Was Eagle Eye Rick Snow Right or Wrong????

wrighty

Ok this has been bothering me for a few months now and after sending a PM to someone here they suggested I ask the forum.
A couple of months ago I purchase 5 raw Indian Head Cents from Rick Snow, he described them as either MS63 or MS64 that's it. I pay for the coins they are shipped to me and I promptly send them off to PCGS for grading. After waiting I get the coins back ALL in body bags labeled, cleaned, or artificially colored. I call up Rick and tell him what happened. First of all he says, "you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". Then he proceeds to tell me something along the lines of, "If you had read my books you would know that a coin can be described as MS63 or MS64 if it has been lightly cleaned or dipped." I replied, "I am relying on you as the fore most expert in the field on Indian Head Cents I thought you would have added in the description something about the coins being cleaned in the past." He told me I should have let him know that I wanted to send the coins off and he would have told me if they would slab them or not. After a little more discussion he offered to buy the coins back at 75% of what I paid for them 1 month earlier. Net Net after the grading fees, shipping , and the 25% haircut I was out about $500 and had no coins. Please give me your thoughts!!!!

millennium

OUCH........There are two sides to a story......I'd like the hear the other one too before I make a stupid comment......

cladking

I don't think he was wrong but you certainly were not. It looks like a simple misunderstanding
that I hope the parties can rectify.

Good luck.

ziggy29

My thought is that I'd wait to hear the other side of the story before rendering an opinion.

mercurydimeguy

Fairtraderz the sequel --

segoja

Rick is very up front with his opinions on MS63/64 Indian Cents.

He will openly tell you that many have been lightly cleaned or retoned. Some grade other's don't.

Not sure the value of the coins, but if you liked the coins raw, why not just keep them or buy them in holders to start with???

I'm very concerned with PCGS grading now a days, and am very reluctant to buy raw coins, unless I'm damn sure they will grade.

Unless you had the conversation with Rick before hand, I think you took the risk on yourself by sending the coins in. Had they graded MS65, would you feel obligated to send Rick some cash???

Bottom line, an open and honest relationship with a dealer is the bets way to go. They will normally tell you exactly what is going on!!!

Good Luck!!!!

clevegreg

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Fairlaneman

If this story is completely true and factual you got shafted big time.

Since when is a cleaned/retoned coin MS63 ? This has the same sound to it as the junk that went on in the 80's.

Ken

robertpr

Unless you had the conversation with Rick before hand, I think you took the risk on yourself by sending the coins in. Had they graded MS65, would you feel obligated to send Rick some cash???

Very true statement. If you knew Rick was the "fore most [sic] expert in the field on Indian Head Cents" don't you think he would have sent the coins in to be slabbed himself if they would grade?

Barry

...don't you think he would have sent the coins in to be slabbed himself if they would grade?

Spend $30 + postage to slab a $50 coin? As Rick said, "not too smart."

pursuitofliberty

I think I'd need to hear the whole story ... but as was mentioned

If this story is completely true and factual you got shafted big time.

Since when is a cleaned/retoned coin MS63 ? This has the same sound to it as the junk that went on in the 80's.

FatMan

5 out of 5 as Advertised MS63 IHC baggedby PCGS? Certainly on the surface it appears problematic. I don't know squat about copper so I will keep my mouth shut and keep reading.

mgoodm3

Grading is subjective. Who's right PCGS or Rick? what's your take on the cents?

291fifth

If the coins were lightly cleaned/dipped they should have been described as being lightly cleaned/dipped.

TheRaven

Curious situation, why did you find the need to slab the coins?

Do you have pictures of these coins?

Jcarney

<< <i>If the coins were lightly cleaned/dipped they should have been described as being lightly cleaned/dipped. >>

wrighty

I'm NOT Rick Snow bashing just to make that clear. I guess part of the blame is with me for not asking more detail about the coins. What I did was put my full trust in his expertise and I thought that if the coins were cleaned in the past it would have been mentioned to me. I have bought a few coins from Rick before this incident both slabbed and raw that I sent off to PCGS all were slabbed in the past. So going on that track record I thought these would slab as well. I guess lesson learned by a working man coin collector trying to assemble a nice set of PCGS slabbed IHC. No I don't have any pictures because I sent the coins off to PCGS, got them back in bags and then mailed them back to Rick.

originalisbest

If the coins were messed with then they should've been described as such. Not that I don't realize it's "acceptable" to have a light cleaning on some coins "not worth more than $50" etc - but it doesn't mean I want them, nor do I expect to get them, if that has not been revealed in the coin's description.

DickyBetz

I thought you were Shylock until half way through the story. There should be a rule against two people having the same icon.

I predict that this one will go over 200.

Tarmac

Please wait your turn. We are still roasting unFairtraderz.

11 posts in 2 years? I thought I posted sparingly.


Edited to add: now you know if an expensive coin is out of a PCGS/NGC holder there is a reason. No free lunch and no crying in coins!

tmot99

Of course two sides to a story, and I will wait to hear the other side.

However, unlike what others have said, it is none of anyone else's business if you want them slabbed. It might not make financial sense but maybe you are doing it for a grading set or are building a registry set. It doesn't matter.

Craton

<< <i>

<< <i>If the coins were lightly cleaned/dipped they should have been described as being lightly cleaned/dipped. >>



>>



So do I. If Rick knew that they were cleaned then that is how they should have been described.
I see you guys asking why he would have paid to have them slabbed knowing that they were 63's ...... they are his coins to slab if he likes. I'd be shocked if I was in his shoes!

Coin Finder

I don,t know.

I think rick is a top notch guy and I do trust him. We all have paid our dues in this hobby and the education can sting somtimes. I know you do not want to hear this right now, but try and learn from this. Could you recognize another MS63 cleaned or AT Indian?

Tbig

Russ

The fact that PCGS bodybagged them does not necessarily mean the coins deserved it. PCGS is not infallible.

Russ, NCNE

Fairlaneman

<< <i>I guess part of the blame is with me for not asking more detail about the coins. >>



So a collector is suppose to ask a million questions about a MS63 coin that is purchased from the foremost authority of the series ? I think not. You purchased from the seller mostly because of the reputation and should have received nice coins. Maybe if one or two had bagged there would be no gripe. But all five.....

Are you sure there was no mention of light cleaning or retone ?

Ken

wrighty

People keep saying there are 2 sides to every story, and so forth. The story isn't very complex.
1) The coins were not described as cleaned
2) I did not ask if they had been cleaned.
3) I had bought raw coins from Rick in the past and they had all slabbed
4) PCGS body bagged all of them
5) I sold them back to Rick at 75% of my cost
6) I learned a lesson.

CTcollector

<< <i>I'm NOT Rick Snow bashing just to make that clear. I guess part of the blame is with me for not asking more detail about the coins. What I did was put my full trust in his expertise and I thought that if the coins were cleaned in the past it would have been mentioned to me. I have bought a few coins from Rick before this incident both slabbed and raw that I sent off to PCGS all were slabbed in the past. So going on that track record I thought these would slab as well. I guess lesson learned by a working man coin collector trying to assemble a nice set of PCGS slabbed IHC. No I don't have any pictures because I sent the coins off to PCGS, got them back in bags and then mailed them back to Rick. >>



If what you say is accurate, don't blame yourself. If you put your trust into a seller and they let you down its time to move on to a new dealer. Someone who stands by their coins. Take Rare Coins of New Hampshire for instance - they guarantee their raw coins will certify at the grade they advertise. So in your current case, you would recieve 100% of your money back versus 75% and a guilt trip.

This is good info to know - thanks for posting.

JRocco

I have always found it a good habit to ask a dealer BEFORE I pay for a coin if he thinks the coin is original or messed with if you can't make the call yourself. Most decent dealers will tell you at that point even if they have been quiet about it before you asked.

jamesfsm

Agree. The seller is the #1 expert on IHC in the world. If he sold these as MS63-64's, the majority should not have been BB'd by PCGS.

How many questions ought a buyer ask of such an expert/dealer whose coins are not cheap.

RYK

Decent dealers should volunteer this information freely, especially those who are market makers and specialists for a series. Of course, it is possible that Rick Snow felt the coins were market-acceptable and would grade and was wrong, but I highly doubt that he did not recognize that coins had been worked.

Djord

Should have been described CLEANED net grade MS63/64. To not call out a cleaning is deceptive in the least.
Why does Anacs mark cleaned net details MS63? PCGS body bags cleaned coins.
So if I buy any raw coins now and it is advertised as MS63, I should expect it to be cleaned unless I ask.
If the guy sold him cleaned coins and stated that you should have told me you were going to grade them,
what type of crap is that!

BigE2

Huh. Interesting thread. My thought is this: Are dipped/cleaned coins so prevalent and acceptable that they no longer need to be mentioned as such by a reputable dealer?
I only know Rick Snow by his reputation and his writings. His books have been a valuable resource for me and I agree that dipped coins may grade MS63 or higher but should be noted as such if the seller has the knowledge of it.

What suprises me most is paying you 75% of what you paid for them. I would have thought a full refund would have been in order. The grading fees would have been your loss.

Just my humble opinion.

CalGold

This is why dealers anonymously dump their higher priced dogs into auctions. The buyer gets hosed but there's no retribution.

CG

Gemineye

<< <i> First of all he says, "you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". Then he proceeds to tell me something along the lines of, "If you had read my books you would know that a coin can be described as MS63 or MS64 if it has been lightly cleaned or dipped." >>



Well here's my ..two cents.....I didn't know that before I dealt with a reputable dealer to buy his coins ,I had to read his book first.It just seems the more your into the hobby you should BETTER educate yourself. It's sad ......it really is................JMO................

lloydmincy

O.K. Now you know. You only lost $500. Not a bad lesson. Want to hear my losses in the past? Trust me, it would make you feel better.

Fairlaneman

Dealer opinions and collector opinions are sure different !

Ken

Fairlaneman

<< <i>

<< <i>-no one alive to today will gaurantee anything PCGS does especially in copper. >>



I believe Tonelover does. >>



and Dale Williams.

These two guys must be nuts, Huh ?

Ken

Russellp23

<< <i>Common sense dictates that in todays numismatic world, unless a coin is from a FRESH OLD TIME Collection, you have to ask why it has not been graded. If you are not an expert, you are better off buying graded coins. Sometimes looking for a bargain will cost you dearly. >>



I really respect Legend and everything she says, but I don't think this is your fault at all. Legend when you as a dealer (reputable) say something is MS63/64, whatever, why shouldn't you stand behind that? I would think Wrighty went in with Rick thinking he was "learning" from the master. His reputation alone would tell me that he could be trusted and wouldn't take $500 from the poor guy.

FatMan

<< <i>So my final opinon, BOTH parties were wrong.... >>

I don't get it. If a leading specialty dealer lists a coin as MS63, what are my responsibilities other than to purchase them as MS63 at most likely near to full retail. Why should I have to grill the specialist to insure what he selling is really as he has represented it. Now I understand that PCGS is bit screwy at times, but 5 out of 5? C'mon. On the surface this stinks.

I guess what really scratches my butt is the fact that after PCGS indicated the coins were not as described, a specialist dealer did not make the buyer whole. 75% of sales price. That is unacceptable to me. I'm afraid that unless I hear something to the contrary this dealer has been removed from my list.

And why does the buyer have to justify sending the coins to PCGS? That is his business and no one elses.

CalGold

The sad part of this thread is that a collector avoided the local fly by night wannabies and went to a dealer who has the reputation of being one of if not the foremost expert in the field. I can see how someone would think that buying a raw coin from such a dealer was “safe” and if the coins were not slabbed perhaps its because the value of the coins did not merit the cost of grading. Sadly, the message being sent is “trust no one.” Even if the coins were to grade on resubmission, the message is much the same because it means that you can't even trust an independent TPG.

The best most of us can hope for when we buy coins is to not get skinned alive. And if you buy slabbed coins you probably won’t know if the dealer has your hide hanging on his wall until you go to sell. So you are just postponing coming to grips with the grim reality.

CG

edited to fix some typos.

Nic

Well said Fats.

K

morgannut2

--Before Rick posts he should say "I stand behind my coins 100%, there is a 3% restocking fee--and I don't think they were cleaned-- I am returning your money but in the future ask for a full description"
BTW--PCGS has now offically killed the raw coin market, for no apparent reason!

ER

<< <i>Ok this has been bothering me for a few months now and after sending a PM to someone here they suggested I ask the forum.
A couple of months ago I purchase 5 raw Indian Head Cents from Rick Snow, he described them as either MS63 or MS64 that's it. I pay for the coins they are shipped to me and I promptly send them off to PCGS for grading. After waiting I get the coins back ALL in body bags labeled, cleaned, or artificially colored. I call up Rick and tell him what happened. First of all he says, "you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". Then he proceeds to tell me something along the lines of, "If you had read my books you would know that a coin can be described as MS63 or MS64 if it has been lightly cleaned or dipped." I replied, "I am relying on you as the fore most expert in the field on Indian Head Cents I thought you would have added in the description something about the coins being cleaned in the past." He told me I should have let him know that I wanted to send the coins off and he would have told me if they would slab them or not. After a little more discussion he offered to buy the coins back at 75% of what I paid for them 1 month earlier. Net Net after the grading fees, shipping , and the 25% haircut I was out about $500 and had no coins. Please give me your thoughts!!!! >>



If I were Mr. Snow, I would have offered to buy them back at the original full prices, plus S&H, rather than giving excuses.

tjkillian

Rick Snow is a great person and dealer. That being said, if he sold you some indian cents that he said were MS-63 or MS-64 but did not say they were cleaned, but HE KNEW they were cleaned, that is not good. There was no need for him to know what you were going to do with the coins. I would assume any coin sold could be potentially sent to PCGS for grading. Very few dealers will guarantee what a coin will grade at PCGS, but if a foremost expert on a series knows that they will bodybag at PCGS for problems, those problems should be disclosed BEFORE the sale. Many folks depend upon an honest dealer's opinion before making a purchase.

I would really like to hear Rick Snow's side to the story before attempting to comment further.

Tom

ziggy29

<< <i>If I were Mr. Snow, I would have offered to buy them back at the original full prices, plus S&H, rather than giving excuses. >>

As would I.

But the truth is that we have one person's view of a transaction, and there are two sides of every story. That so many people are taking the original account of the transaction as the undisputed gospel truth is unnerving to me.

flaminio

<< <i>So my final opinon, BOTH parties were wrong.... >>

What, again? Can no one do right in numismatics?

ER

<< <i>

<< <i>If I were Mr. Snow, I would have offered to buy them back at the original full prices, plus S&H, rather than giving excuses. >>

As would I.

But the truth is that we have one person's view of a transaction, and there are two sides of every story. That so many people are taking the original account of the transaction as the undisputed gospel truth is unnerving to me. >>


That's why I quoted the original post.

Gemineye

<< <i>Oh no, here we go again...
So my final opinon, BOTH parties were wrong.... >>



Well I guess you feel that way because you feel qualified to grade your own coins and not send them to the TPG.Some might want the TPG holders and have their coins graded again by someone else.


<< <i>First of all he says, "you are sending off 63's for grading, not too smart". >>


Gee.. do you realy say that to your buyer.........???........Maybe you have a good relationship...!!!???.......THEN .. tell him the coins are cleaned..................!!!!!!!!!!!

Russellp23

<< <i>1) The coins were not described as cleaned >>




<< <i>2) I did not ask if they had been cleaned. >>




<< <i>3) I had bought raw coins from Rick in the past and they had all slabbed >>




<< <i>4) PCGS body bagged all of them >>




<< <i>5) I sold them back to Rick at 75% of my cost >>




<< <i>6) I learned a lesson. >>



It doesn't get any clearer than this, I was headed to Rick for help getting my copper started,won't happen now!

perfectstrike

I'm not sure this has a right or wrong. But if not for these boards and people taking the time to explain, that could have been me buying IHC's two years ago. Since then, I've read and even reread the books, talked to the experts and even signed up for Ricks class last summer. Working with a dealer, even a great one, is a two way education and trust process. Ideally the dealer should know the collector's expertise level and the collector should make some effort to ensure the dealer has this gauged properly. I may take some heat here, but when I make a $500-$1000 purchase I'm counting 80-90% on my expertise. I can count the over $1000 puchases I've made on one hand to allow others to make a judgement.

David

ColonialCoinUnion

75%. Hmmm.