I still disagree in principle with most of your counter-points but I appreciate you taking the time to converse. I apologize for my last statement in my quoted post where I state "big-time dealers"...that was not a rational debate statement.
"Wrighty: Did you ever suggest returning the coins to Rick Snow in exchange for other coins in Rick Snow's inventory? Had you done so I am sure Rick would have offered you very close to if not a full 100% value in exchange instead of a 75% cash refund???"
ABSOLUTELY (100% that is). Rick stands behind his stuff.
It takes a big man to come in here and air out his/her problems, our bizzness is done here. Now let's go hang FAIRTRADERZ, get the rope Celtus, let's ride!!!
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange?
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
My policy on selling is that I immediately offer all unsatisified buyers 100% back... But then again, I am old-school business and that philosophy is in danger of extinction.
My policy on selling is that I immediately offer all unsatisified buyers 100% back... But then again, I am old-school business and that philosophy is in danger of extinction.
That's very easy to do with the margins made in toned coins today.
<< <i>You must temper bargain hunting with knowledge. If you are looking only at prices and grade you are looking for trouble. If you have knowledge about a quality coin which is undergraded you do not need guarentees from any dealer. However if you are a new collector, you must ask a lot of questions. Look at a lot of coins. You have to ask for help. I believe that agreeing to buy a coin back for the same grade is a suitable safety net for all collectors. My guarentee is at least 75% of the retail price. You can negotiate more too. >>
A new buyer shouldn't have to ask the question if your "mint state" coins are cleaned, as he would need to go no further than the Red Book to find the definition, nor should he have to buy your books or read the fine print of your website to find out that little nugget of information. If you have your own definition of "mint state" that differs with everyone else's, then that shouldn't be the customer's problem. You've been a classy dealer all these years, so why are you choosing to come across like a lot of other common dealers who look to sell anything at any price. BTW, the 75% buyback offer on coins just bought from YOU would tell me in a hurry that the coins were not what they appeared. If you liked them in the first place, then you should have no problem stocking them again at the same price.
Me: You say that they're MS63 - you think that they'll slab?
Them: They may have been lightly cleaned.
Me: Thanks.
Now it's time for me to make a dollars and cents decision. I'm a big believer in asking lots of questions, and cynical enough to believe that no one volunteers anything.
Caveat Emptor, and know your coins. If they don't look "right" on delivery, send 'em back. If you don't feel that you can figure out yourself if a coin is cleaned, don't buy raw.
I'm not trying to be harsh, it's just reality - especially trusting your own eye. I've been burnt, but have also bought lightly cleaned coins that I've loved. I'll also buy anything, if the price is right - and if I re-sell it and know that it has been cleaned, I'll disclose it, usually at a pretty discounted price. There actually are hobbyists who just want to fill a hole in an album, even with a cleaned coin!
Are you suggesting that any cleaned coin is no longer Mint State? What world do you live on? >>
I think he is suggesting what most of us believe.
If someone is selling ANY coin whether g4 or MS64 and it has been cleaned, whizzed, recolored, tooled, fooled, thumbed, rubbed, or d icked with....then that should be noted up front.
Are you suggesting that collectors should now ask if a MS63 coin advertised as an MS63 coin is any of the above before purchasing from dealers?
I check your site quite a bit and see you list problems.........I"d be shocked if all 5 of these coins got BBd again if submitted but is it possible you might have missed something on a portion of them?
It's disturbing to me that a couple of high profile folks feel that there was no problem with Rick omitting the cleaning from the descriptions. To tell a customer that you should have let them know you were going to submit them for grading is prima facie evidence that there was every intention of concealing the cleaning. In other words, I'm okay unless this guy tries to get these things graded. Additionally, it's none of Rick's business, nor anyone else for that matter, whether an individual wants to slab a coin valued at one dollar or one-million dollars. That is a personal preference. If a coin is likely to be BB'd then the reason should be disclosed.
Disclosure is essential when it comes to ethical dealing. If a consignor gave me a lot to sell and I could see his description was deceptive or incomplete I would demand he either edit and provide ALL details or find another dealer to consign with. Dealers seem to forget; when you sell coins on consignment, the customer is dealing with YOU, and NOT the owner of the coins. YOUR reputation is going to suffer.
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions...
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions... >>
Im principle that works, but alot of the times you will hear a dealer hyping or teaching a collector about a coin, in hopes of selling the coin to him. Per say a VAM or such, and the collector not well versed in Vams takes whatever the dealer says to be trtuth even if it is not totally true. This issue is real simple... Learn to grade for yourself and you will much more well off in the world of collecting coins. Don't rely on the grading services to make the call for you.
<< <i>I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
Every once in while you write something that makes me want to give you a big smooch.
<< <i>"The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... >>
Hmmmm......
<< <i>I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
<< <i>It's disturbing to me that a couple of high profile folks feel that there was no problem with Rick omitting the cleaning from the descriptions. To tell a customer that you should have let them know you were going to submit them for grading is prima facie evidence that there was every intention of concealing the cleaning. >>
There isn't a test to prove a coin has been cleaned. It's a judgement call based on the "overall impression." There is a range of "acceptable impressions" and some cleaned coins can be within that range and some original coins fall outside of that range.
I'd trust Snow's grading on raw Indian cents over some of the atrocities in slabs any day.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I think his offer to buy them back @ 75% is quite reasonable. With regard to your grading fees...that was your decision to take that chance. I don't see why he should contribute towards that.
If you didn't think the coins would slab when you received them, you should have returned them for a 100% refund. When you accepted the coins and sent them for grading you 'owned them'.
If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
I'm with Mr. Snow on this point. His offer is fair. But since I've never collected copper coins, I really can see how any collector of other US minor coinage would be confused by Eagles' website. Mr. Snow maintains that an MS63 coin can have problem surfaces--as long as they are not offensive. But the the sight has a number of NGC/Anacs graded coins in MS63 in $500-$2000 area that obviously are just fine. If I were buying from "The Expert" in this series, I'd easily assume the coins were solid MS63 and not dipped badly, and certainly not cleaned.
Shifting from US silver/gold coins it really wouldn't occur to me theres a giagantic difference in the grading of copper verses everything else--especially after viewing all the nice certified MS63's on his website.
Perhaps a notice on raw coins is in order--Printed on the website--because this isn't worth the bother on consigned stuff.
<< <i>"The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions.".
I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
In addition, this dealer, is a supposed expert in the series and has written numerous books on it. Kind of makes him a teacher, doesn't it?
Also if Rick has his own grading standards different from those of the TPGs, isn't that similar to another grading company that starts with an "A"?
<< <i>Also if Rick has his own grading standards different from those of the TPGs, isn't that similar to another grading company that starts with an "A"? >>
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
I am not sure I can entirely agree with that statement..............Possibly a dip of a natural cleaning agent is acceptable......JMO..
<< <i>I am not sure I can entirely agree with that statement..............Possibly a dip of a natural cleaning agent is acceptable......JMO.. >>
With silver, a quick dip is almost always "market acceptable" for the grade, at least in mint state and high AU. A lightly dipped old silver coin often doesn't even get the dipping mentioned, in part because it IS common and "market acceptable" in most cases.
With copper? Not so much. Dipped copper almost always looks like ca-ca.
If the actions in this thread and the "other" thread were by ones not known to some other parties, I am sure we would be reading about: "that 's what you get from dealing with a wannabe."
<< If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
to say the least.. i couldnt even imagine someone like dave bowers pulling something like that in a million years
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer. If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is. Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
Again, Rick stated that had he known the buyer wanted to send them to be graded he would have told him they were cleaned. That tells me that Rick knew they were cleaned. I find it hard to believe that a so-called expert such as Rick could possibly miss a cleaning. Further, I'm disappointed, although not surprised, that many forumites rushed right to his defense as though he was a God.
I respect Rick more than any other Indian Head Cent collector. Rick, you can not call a MS coin that has been cleaned, MS with out stating "cleaned". It is the right thing to do. This is the first time in all my years of collecting MS coins that I have heard "It is OK to call a cleaned coin MS without noting cleaned". If that makes me the board idiot so be it.
I like some cleaned MS coins and would pay near MS noncleaned price for some. Which I'm sure these fall into. Rick has been a great asset to the board and has taught me alot on here so I want to make it clear I am not "hanging" Rick S. It just seems that this method needs to be modified to meet customer demands.
The simple fact remains that "cleaning" is a judgement call. It's not an either or thing, it's a spectrum of maybes and looks like. It's not cleaning that destroys the value of a coin, it's the appearance that it has been cleaned.
So this all really hinges much more on the appearance of these coins than on anything else. The fact that EagleEye was willing to buy back well traveled coins after such a long time says a great deal about not only EagleEye, but also the appearance of the coins.
<< <i>I respect Rick more than any other Indian Head Cent collector. Rick, you can not call a MS coin that has been cleaned, MS with out stating "cleaned". It is the right thing to do. This is the first time in all my years of collecting MS coins that I have heard "It is OK to call a cleaned coin MS without noting cleaned". If that makes me the board idiot so be it. >>
I have a bit of an issue with that as well.
I mean, even if you consider a light cleaning and recoloring "acceptable" for the MS-63 grade, the market does not. That's different than say, a dipped silver coin which usually will be "market acceptable" unless we're talking about, say, an MS-67.
If your grading system considers it okay for a 63 to have a light cleaning, dipping or recoloring, then it's fine to call such a coin an MS-63 as long as the problems are disclosed in the description. Again, the market does not generally consider this "market acceptable" for the grade even if a particular grading system does. This isn't a knock on the grading system, it's just a reality of where this grading system and the market diverge.
Problems on a coin don't need to be described to the Nth degree as long as they are NOT excessive for the grade. In other words, a few light scratches or rim dings on a G-4 coin might not need disclosure (not unusually bad for the grade) but on an AU it would. I personally think any kind of cleaning, recoloring or dipping (of copper) is a problem that exceeds reasonable expectations of any "mint state" coin if such is not disclosed in the description.
[Edit to add: Having said that, a TPG's opinion of whether or not a coin has been cleaned or recolored is not the end-all-be-all, especially when they go through their manic-depressive cycles of being ridiculously lenient and ridiculously tight. It's a sad commentary, to some degree, that so much of the market automatically rejects coins that the major TPGs reject and automatically accept coins they will slab. I recognize the 'consumer protection' angle of it, particularly for newbies, but I also think it does collectors a disservice by reducing their perceived needs to educate themselves about coins, the coin market and coin grading.]
It sounds like Snow has a return policy that he adheres to and is trying to honor. Honestly though, I didn't read it. My only opinion on this case is that coins listed should include details.
In general - I do think any good dealer should offer 100% back (minus shipping) if coins are returned in their unopened holders within a reasonable time frame.
As for a slabbing guarantee.. like it's been said - either buy it already slabbed or educate yourself enough to know before sending. Or examine the coins closely and learn from the submission. Most of us have been there at some point. Mistakes are education too (for collectors and dealers).
I am wondering Wrighty - Did you like the coins before they came back BB'd?
Sometimes album collecting, especially on bargain coins, is more fun and allows us to enjoy coins regardless of what a TPG grader thinks of them.
-Bob collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens. The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
PCGS in another periodic "manic-depressive" episode!! -- That's really true--on Morgans stuff is not tight-it comes back a grade lower than that even, plus god-forbid it has any toning if not out of an oldtime collection; instant BB.
OK, I've read the entire thread here on Tuesday morning. My perception of this whole thing is Rick has many dealings with many collectors and did NOT remember THIS particular poster and HIS issues. The collector (wrighty) presented the story in a way that would make me believe that Rick should have just contacted him back by PM and offered 100% refund or slabbed compreable coins from his Inventory. Rick got into all other issues in his reply and comes off sounding bad defending the 75% return policy. Hope they can work it out. Steve
If I were (WRIGHTY) I would be looking for a new dealer. Sounds like Rick only made good on the deal (100% money back ) because of the post here. Rick should have been up front with the cleaned coins.
PCGS as well as all the other services slab cleaned silver coins as mint state. But then you already knew that if you have been collecting for longer than 30 minutes. Copper is another issue.
I like others have been very happy with my purchases from Rick and I think he is a great dealer. I certainly understand only giving 75% on a return several months latter as some would not even offer anything after that amount of time....but...
I can't conceive of a situation where it is ok for a dealer to sell cleaned coins without disclosing......so I guess my only question is...does Rick think the coins were cleaned? I know he stated that his site notes that an MS63 coins can have a light cleaning....but does he agree with PCGS's conclusion that the coins are cleaned?
If I buy a raw IHC on Ebay then cavet empor as far as whether it will grade or not. If I am buying from Rick snow I am going to be 100% certain that in Rick's opinion the coin is as stated (grade wise and problem wise) so if no problem is mentioned than even I wouldn't have thought to ask if the coin had been cleaned. So again I come back to did Rick think the coins were cleaned and if he did........a quick note about that should have been passed along to the buyer regardless of grade.
Let me relay a very similar experience I had, where the outcome was completely different.......
I purchased a lot of 5 toned Mercury dimes from a major dealer on Ebay and was very pleased when they arrived. I don't send off a lot of coins to grading services so I sat on these for 3 or 4 months and then decided to submit a few of the nicer ones to NGC. This was when I was very new to toned coins so my experience would have probably been similar to wrighty experience with copper coins. Well both of the Mercury dimes I sent if from this group of 5 were bodybagged by NGC, one for being cleaned and 1 for an Obverse scratch. There was no note on the auction that mentioned that these were potentially problem coins.
Since it had been around 4 months at this point I contacted the original seller just to let him know of my experience so that if he still had some of these dimes he might be able to check them over and maybe get back with the person who originally sold them to him. I did not ask for a refund since I felt like 4 months was likely 3 months too long to legitimately ask for any compensation. The seller told me that he had personally opened the bag of Merc dimes that these 5 coins had come out of and that they was no way they should have been BB'd. He also instructed me to send the coins and BBs to him and he refunded 100% of my original purchase price. Obviously this was not an A typical dealer experience but I can tell you I would not hesitate to purchase from this seller again
My example was not meant in anyway to disparage the way Rick handeled or is handeling his business becuase as I mentioned.....I would not hesitate to purchase from Rick in the future. So in the spirit of fair play...let me give you an example of Rick being an outstanding Dealer...
At FUN this year I purchased a few Toned CWT's from Rick. One of which was listed on Rick's site but did not have a price listed on his sales sheet. Instead of pulling the coin out of the case until he could determine what the coin was listed for he quoted me a price that I thought was extremely fair and I purchased the coin. That night I went on to Ricks site and noticed that the coin was priced at more than double what he sold it to me for I went back to his table the next day and let him know of his error to see how he wanted to handle the situation since I had no more money at the time. Rick said a deal is a deal and told me to enjoy the coin........so as you can see....even though Rick made a pricing error...he stood behind his sale unlike some of the other delaers we have heard about recently.
Comments
I still disagree in principle with most of your counter-points but I appreciate you taking the time to converse. I apologize for my last statement in my quoted post where I state "big-time dealers"...that was not a rational debate statement.
Respectfully,
Doug
ABSOLUTELY (100% that is).
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange?
Jerry
<< <i>Doug:
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
My policy on selling is that I immediately offer all unsatisified buyers 100% back... But then again, I am old-school business and that philosophy is in danger of extinction.
Doug
<< <i>I don't like to be sold cleaned, raw coins unless I'm told they're cleaned. >>
I agree with Uncle Wiggly
I still wouldn't buy from Mr. Rick Snow.
That's very easy to do with the margins made in toned coins today.
<< <i>That's very easy to do with the margains made in toned coins today. >>
Whatever do you mean?
Doug
<< <i>You must temper bargain hunting with knowledge. If you are looking only at prices and grade you are looking for trouble. If you have knowledge about a quality coin which is undergraded you do not need guarentees from any dealer. However if you are a new collector, you must ask a lot of questions. Look at a lot of coins. You have to ask for help. I believe that agreeing to buy a coin back for the same grade is a suitable safety net for all collectors. My guarentee is at least 75% of the retail price. You can negotiate more too.
>>
A new buyer shouldn't have to ask the question if your "mint state" coins are cleaned, as he would need to go no further than the Red Book to find the definition, nor should he have to buy your books or read the fine print of your website to find out that little nugget of information. If you have your own definition of "mint state" that differs with everyone else's, then that shouldn't be the customer's problem. You've been a classy dealer all these years, so why are you choosing to come across like a lot of other common dealers who look to sell anything at any price. BTW, the 75% buyback offer on coins just bought from YOU would tell me in a hurry that the coins were not what they appeared. If you liked them in the first place, then you should have no problem stocking them again at the same price.
Are you suggesting that any cleaned coin is no longer Mint State? What world do you live on?
Me: I like those coins - how much?
Them: (states price)
Me: You say that they're MS63 - you think that they'll slab?
Them: They may have been lightly cleaned.
Me: Thanks.
Now it's time for me to make a dollars and cents decision. I'm a big believer in asking lots of questions, and cynical enough to believe that no one volunteers anything.
Caveat Emptor, and know your coins. If they don't look "right" on delivery, send 'em back. If you don't feel that you can figure out yourself if a coin is cleaned, don't buy raw.
I'm not trying to be harsh, it's just reality - especially trusting your own eye. I've been burnt, but have also bought lightly cleaned coins that I've loved. I'll also buy anything, if the price is right - and if I re-sell it and know that it has been cleaned, I'll disclose it, usually at a pretty discounted price. There actually are hobbyists who just want to fill a hole in an album, even with a cleaned coin!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Centsaurus,
Are you suggesting that any cleaned coin is no longer Mint State? What world do you live on? >>
I think he is suggesting what most of us believe.
If someone is selling ANY coin whether g4 or MS64 and it has been cleaned, whizzed, recolored, tooled, fooled, thumbed, rubbed, or d icked with....then that should be noted up front.
Are you suggesting that collectors should now ask if a MS63 coin advertised as an MS63 coin is any of the above before purchasing from dealers?
I check your site quite a bit and see you list problems.........I"d be shocked if all 5 of these coins got BBd again if submitted but is it possible you might have missed something on a portion of them?
<< <i>Since then I have made him very fair offers on his coins. >>
Just stand behind your product 100%, fully refund the purchase price, and move on.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Disclosure is essential when it comes to ethical dealing. If a consignor gave me a lot to sell and I could see his description was deceptive or incomplete I would demand he either edit and provide ALL details or find another dealer to consign with. Dealers seem to forget; when you sell coins on consignment, the customer is dealing with YOU, and NOT the owner of the coins. YOUR reputation is going to suffer.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>Doug:
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions...
42/92
<< <i>
<< <i>Doug:
<< <i>I would think that the primary onus would be on a seller/dealer to propose...not a buyer/collector. >>
I simply do not agree. Sure it would be nice if a dealer always remember to do what you suggested but no dealer is perfect. Doesn't the collector share equal responsibility/onus to propose such a reasonable 100% even exchange? >>
The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions... >>
Im principle that works, but alot of the times you will hear a dealer hyping or teaching a collector about a coin, in hopes of selling the coin to him. Per say a VAM or such, and the collector not well versed in Vams takes whatever the dealer says to be trtuth even if it is not totally true. This issue is real simple... Learn to grade for yourself and you will much more well off in the world of collecting coins. Don't rely on the grading services to make the call for you.
you should have sent them all in again for up to 4 more times
and not all of them at once - singles have a much better chance with color
colored copper usually gets the 'cleaned' bodybag, even if "au natural"
if you want cool color in slabs - you have to pay 3-10 times sheet, because they don't always get in the slab right away -
and there is a 3 month turnaround at PCGS right now for the least expensive grading tier
<< <i>I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
<< <i>"The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... >>
Hmmmm......
<< <i>I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
Post of the day from a responsible dealer......
Ken
<< <i>It's disturbing to me that a couple of high profile folks feel that there was no problem with Rick omitting the cleaning from the descriptions. To tell a customer that you should have let them know you were going to submit them for grading is prima facie evidence that there was every intention of concealing the cleaning. >>
There isn't a test to prove a coin has been cleaned. It's a judgement call based on the "overall impression." There
is a range of "acceptable impressions" and some cleaned coins can be within that range and some original
coins fall outside of that range.
I'd trust Snow's grading on raw Indian cents over some of the atrocities in slabs any day.
If you didn't think the coins would slab when you received them, you should have returned them for a 100% refund. When you accepted the coins and sent them for grading you 'owned them'.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
Shifting from US silver/gold coins it really wouldn't occur to me theres a giagantic difference in the grading of copper verses everything else--especially after viewing all the nice certified MS63's on his website.
Perhaps a notice on raw coins is in order--Printed on the website--because this isn't worth the bother on consigned stuff.
<< <i>"The honest truth is... the dealer is not there to educate collectors... there are plenty of other collectors, seminars, and books that can do that... a dealer is there to buy and sell coins for a profit... now, of course there are times when a dealer will educate their buyers, but that should occur when the buyer asks questions.".
I disagree. Dealers are one of the BEST sources of education. Especially for hands on issues like grading. Education IS a customer service (at least I think it is). >>
In addition, this dealer, is a supposed expert in the series and has written numerous books on it. Kind of makes him a teacher, doesn't it?
Also if Rick has his own grading standards different from those of the TPGs, isn't that similar to another grading company that starts with an "A"?
<< <i>Also if Rick has his own grading standards different from those of the TPGs, isn't that similar to another grading company that starts with an "A"? >>
Or EAC?
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
I am not sure I can entirely agree with that statement..............Possibly a dip of a natural cleaning agent is acceptable......JMO..
<< <i>I am not sure I can entirely agree with that statement..............Possibly a dip of a natural cleaning agent is acceptable......JMO.. >>
With silver, a quick dip is almost always "market acceptable" for the grade, at least in mint state and high AU. A lightly dipped old silver coin often doesn't even get the dipping mentioned, in part because it IS common and "market acceptable" in most cases.
With copper? Not so much. Dipped copper almost always looks like ca-ca.
soaking........edited......
If the actions in this thread and the "other" thread were by ones not known to some other parties, I am sure we would be reading about: "that 's what you get from dealing with a wannabe."
Joe.
next time send him a bad check and when it bounces tell him..
"if you wanted me to send you a good check you should have told me"
<< <i>next time send him a bad check and when it bounces tell him.. >>
<< <i>"if you wanted me to send you a good check you should have told me" >>
LOL.....now THAT'S funny!...RS is not a person I will buy from...for my own personal reasons.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
to say the least.. i couldnt even imagine someone like dave bowers pulling something like that in a million years
<< <i>If Rick Snow knew the coins were cleaned and recolored, he was dishonest for not informing the buyer.
If Rick Snow did not know the coins were cleaned and recolored, he's not the expert everyone thinks he is.
Any way that you look at it, Rick does not come out of this looking good. >>
Again, Rick stated that had he known the buyer wanted to send them to be graded he would have told him they were cleaned. That tells me that Rick knew they were cleaned. I find it hard to believe that a so-called expert such as Rick could possibly miss a cleaning. Further, I'm disappointed, although not surprised, that many forumites rushed right to his defense as though he was a God.
I like some cleaned MS coins and would pay near MS noncleaned price for some. Which I'm sure these fall into. Rick has been a great asset to the board and has taught me alot on here so I want to make it clear I am not "hanging" Rick S. It just seems that this method needs to be modified to meet customer demands.
<< <i>If that makes me the board idiot so be it. >>
If that makes you one then I have to be in that room too....Wrong is wrong. Simple as that. RS was wrong.
a spectrum of maybes and looks like. It's not cleaning that destroys the value of a coin, it's
the appearance that it has been cleaned.
So this all really hinges much more on the appearance of these coins than on anything else.
The fact that EagleEye was willing to buy back well traveled coins after such a long time says
a great deal about not only EagleEye, but also the appearance of the coins.
<< <i>I respect Rick more than any other Indian Head Cent collector. Rick, you can not call a MS coin that has been cleaned, MS with out stating "cleaned". It is the right thing to do. This is the first time in all my years of collecting MS coins that I have heard "It is OK to call a cleaned coin MS without noting cleaned". If that makes me the board idiot so be it. >>
I have a bit of an issue with that as well.
I mean, even if you consider a light cleaning and recoloring "acceptable" for the MS-63 grade, the market does not. That's different than say, a dipped silver coin which usually will be "market acceptable" unless we're talking about, say, an MS-67.
If your grading system considers it okay for a 63 to have a light cleaning, dipping or recoloring, then it's fine to call such a coin an MS-63 as long as the problems are disclosed in the description. Again, the market does not generally consider this "market acceptable" for the grade even if a particular grading system does. This isn't a knock on the grading system, it's just a reality of where this grading system and the market diverge.
Problems on a coin don't need to be described to the Nth degree as long as they are NOT excessive for the grade. In other words, a few light scratches or rim dings on a G-4 coin might not need disclosure (not unusually bad for the grade) but on an AU it would. I personally think any kind of cleaning, recoloring or dipping (of copper) is a problem that exceeds reasonable expectations of any "mint state" coin if such is not disclosed in the description.
[Edit to add: Having said that, a TPG's opinion of whether or not a coin has been cleaned or recolored is not the end-all-be-all, especially when they go through their manic-depressive cycles of being ridiculously lenient and ridiculously tight. It's a sad commentary, to some degree, that so much of the market automatically rejects coins that the major TPGs reject and automatically accept coins they will slab. I recognize the 'consumer protection' angle of it, particularly for newbies, but I also think it does collectors a disservice by reducing their perceived needs to educate themselves about coins, the coin market and coin grading.]
In general -
I do think any good dealer should offer 100% back (minus shipping) if coins are returned in their unopened holders within a reasonable time frame.
As for a slabbing guarantee.. like it's been said - either buy it already slabbed or educate yourself enough to know before sending. Or examine the coins closely and learn from the submission. Most of us have been there at some point. Mistakes are education too (for collectors and dealers).
I am wondering Wrighty - Did you like the coins before they came back BB'd?
Sometimes album collecting, especially on bargain coins, is more fun and allows us to enjoy coins regardless of what a TPG grader thinks of them.
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Sounds like Rick only made good on the deal (100% money back )
because of the post here.
Rick should have been up front with the cleaned coins.
<< <i>Centsaurus,
Are you suggesting that any cleaned coin is no longer Mint State? What world do you live on? >>
Yes, I am saying that, and so is PCGS, apparantly. You're digging yourself into a deeper hole now.
<< <i>
<< <i>Centsaurus,
Are you suggesting that any cleaned coin is no longer Mint State? What world do you live on? >>
Yes, I am saying that, and so is PCGS, apparantly. You're digging yourself into a deeper hole now. >>
I believe PCGS isn't the only game in town..............So say's the planets........................
I can't conceive of a situation where it is ok for a dealer to sell cleaned coins without disclosing......so I guess my only question is...does Rick think the coins were cleaned? I know he stated that his site notes that an MS63 coins can have a light cleaning....but does he agree with PCGS's conclusion that the coins are cleaned?
If I buy a raw IHC on Ebay then cavet empor as far as whether it will grade or not. If I am buying from Rick snow I am going to be 100% certain that in Rick's opinion the coin is as stated (grade wise and problem wise) so if no problem is mentioned than even I wouldn't have thought to ask if the coin had been cleaned. So again I come back to did Rick think the coins were cleaned and if he did........a quick note about that should have been passed along to the buyer regardless of grade.
Let me relay a very similar experience I had, where the outcome was completely different.......
I purchased a lot of 5 toned Mercury dimes from a major dealer on Ebay and was very pleased when they arrived. I don't send off a lot of coins to grading services so I sat on these for 3 or 4 months and then decided to submit a few of the nicer ones to NGC. This was when I was very new to toned coins so my experience would have probably been similar to wrighty experience with copper coins. Well both of the Mercury dimes I sent if from this group of 5 were bodybagged by NGC, one for being cleaned and 1 for an Obverse scratch. There was no note on the auction that mentioned that these were potentially problem coins.
Since it had been around 4 months at this point I contacted the original seller just to let him know of my experience so that if he still had some of these dimes he might be able to check them over and maybe get back with the person who originally sold them to him. I did not ask for a refund since I felt like 4 months was likely 3 months too long to legitimately ask for any compensation. The seller told me that he had personally opened the bag of Merc dimes that these 5 coins had come out of and that they was no way they should have been BB'd. He also instructed me to send the coins and BBs to him and he refunded 100% of my original purchase price. Obviously this was not an A typical dealer experience but I can tell you I would not hesitate to purchase from this seller again
My example was not meant in anyway to disparage the way Rick handeled or is handeling his business becuase as I mentioned.....I would not hesitate to purchase from Rick in the future. So in the spirit of fair play...let me give you an example of Rick being an outstanding Dealer...
At FUN this year I purchased a few Toned CWT's from Rick. One of which was listed on Rick's site but did not have a price listed on his sales sheet. Instead of pulling the coin out of the case until he could determine what the coin was listed for he quoted me a price that I thought was extremely fair and I purchased the coin. That night I went on to Ricks site and noticed that the coin was priced at more than double what he sold it to me for