<< <i> Yes, I am saying that, and so is PCGS, apparantly. You're digging yourself into a deeper hole now. >>
A mint state coin, also known as "uncirculated," is, theoretically, a coin which has not seen circulation.
If you take a nice coin that you receive in change at the grocery store, a shiny new nickel, say, and submit it to a reputable grading service, it will be returned, graded in a nice plastic container, with a grade such as ms63 or maybe even ms64 or ms65, depending on the severity and placement of your so-called grade limiting marks. It could have "circulated" for some time but it will come back, slabbed and certified, as "mint state."
Of course, a coin which never actually made it into merchant's till, which happened to just have been rubbed with some other coins in a mint bag, then perhaps wiped gently with a handkerchief by some long-ago owner, (maybe even seasoned with some nice extra virgin olive oil), is returned from the same reputable grading service because smoeone actually tried to "take care" of the coin. It is not slabbed and certified as "mint state," yet it is arguably far more uncirulated than the first example.
<< <i>As for the transaction history, these were part of a raw set I took on consignment (because at the price it took to get it, it didn't make sense to buy it outright) I make 10% on consignments >>
<< <i>I think his offer to buy them back @ 75% is quite reasonable. >>
10% commission....25% buyback??
Lets see??? Consigned $100.00........sell for $110.00.....unhappy customer......buyback for $82.50?????
<< <i>If I were (WRIGHTY) I would be looking for a new dealer. Sounds like Rick only made good on the deal (100% money back ) because of the post here. Rick should have been up front with the cleaned coins. >>
So the seller gives the buyer an adequate resolution, mutually agreeable - and you still want to hang him?
<< <i> Lets see??? Consigned $100.00........sell for $110.00.....unhappy customer......buyback for $82.50????? >>
One serious issue here is how long did it take the buyer to realize he didn't like the coins.
His problem came after they were returned by pcgs after submission, not immediately upon receipt of coins he wanted to send right back.
We all have read about and even experienced first hand how long an economy submission can take. Is this something a seller is supposed to just eat whenever a grading service, after a 10 second perusal of a coin, decides to send a coin back ungraded?
Absent an agreement that provides an extension of a return privilege to cover the time required to have a tpg look at a coin, how long is a seller supposed to extend a return privilege?
Rick is no "fairtrader" in my book. (and i mean that in a good way!)
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling.
I think this should have been handled privately, either in person or by phone. From a business point of view, I probably would have offered a full refund and made a mental note to not deal with this client in the future. Although there are two sides to every story, I don't think anything good can come out of this thread.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
>>
I agree as well. Does anyone disagree? I skimmed some of the prior pages, and the majority opinion seems to be he's dead wrong. Off with his balls. [insert the guillotine icon].
Mr. Snow. Open up your copy of Travers’ Survival Manual to the “interview” with the sleazy coin doctoring dealer. When you come to the end you will see Travers’ question about selling doctored coins to collectors vs. dealers. The sleazy guy says something to the effect that if he is dealing with a collector he will always tell him that a coin is not original even if the collector fails to ask, otherwise the collector might say something bad about him. Now read that part again, and again and again...
"Most coins in MS63 or lower are found with RB or BN designations. MS63RD coins do exist, but beware of cleaned examples sold as red without mention of the cleaning."
I think this should have been handled privately, either in person or by phone.
You're probably right.
From a business point of view, I probably would have offered a full refund and made a mental note to not deal with this client in the future.
Let me get this straight: Mental note - this customer wasn't happy with cleaned junk that I passed off as MS63 - avoid in the future.
There are certainly enough collectors who can't tell crap from original coins (the full-page Coin World dealers are thriving, right?), but those that want problem-free coins shouold be avoided? I don't get it.
<< <i>I think this should have been handled privately, either in person or by phone.
You're probably right.
From a business point of view, I probably would have offered a full refund and made a mental note to not deal with this client in the future.
Let me get this straight: Mental note - this customer wasn't happy with cleaned junk that I passed off as MS63 - avoid in the future.
There are certainly enough collectors who can't tell crap from original coins (the full-page Coin World dealers are thriving, right?), but those that want problem-free coins shouold be avoided? I don't get it. >>
The grading services are not infallible. Who is to say that the coins were junk or not (or whether they were cleaned to a point that they could not be graded on a Monday, but might be graded on a Tuesday?) No one wins here so it is best to cut the losses and you will never get agreement on whether the coins were truly MS-63 or not.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. THE WERE SOME GOOD COMMENTS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION A GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE USED THIS TO GET ON A BAND WAGON AND STRING SOMEONE UP. MY INTENTION WAS TO GET FEEDBACK NOT TO BAD MOUTH RICK SNOW. AS I MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH SLABBED AND RAW COINS FROM HIM BEFORE THIS AND HAVE BEEN PLEASED THIS INCIDENT TOOK ME BY SURPRISE AND I WANTED INTELLIGENT INPUT. I SPOKE TO RICK AND HE LOCATED THE OLD RECEIPTS AND MAY POST THE PICTURES IF HE STILL HAS THEM. THERE WERE 6 COINS HE GRADED 2 IN 64 AND THE OTHER 4 63'S. AND YES THE BUYER MYSELF SHOULD HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COINS WHICH I ALREADY STATED I DID NOT. MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS. I HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANY RAW INDIANS SINCE. IN ADDITION DOING SOME QUICK MATH WITH RICK MY TOTAL LOSS INCLUDING THE BUYBACK, GRADING FEES, SHIPPING, INSURANCE ETC WAS ABOUT $400, I HAD PREVIOUSLEY STATED ABOUT $500 SO I WAS MISTAKEN. HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME.
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling. >>
I think this quote nails it for me. You expect this type of behavior from a less reputable dealer. Additionally, I become cautious of a seller once they invoke the "market acceptable" or "blame the buyer" defense. Either you're a cut above your peers in the industry or you are just like everyone else.
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling. >>
I think this quote nails it for me. You expect this type of behavior from a less reputable dealer. Additionally, I become cautious of a seller once they invoke the "market acceptable" or "blame the buyer" defense. Either you're a cut above your peers in the industry or you are just like everyone else. >>
<< <i>OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. THE WERE SOME GOOD COMMENTS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION A GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE USED THIS TO GET ON A BAND WAGON AND STRING SOMEONE UP. MY INTENTION WAS TO GET FEEDBACK NOT TO BAD MOUTH RICK SNOW. AS I MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH SLABBED AND RAW COINS FROM HIM BEFORE THIS AND HAVE BEEN PLEASED THIS INCIDENT TOOK ME BY SURPRISE AND I WANTED INTELLIGENT INPUT. I SPOKE TO RICK AND HE LOCATED THE OLD RECEIPTS AND MAY POST THE PICTURES IF HE STILL HAS THEM. THERE WERE 6 COINS HE GRADED 2 IN 64 AND THE OTHER 4 63'S. AND YES THE BUYER MYSELF SHOULD HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COINS WHICH I ALREADY STATED I DID NOT. MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS. I HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANY RAW INDIANS SINCE. IN ADDITION DOING SOME QUICK MATH WITH RICK MY TOTAL LOSS INCLUDING THE BUYBACK, GRADING FEES, SHIPPING, INSURANCE ETC WAS ABOUT $400, I HAD PREVIOUSLEY STATED ABOUT $500 SO I WAS MISTAKEN. HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME. >>
You asked for opinions, you got them. You asked for feedbacks, you got them. What the hell are you yelling about?
<< <i>OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. THE WERE SOME GOOD COMMENTS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION A GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE USED THIS TO GET ON A BAND WAGON AND STRING SOMEONE UP. MY INTENTION WAS TO GET FEEDBACK NOT TO BAD MOUTH RICK SNOW. AS I MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH SLABBED AND RAW COINS FROM HIM BEFORE THIS AND HAVE BEEN PLEASED THIS INCIDENT TOOK ME BY SURPRISE AND I WANTED INTELLIGENT INPUT. I SPOKE TO RICK AND HE LOCATED THE OLD RECEIPTS AND MAY POST THE PICTURES IF HE STILL HAS THEM. THERE WERE 6 COINS HE GRADED 2 IN 64 AND THE OTHER 4 63'S. AND YES THE BUYER MYSELF SHOULD HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COINS WHICH I ALREADY STATED I DID NOT. MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS. I HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANY RAW INDIANS SINCE. IN ADDITION DOING SOME QUICK MATH WITH RICK MY TOTAL LOSS INCLUDING THE BUYBACK, GRADING FEES, SHIPPING, INSURANCE ETC WAS ABOUT $400, I HAD PREVIOUSLEY STATED ABOUT $500 SO I WAS MISTAKEN. HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME. >>
If you want to keep taking on blame, go right ahead. But I do think you did a service to the collector community by bringing this situation to light. Individuals will now know to read/decipher the "fine print" or to request the appropriate disclosure prior to purchase.
It happened back in October 2005. That's why I mixed it up with the recent order.
I spoke with the guy who sent the recent e-mail (who I confused with wrighty) and he said we have no problem.
I spoke with wrighty and he said we have no problem.
Here are the coins with their original descriptions:
1891 MS-63RB 99% RED. Very lustrous. Looks like a gem full red but the color is a little too bright. $75
1889 MS-63RB 99% RED. Very lustrous. Looks like a gem full red but the color is a little pasty. $75
1894 MS-64RB 90% RED. Beautiful with a warm golden color. Could grade 65RB. $200
1895 MS-64RB 99% RED. Very close to gem. $135
1896 MS-63RB 95% RED. Blazing! Looks like gem full red. $80
1897 MS-63RB 99% RED. Great luster. Just a few light marks. $60
The total order was $625. The coins were repurchased for $468 or so. (Probably $475) That's $150 difference. Now that I have had time to refresh my memory of this 6-month-old deal, I think that some of the obviously cleaned coins were mentioned properly. The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious.
I apologized to Wrighty for saying things that were not even about this 6-month old deal. I confused it with a recent deal, which was also worked out to everyone’s satisfaction.
I think everyone is being much too hard on Rick. This is copper we are talking about. A significant percentage of IHC and earlier copper in first tier grading company holders have been conserved. This certainly is market acceptable. Does that mean cleaned? 5 years ago I would have said yes, now I've learned enough to be unsure how to answer that one. Are cleaned MS IHC's market acceptable, absolutely. My attitude toward what I'm willing to accept for MS IHC's has changed as I've learned. If a beautiful but cleaned MS63 is all I can afford to upgrade a Dansco slot, that's a great choice for me. My attitude is much different for Large Cents. Well circulated examples are good enough for me. I don't have the years left to learn enough. Not to leave the Lincoln collectors out, but the population of original untouched early Lincolns (including holdered) is steadily declining.
I may get some flack for my comments, but 2 weeks of talking to people at ANA summer sessions is worth more than 10 years of personal effort to this private collector.
<< <i>MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS >>
This is the troubling part. There are a million novices out there and the dealers know it. The thing that is sticking people's craw here is that many of feel that the collector should not have to ask and should not have to fear buying raw from a specialist.
Edited to add: Based on your pics and desriptions Rick the only coin that would raise a flag is the first with the "too bright" and arguably the "pasty" in the second one but that could just be explaining why it was not full red. But the others give no inkling of warning and at least one evokes a higher grade.
Its kind of like a novice who bought WorldCom stock relying on the accuracy of a company's financial statements. They didn't know they should have asked the CFO if he had cooked the books.
I'm not here to bash on anyone but feel free to bash on me if you choose for making the following statement.....
I find these 2 statements particularly troubling for a few reasons....
<< <i>The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious. >>
Cleaned is cleaned and should be noted regardless of grade and price.
"THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. "
This forum is no longer the educational entity it once was. It used to be a place where expert advice could be easily obtained. It has since become a forum where they hang the dealer first and sort it out later which is why many dealers don't post here anymore or won't at all. Something like the incident posted here should have been handled privately, if it could not be resolved there are other ways to handle it.
<< <i>The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious. >>
Translation: you can pass them off on someone else.
<< <i> It used to be a place where expert advice could be easily obtained. It has since become a forum where they hang the dealer first and sort it out later which is why many dealers don't post here anymore or won't at all >>
As a dealer you can look at this forum as a place where collectors come to rant and bad mouth delaers, but it is also a place where dealers can tell their side of the story. There is something for dealers and collectors to learn here about business ethics and how collectors view dealer business practices. Dealers can use some of the rants as a free consumer survey if they want and if they care.
And if you read enough threads here you will see that forum members will defend a dealer if they think he is getting a bad rap from a collector who has handled a situation in an unreasonable manner.
Then again, as the recent Superior BIN gaff poll indicated, 19% of the collector forum members are goniffs who think it is OK to rip off a dealer. But at least thanks to the poll we now know that.
It was not obvious to me! If you look at the original post it said I was suprized that some did not grade. Also look at the coins, you can tell that thay are mostly fairly attractive coins.
The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious.
You have got to be kidding me!!! Were you able to write that with a straight face?
How many threads and posts have there been advising buyers to deal with a knowledgable and ethical dealer because they would not sell you something without disclosing any problems? In fact, how many posts have you read about "inferior" collections being assembled by purchasing from wannabe dealers? You know the ones, the ones that sell you infereior coins (like cleaned) without disclosing that fact.
Wrighty, you can take some of the responsibility if you want to but I disagree with you. You should not have to ask an ethical knowledgable dealer (and in this case I think it is worse because this seller is an aknowledged expert when it comes to IHC's) if the coins are cleaned when presented to you as MS 63 or 64.
I look at this sellers website from time to time looking for something to purchase. It never occurred to me that coins he posts as MS anything would have been cleaned unless so descibed. I should not have to ask an expert to disclose problems, that should be a given otherwise why go to the expert? I can buy cleaned coins all day long on eBay.
The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious.
This has really hit a nerve with me. The above is exactly one of the reasons why slabbing has become popular and/or needed in the first place. Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
So where does that leave us? Some buyers only buy and insist upon buying only PCGS and/or NGC slabbed coins. It may not be perfect because the grading companies can make a mistake but the coin is certainly much more liquid than relying on the desciprion of a raw coin by a dealer.
<< <i>I don't get it. If a leading specialty dealer lists a coin as MS63, what are my responsibilities other than to purchase them as MS63 at most likely near to full retail. Why should I have to grill the specialist to insure what he selling is really as he has represented it. Now I understand that PCGS is bit screwy at times, but 5 out of 5? C'mon. On the surface this stinks. >>
All you have to do is read one of these threads to tell who you can openly deal with and who you need to "make sure your chinstrap is fastened tight", before you enter a transaction. All in all, very informative.
Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. The others were acceptable as they where without mention because they did not look cleaned. I did not hide anything. I thought they were great. PCGS body bags perfectly good coins all the time. If you saw these coins at a show marked with the grade I put on them, you'd snap them up in a heartbeat!
Also, Who said anything about not buying them back. Or refusing to buy them back, or buying them back at a lower grade. You better get your facts straight if you want to start throwing flames around.
As I said eariler, there was no ill feeling about this deal by either party, why are you making it into some kind of crime?
Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. The others were acceptable as they where without mention because they did not look cleaned. I did not hide anything. I thought they were great. PCGS body bags perfectly good coins all the time. If you saw these coins at a show marked with the grade I put on them, you'd snap them up in a heartbeat!
Also, Who said anything about not buying them back. Or refusing to buy them back, or buying them back at a lower grade. You better get your facts straight if you want to start throwing flames around.
As I said eariler, there was no ill feeling about this deal by either party, why are you making it into some kind of crime? >>
All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect.
Please decipher the above.
If it was so clear that they were cleaned why did the buyer send them in to be graded? Surely he didn't think the description meant they were cleaned, especially after having successfully slabbing coins purchased from you in the past.
<< <i> Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. >>
You admit you knew at least some of them were cleaned and yet never in all the descriptions is the word "cleaned" mentioned ("too bright" may be looked at as a positive to many, for instance.) Without that word mentioned, most novices would save them for years thinking they have original, untouched coins, only to be surprised later when they (or their heirs) decide to sell. The only difference with this transaction is the buyer sent them out for slabbing right away (which you never expected) and then called you on it. Rick, I've met you and I know you understand who you are and that people come to you as an expert. This is a tough lesson, but you're getting angry at the wrong people.
Mentioning something to the effect is not the same as telling it straight. >>
"When you removed the book from the cradle, did you speak the words?" "Yeah, basically." "Did you speak the exact words?" "Look, maybe I didn't say every tiny syllable, no. But basically I said them, yeah."
He told me I should have let him know that I wanted to send the coins off and he would have told me if they would slab them or not. After a little more discussion he offered to buy the coins back at 75% of what I paid for them 1 month earlier. Net Net after the grading fees, shipping , and the 25% haircut I was out about $500 and had no coins. Please give me your thoughts!!!!
Ouch!...I diden't see that.I hope you get your full refund.
Comments
<< <i>
Yes, I am saying that, and so is PCGS, apparantly. You're digging yourself into a deeper hole now. >>
A mint state coin, also known as "uncirculated," is, theoretically, a coin which has not seen circulation.
If you take a nice coin that you receive in change at the grocery store, a shiny new nickel, say, and submit it to a reputable grading service, it will be returned, graded in a nice plastic container, with a grade such as ms63 or maybe even ms64 or ms65, depending on the severity and placement of your so-called grade limiting marks. It could have "circulated" for some time but it will come back, slabbed and certified, as "mint state."
Of course, a coin which never actually made it into merchant's till, which happened to just have been rubbed with some other coins in a mint bag, then perhaps wiped gently with a handkerchief by some long-ago owner, (maybe even seasoned with some nice extra virgin olive oil), is returned from the same reputable grading service because smoeone actually tried to "take care" of the coin. It is not slabbed and certified as "mint state," yet it is arguably far more uncirulated than the first example.
hmmm......
things aren't always as they seem, grasshopper.
<< <i>As for the transaction history, these were part of a raw set I took on consignment (because at the price it took to get it, it didn't make sense to buy it outright) I make 10% on consignments >>
<< <i>I think his offer to buy them back @ 75% is quite reasonable. >>
10% commission....25% buyback??
Lets see??? Consigned $100.00........sell for $110.00.....unhappy customer......buyback for $82.50?????
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>If I were (WRIGHTY) I would be looking for a new dealer.
Sounds like Rick only made good on the deal (100% money back )
because of the post here.
Rick should have been up front with the cleaned coins. >>
So the seller gives the buyer an adequate resolution, mutually agreeable - and you still want to hang him?
READY
FIRE!
aim
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
Lets see??? Consigned $100.00........sell for $110.00.....unhappy customer......buyback for $82.50????? >>
One serious issue here is how long did it take the buyer to realize he didn't like the coins.
His problem came after they were returned by pcgs after submission, not immediately upon receipt of coins he wanted to send right back.
We all have read about and even experienced first hand how long an economy submission can take. Is this something a seller is supposed to just eat whenever a grading service, after a 10 second perusal of a coin, decides to send a coin back ungraded?
Absent an agreement that provides an extension of a return privilege to cover the time required to have a tpg look at a coin, how long is a seller supposed to extend a return privilege?
Rick is no "fairtrader" in my book. (and i mean that in a good way!)
z
<< <i>
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
I agree as well. Does anyone disagree? I skimmed some of the prior pages, and the majority opinion seems to be he's dead wrong. Off with his balls. [insert the guillotine icon].
CG
-Rick Snow
Tom
You're probably right.
From a business point of view, I probably would have offered a full refund and made a mental note to not deal with this client in the future.
Let me get this straight:
Mental note - this customer wasn't happy with cleaned junk that I passed off as MS63 - avoid in the future.
There are certainly enough collectors who can't tell crap from original coins (the full-page Coin World dealers are thriving, right?), but those that want problem-free coins shouold be avoided? I don't get it.
<< <i>I think this should have been handled privately, either in person or by phone.
You're probably right.
From a business point of view, I probably would have offered a full refund and made a mental note to not deal with this client in the future.
Let me get this straight:
Mental note - this customer wasn't happy with cleaned junk that I passed off as MS63 - avoid in the future.
There are certainly enough collectors who can't tell crap from original coins (the full-page Coin World dealers are thriving, right?), but those that want problem-free coins shouold be avoided? I don't get it. >>
The grading services are not infallible. Who is to say that the coins were junk or not (or whether they were cleaned to a point that they could not be graded on a Monday, but might be graded on a Tuesday?) No one wins here so it is best to cut the losses and you will never get agreement on whether the coins were truly MS-63 or not.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling. >>
I think this quote nails it for me. You expect this type of behavior from a less reputable dealer. Additionally, I become cautious of a seller once they invoke the "market acceptable" or "blame the buyer" defense. Either you're a cut above your peers in the industry or you are just like everyone else.
I'm curious how long between the time you received the coins from Rick and when you tried to return them.
z
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And the lesson of this thread is what? >>
Buy slabbed coins or be able to tell if a coin is not messed with. >>
No. How about "trust a big name dealer who is the foremost expert in the series to tell YOU if the coin has been cleaned." Look, we buy raw coins from people like Rick Snow for a reason. We want peace of mind that we're not getting the usual junk and we pay extra for that knowledge. I can tell a cleaned copper coin from an original, but there are many that can't. They're the ones I suddenly have empathy for, and to know that Rick has essentially kicked the little guy to the curb and has that weird wording for MS coins on his website and in his books are particularly troubling. >>
I think this quote nails it for me. You expect this type of behavior from a less reputable dealer. Additionally, I become cautious of a seller once they invoke the "market acceptable" or "blame the buyer" defense. Either you're a cut above your peers in the industry or you are just like everyone else. >>
<< <i>OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. THE WERE SOME GOOD COMMENTS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION A GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE USED THIS TO GET ON A BAND WAGON AND STRING SOMEONE UP. MY INTENTION WAS TO GET FEEDBACK NOT TO BAD MOUTH RICK SNOW. AS I MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH SLABBED AND RAW COINS FROM HIM BEFORE THIS AND HAVE BEEN PLEASED THIS INCIDENT TOOK ME BY SURPRISE AND I WANTED INTELLIGENT INPUT. I SPOKE TO RICK AND HE LOCATED THE OLD RECEIPTS AND MAY POST THE PICTURES IF HE STILL HAS THEM. THERE WERE 6 COINS HE GRADED 2 IN 64 AND THE OTHER 4 63'S. AND YES THE BUYER MYSELF SHOULD HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COINS WHICH I ALREADY STATED I DID NOT. MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS. I HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANY RAW INDIANS SINCE. IN ADDITION DOING SOME QUICK MATH WITH RICK MY TOTAL LOSS INCLUDING THE BUYBACK, GRADING FEES, SHIPPING, INSURANCE ETC WAS ABOUT $400, I HAD PREVIOUSLEY STATED ABOUT $500 SO I WAS MISTAKEN.
HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME. >>
You asked for opinions, you got them. You asked for feedbacks, you got them. What the hell are you yelling about?
<< <i>OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS. THE WERE SOME GOOD COMMENTS BUT IN MY HUMBLE OPINION A GROUP OF PEOPLE HAVE USED THIS TO GET ON A BAND WAGON AND STRING SOMEONE UP. MY INTENTION WAS TO GET FEEDBACK NOT TO BAD MOUTH RICK SNOW. AS I MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH SLABBED AND RAW COINS FROM HIM BEFORE THIS AND HAVE BEEN PLEASED THIS INCIDENT TOOK ME BY SURPRISE AND I WANTED INTELLIGENT INPUT. I SPOKE TO RICK AND HE LOCATED THE OLD RECEIPTS AND MAY POST THE PICTURES IF HE STILL HAS THEM. THERE WERE 6 COINS HE GRADED 2 IN 64 AND THE OTHER 4 63'S. AND YES THE BUYER MYSELF SHOULD HAVE ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COINS WHICH I ALREADY STATED I DID NOT. MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS. I HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANY RAW INDIANS SINCE. IN ADDITION DOING SOME QUICK MATH WITH RICK MY TOTAL LOSS INCLUDING THE BUYBACK, GRADING FEES, SHIPPING, INSURANCE ETC WAS ABOUT $400, I HAD PREVIOUSLEY STATED ABOUT $500 SO I WAS MISTAKEN.
HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS THE AIR A LITTLE BIT AND PEOPLE CAN REALIZE THAT MAYBE BOTH PARTIES CAN SHARE BLAME. >>
If you want to keep taking on blame, go right ahead. But I do think you did a service to the collector community by bringing this situation to light. Individuals will now know to read/decipher the "fine print" or to request the appropriate disclosure prior to purchase.
It happened back in October 2005. That's why I mixed it up with the recent order.
I spoke with the guy who sent the recent e-mail (who I confused with wrighty) and he said we have no problem.
I spoke with wrighty and he said we have no problem.
Here are the coins with their original descriptions:
1891 MS-63RB 99% RED. Very lustrous. Looks like a gem full red but the color is a little too bright. $75
1889 MS-63RB 99% RED. Very lustrous. Looks like a gem full red but the color is a little pasty. $75
1894 MS-64RB 90% RED. Beautiful with a warm golden color. Could grade 65RB. $200
1895 MS-64RB 99% RED. Very close to gem. $135
1896 MS-63RB 95% RED. Blazing! Looks like gem full red. $80
1897 MS-63RB 99% RED. Great luster. Just a few light marks. $60
The total order was $625. The coins were repurchased for $468 or so. (Probably $475) That's $150 difference. Now that I have had time to refresh my memory of this 6-month-old deal, I think that some of the obviously cleaned coins were mentioned properly. The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious.
I apologized to Wrighty for saying things that were not even about this 6-month old deal. I confused it with a recent deal, which was also worked out to everyone’s satisfaction.
I may get some flack for my comments, but 2 weeks of talking to people at ANA summer sessions is worth more than 10 years of personal effort to this private collector.
David
<< <i>MY NOVICE THOUGHT WAS MINT STATE TRANSLATED INTO AN ORIGINAL COIN AND THEREFORE WHY ASK QUESTIONS. I HAVE AND AM WILLING TO ADMIT AGAIN THAT I ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR BUYING RAW COINS AND NOT ASKING QUESTIONS >>
This is the troubling part. There are a million novices out there and the dealers know it. The thing that is sticking people's craw here is that many of feel that the collector should not have to ask and should not have to fear buying raw from a specialist.
Edited to add: Based on your pics and desriptions Rick the only coin that would raise a flag is the first with the "too bright" and arguably the "pasty" in the second one but that could just be explaining why it was not full red. But the others give no inkling of warning and at least one evokes a higher grade.
Its kind of like a novice who bought WorldCom stock relying on the accuracy of a company's financial statements. They didn't know they should have asked the CFO if he had cooked the books.
CG
<< <i>I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious >>
So if I read this right, if they are cleaned but not obvious, you don't need to mention it?
But you know they are cleaned and selling them as not.
I find these 2 statements particularly troubling for a few reasons....
<< <i>The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious. >>
Cleaned is cleaned and should be noted regardless of grade and price.
This forum is no longer the educational entity it once was. It used to be a place where expert advice could be easily obtained. It has since become a forum where they hang the dealer first and sort it out later which is why many dealers don't post here anymore or won't at all. Something like the incident posted here should have been handled privately, if it could not be resolved there are other ways to handle it.
<< <i>The others that did not grade with no mention of cleaning are decent coins anyone would be happy to buy at any show for the money charged. I certainly don't feel they needed to be marked a cleaned when they are not at all obvious. >>
Translation: you can pass them off on someone else.
<< <i> It used to be a place where expert advice could be easily obtained. It has since become a forum where they hang the dealer first and sort it out later which is why many dealers don't post here anymore or won't at all >>
As a dealer you can look at this forum as a place where collectors come to rant and bad mouth delaers, but it is also a place where dealers can tell their side of the story. There is something for dealers and collectors to learn here about business ethics and how collectors view dealer business practices. Dealers can use some of the rants as a free consumer survey if they want and if they care.
And if you read enough threads here you will see that forum members will defend a dealer if they think he is getting a bad rap from a collector who has handled a situation in an unreasonable manner.
Then again, as the recent Superior BIN gaff poll indicated, 19% of the collector forum members are goniffs who think it is OK to rip off a dealer. But at least thanks to the poll we now know that.
CG
You have got to be kidding me!!! Were you able to write that with a straight face?
How many threads and posts have there been advising buyers to deal with a knowledgable and ethical dealer because they would not sell you something without disclosing any problems? In fact, how many posts have you read about "inferior" collections being assembled by purchasing from wannabe dealers? You know the ones, the ones that sell you infereior coins (like cleaned) without disclosing that fact.
Wrighty, you can take some of the responsibility if you want to but I disagree with you. You should not have to ask an ethical knowledgable dealer (and in this case I think it is worse because this seller is an aknowledged expert when it comes to IHC's) if the coins are cleaned when presented to you as MS 63 or 64.
I look at this sellers website from time to time looking for something to purchase. It never occurred to me that coins he posts as MS anything would have been cleaned unless so descibed. I should not have to ask an expert to disclose problems, that should be a given otherwise why go to the expert? I can buy cleaned coins all day long on eBay.
Joe.
<< <i>Also look at the coins, you can tell that thay are mostly fairly attractive coins. >>
Fairly attractive?
a couple of them are VERY attractive coins! Of course, hard to be sure with pictures, but Rick is pretty consistent with his picture taking.
Heck, this is Rick Snow, the King of the IHC passing off cleaned IHC's on an unsuspecting collector.
It makes the hobby look bad when a top dealer does this.
This has really hit a nerve with me. The above is exactly one of the reasons why slabbing has become popular and/or needed in the first place. Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
So where does that leave us? Some buyers only buy and insist upon buying only PCGS and/or NGC slabbed coins. It may not be perfect because the grading companies can make a mistake but the coin is certainly much more liquid than relying on the desciprion of a raw coin by a dealer.
Joe.
<< <i>I don't get it. If a leading specialty dealer lists a coin as MS63, what are my responsibilities other than to purchase them as MS63 at most likely near to full retail. Why should I have to grill the specialist to insure what he selling is really as he has represented it. Now I understand that PCGS is bit screwy at times, but 5 out of 5? C'mon. On the surface this stinks. >>
All you have to do is read one of these threads to tell who you can openly deal with and who you need to "make sure your chinstrap is fastened tight", before you enter a transaction. All in all, very informative.
<< <i>OK, IF I KNEW THIS INITIAL POST WAS GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF HAND I WOULD NOT HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. >>
You must be new.
<< <i>THE INDIVIDUAL THAT SUGGESTED I POST STATED THAT THE FORUM WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HEAR SOME EXPERT OPINIONS >>
A practical joker, no doubt.
Russ, NCNE
Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. The others were acceptable as they where without mention because they did not look cleaned. I did not hide anything. I thought they were great. PCGS body bags perfectly good coins all the time. If you saw these coins at a show marked with the grade I put on them, you'd snap them up in a heartbeat!
Also, Who said anything about not buying them back. Or refusing to buy them back, or buying them back at a lower grade. You better get your facts straight if you want to start throwing flames around.
As I said eariler, there was no ill feeling about this deal by either party, why are you making it into some kind of crime?
<< <i>Uncle Joe wrote:
Experienced dealers fleecing the public by not disclosing problems. You buy it as a"great" coin but when you went to sell it you were quickly shown why your coin was not so great and so on and so on.
Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. The others were acceptable as they where without mention because they did not look cleaned. I did not hide anything. I thought they were great. PCGS body bags perfectly good coins all the time. If you saw these coins at a show marked with the grade I put on them, you'd snap them up in a heartbeat!
Also, Who said anything about not buying them back. Or refusing to buy them back, or buying them back at a lower grade. You better get your facts straight if you want to start throwing flames around.
As I said eariler, there was no ill feeling about this deal by either party, why are you making it into some kind of crime? >>
Only if they had a piece of PCGS plastic around them!
Joe.
<< <i>Only if they had a piece of PCGS plastic around them! >>
Mmmm....Kool-Aid....
If it was so clear that they were cleaned why did the buyer send them in to be graded? Surely he didn't think the description meant they were cleaned, especially after having successfully slabbing coins purchased from you in the past.
Joe.
Edit: Mmmm....Kool-Aid....
<< <i>I mentioned something to that effect >>
Mentioning something to the effect is not the same as telling it straight.
The bottom Line:
A DEALER (seller) IS NOT YOUR FRIEND !!
You have to ask the same questions EVERYTIME, no matter how many times you've bought from someone.
I've fallen into this sense of 'he wouldn't sell me a cleaned coin' before.
Or you don't feel right asking someone you've bought 100 coins from if the 101st coin is cleaned. ASK !!!
No one will get mad. Have a list of question you ask of every coin, and ask those questions every time.
I will only guess, but I think Rick would have answered every question truthfully.
<< <i> Oh give me a break! Fleecing the public! Not disclosing problems! Look at the coins and the descriptions. All the ones that I knew were cleaned I mentioned something to that effect. >>
You admit you knew at least some of them were cleaned and yet never in all the descriptions is the word "cleaned" mentioned ("too bright" may be looked at as a positive to many, for instance.) Without that word mentioned, most novices would save them for years thinking they have original, untouched coins, only to be surprised later when they (or their heirs) decide to sell. The only difference with this transaction is the buyer sent them out for slabbing right away (which you never expected) and then called you on it. Rick, I've met you and I know you understand who you are and that people come to you as an expert. This is a tough lesson, but you're getting angry at the wrong people.
<< <i>
<< <i>I mentioned something to that effect >>
Mentioning something to the effect is not the same as telling it straight. >>
"When you removed the book from the cradle, did you speak the words?"
"Yeah, basically."
"Did you speak the exact words?"
"Look, maybe I didn't say every tiny syllable, no. But basically I said them, yeah."
haven't received mine
Ouch!...I diden't see that.I hope you get your full refund.
Al