most career punts in that game with 33. He led the NFL in gross average three times, finishing with a career mark of 42.4 yards per punt.
A gifted athlete who served as the Raiders’ emergency quarterback, the oft-used term “hang time” was coined to help describe his kicks. They would languish in the air, allowing tacklers to encircle a return man before he received the ball. They stayed up there so long, iconic coach Bum Phillips once had a football he used analyzed to see if it contained helium.
“Ray Guy is the standard of excellence by which all punters will be measured for all eternity,” Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis said. “His character was the very best. His will to win, his belief in team and the Raiders organization exemplified the greatness of the Raiders.”
So why isn’t Guy in the Hall of Fame? He’s heard all the reasons, participated in all the debates. What it really comes down to is punters get no respect.
There are none in Canton, save for those who were inducted for their work at other positions—former Washington Redskins quarterback Sammy Baugh, for instance. At least placekickers can point to Jan Stenerud, the lone pure kicker in the Hall of Fame.
No, punters must suffer in ignominy, the importance of their position downgraded because they don’t score points. A wily punter can help keep the opposing team buried in its own end of the field, giving his team’s defense a huge advantage. But there’s nothing sexy about punting, nothing voters have found worthy of honoring.
Guy just wants to see a punter in the Hall of Fame, it doesn’t matter if it’s him. He points to others who are deserving—the Dolphins’ Reggie Roby, Jerrel Wilson of Southern Miss and the Chiefs, Herman “Thunderfoot” Weaver of the Lions and the Steelers’ Craig Colquitt.
Punters of today also feel the snub and pull for Guy’s eventual entry.
“It’s football, so a guy who is the best at his position in the game deserves to be in the Hall of Fame,” Steelers punter Mitch Berger said. “It’s not the Pro Football And Not Kickers Hall of Fame, so if a guy has the statistics and he’s been one of the greats in his job, I don’t think there’s any reason he should be judged unlike any other position. But we all know that’s not the real world.”
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
• 3:5 -- Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson. I'd be surprised if these weren't the 65th and 66th first-ballot Hall-of-Famers. Smith's a four-time Defensive Player of the Year winner and the all-time-leading sacker. Woodson was one of five active players to make the NFL's 75th Anniversary team, the others being Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Ronnie Lott and Reggie White.
• Even -- Bob Hayes. There's a lot of momentum for Hayes, and I put his chances this high because he's one of two seniors. Lots of the old players think Hayes should have been in long ago, and I think he'll be sold hard by those in the room on his side. I am unconvinced that he "changed the game,'' as many of his advocates say, but I will be open to his candidacy.
• 3:2 -- Cris Carter, Shannon Sharpe. Carter, an all-decade player in the '90s, retired in second place on most of the receiving lists. I thought his 1,101 catches and 130 touchdowns would get him in as a rookie last year. Sharpe retired in 2004 as the all-time leader among tight ends in catches, yards and touchdowns, and he won three Super Bowl rings in a four-year span with Denver and Baltimore. He belongs. My only question is whether the voters will look at the gaudy numbers being put up by Tony Gonzalez and those behind him and wonder if Sharpe's totals will be passed by three or four tight ends in the next decade or so.
• 2:1 -- Derrick Thomas, Claude Humphrey. I felt the tide turning in the room last year for Thomas, and I thought he might make it after selectors heard the presentation for him. I think if voters believe he was even a satisfactory player against the run, he'll get in this time. Humphrey, who played mostly for horrible Falcon teams, gets the bounce from being a Seniors Committee yea-or-nay nominee, which is huge. Imagine being voted All-Pro five times while playing in absolute anonymity. Humphrey should get tremendous credit for leading the Philly D to the Super Bowl in 1980 with his 14.5-sack season.
• 3:1 -- Richard Dent. Dent, like Thomas, is gaining momentum, and I think at least one pass-rusher other than Smith will make it this year. I think it'll probably come down to Thomas or Dent.
• 4:1 -- Bob Kuechenberg, Paul Tagliabue, Ralph Wilson, Dermontti Dawson. Kuechenberg's case won't be helped by the fact that his biggest advocate in the room, Paul Zimmerman, won't be there to champion his cause; Zim will be back in New Jersey, recovering from multiple December strokes (more on him later). Kuechenberg always gets solid support in the room, and some think he was a better player than current Hall members Jim Langer and Larry Little from his own Dolphin line, but the support is never enough.
Selectors seem to hold California stadium and franchise failures against Tagliabue, as well as the current uncertain labor situation that stems from his last major decision in office -- even though football was the only sport in his 17-year tenure as commissioner without a work stoppage and the league got 21 new stadiums built in his time.
I'm a big Wilson supporter because of how he propped up the AFL in its struggling days in the early '60s. (I'm not sure the Raiders would have ever reached three years old without Wilson's under-the-table loan to keep them afloat.) I also like him because he has been such a loyal backer of the Buffalo franchise when he's had multiple chances to move and make bazillions. A total league guy all the way. Dawson was a first-team All-Pro center six times in 13 seasons. Mike Webster won the honor seven times in 17 years.
• 6:1 -- Russ Grimm, Randall McDaniel. Hard to believe there's no Washington Hog in the Hall from maybe the greatest offensive line in history, but I don't sense much traction for Grimm. I hope I'm wrong. I'm no fan of Pro Bowl berths, because they've become so diluted, but making 12 in a row, as McDaniel did, has to count for something.
• 8:1 -- Andre Reed, Cortez Kennedy, John Randle. The longer Reed waits, the more unlikely his election becomes, because receivers keep passing him. I think the selectors view Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas as the Hall-of-Famers from that era, not Reed. Kennedy is a worthy candidate. But I can't see he and Randle, the energetic and productive Viking and Seahawk, coming very close in their first year when so many others have been close for a while.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. Bob Hayes 2. Claude Humphrey 3. Bruce Smith 4. Rod Woodson 5. Derrick Thomas 6. Bob Kuechenberg (I think he gets a big push because of Dr. Z's health, someone will take up the torch) 7. Cris Carter
1. Bruce Smith 2. Rod Woodson 3. Cris Carter 4. Bob Hayes 5. Claude Humphrey 6. Ralph Wilson
Interesting take on Kuechenberg...Could be a possibility for sure. A gift to Dr. Z?..Not to mention Don Shula (who has never in his life endorsed a player for the HOF) sent out love letters to each voter expressing his view that Kuech should be in the HOF. this is his last shot as a modern guy, and I think he should have been in long ago.
But, I'm going to stick with my predictions which I base on the totality of different opinions I've heard from varying HOF voters over the past few weeks. These aren't necessarily my votes, but rather how I feel the committee is going to go.
I do reserve the right to change this between now and Saturday..lol
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason >>
So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
<< <i>Hey Dave, a PSA8 Hayes for $145.........on what planet is that! >>
Yeah, seriously. I just paid $290 for mine.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Hey Dave, a PSA8 Hayes for $145.........on what planet is that!
Doc >>
That's the "SMR" price...Pretty accurate right???
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason >>
Forgot about Claude Humphrey starting for the 1980 Eagles...If he goes in, it means every Super Bowl team (winner and loser) of the first 30 Super Bowls will end up with at least one HOFer...I think that's a pretty good sampling, enough to tell us to look for the HOFers anytime you watch a Super Bowl...
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
Jasen >>
I think how each of these guys performs on Sunday will obviously go a long way in determining their HOF status..For borderline guys like Warner and James, a dominant performance could solidify them...For Fitz and Boldin, it would certainly steer their careers on the path to the HOF, with a long way left to go...I agree with you on Wilson. Much like Fred Taylor for my hometown team, just has been too out of the spotlight over the years and is very underrated.
For the Steelers, They don't have any locked in HOFers yet either..But Big Ben, Hines Ward, Polamalu...With longer outlooks for guys like Willie Parker and James Harrison...All have the potential. And a 2nd Super Bowl win would guarantee a couple of them at the very least will make the Hall one day.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i> So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
Jasen >>
I think how each of these guys performs on Sunday will obviously go a long way in determining their HOF status..For borderline guys like Warner and James, a dominant performance could solidify them...For Fitz and Boldin, it would certainly steer their careers on the path to the HOF, with a long way left to go...I agree with you on Wilson. Much like Fred Taylor for my hometown team, just has been too out of the spotlight over the years and is very underrated.
For the Steelers, They don't have any locked in HOFers yet either..But Big Ben, Hines Ward, Polamalu...With longer outlooks for guys like Willie Parker and James Harrison...All have the potential. And a 2nd Super Bowl win would guarantee a couple of them at the very least will make the Hall one day.
Jason >>
Is there any QB besides Plunkett to win two SBs and not make the HOF?
Is there any QB besides Plunkett to win two SBs and not make the HOF? >>
Tom Brady, who's a lock if he retired today...The only one...
Plunkett isn't in because he never really had a great regular season in his entire carrer. Never made a Pro Bowl or All-Pro either, but he sure did show up big in the big games...With the HOF it's never stats alone or Super Bowls alone that gets you in, but rather the totality of the resume when all is said and done. it's what you did PLUS how you did it that steer the voting.
Big Ben will be interesting to see what happens if he wins his 2nd so early in his career. What if he wrecks another motorcycle or has an injury or 2 that turns him into an average QB the rest of his career..Will the 2 Super Bowls be enough? Tough to say...With Warner, he has the numbers. He has the regular season and Super MVPs already under his belt. 2 rings for him would just be the icing on the cake and help to wipe away those 3-4 bad years he had in between. Big ben is still going to need a few more years of pro Bowl/All-Pro level production before we can say that he is HOF material. He seems to be on that path, but as we've seen with many guys in the past who looked to be HOF bound, one injury can end that talk quickly.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Super Bowl tickets are in hand!!! Now if anyone here has an "in" for a media pass so I can watch the HOF announcement press conference, PLEASE let me know. GO CARDS!!!!!
Didn't know if you guys noticed or not but the Packers hired Kevin Greene to be their new linebackers coach. He was selling real estate in Florida but once the Pack hired Dom Capers he became interested and the Packers offered him his first NFL coaching job. I hope he does well, it may boost his chances of someday joining the HOF.
<< <i>Didn't know if you guys noticed or not but the Packers hired Kevin Greene to be their new linebackers coach. He was selling real estate in Florida but once the Pack hired Dom Capers he became interested and the Packers offered him his first NFL coaching job. I hope he does well, it may boost his chances of someday joining the HOF.
Doc >>
Being a real estate agent in Florida will probably hurt his chances at the HOF though Was he selling condo's in Miami?
Have fun at the Super Bowl Jasen, very cool that your going!! I wish your Cardinals luck man, its going to be a good game. I get the feeling Im going to have to live with this sig line for a few more months.
As the old saying goes, the best defense is a good offense, and the Cards offense seems to be hitting their stride at the right time.
<< <i>Didn't know if you guys noticed or not but the Packers hired Kevin Greene to be their new linebackers coach. He was selling real estate in Florida but once the Pack hired Dom Capers he became interested and the Packers offered him his first NFL coaching job. I hope he does well, it may boost his chances of someday joining the HOF.
Doc >>
I hope it improves his chances as well. He was a great OLB.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
Not sure if anyone here was tracking my PSA 9 '71 Charlie Sanders, but I'd be open to a trade or trade plus cash for it. LMK.
Andy
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Not sure if anyone here was tracking my PSA 9 '71 Charlie Sanders, but I'd be open to a trade or trade plus cash for it. LMK.
Andy >>
How much in trade value?
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. Bruce Smith 2. Rod Woodson 3. Cris Carter 4. Bob Hayes 5. Ralph Wilson 6. Claude Humphrey 7. Richard Dent 8. Randall McDaniel 9. Derrick Thomas 10. Shannon Sharpe 11. Bob Kuechenberg 12. Russ Grimm 13. Paul Tagliabue 14. Dermontti Dawson 15. John Randle 16. Andre Reed 17. Cortez Kennedy
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Did someone drop out of this set? I noticed I'm now in the top 10.......
>>
Looks like SKINSFAN (Art Miller) dropped off, he was ranked like 6th at almost 100% completion. He must be selling his stuff, I remember hearing that he had sold his top notch 1963 Topps set.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Inside the room: What Pro Football Hall of Fame voting is like Dave Scheiber, Times Staff Writer Posted: Jan 30, 2009 11:50 AM
TAMPA — Early Saturday morning, a group of veteran sportswriters will convene behind closed doors at the Tampa Convention Center and forever change the lives and legacies of football greats they once covered.
It is a Super Bowl event that goes unnoticed each year to the outside world; a day that thrusts journalists into an intense, high-stakes game of power and persuasion — and relegates marquee NFL names to the sidelines, waiting tensely for the outcome.
The team that counts in this case consists of 44 football scribes, who prepare all year for this moment: the presentations, discussions and often heated debate that determine which of 17 finalists will make the Pro Football Hall of Fame and which may never get another shot.
The writers — representing each of the NFL's 32 teams, plus at-large representatives — will make impassioned pitches on behalf of the players, coaches or executives tied to the team the reporter covers.
At times, they are transformed into trial lawyers, making closing arguments with carefully prepared comments and meticulously researched statistics, all with no extra compensation.
Former Tampa Tribune sports editor Tom McEwen remembers the pressure surrounding his presentation of Lee Roy Selmon, whose superlative play as a Buc defensive end for nine seasons made him eligible for induction in 1995. But the fact that the team was so bad for much of Selmon's reign made it a challenge.
"It wasn't a slam dunk by any means — it is the only time that I woke up in the middle of the night to make changes and I came into the meeting with something I felt was beautifully crafted," he said. McEwen, a polished public speaker, wove humor with evidence of Selmon's impact on the field and to the franchise as a whole. And he got the job done, swaying at least several members who had not planned to vote for Selmon.
For McEwen, the reward was plentiful: "It's one of the great pleasures of my life that Lee Roy made it on the first ballot."
•••
The sense of duty is shared by every selector. Unlike the Baseball Hall of Fame, which relies on a straight-up vote of baseball writers, this job starts each February when the Hall of Fame sends the selectors a list of some 130 nominees retired for the mandatory five years.
Many pore through record books, search the Web, and interview former players and executives to prepare. A mail-in vote whittles the number to 25 and a second one narrows it 15, while a subcommittee travels to Canton each August to review senior nominees and selects two.
Then, the day before every Super Bowl, selectors go into the meeting at roughly 7:30 a.m. armed with 17 names.
They emerge some six grueling hours later with a list of new inductees — a maximum of five from the modern era and two old-timers, though the final number depends on how many receive the required minimum of 80 percent of the vote.
"I want to tell you, it's one of my very favorite events each year, just because of the tremendous responsibility," said Leonard Shapiro, who covered the Redskins in the '70s and '80s for the Washington Post and has served as a Hall of Fame selector for more than two decades. "You're affecting people's lives. And for guys who make it to the final five and don't get 80 percent, it just kills me."
•••
The process could be as simple as former San Francisco Chronicle writer Ira Miller, the longtime 49ers beat man who presented for Joe Montana in 2000.
"What I said was, 'I can talk for a minute and you can go to the restroom or we can just move on,' " Miller recalled. "Cooper Rollow (the former Chicago Tribune sports editor) did that with Walter Payton. He stood up, said 'Walter Payton' — and sat down."
For towering players such as Montana and Payton, the selection committee's work is a breeze. But other decisions can spark sharp disagreements, such as the Giants' Lawrence Taylor, one of the all-time great linebackers, but a player also known for his two cocaine-related arrests.
"The Lawrence Taylor vote was particularly contentious," Shapiro said. "One of the rules of our bylaws we are only supposed to consider on-field accomplishments, not off-field behavior. But human nature makes it hard to screen that out. When Taylor came up, it was a very heated discussion. One voter said, I know what the rules are, but I have a problem voting Lawence Taylor into the Hall because I think it sends the wrong message."
Taylor prevailed. On the other hand, retired NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue and the late "Bullet Bob" Hayes, the speed-demon wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys, haven't been so lucky.
Tagliabue has missed the final cut the last two years, while Hayes fell short in 2004.
Yet their names will be up for a vote again Saturday, along with 15 other finalists, including three of the sport's stellar defensive ends from the past 30 years — Bruce Smith, Claude Humphrey and Richard Dent; Rod Woodson, the defensive back extraordinaire for the '90s Steelers; former Redskin guard and "Hog" Russ Grimm (now coaching with the Cardinals); dominating tight end Shannon Sharpe; and Cris Carter and Andre Reed, once two of the league's top wide receivers.
"The only one I think is a lock is Bruce Smith, because he's one of the greatest pass-rushers ever, and I believe Rod Woodson and Shannon Sharpe deserve to be in there," said John McClain of the Houston Chronicle, a 16-year selector. "But I don't think any deserve to be in there before Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey."
McClain, speaking for Humphrey, has helped propel four Oilers into the Hall: defensive end Elvin Bethea, quarterback Warren Moon, and linemen Mike Munchak and Bruce Matthews.
With Moon, there were obstacles. "The objections were that he had never been in a championship game or a Super Bowl, and he played the run-and-shoot his whole career, so he should have good stats," McClain said. "But I showed how he played in the run-and-shoot only three-and-a-half years and then had his best season in Minnesota playing in a conventional system."
He laid out how Moon did things at 40 that no other quarterback did, and compared him favorably to Dan Fouts, who never played in a Super Bowl.
"My thought on Moon going in was 'probably not,' and then I voted for him," said Sports Illustrated NFL writer Peter King. "And that rarely, rarely happens with me in 17 years of doing this. I always pay attention to the presentation — and I was really convinced by the tremendous body of evidence from McLain."
•••
A similar challenge is faced today by Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News. He is the presenter for Bob Hayes and has prepared impressive comparative stats that show his impact:
"His average touchdown — one every 5.2 career catches; Lynn Swann (a Hall of Famer since 2001) one every 6.8, Jerry Rice (not yet eligible) one every 7.8, Cris Carter one every 8.5 ..."
So what's not to like? Well, last time around, Hayes was criticized for keeping his hands tucked in the front of his pants in the minus-20-degree Green Bay weather in the legendary "Ice Bowl" game of 1967. His history of drug abuse may have worked against him, despite the guidelines. The vote prompted Sports Illustrated's Paul Zimmerman to resign in protest. But today may bring a different result for the Florida native who died in 2002.
Tagliabue has detractors — a contingent from the West Coast, most vocally Ira Miller, who believes the commissioner fell short in key areas, such as bringing a new team to Los Angeles in place of the Rams and the last collective bargaining agreement. But he has supporters such as Shapiro, who stresses that Tagliabue oversaw many advances, including the "Rooney Rule," requiring that minority candidates be interviewed for head coaching jobs.
There are no guarantees, except that the group, including two women, will be ready. Voting is secret, and results aren't revealed until they are televised at 2:30. That's when the writers get their real reward: "When you see the faces of the ones who made it," McClain said, "smiling like kids on Christmas morning."
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Makes you wonder the effect the presenters have on the selections. How much weight they put on the presenter vs the players ability. >>
I would say: 95% Players ability 5% Presenter
It SHOULD be 0% presenter, but that just isn't realistic when you are talking about media types, many of which are known to carry bias. The other issue which I had never really considered before just a few days ago....
The ORDER in which the presentations are given...If each presentation last approx. 10 minutes, how much attention is being paid to those which are given #16 and #17? After 2+ hours of listening to ANYONE talk I start zoning out myself...lol...I've been trying to find out the last day or so WHO exactly gets to choose the order? I know for a fact it isn't alphabetical, or by team..So who and how is that decided? For the borderline guys, it COULD mean the difference in those last couple of votes they need.
It does help explain some of the surprises over the years..Most notably last year having Fred Dean and Andre Tippett seemingly leapfrog guys who were though to have more support like Cris Carter, Kuechenberg, Derrick Thomas, Dent, etc.
Jason
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Any thoughts on whether the Cardinals in the game will help Russ Grimm? I can't believe Tipp got in last year over D.Thomas....still scratching my head on that one.
<< <i>Any thoughts on whether the Cardinals in the game will help Russ Grimm? I can't believe Tipp got in last year over D.Thomas....still scratching my head on that one.
Jaesn >>
I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe that it will..Although anything that gets your name out there a bit more helps...
I think that Grimm has a good chance of making the cutdown from 15-10 this time , along with McDaniel and Kuech, but in the end, that might hurt all 3. AndI think McDaniel and Kuech still have more support among the voters than Grimm. Last year McDaniel and Kuech made the cutdown to 10, but Grimm did not. That 10th spot will come down to Grimm and Tagliabue IMO..The other 9 seem to be pretty solidly locked into the top 10 modern candidates right now..(The 9 below). I will be shocked if any of the other modern guys make it outside of the 9 listed here. These have been the guys with the most buzz the past couple of weeks...In fact, really haven't heard any push at all for any of the other modern guys...
1. Bruce Smith 2. Rod Woodson 3. Cris Carter 4. Ralph Wilson 5. Richard Dent 6. Randall McDaniel 7. Derrick Thomas 8. Shannon Sharpe 9. Bob Kuechenberg
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. Bruce Smith 2. Rod Woodson 3. Cris Carter 4. Bob Hayes 5. Shannon Sharpe (longshot)
-----------------------
Just missing out:
Derrick Thomas Randall McDaniel Ralph Wilson Claude Humphrey Richard Dent Bob Kuechenberg Dermontti Dawson Paul Tagliabue John Randle Andre Reed Cortez Kennedy Russ Grimm
Seems to be some posturing for Derrick Thomas, too. I certainly hope not. Too one dimensional and to have him go in the same year as Bruce Smith is an insult to Smith's all-around dominance and performance at the position.
Comments
<< <i> I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. >>
-------------------------------------------------------
Really?????...crazy...crazy...crazy
I will save the Brady's for Perkdog..I will take the Brown anyday!
Do people really pay that much for modern cards??
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
<< <i>Jason,
Do you think PSA will move to a model whereby any rc can be added for modern cards?
Rgs.
Greg M. >>
Greg, according to my conversation with Gayle after the Stautner and Creekmur stamps (err..I mean cards..
As far as autographed cards go, I think you could make that same argument for individually numbered cards. Using your quote "The unintended consequence of shunning the best rc's of certain players (which are ---individually numbered---) is that it leads us down the path of subjectivity when trying to determine the best "non---individually numbered--" card to be added."
In many cases the "best" most valuable rookie is numbered lower, sometimes much lower than /999. Does that mean we should allow numbered cards as low as /500? or /250 just because they are considered "base set" cards? I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. Keeping out non-traditional cards like autographs, game used, jersey swatches keeps the set traditional. I'm not a fan of any of those type cards ever being listed on this set, but I understand some do. If/when we come upon a card that is to be added that has multiple possibilities, I hope that our votes will decide which card.
As I've said, there really is no better way to determine the "best" card than to have a poll or vote of the collectors of that set. Everyone has their own opinions on what should be allowed and what shouldn't. Letting the majority decide is the American way. As long as that is how we determine the cards, then there really is no reason for debate. If it is PSA shoving a card down my throat, or adding a card or making a change because one collector doesnt agree (which they HAVE done in the past) is my biggest issue with card selection. You will rarely if ever be able to sit down 20-30 collectors and have them ALL agree which card is the "best" of each player.
Its too easy to point to the HOF Rookie/Player/Coach set or the HOF Autograph set as places collectors can add autographed cards, and/or any cards of their choice. When we originally put this set together, it was to make it more like a REAL set, like say 1972 Topps. With specific cards you need to complete it. With 80+ collecotrs in just 6 years, I think we really got it right in the way we created it and the intent to keep it cut and dry.
Bottom line, if you are trying to get ahead of the game, and buy cards before they are officially added to the set, then you should be aware that you are rolling the dice. Most of these players and auto cards we are talking about have a few years before they are eligible to add..And who knows what PSA will be saying 5 years from now.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i> I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. >>
-------------------------------------------------------
Really?????...crazy...crazy...crazy
I will save the Brady's for Perkdog..I will take the Brown anyday!
Do people really pay that much for modern cards?? >>
Let me correct or add to what Bill said. A PSA 10 Brady is priced close to what a PSA 8 Jim Brown costs. A PSA 8 Brady vs. a PSA 8 Jim Brown, the Jim Brown sells higher by a wide marging...A PSA 10 Brady vs. a PSA 10 Jim Brown, the Brown would sell MUCH MUCH MUCH higher.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in. >>
I think Greene will eventually get in. He's made the semi-finals the past 3 years. Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line, and probably the only strong LB candidate until Seau comes along 5+ years down the road. He's certainly not a "lock" HOFer. He wasn't great in pass coverage or in run support. Descent in both, but not HOF caliber in those regards. But he was a HOF caliber pass rusher, much like Thomas. When you look at the list of LBs who never got in as a modern candidate (Chuck Howley, Dave Robinson, Randy Gradishar, Tommy Nobis, Chris Hanburger) it really shows how tough it is for LBs to get in...
My projections have Greene making the Class of 2014 at the earliest. Just based on the upcoming first ballot guys, plus the line of guys already waiting to get in who seem to be in front of him at the moment. If Seau retires though, he'll be pushed back even later. He's got many years of eligibility left, and realistically if Derrick Thomas is waiting as long as he has, Greene will have to be very patient...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Question - why isn't Kevin Green an automatic shoo in for the HOF? He retired 3rd all time in sacks and forced fumbles and was voted to 3 pro bowls. Plus he won one or two yearly awards (LB of the year - I belive in 1996). It seems strange that he isn't mentioned as a lock for the HOF.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
After seeing Tippett get voted in I would think Greene has a very strong chance now.
Tippett: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros. v. Greene: 5 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pros
Tippett: 100 Sacks v. Greene 160 Sacks
If the voters had no problems inducting Tippett then Greene should eventually get in. >>
I think Greene will eventually get in. He's made the semi-finals the past 3 years. Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line, and probably the only strong LB candidate until Seau comes along 5+ years down the road. He's certainly not a "lock" HOFer. He wasn't great in pass coverage or in run support. Descent in both, but not HOF caliber in those regards. But he was a HOF caliber pass rusher, much like Thomas. When you look at the list of LBs who never got in as a modern candidate (Chuck Howley, Dave Robinson, Randy Gradishar, Tommy Nobis, Chris Hanburger) it really shows how tough it is for LBs to get in...
My projections have Greene making the Class of 2014 at the earliest. Just based on the upcoming first ballot guys, plus the line of guys already waiting to get in who seem to be in front of him at the moment. If Seau retires though, he'll be pushed back even later. He's got many years of eligibility left, and realistically if Derrick Thomas is waiting as long as he has, Greene will have to be very patient...
Jason >>
I'm glad to see Greene has other supporters. I think it hurts that he played w/ couple of francises so he lacks a bond with any one team. At the same time I think it shows that he wasn't the product of the talent around him.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>...Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line... >>
I think this year just might be the year Derrick gets in. I recently heard Gunther Cunnigham make a very good case for him to John McClain (Houston HOF voter) on a local radio show. Gunther apparently coached Derrick more than anyone else and was insistent that Derrick was not just a sack specialist and was an every down player. John seemed truly moved and said he was going to present the points Gunther laid out, of course along with the KC voter. That might just be radio talk, but it seemed like Derrick would get a nice push this year.
<< <i>
<< <i>...Once Derrick Thomas gets in (either this year or next) Greene will be the next LB in line... >>
I think this year just might be the year Derrick gets in. I recently heard Gunther Cunnigham make a very good case for him to John McClain (Houston HOF voter) on a local radio show. Gunther apparently coached Derrick more than anyone else and was insistent that Derrick was not just a sack specialist and was an every down player. John seemed truly moved and said he was going to present the points Gunther laid out, of course along with the KC voter. That might just be radio talk, but it seemed like Derrick would get a nice push this year. >>
A thought the same until Claude Humphrey became one of the Senior selections...Plus, the chatter I've heard somewhat goes against Thomas making it this year. The argument being with Claude Humphrey and Bruce Smith going in, it would unprecedented for the voters to elect 3 pass rushers in one year. Just might not have the votes necessary yet again. He has made the cut from 15 to 10 the last 2 years though, only to have Fred Dean and Tippett get more votes (which I still dont quite understand). Certainly not impossible, and if I were ranking the modern finalists for this year based on my personal opinion, he'd be the 4th most deserving behind Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson and Cris Carter...I'll be rooting for him, but I'm not predicting his election this year.
As of this moment, my predictions for the Class of 2009 are:
Bruce Smith
Rod Woodson
Cris Carter
Ralph Wilson
Bob Hayes
Claude Humphrey
And if we get a 7th Randall McDaniel.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't understand why elite sack specialists like Greene, Thomas, Doleman, etc. get discredited if they were lacking in areas like rush and/or pass defense. I'm sure some of the running backs and wide receivers in the HOF were terrible blockers. And I'm KNOW most of the quarterbacks did not have the balls to take off with the rock. My point is, if you excelled at an elite level in an important part of the game, like pass rush, then you should be in the HOF. >>
Agreed..It seems that the voters are starting to recognize them more, with Fred Dean going in last year...We can only hope that the trend continues with Bruce Smith, Derrick Thomas, Richard Dent getting in the next 2-3 years.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Former Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Derrick Thomas will be one of 17 candidates considered for the 2009 Class of the National Football League's Hall of Fame.
He joins former stars like Shannon Sharpe, Bruce Smith and Rod Woodson as candidates.
Thomas certainly has some great statistics and accolades. He recorded seven sacks one game against Dave Krieg and the Seattle Seahawks. He was named to nine Pro Bowls, recorded 126.5 sacks and recorded a 20-season for the Chiefs.
He certainly was outstanding as a pass rusher. He struck fear in the hearts of quarterbacks like John Elway, Steve Young and Jim Kelly.
However, he was a one-dimensional player. Pass rushing was his only skill as a linebacker. During his time with the Chiefs, he never was a complete player at his position.
He was never good against the run and often had to sit out key third and short plays.
Most notably, during the 1994 AFC Championship game against the Buffalo Bills, Thurman Thomas carried the ball for 186 yards and entered the end zone three times in Buffalo's 30-13 victory.
Thomas was either on the bench during key plays or was ineffective as a run defender for the Chiefs. While he may have improved later on in his career, Thomas was never a good defender against the run.
Lawrence Taylor, who many Thomas supporters compare resumes with, was great against the run. During his NFL MVP season in 1986, Taylor record over 100 tackles. In other season, Taylor had over 80 tackles.
Thomas’ numbers do not compare to Taylor’s when it comes to tackling or his skills defending the opponent's rushing attack.
To be accurately classified as a complete linebacker – and thus a strong candidate for the NFL Hall of Fame – one must also be good in pass coverage. Whether it’s the outside linebacker position or the position in the middle, a Hall of Fame linebacker is serviceable in coverage.
However, in over a decade of play, Thomas could only intercept one pass. Taylor, meanwhile, secured nine interceptions in his career. Ray Lewis has 28 as of the conclusion of the 2008 season. Mike Singletary, the great linebacker in Chicago, had seven.
Junior Seau, who played for the San Diego Chargers the majority of his career, was able to intercept 18 passes. And like Taylor, Seau was great against the run, making over 1,500 tackles in his career.
Seau was a complete linebacker. He earned about 60 sacks in his career, just half of Thomas’ number. But Seau was a more complete player at the linebacker position than Thomas was for the Chiefs.
Thomas is the NFL equivalent to Major League Baseball’s Mark McGwire. McGwire did one thing and one thing only – hit round-trippers. He never had a great batting average and was a below average fielder.
Thomas’ death was arguably the saddest day in the history of Kansas City sports history.
He had a number of charitable interests in Kansas City and there are a number of which that still operate to this day. For example, the Derrick Thomas Third and Long Foundation is a contributor to funding education causes in Kansas City, Mo., most notably the Derrick Thomas Academy.
However, the tragedy should not cloud Thomas’ legacy of being a one-dimensional player, meaning that his resume is not quite complete for the NFL Hall of Fame.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>I don't understand why elite sack specialists like Greene, Thomas, Doleman, etc. get discredited if they were lacking in areas like rush and/or pass defense. I'm sure some of the running backs and wide receivers in the HOF were terrible blockers. And I'm KNOW most of the quarterbacks did not have the balls to take off with the rock. My point is, if you excelled at an elite level in an important part of the game, like pass rush, then you should be in the HOF. >>
I agree, especially when those players able to excel for the duration of their careers. I think it's hard to judge OLB and DE play against the run b/c most of the time teams run inside the tackles, limiting the amt. of tackles those positions can make. Often their responsibilities are to set the edge and force the run inside. Occasionally they make a backside play but that requires the runner being held up at the line of scrimmage. In regards to pass defense that really is scheme specific and what a DC asks a player to do. Thomas' and Greene's roles were to rush since they were highly skilled at. If a player has the ability to rush the QB then why shouldn't a DC take advantage of that? Even if a player is solid in coverage it will most often result in an incomplete pass while a sack leads to a loss of yardage and possibly a turnover. This why I think pass rushers deserve more credit.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
NFL's Average Salaries By Position
Quarterback $1,970,982
Defensive End $1,583,784
Offensive Lineman $1,267,402
Defensive Tackle $1,223,925
Cornerback $1,193,666
Linebacker $1,175,788
Wide Receiver $1,054,437
Running Back $957,360
Safety $947,887
Punter/Kicker $868,005
Tight End $863,414
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Guys, we need to calibrate our card choices on these new cards. I am still trying to justify paying more for a Tom brady RC than I did for a Jim Brown RC PSA 8. While I think Brady is a great QB, Paying more for his card than arguably the best running back ever (50 yr old card - 164 PSa 8 with only 5 higher) doesn't make much sense to me. If Peyton's card keeps going, it will be there as well. >>
Very well said!! I absolutly cannot justify spending that kind of $ on a card 9 years old. I will never own the SP Brady. I would much rather have a nice PSA 7 Brown for the same price as a PSA 9 Brady............Plus, I'm a colts fan...LOL..
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
By CHRIS TALBOTT, Associated Press Writer
11 hours, 13 minutes ago
Buzz up!21 votes PrintHATTIESBURG, Miss. (AP)—After two hours of talking about his life and his days with the Oakland Raiders, Ray Guy turns to a waitress who’s been eavesdropping.
“I bet you’d be surprised to know I never used to talk that much when I was younger,” Guy said. “I was bashful.”
These days the former Raiders punter is a regular raconteur—happy to share stories about his work with young football players, trade stories about his All-Pro seasons and describe the new Jack Russell puppy he’s adopted for company.
He only hesitates when the conversation is steered to one of his least favorite topics: the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
“I was trying to get your mind off of it,” Guy said with a laugh.
ADVERTISEMENT
When the seven 2009 inductees are announced later this week, Guy already knows he will not be on the list. A seven-time finalist for selection since 1992, most recently in 2007 and ’08, Guy didn’t make the cut from 25 semifinalists this time around.
You wouldn’t know it from meeting him. Guy is all smiles, still slim and trim at 59 with white hair and a touch of a smoker’s rasp in his booming Southern drawl. Friends stop by the table at his favorite haunt to say hello and he’s treated much like a celebrity in this small town where he was the starting free safety and punter, backup quarterback and a player on the baseball team at Southern Miss 35 years ago.
Were it not for a fellow named Favre, Ray Guy would be the most famous athlete ever to slide through Hattiesburg. There’s even an award given to college football’s best punter named for him.
Most assume he’s been granted every honor the man considered by many to be the NFL’s greatest punter could garner. But the fact remains: Guy is not in the Hall of Fame. Even worse to Guy, no player whose day job was punting has ever been selected by voters who meet each January.
“I think what I can tell you is, yes, I’m upset, but, no, it’s not something I’m going to sit here and dwell on,” Guy said over a Miller Lite. “Things happen for a reason. I’m a firm believer in fate, that sooner or later, if you wait long enough and you work hard enough, it will come around.”
Truth be told, Guy doesn’t have much time to sit around and dwell on it. He’s too busy. He now works for Southern Miss, helping to plan the school’s 2010 centennial celebration. And he headlines a series of camps for punters and kickers with many of his pupils having gone on to college teams and even the NFL.
He finds the work fulfilling. He’s held camps in every state but Alaska and his work at Southern Miss gives him a chance to serve as mentor to young people.
“I love what I’m doing,” Guy said. “I’m trying to give back to them. Not just the student-athletes, but the students in general. When you cross that curb over there into real life, I’m trying to relate to them what that’s like.”
Occasionally a camper or player will ask Guy if he’s still got his chops. They want to see if he can still put his right foot far over his head and hang the ball up there for 6 seconds like he did when the Raiders won three Super Bowls.
He once grabbed a few balls and a pair of cleats out of the Southern Miss locker room with the idea he’d head over to the cow pasture near his house and fire off a few, just to see. But the shoes remain in their box, the balls in a bag.
“I probably could still get it that high,” Guy always says. “But there’d be another problem—gettin’ it down.”
Mostly, he worries that he might hurt his back again. The injury forced him out of the NFL a year earlier than he planned, cutting short one of the league’s more colorful careers.
He played for the Raiders from 1973-86 and remains the only punter taken in the first round, 23rd overall by the Raiders. He was selected to seven Pro Bowls and still holds the record for most career punts in that game with 33. He led the NFL in gross average three times, finishing with a career mark of 42.4 yards per punt.
A gifted athlete who served as the Raiders’ emergency quarterback, the oft-used term “hang time” was coined to help describe his kicks. They would languish in the air, allowing tacklers to encircle a return man before he received the ball. They stayed up there so long, iconic coach Bum Phillips once had a football he used analyzed to see if it contained helium.
“Ray Guy is the standard of excellence by which all punters will be measured for all eternity,” Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis said. “His character was the very best. His will to win, his belief in team and the Raiders organization exemplified the greatness of the Raiders.”
So why isn’t Guy in the Hall of Fame? He’s heard all the reasons, participated in all the debates. What it really comes down to is punters get no respect.
There are none in Canton, save for those who were inducted for their work at other positions—former Washington Redskins quarterback Sammy Baugh, for instance. At least placekickers can point to Jan Stenerud, the lone pure kicker in the Hall of Fame.
No, punters must suffer in ignominy, the importance of their position downgraded because they don’t score points. A wily punter can help keep the opposing team buried in its own end of the field, giving his team’s defense a huge advantage. But there’s nothing sexy about punting, nothing voters have found worthy of honoring.
Guy just wants to see a punter in the Hall of Fame, it doesn’t matter if it’s him. He points to others who are deserving—the Dolphins’ Reggie Roby, Jerrel Wilson of Southern Miss and the Chiefs, Herman “Thunderfoot” Weaver of the Lions and the Steelers’ Craig Colquitt.
Punters of today also feel the snub and pull for Guy’s eventual entry.
“It’s football, so a guy who is the best at his position in the game deserves to be in the Hall of Fame,” Steelers punter Mitch Berger said. “It’s not the Pro Football And Not Kickers Hall of Fame, so if a guy has the statistics and he’s been one of the greats in his job, I don’t think there’s any reason he should be judged unlike any other position. But we all know that’s not the real world.”
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
1977 Broncos
1980 Eagles
1994 Chargers
1995 Steelers
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I just listed my PSA 9 Pacific Warner RC in case anyone is interested. Hoping to get a little boost from the SB...
LINK....Thanks for looking
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
are you talking players only, or also coaches/admin?
jay
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
The odds for entry to the Hall this weekend:
• 3:5 -- Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson. I'd be surprised if these weren't the 65th and 66th first-ballot Hall-of-Famers. Smith's a four-time Defensive Player of the Year winner and the all-time-leading sacker. Woodson was one of five active players to make the NFL's 75th Anniversary team, the others being Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Ronnie Lott and Reggie White.
• Even -- Bob Hayes. There's a lot of momentum for Hayes, and I put his chances this high because he's one of two seniors. Lots of the old players think Hayes should have been in long ago, and I think he'll be sold hard by those in the room on his side. I am unconvinced that he "changed the game,'' as many of his advocates say, but I will be open to his candidacy.
• 3:2 -- Cris Carter, Shannon Sharpe. Carter, an all-decade player in the '90s, retired in second place on most of the receiving lists. I thought his 1,101 catches and 130 touchdowns would get him in as a rookie last year. Sharpe retired in 2004 as the all-time leader among tight ends in catches, yards and touchdowns, and he won three Super Bowl rings in a four-year span with Denver and Baltimore. He belongs. My only question is whether the voters will look at the gaudy numbers being put up by Tony Gonzalez and those behind him and wonder if Sharpe's totals will be passed by three or four tight ends in the next decade or so.
• 2:1 -- Derrick Thomas, Claude Humphrey. I felt the tide turning in the room last year for Thomas, and I thought he might make it after selectors heard the presentation for him. I think if voters believe he was even a satisfactory player against the run, he'll get in this time. Humphrey, who played mostly for horrible Falcon teams, gets the bounce from being a Seniors Committee yea-or-nay nominee, which is huge. Imagine being voted All-Pro five times while playing in absolute anonymity. Humphrey should get tremendous credit for leading the Philly D to the Super Bowl in 1980 with his 14.5-sack season.
• 3:1 -- Richard Dent. Dent, like Thomas, is gaining momentum, and I think at least one pass-rusher other than Smith will make it this year. I think it'll probably come down to Thomas or Dent.
• 4:1 -- Bob Kuechenberg, Paul Tagliabue, Ralph Wilson, Dermontti Dawson. Kuechenberg's case won't be helped by the fact that his biggest advocate in the room, Paul Zimmerman, won't be there to champion his cause; Zim will be back in New Jersey, recovering from multiple December strokes (more on him later). Kuechenberg always gets solid support in the room, and some think he was a better player than current Hall members Jim Langer and Larry Little from his own Dolphin line, but the support is never enough.
Selectors seem to hold California stadium and franchise failures against Tagliabue, as well as the current uncertain labor situation that stems from his last major decision in office -- even though football was the only sport in his 17-year tenure as commissioner without a work stoppage and the league got 21 new stadiums built in his time.
I'm a big Wilson supporter because of how he propped up the AFL in its struggling days in the early '60s. (I'm not sure the Raiders would have ever reached three years old without Wilson's under-the-table loan to keep them afloat.) I also like him because he has been such a loyal backer of the Buffalo franchise when he's had multiple chances to move and make bazillions. A total league guy all the way. Dawson was a first-team All-Pro center six times in 13 seasons. Mike Webster won the honor seven times in 17 years.
• 6:1 -- Russ Grimm, Randall McDaniel. Hard to believe there's no Washington Hog in the Hall from maybe the greatest offensive line in history, but I don't sense much traction for Grimm. I hope I'm wrong. I'm no fan of Pro Bowl berths, because they've become so diluted, but making 12 in a row, as McDaniel did, has to count for something.
• 8:1 -- Andre Reed, Cortez Kennedy, John Randle. The longer Reed waits, the more unlikely his election becomes, because receivers keep passing him. I think the selectors view Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas as the Hall-of-Famers from that era, not Reed. Kennedy is a worthy candidate. But I can't see he and Randle, the energetic and productive Viking and Seahawk, coming very close in their first year when so many others have been close for a while.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. Bob Hayes
2. Claude Humphrey
3. Bruce Smith
4. Rod Woodson
5. Derrick Thomas
6. Bob Kuechenberg (I think he gets a big push because of Dr. Z's health, someone will take up the torch)
7. Cris Carter
2. Rod Woodson
3. Cris Carter
4. Bob Hayes
5. Claude Humphrey
6. Ralph Wilson
Interesting take on Kuechenberg...Could be a possibility for sure. A gift to Dr. Z?..Not to mention Don Shula (who has never in his life endorsed a player for the HOF) sent out love letters to each voter expressing his view that Kuech should be in the HOF. this is his last shot as a modern guy, and I think he should have been in long ago.
But, I'm going to stick with my predictions which I base on the totality of different opinions I've heard from varying HOF voters over the past few weeks. These aren't necessarily my votes, but rather how I feel the committee is going to go.
I do reserve the right to change this between now and Saturday..lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Doc
<< <i>Interesting fact.
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
1977 Broncos
1980 Eagles
1994 Chargers
1995 Steelers
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason >>
So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
Jasen
<< <i>Hey Dave, a PSA8 Hayes for $145.........on what planet is that! >>
Yeah, seriously. I just paid $290 for mine.
linky
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Hey Dave, a PSA8 Hayes for $145.........on what planet is that! >>
Just to be clear, It was not my article, I just found it.......
Dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Hey Dave, a PSA8 Hayes for $145.........on what planet is that!
Doc >>
That's the "SMR" price...Pretty accurate right???
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Interesting fact.
Through the first 30 Super Bowls, the winning team averages 3.87 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 4. The losing team averages 2.27 HOFers in the starting lineup, rounded to 2.
Based on the current Steelers/Cards Super Bowl teams, who are the future HOFers?
Also, in those same first 30 Super Bowls, there are 4 teams (all losing teams BTW) who have ZERO HOFers...
1977 Broncos
1980 Eagles
1994 Chargers
1995 Steelers
The 95 Steelers will come off this list when Rod Woodson goes in, they also have strong candidates in Dermontti Dawson and Kevin Greene...The 94 Chargers will come off this list when Junior Seau is elected.
The leaves the 77 Broncos and the 80 Eagles. Neither team has a horse in the modern candidate race. Randy Gradishar probably has the best shot from the Senior Pool for the Broncos. And the Eagles only possibles are longshots like Harold Carmichael and Bill Bergey. So, it is very rare to have ZERO HOFers on a losing team, and we never had a Super Bowl winner of the first 30 without at least ONE HOFer....As stated above, the winning team averages almost 4 HOFers in the starting lineup.
Something to think about when you watch the game on Sunday.
Jason >>
Forgot about Claude Humphrey starting for the 1980 Eagles...If he goes in, it means every Super Bowl team (winner and loser) of the first 30 Super Bowls will end up with at least one HOFer...I think that's a pretty good sampling, enough to tell us to look for the HOFers anytime you watch a Super Bowl...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
Jasen >>
I think how each of these guys performs on Sunday will obviously go a long way in determining their HOF status..For borderline guys like Warner and James, a dominant performance could solidify them...For Fitz and Boldin, it would certainly steer their careers on the path to the HOF, with a long way left to go...I agree with you on Wilson. Much like Fred Taylor for my hometown team, just has been too out of the spotlight over the years and is very underrated.
For the Steelers, They don't have any locked in HOFers yet either..But Big Ben, Hines Ward, Polamalu...With longer outlooks for guys like Willie Parker and James Harrison...All have the potential. And a 2nd Super Bowl win would guarantee a couple of them at the very least will make the Hall one day.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>
<< <i>
So 4 HOFers from the winning team? Well, I think the favorites at this point are all on the offensive side of the ball in K. Warner, Edge James, Larry Fitz and Q Boldin. I think A. Wilson is a SEVERELY underrated career, having played mostly for losing teams, and he's too old (8th year) at this point to put a HOF resume together. The young guys on defense to watch are Darnell Dockett (watch this guy play, he is a BEAST) and our rookie corner, DRC. Oh yeah, GO CARDS!!!
Jasen >>
I think how each of these guys performs on Sunday will obviously go a long way in determining their HOF status..For borderline guys like Warner and James, a dominant performance could solidify them...For Fitz and Boldin, it would certainly steer their careers on the path to the HOF, with a long way left to go...I agree with you on Wilson. Much like Fred Taylor for my hometown team, just has been too out of the spotlight over the years and is very underrated.
For the Steelers, They don't have any locked in HOFers yet either..But Big Ben, Hines Ward, Polamalu...With longer outlooks for guys like Willie Parker and James Harrison...All have the potential. And a 2nd Super Bowl win would guarantee a couple of them at the very least will make the Hall one day.
Jason >>
Is there any QB besides Plunkett to win two SBs and not make the HOF?
<< <i>
Is there any QB besides Plunkett to win two SBs and not make the HOF? >>
Tom Brady, who's a lock if he retired today...The only one...
Plunkett isn't in because he never really had a great regular season in his entire carrer. Never made a Pro Bowl or All-Pro either, but he sure did show up big in the big games...With the HOF it's never stats alone or Super Bowls alone that gets you in, but rather the totality of the resume when all is said and done. it's what you did PLUS how you did it that steer the voting.
Big Ben will be interesting to see what happens if he wins his 2nd so early in his career. What if he wrecks another motorcycle or has an injury or 2 that turns him into an average QB the rest of his career..Will the 2 Super Bowls be enough? Tough to say...With Warner, he has the numbers. He has the regular season and Super MVPs already under his belt. 2 rings for him would just be the icing on the cake and help to wipe away those 3-4 bad years he had in between. Big ben is still going to need a few more years of pro Bowl/All-Pro level production before we can say that he is HOF material. He seems to be on that path, but as we've seen with many guys in the past who looked to be HOF bound, one injury can end that talk quickly.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Doc
Jasen
Doc
<< <i>Didn't know if you guys noticed or not but the Packers hired Kevin Greene to be their new linebackers coach. He was selling real estate in Florida but once the Pack hired Dom Capers he became interested and the Packers offered him his first NFL coaching job. I hope he does well, it may boost his chances of someday joining the HOF.
Doc >>
Being a real estate agent in Florida will probably hurt his chances at the HOF though
Have fun at the Super Bowl Jasen, very cool that your going!! I wish your Cardinals luck man, its going to be a good game. I get the feeling Im going to have to live with this sig line for a few more months.
As the old saying goes, the best defense is a good offense, and the Cards offense seems to be hitting their stride at the right time.
joe
<< <i>Didn't know if you guys noticed or not but the Packers hired Kevin Greene to be their new linebackers coach. He was selling real estate in Florida but once the Pack hired Dom Capers he became interested and the Packers offered him his first NFL coaching job. I hope he does well, it may boost his chances of someday joining the HOF.
Doc >>
I hope it improves his chances as well. He was a great OLB.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Andy
<< <i>Not sure if anyone here was tracking my PSA 9 '71 Charlie Sanders, but I'd be open to a trade or trade plus cash for it. LMK.
Andy >>
How much in trade value?
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Cris Carter
4. Bob Hayes
5. Ralph Wilson
6. Claude Humphrey
7. Richard Dent
8. Randall McDaniel
9. Derrick Thomas
10. Shannon Sharpe
11. Bob Kuechenberg
12. Russ Grimm
13. Paul Tagliabue
14. Dermontti Dawson
15. John Randle
16. Andre Reed
17. Cortez Kennedy
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Did someone drop out of this set? I noticed I'm now in the top 10.......
Looks like SKINSFAN (Art Miller) dropped off, he was ranked like 6th at almost 100% completion. He must be selling his stuff, I remember hearing that he had sold his top notch 1963 Topps set.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Dave Scheiber, Times Staff Writer
Posted: Jan 30, 2009 11:50 AM
TAMPA — Early Saturday morning, a group of veteran sportswriters will convene behind closed doors at the Tampa Convention Center and forever change the lives and legacies of football greats they once covered.
It is a Super Bowl event that goes unnoticed each year to the outside world; a day that thrusts journalists into an intense, high-stakes game of power and persuasion — and relegates marquee NFL names to the sidelines, waiting tensely for the outcome.
The team that counts in this case consists of 44 football scribes, who prepare all year for this moment: the presentations, discussions and often heated debate that determine which of 17 finalists will make the Pro Football Hall of Fame and which may never get another shot.
The writers — representing each of the NFL's 32 teams, plus at-large representatives — will make impassioned pitches on behalf of the players, coaches or executives tied to the team the reporter covers.
At times, they are transformed into trial lawyers, making closing arguments with carefully prepared comments and meticulously researched statistics, all with no extra compensation.
Former Tampa Tribune sports editor Tom McEwen remembers the pressure surrounding his presentation of Lee Roy Selmon, whose superlative play as a Buc defensive end for nine seasons made him eligible for induction in 1995. But the fact that the team was so bad for much of Selmon's reign made it a challenge.
"It wasn't a slam dunk by any means — it is the only time that I woke up in the middle of the night to make changes and I came into the meeting with something I felt was beautifully crafted," he said. McEwen, a polished public speaker, wove humor with evidence of Selmon's impact on the field and to the franchise as a whole. And he got the job done, swaying at least several members who had not planned to vote for Selmon.
For McEwen, the reward was plentiful: "It's one of the great pleasures of my life that Lee Roy made it on the first ballot."
•••
The sense of duty is shared by every selector. Unlike the Baseball Hall of Fame, which relies on a straight-up vote of baseball writers, this job starts each February when the Hall of Fame sends the selectors a list of some 130 nominees retired for the mandatory five years.
Many pore through record books, search the Web, and interview former players and executives to prepare. A mail-in vote whittles the number to 25 and a second one narrows it 15, while a subcommittee travels to Canton each August to review senior nominees and selects two.
Then, the day before every Super Bowl, selectors go into the meeting at roughly 7:30 a.m. armed with 17 names.
They emerge some six grueling hours later with a list of new inductees — a maximum of five from the modern era and two old-timers, though the final number depends on how many receive the required minimum of 80 percent of the vote.
"I want to tell you, it's one of my very favorite events each year, just because of the tremendous responsibility," said Leonard Shapiro, who covered the Redskins in the '70s and '80s for the Washington Post and has served as a Hall of Fame selector for more than two decades. "You're affecting people's lives. And for guys who make it to the final five and don't get 80 percent, it just kills me."
•••
The process could be as simple as former San Francisco Chronicle writer Ira Miller, the longtime 49ers beat man who presented for Joe Montana in 2000.
"What I said was, 'I can talk for a minute and you can go to the restroom or we can just move on,' " Miller recalled. "Cooper Rollow (the former Chicago Tribune sports editor) did that with Walter Payton. He stood up, said 'Walter Payton' — and sat down."
For towering players such as Montana and Payton, the selection committee's work is a breeze. But other decisions can spark sharp disagreements, such as the Giants' Lawrence Taylor, one of the all-time great linebackers, but a player also known for his two cocaine-related arrests.
"The Lawrence Taylor vote was particularly contentious," Shapiro said. "One of the rules of our bylaws we are only supposed to consider on-field accomplishments, not off-field behavior. But human nature makes it hard to screen that out. When Taylor came up, it was a very heated discussion. One voter said, I know what the rules are, but I have a problem voting Lawence Taylor into the Hall because I think it sends the wrong message."
Taylor prevailed. On the other hand, retired NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue and the late "Bullet Bob" Hayes, the speed-demon wide receiver for the Dallas Cowboys, haven't been so lucky.
Tagliabue has missed the final cut the last two years, while Hayes fell short in 2004.
Yet their names will be up for a vote again Saturday, along with 15 other finalists, including three of the sport's stellar defensive ends from the past 30 years — Bruce Smith, Claude Humphrey and Richard Dent; Rod Woodson, the defensive back extraordinaire for the '90s Steelers; former Redskin guard and "Hog" Russ Grimm (now coaching with the Cardinals); dominating tight end Shannon Sharpe; and Cris Carter and Andre Reed, once two of the league's top wide receivers.
"The only one I think is a lock is Bruce Smith, because he's one of the greatest pass-rushers ever, and I believe Rod Woodson and Shannon Sharpe deserve to be in there," said John McClain of the Houston Chronicle, a 16-year selector. "But I don't think any deserve to be in there before Bob Hayes and Claude Humphrey."
McClain, speaking for Humphrey, has helped propel four Oilers into the Hall: defensive end Elvin Bethea, quarterback Warren Moon, and linemen Mike Munchak and Bruce Matthews.
With Moon, there were obstacles. "The objections were that he had never been in a championship game or a Super Bowl, and he played the run-and-shoot his whole career, so he should have good stats," McClain said. "But I showed how he played in the run-and-shoot only three-and-a-half years and then had his best season in Minnesota playing in a conventional system."
He laid out how Moon did things at 40 that no other quarterback did, and compared him favorably to Dan Fouts, who never played in a Super Bowl.
"My thought on Moon going in was 'probably not,' and then I voted for him," said Sports Illustrated NFL writer Peter King. "And that rarely, rarely happens with me in 17 years of doing this. I always pay attention to the presentation — and I was really convinced by the tremendous body of evidence from McLain."
•••
A similar challenge is faced today by Rick Gosselin of the Dallas Morning News. He is the presenter for Bob Hayes and has prepared impressive comparative stats that show his impact:
"His average touchdown — one every 5.2 career catches; Lynn Swann (a Hall of Famer since 2001) one every 6.8, Jerry Rice (not yet eligible) one every 7.8, Cris Carter one every 8.5 ..."
So what's not to like? Well, last time around, Hayes was criticized for keeping his hands tucked in the front of his pants in the minus-20-degree Green Bay weather in the legendary "Ice Bowl" game of 1967. His history of drug abuse may have worked against him, despite the guidelines. The vote prompted Sports Illustrated's Paul Zimmerman to resign in protest. But today may bring a different result for the Florida native who died in 2002.
Tagliabue has detractors — a contingent from the West Coast, most vocally Ira Miller, who believes the commissioner fell short in key areas, such as bringing a new team to Los Angeles in place of the Rams and the last collective bargaining agreement. But he has supporters such as Shapiro, who stresses that Tagliabue oversaw many advances, including the "Rooney Rule," requiring that minority candidates be interviewed for head coaching jobs.
There are no guarantees, except that the group, including two women, will be ready. Voting is secret, and results aren't revealed until they are televised at 2:30. That's when the writers get their real reward: "When you see the faces of the ones who made it," McClain said, "smiling like kids on Christmas morning."
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Makes you wonder the effect the presenters have on the selections. How much weight they put on the presenter vs the players ability.
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Very good article.
Makes you wonder the effect the presenters have on the selections. How much weight they put on the presenter vs the players ability. >>
I would say:
95% Players ability
5% Presenter
It SHOULD be 0% presenter, but that just isn't realistic when you are talking about media types, many of which are known to carry bias. The other issue which I had never really considered before just a few days ago....
The ORDER in which the presentations are given...If each presentation last approx. 10 minutes, how much attention is being paid to those which are given #16 and #17? After 2+ hours of listening to ANYONE talk I start zoning out myself...lol...I've been trying to find out the last day or so WHO exactly gets to choose the order? I know for a fact it isn't alphabetical, or by team..So who and how is that decided? For the borderline guys, it COULD mean the difference in those last couple of votes they need.
It does help explain some of the surprises over the years..Most notably last year having Fred Dean and Andre Tippett seemingly leapfrog guys who were though to have more support like Cris Carter, Kuechenberg, Derrick Thomas, Dent, etc.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jaesn
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
<< <i>Any thoughts on whether the Cardinals in the game will help Russ Grimm? I can't believe Tipp got in last year over D.Thomas....still scratching my head on that one.
Jaesn >>
I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe that it will..Although anything that gets your name out there a bit more helps...
I think that Grimm has a good chance of making the cutdown from 15-10 this time , along with McDaniel and Kuech, but in the end, that might hurt all 3. AndI think McDaniel and Kuech still have more support among the voters than Grimm. Last year McDaniel and Kuech made the cutdown to 10, but Grimm did not. That 10th spot will come down to Grimm and Tagliabue IMO..The other 9 seem to be pretty solidly locked into the top 10 modern candidates right now..(The 9 below). I will be shocked if any of the other modern guys make it outside of the 9 listed here. These have been the guys with the most buzz the past couple of weeks...In fact, really haven't heard any push at all for any of the other modern guys...
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Cris Carter
4. Ralph Wilson
5. Richard Dent
6. Randall McDaniel
7. Derrick Thomas
8. Shannon Sharpe
9. Bob Kuechenberg
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>THis would have been a great year for Wehrli.......Just missed it..LOL.. >>
Ottis Anderson? Neil Lomax or Roy Green?? Pat Tillman???
Jasen
1. Bruce Smith
2. Rod Woodson
3. Cris Carter
4. Bob Hayes
5. Shannon Sharpe (longshot)
-----------------------
Just missing out:
Derrick Thomas
Randall McDaniel
Ralph Wilson
Claude Humphrey
Richard Dent
Bob Kuechenberg
Dermontti Dawson
Paul Tagliabue
John Randle
Andre Reed
Cortez Kennedy
Russ Grimm
Seems to be some posturing for Derrick Thomas, too. I certainly hope not. Too one dimensional and to have him go in the same year as Bruce Smith is an insult to Smith's all-around dominance and performance at the position.