<< <i>Just found this about Silver-Zinc batteries. This company (Zpower) is planning on ramping up production in 2008 and has a lot of interest from various companies looking for smaller, less toxic batteries. This may impact silver prices over the next decade if the technology becomes dominant.
There is also a new type of computer patch cord being developed in India, works just like the standard Cat 6 but uses silver/copper mixture in the actual 8 wires.
Supposedly improves distance from 100 meters to 1000 meters with no signal loss. Great for third world countries as well, as it uses the standard connectors.
It's cheaper than fiber and when you figure in the labor involved, it has a huge upside. No new technology, just a new wiring media. When it finally comes on line commercially, it will require a great deal of silver. It may even become the dominant computer/network wiring media worldwide. Either way, it's good news for silver investors.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>what does the group think about a gold IRA account? >>
Stay away!
There's been discussion on this several pages back.
It's not a good thing to get involved with.
Too many restrictions and extra costs involved.
IRAs are for cash, which will be worth far less when you can finally access it without penalties.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I cashed out our Roth IRAs and ate the penalty on the gain. The money now resides in 2007-W Burnished Gold Eagle Sets, and I have absolutely no regrets, especially since the penalty has already been overwhelmed by the increase in the price of gold.
Our IRAs and my SEP/IRA are still under government control, which means that they include a mix of oil and pipeline companies, SLV and an Intermediate T-Bill fund. Hopefully, the dollar won't be worth nothing in a few short years. I will yank the money out of there as soon as I can do it without feeling totally violated.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
G7 approves IMF gold sales - Italy econ minister: "This is arguably a good time to consider selling some of these gold holdings and investing the proceeds in financial securities with positive yields."
This G7 flash is almost as good as Goldman's telling people gold was going to crash in 2008 and to get out now (all the while they were loading up and reducing their short position on the Tocom).
Do as Gordon Brown did for England by selling 50% of their gold reserves at the bottom of the market for $260/oz. What a shrewd investor old Gordie was. And for that stroke of genius they gave him the top job.
Believe me, the last thing the IMF or Central Banks want to do at this point is give away more gold for financial securities "with more yield." They gonna buy some TIPS at 3% yield when gold has been increasing in price at 25% per year the past few years?
<< <i>Believe me, the last thing the IMF or Central Banks want to do at this point is give away more gold for financial securities "with more yield." They gonna buy some TIPS at 3% yield when gold has been increasing in price at 25% per year the past few years? >>
But the cabal has to do something to twart gold's rise.
Well, gold seems well understood by the forumites and we never really have had that discussion about the poor man's gold. Silver...bulky, historic, played like a cheap drum with people gambling on it and giving it no respect at all. The Hunt brothers, morgans, all the things about silver. Some silver facts
So, you can buy SLV if you don't want to hold it, you can buy PM if you do want to. It does look poised to do something. Then there's the silver to gold ratio that speculators use in their play book. There are mining juniors that spring up like daffodils in the spring, many of which are shams and most of which will die on the vine before ever returning anything to investors. I've still got 300 shares of mining stock from the '80's...it was a dog, and it is still a dog and most certainly I will be buried with it. And, don't forget, silver is mostly a waste product, a throw off from mining more valuable metals like platinum or gold eventhough there have been large nugets found. For example, the Boot of Cortez. Largest gold nugget weighs oz., or from the Smuggler mine, a silver nugget Largest silver nugget is measured in lbs.
So silver is probably one of the most played metals ever. If you want to think of an oz of silver as a stock certificate worth $17 a share and you look at the cost of other stocks, maybe like gold at $900 a share or platinum at $1900 a share...what would you be more likely to buy or sell more of, plat or slv? The higher you go up the food chain, the pricier plays become.
So, here's the question: If you 10 oz of gold in one hand and 500 oz of silver in the other, which one do you think has the potential to make you more money in the year of '08? Simple question...
One never knows who is telling the truth when it comes to analyzing the fundamentals of precious metals these days.
G7 approves IMF gold sales - Italy econ minister: "This is arguably a good time to consider selling some of these gold holdings and investing the proceeds in financial securities with positive yields."
Roadrunner, the part of that quote which I found most interesting was what followed next - something to the effect that the IMF would, of course have to get the U.S. to approve their portion of the sales. In other words, the outgoing IMF Chairman from Italy is trying to commit the U.S. to selling U.S. gold into the world market on behalf of the IMF.
Who actually owns the IMF anyway? Is it privately-held, like the FED, or is it a creation of some international treaty that continually sucks money from the U.S., like the UN does?
I find that rather telling. And somewhat disconcerting.
mhammerman, in 1978 terms, gold looks cheap - but silver looks much cheaper!
I believe that when silver decides to make it's move, it'll happen so quickly that most folks won't even know it's happening until the price has more than doubled. The dynamics are much different now than they were then. The dollar wasn't being destroyed back then.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
So, here's the question: If you 10 oz of gold in one hand and 500 oz of silver in the other, which one do you think has the potential to make you more money in the year of '08? Simple question... >>
I don't think anyone should consider silver a short term investment. It almost always diasappoints. It's often a great short term speculation and can make you a lot of money even without leverage.
But in the long term silver will do quite well almost certainly. While a recession would hurt demand it would likely curtail supply much more. Buy physical, hold, and wait. Eventually technology and demand will catch up.
Gold is insurance. It won't protect you from the end of the world but it can pro- tect some of your assets against calamity and devaluations.
If the central banks really believe they can hold gold at these levels then '08 won't be a very good year for gold. If they're just jawboning the price down the effect will be short lived.
I think most people would agree that silver has a better chance to gain more than gold.
The main reason for this is the history of the gold:silver ratio.
Presently, it is a little high, that is, gold is 'expensive' relative to silver. Therefore, if you believe the ratio will migrate more towards its historical average, then silver is a no brainer decision over gold.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
It's similar to the theory of what gold stock will do better, the large demonstrated producer or the upstart junior or exploration company? Towards the market peak it's typically the smaller companies that experience the most explosive growth as it's far easier to go up 10X from $1 than it is to go up 10X from $30. Hence silver will probably catch up to and exceed the gold price via increased leverage as this cycle matures.
I wish I could have posted this link since it's formated better than the copy and paste but Market Watch all one one is on the dirty word list. You can copy and paste this line in just take out the "-"a between Market and Watch. This is a very good read.
NEW YORK (Market Watch) -- Gold dodged a bullet this past week. Gold bugs think this might have been the bears' last shot, and the path to $1,000 is now clear. On Feb. 1, gold was hit with massive waves of selling. By Tuesday's close it had lost over $40, taking it below $890. The technical damage was serious. Australian gold commentator The Privateer's long-term $U.S. 5 X 3 point and figure chart) turned down. See chart The Gartman Letter was spooked out of 40% of its gold holdings on Tuesday, and started talking of gold going down to $800. Then gold counter-attacked. In The Privateer's words: "In the three trading days since Feb. 5, it reversed and stormed upward by $U.S. 32.50, closing (spot future basis) on Friday, Feb.8 $918.40 ... the gold price fell below both 10 and 20-day moving averages this week only to turn right around and move above them again by the end of the week. The shorter term moving average remains above its longer term counterpart."
Why? Close observers of gold futures' noted that "open interest" (the total number of futures contracts outstanding) rose as gold was going down and fell (sharply) as it recovered. This suggests short sellers being routed. Bill Murphy's LeMetropoleCafe triumphed with its proprietary monitoring of Indian gold prices. On Tuesday, with gold down around $890, the site reported that India, the world's largest gold buyer, was apparently importing, for the first time in weeks. This stopped again when gold rose back above $900. Implication: Indian demand, which has followed up since 2002, will underpin gold below $900. See Website But gold bugs say there is more to gold's powerful recovery than the usual cycle of short sellers being bushwhacked by physical buyers. For one thing, to quote The Privateer: "This snap back in the U.S. gold price has come in the face of a rising U.S. dollar ... Yes, the USDX did lose 0.3 points on Feb. 9 (while gold was rising $ 12.30) to close for the week at 76.82, but it still posted a gain of well over one full point in the week. Gold rose in spite of this."
Another thing: gold rose some $4 in after hours on Friday. This usually means aggressive U.S. fund activity. But most of all: other commodity markets started behaving oddly at the end of the week. Dan Norcini, writing on Friday for Jim Sinclair's put it succinctly: "The entire commodity complex was on what can only be called a "roaring tear" today ... platinum, palladium, copper, crude oil, wheat, soybeans, corn, sugar were all soaring today. Sugar rallied 5%, stunning the shorts, while Minneapolis wheat was once again locked-limit bid with the hapless shorts completely unable to exit the market ... folks, I have seen some bull markets in my time as a trader but I have rarely seen anything like the Minneapolis wheat market. Take one look at what is happening to food prices and tell me that gold is not seeing what is taking place there ..." See Website This past weekend, yet again, the International Monetary Fund announced it would like to sell some gold. Since gold went bullish in 2002, official sector noises of this type have often appeared just as gold began an important move up. Further back, the IMF gold sales in 1978-80 heralded the great gold surge of that time. The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee, one of a number of gold bug operations that think gold's price is manipulated, put out a scathing press release. See Website Nevertheless, as Dow Theory Letters' veteran Richard Russell put it: "Gold only 10 bucks from its high, and so far it hasn't let any of the "profit-takers" back in at lower prices. Ah well, the danger of trading out in a bull market."
Ah well, the danger of trading out in a bull market."
This concept just kills me. It's as if the fundamentals are completely imaginary. If they don't understand why PMs are acting the way they are, then they probably believe that McCain is a Conservative and they probably think that inflation is under control while the government spending is just a "blip."
Added @11:05AM - Wow, gold is dropping (down $15.00) after the IMF has approved gold sales.
Platinum is going up (up $8.00). I guess that the IMF doesn't have any Platinum stockpiled.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I got out at a profit from my earlier trade and shorted again at $920. The IMF story is very interesting, but they didn't say how they would sell their gold. Remember, for them it is a reserve, not an investment. They're probably thinking that gold holdings should correspond to a nation's capital accounts.
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market. That's the good news for the gold bugs. But I'm gonna leave now, because gold has dropped enough for me to sell short a few more contracts.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
The IMF story is very interesting, but they didn't say how they would sell their gold. Remember, for them it is a reserve, not an investment. They're probably thinking that gold holdings should correspond to a nation's capital accounts.
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market.
Again I ask - whose gold is the IMF "selling?" At one time, weren't IMF assets and IMF loans to developing countries backed by gold reserves from each of the members? So, how have all those giveaway "loans" worked out? I haven't been keeping track.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Now I read the article more closely. Although the sales won't start until at least April, the minister's comment, "The current gold price means a flow of income can be ensured" has short-term negative implications for investors: that they will sell based on price, not a steady flow based on x number of tons/week. On the other hand, they will stop selling when gold drops too much.
In other words, the sentence can be construed as confining gold to within a specific trading range. This is what GATA calls manipulation, and now it's the official plan.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>I wish I could have posted this link since it's formated better than the copy and paste but Market Watch all one one is on the dirty word list. You can copy and paste this line in just take out the "-"a between Market and Watch. This is a very good read. >>
do not underestimate the Indian market for gold and it's desire to purchase the "stuff" mostly in jewelry.
and if we do have a maipulator in the price of gold via IMF...then it would seem there is no immediate push to $960 and beyond.
Mr Buffett.... buffett's latest move this has had in impact on the stock markets today as well....it may be a dim light at the end of the tunnel, but right now it seems any wee bit of positive news will send the stock market up
it appears to be a real bank and the only fishy part of the whole thing is the person using a referral ID. which means he gets kickbacks from any person who either visits or signs up for a service.
otherwise i would not wish to deal with a FL bank. something about the whole state of FL smells like a scam ;-)
guym, we really do not care to be advertised to on this forum. it is a natural reaction on our parts.
<< <i>I got out at a profit from my earlier trade and shorted again at $920. The IMF story is very interesting, but they didn't say how they would sell their gold. Remember, for them it is a reserve, not an investment. They're probably thinking that gold holdings should correspond to a nation's capital accounts.
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market. That's the good news for the gold bugs. But I'm gonna leave now, because gold has dropped enough for me to sell short a few more contracts. >>
Shorting Gold!!!!???? Blasphemer
Actually I would be very wary of the most over played trade perhaps in the history of the currency markets. The unwinding may or may not impact the price of gold, but will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.
A few months ago, a poster to this thread queried: "Off topic - Where do you get the standards for class? Low, Middle, Upper, etc? I had a conversation about that the other day and thought that most of my family and my wifes were probably lower middle class, but I'd like to find out. " From page 268 of this thread.
We were discussing middle class slippage and some of the issues we were divining. I attempted a response but realized that even myself, wizzer of miraculous things, was fumbling with what should be a relatively simple question. Here is a better attempt:
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
Excellent move to patch a sinking ship and restore confidence in our credit companies. I guess they think it is their money and not the investors money. Judith, please call my attorney.
<< <i>Excellent move to patch a sinking ship and restore confidence in our credit companies. I guess they think it is their money and not the investors money. Judith, please call my attorney.
Wow.... how many other funds that may follow suit??? Another example for everyone who is dealing in 'paper' assets....
I'm a firm believer in taking possession of any gold and silver that I own...... I suspect we will eventually hear stories how someone's precious metals have been 'frozen' or are non- deliverable.
Rob wonders why the $3 TRILL in credit derivatives that has tanked Citigroup stock has not had any effect on JPMorgan who holds $7 TRILL in derivatives. One thought is that the negative information is being covered up "legally" by the intelligence czar who has the authority to waive SEC rules per GW's directive. No such luck for Citigroup however who has been bashed about left and right.
According to this article the following economic reports are going bye bye just like the M3 tracking did a while back. Hard to believe that no one has use for retail and manufacturing reports and even GDP. But don't want to scare Joe Consumer any earlier than necessary. It's critical to keep all economic reports rosy or not report them at all. Can't have a recession by definition without GDP reporting (lol).
Due to budgetary constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008.
Advance Monthly Sales for Retail and Food Services Advance Report on Durable Goods Construction Put in Place Gross Domestic Product Manufacturers' Shipments, Inventories, and Orders Manufacturing and Trade: Inventories and Sales Monthly Wholesale Trade New Residential Construction New Residential Sales Personal Income and Outlays Quarterly Financial Report Quarterly Services Retail E-Commerce Sales U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services U.S. International Transactions
Rob wonders why the $3 TRILL in credit derivatives that has tanked Citigroup stock has not had any effect on JPMorgan who holds $7 TRILL in derivatives. One thought is that the negative information is being covered up "legally" by the intelligence czar who has the authority to waive SEC rules per GW's directive. No such luck for Citigroup however who has been bashed about left and right.
According to this article the following economic reports are going bye bye just like the M3 tracking did a while back. Hard to believe that no one has use for retail and manufacturing reports and even GDP. But don't want to scare Joe Consumer any earlier than necessary. It's critical to keep all economic reports rosy or not report them at all. Can't have a recession by definition without GDP reporting (lol).
Due to budgetary constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008.
Advance Monthly Sales for Retail and Food Services Advance Report on Durable Goods Construction Put in Place Gross Domestic Product Manufacturers' Shipments, Inventories, and Orders Manufacturing and Trade: Inventories and Sales Monthly Wholesale Trade New Residential Construction New Residential Sales Personal Income and Outlays Quarterly Financial Report Quarterly Services Retail E-Commerce Sales U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services U.S. International Transactions
Interesting Roadrunner. 57loaded, maybe we need a network of Americans who don't bury their heads in the sand and don't bankrupt this great country for our children and grandchildren.
Due to budgetary [] constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008. ...
Did anyone else smell the irony here? And if you stepped in it, I bet it would stick to your shoe as well.
Don
Do your best to avoid circular arguments, as it will help you reason better, because better reasoning is often a result of avoiding circular arguments.
<< <i>Due to budgetary [] constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008. ...
Did anyone else smell the irony here? And if you stepped in it, I bet it would stick to your shoe as well.
Don >>
Yeah, that is pretty funny huh. Like an Onion headline.
<< <i>Interesting Roadrunner. 57loaded, maybe we need a network of Americans who don't bury their heads in the sand and don't bankrupt this great country for our children and grandchildren. >>
Yeah well that's Ron Paul but the mainstream media chose someone else.
There was a fairly well written piece on the op-ed pages of Friday's Wall Street Journal suggesting that a new gold standard would likely follow the phasing out of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is interesting that this idea (and the renewed significance of gold) is starting to show up in the mainstream press.
We have speculated on this before, but it is interesting to contemplate the price of gold required to support a gold standard in today's economy. Probably about $ 3000?
There was a fairly well written piece on the op-ed pages of Friday's Wall Street Journal suggesting that a new gold standard would likely follow the phasing out of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is interesting that this idea (and the renewed significance of gold) is starting to show up in the mainstream press.
You can bet the whole ranch that they will start blaming (more than usual) the greedy speculators in gold when the public finally demands a real accounting for where their retirement money went.
Somehow, the malfeasance practiced for years by Wall Street and the banks will be blamed on speculation, and the little guys who like precious metals will be swept up with the outcry. As sure as the sun sets in the West, this will be "the way out" for the politicians who have facilitated and encouraged this whole mess. And don't get me started about Goldman Sachs or J.P. Morgan.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>There was a fairly well written piece on the op-ed pages of Friday's Wall Street Journal suggesting that a new gold standard would likely follow the phasing out of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is interesting that this idea (and the renewed significance of gold) is starting to show up in the mainstream press.
We have speculated on this before, but it is interesting to contemplate the price of gold required to support a gold standard in today's economy. Probably about $ 3000? >>
The reintroduction of a gold standard is exceedingly unlikely. In the event of a sustained collapse of the dollar then an interim gold standard becomes likely but such a collapse itself is what's improbable.
I think we're up to about $6500 an ounce today if it were necessary. Such a monetary system would probably be phased out in a few months or quickly gutted by rule changes until it looked a lot like todays money.
<< <i>I wish I could have posted this link since it's formated better than the copy and paste but Market Watch all one one is on the dirty word list. You can copy and paste this line in just take out the "-"a between Market and Watch. This is a very good read. >>
do not underestimate the Indian market for gold and it's desire to purchase the "stuff" mostly in jewelry.
and if we do have a maipulator in the price of gold via IMF...then it would seem there is no immediate push to $960 and beyond.
Mr Buffett.... buffett's latest move this has had in impact on the stock markets today as well....it may be a dim light at the end of the tunnel, but right now it seems any wee bit of positive news will send the stock market up >>
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
I could see us retaining the dollar for internal consumption and a "gold" back currency dollar for International use.
More on the Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Total Value Ratio (Originally posted Wednesday, May 28, 2003, 6:05:00 PM EST) Author: Jim Sinclair
Q: Regarding the "Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Total Value Ratio" discussed recently on your web site.
If I understand you right, the US government is to rescue the dollar by promising to limit their issuance of dollars based on the amount of Treasury gold.
This is supposed to be some form of limited, modified gold standard. They never allow an audit of the physical gold said to be on hand. Even if the number of bars were counted, how would we know whom it really belonged to? Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: No it does not because there never will be an audit and 98% of the world will take whatever the Treasury says as gospel. Look at yesterday's rally in equities because each of those buyers believed what the government is saying.
Q: Whatever the ratio of dollars to gold which they promise to adhere to, what is to prevent them from later incrementally changing that ratio as has been done in the past? Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: Yes, that is possible. But a rescue for the dollar most likely in these terms will come if the two tax cuts, a war, the rebuilding of Iraq by US companies, and the spending of all allocated funds fails to deliver the economic conditions required for reelection of the present administration.
Q: If I understand you correctly, there would be no actual re-deemability of US dollars for gold. This is like a mortgage, which cannot be foreclosed. Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: That is correct. It is a balance sheet fix for a balance sheet problem and will work for some time if adopted.
Q: In short, how is this smoke and mirrors gold standard going to add any credibility to the dollar since it will depend entirely on confidence in the US government, which is exactly what has caused the problem?
A: Smoke and mirrors are what cause markets to occur. I comment on what I see coming. Nobody wants to hear me pontificate on what I think is correct. I am here to tell you what I see coming, not what I think should be coming.
If a modernized Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Ratio is adopted, gold will trade $100 above and below the gold price of that day, be it $1000, $1650 or some other price. The US Treasury will not have to do anything, as derivatives will first be listed to wager on this change thereby changing the gold price itself.
Like a company coming out of bankruptcy with a balance sheet balanced and some mechanism to permanently control that situation, the US dollar as the common share of USA Inc. will enter a long-term bull market.
Here is where Gold and Silver disconnect in direction. Silver goes up like a rocket and down like a rocket. Gold goes up like a rocket and stays there.
Mr. Walker, the head of the GAO, who has been giving us all these REAL numbers on the government debt, has resigned! He is going to be on Glenn Beck’s news show on CNN tonight to spill the beans, should be pretty interesting!
<< <i>The only gold at Fort Knox is a series of pictures of
the gold that used to be there. The gold was sold off
and for all we know, the space is now used to store used
furniture. >>
Talk about Dejavu...I remember the same bs story in the 70's. & low & behold when Congressional Delegates, with news cameras rolling, visited Ft. Knox .. to everyones surprise, the Gold was still there...
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
"The reintroduction of a gold standard is exceedingly unlikely. In the event of a sustained collapse of the dollar then an interim gold standard becomes likely but such a collapse itself is what's improbable. "
Cladking -- I agree with both points -- ie, that a new gold standard is unlikely, as is a collapse in the dollar. Probably the dollar's reserve currency will be phased out gradually in a process that has already begun, with a new mid-term standard based on some "basket" of currencies. I guess I can imagine gold being an element of this basket, so that we return to an "interim quasi-gold standard".
After this interim transition (perhaps within the next 30 years or so), I would not be shocked to see any international monetary standard developed under which money supply is computer driven under an agreed upon algorithm that eseentially ties some measure (I don't know which measure!) of electronic money growth to some measure of the size of the global economy. I believe that Milton Freedman thought some such approach could work, although it seems there are a few big issues such as (a) what measure of money, (b) what measure of world economy, and (c) how to account for changes in the velocity of money.
Comments
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>Just found this about Silver-Zinc batteries.
This company (Zpower) is planning on ramping up production in 2008 and has a lot of interest from various companies looking for smaller, less toxic batteries. This may impact silver prices over the next decade if the technology becomes dominant.
Zpower website >>
There is also a new type of computer patch cord being developed in India, works just like the standard Cat 6 but uses silver/copper mixture in the actual 8 wires.
Supposedly improves distance from 100 meters to 1000 meters with no signal loss. Great for third world countries as well, as it uses the standard connectors.
It's cheaper than fiber and when you figure in the labor involved, it has a huge upside. No new technology, just a new wiring media. When it finally comes on line commercially, it will require a great deal of silver. It may even become the dominant computer/network wiring media worldwide. Either way, it's good news for silver investors.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>what does the group think about a gold IRA account? >>
Stay away!
There's been discussion on this several pages back.
It's not a good thing to get involved with.
Too many restrictions and extra costs involved.
IRAs are for cash, which will be worth far less when you can finally access it without penalties.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Our IRAs and my SEP/IRA are still under government control, which means that they include a mix of oil and pipeline companies, SLV and an Intermediate T-Bill fund. Hopefully, the dollar won't be worth nothing in a few short years. I will yank the money out of there as soon as I can do it without feeling totally violated.
I knew it would happen.
This G7 flash is almost as good as Goldman's telling people gold was going to crash in 2008 and to get out now (all the while they were loading up and reducing their short position on the Tocom).
Do as Gordon Brown did for England by selling 50% of their gold reserves at the bottom of the market for $260/oz. What a shrewd investor old Gordie was. And for that stroke of genius they gave him the top job.
Believe me, the last thing the IMF or Central Banks want to do at this point is give away more gold for financial securities "with more yield." They gonna buy some TIPS at 3% yield when gold has been increasing in price at 25% per year the past few years?
history of asset securitization mania as brought to you by Greenspan
roadrunner
<< <i>Believe me, the last thing the IMF or Central Banks want to do at this point is give away more gold for financial securities "with more yield." They gonna buy some TIPS at 3% yield when gold has been increasing in price at 25% per year the past few years? >>
But the cabal has to do something to twart gold's rise.
So, you can buy SLV if you don't want to hold it, you can buy PM if you do want to. It does look poised to do something. Then there's the silver to gold ratio that speculators use in their play book. There are mining juniors that spring up like daffodils in the spring, many of which are shams and most of which will die on the vine before ever returning anything to investors. I've still got 300 shares of mining stock from the '80's...it was a dog, and it is still a dog and most certainly I will be buried with it. And, don't forget, silver is mostly a waste product, a throw off from mining more valuable metals like platinum or gold eventhough there have been large nugets found. For example, the Boot of Cortez. Largest gold nugget weighs oz., or from the Smuggler mine, a silver nugget Largest silver nugget is measured in lbs.
So silver is probably one of the most played metals ever. If you want to think of an oz of silver as a stock certificate worth $17 a share and you look at the cost of other stocks, maybe like gold at $900 a share or platinum at $1900 a share...what would you be more likely to buy or sell more of, plat or slv? The higher you go up the food chain, the pricier plays become.
So, here's the question: If you 10 oz of gold in one hand and 500 oz of silver in the other, which one do you think has the potential to make you more money in the year of '08? Simple question...
G7 approves IMF gold sales - Italy econ minister: "This is arguably a good time to consider selling some of these gold holdings and investing the proceeds in financial securities with positive yields."
Roadrunner, the part of that quote which I found most interesting was what followed next - something to the effect that the IMF would, of course have to get the U.S. to approve their portion of the sales. In other words, the outgoing IMF Chairman from Italy is trying to commit the U.S. to selling U.S. gold into the world market on behalf of the IMF.
Who actually owns the IMF anyway? Is it privately-held, like the FED, or is it a creation of some international treaty that continually sucks money from the U.S., like the UN does?
I find that rather telling. And somewhat disconcerting.
mhammerman, in 1978 terms, gold looks cheap - but silver looks much cheaper!
I believe that when silver decides to make it's move, it'll happen so quickly that most folks won't even know it's happening until the price has more than doubled. The dynamics are much different now than they were then. The dollar wasn't being destroyed back then.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
So, here's the question: If you 10 oz of gold in one hand and 500 oz of silver in the other, which one do you think has the potential to make you more money in the year of '08? Simple question... >>
I don't think anyone should consider silver a short term investment. It almost
always diasappoints. It's often a great short term speculation and can make
you a lot of money even without leverage.
But in the long term silver will do quite well almost certainly. While a recession
would hurt demand it would likely curtail supply much more. Buy physical, hold,
and wait. Eventually technology and demand will catch up.
Gold is insurance. It won't protect you from the end of the world but it can pro-
tect some of your assets against calamity and devaluations.
If the central banks really believe they can hold gold at these levels then '08 won't
be a very good year for gold. If they're just jawboning the price down the effect
will be short lived.
The main reason for this is the history of the gold:silver ratio.
Presently, it is a little high, that is, gold is 'expensive' relative to silver. Therefore, if you believe the ratio will migrate more towards its historical average, then silver is a no brainer decision over gold.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
roadrunner
http://www.market-watch.com/news/story/golds-path-1000-ounce-now/story.aspx?guid={397312DA-D203-4E77-83B6-47B7797D86DA}
NEW YORK (Market Watch) -- Gold dodged a bullet this past week. Gold bugs think this might have been the bears' last shot, and the path to $1,000 is now clear. On Feb. 1, gold was hit with massive waves of selling. By Tuesday's close it had lost over $40, taking it below $890. The technical damage was serious. Australian gold commentator The Privateer's long-term $U.S. 5 X 3 point and figure chart) turned down. See chart The Gartman Letter was spooked out of 40% of its gold holdings on Tuesday, and started talking of gold going down to $800.
Then gold counter-attacked. In The Privateer's words: "In the three trading days since Feb. 5, it reversed and stormed upward by $U.S. 32.50, closing (spot future basis) on Friday, Feb.8 $918.40 ... the gold price fell below both 10 and 20-day moving averages this week only to turn right around and move above them again by the end of the week. The shorter term moving average remains above its longer term counterpart."
Why? Close observers of gold futures' noted that "open interest" (the total number of futures contracts outstanding) rose as gold was going down and fell (sharply) as it recovered. This suggests short sellers being routed. Bill Murphy's LeMetropoleCafe triumphed with its proprietary monitoring of Indian gold prices. On Tuesday, with gold down around $890, the site reported that India, the world's largest gold buyer, was apparently importing, for the first time in weeks. This stopped again when gold rose back above $900. Implication: Indian demand, which has followed up since 2002, will underpin gold below $900. See Website
But gold bugs say there is more to gold's powerful recovery than the usual cycle of short sellers being bushwhacked by physical buyers.
For one thing, to quote The Privateer: "This snap back in the U.S. gold price has come in the face of a rising U.S. dollar ... Yes, the USDX did lose 0.3 points on Feb. 9 (while gold was rising $ 12.30) to close for the week at 76.82, but it still posted a gain of well over one full point in the week. Gold rose in spite of this."
Another thing: gold rose some $4 in after hours on Friday. This usually means aggressive U.S. fund activity.
But most of all: other commodity markets started behaving oddly at the end of the week. Dan Norcini, writing on Friday for Jim Sinclair's put it succinctly: "The entire commodity complex was on what can only be called a "roaring tear" today ... platinum, palladium, copper, crude oil, wheat, soybeans, corn, sugar were all soaring today. Sugar rallied 5%, stunning the shorts, while Minneapolis wheat was once again locked-limit bid with the hapless shorts completely unable to exit the market ... folks, I have seen some bull markets in my time as a trader but I have rarely seen anything like the Minneapolis wheat market. Take one look at what is happening to food prices and tell me that gold is not seeing what is taking place there ..." See Website This past weekend, yet again, the International Monetary Fund announced it would like to sell some gold. Since gold went bullish in 2002, official sector noises of this type have often appeared just as gold began an important move up. Further back, the IMF gold sales in 1978-80 heralded the great gold surge of that time. The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee, one of a number of gold bug operations that think gold's price is manipulated, put out a scathing press release. See Website
Nevertheless, as Dow Theory Letters' veteran Richard Russell put it: "Gold only 10 bucks from its high, and so far it hasn't let any of the "profit-takers" back in at lower prices. Ah well, the danger of trading out in a bull market."
Yea verily...let there be bull!
Excellent read, thanks for the article.
This concept just kills me. It's as if the fundamentals are completely imaginary. If they don't understand why PMs are acting the way they are, then they probably believe that McCain is a Conservative and they probably think that inflation is under control while the government spending is just a "blip."
Added @11:05AM - Wow, gold is dropping (down $15.00) after the IMF has approved gold sales.
Platinum is going up (up $8.00). I guess that the IMF doesn't have any Platinum stockpiled.
I knew it would happen.
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market. That's the good news for the gold bugs. But I'm gonna leave now, because gold has dropped enough for me to sell short a few more contracts.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market.
Again I ask - whose gold is the IMF "selling?" At one time, weren't IMF assets and IMF loans to developing countries backed by gold reserves from each of the members? So, how have all those giveaway "loans" worked out? I haven't been keeping track.
I knew it would happen.
In other words, the sentence can be construed as confining gold to within a specific trading range. This is what GATA calls manipulation, and now it's the official plan.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
http://www.everbank.com/001CertificatesMSGold.aspx?referid=12488
<< <i>I found a way to invest in gold with zero downside risk. It's a CD backed by the US govt. FDIC insured for $100,00.00 just follow this link.
http://www.everbank.com/001CertificatesMSGold.aspx?referid=12488 >>
SCAM!!!!!
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>I wish I could have posted this link since it's formated better than the copy and paste but Market Watch all one one is on the dirty word list. You can copy and paste this line in just take out the "-"a between Market and Watch. This is a very good read. >>
link to web page article via tinyurl to circumvent the 'dirty word'
good read
do not underestimate the Indian market for gold and it's desire to purchase the "stuff" mostly in jewelry.
and if we do have a maipulator in the price of gold via IMF...then it would seem there is no immediate push to $960 and beyond.
Mr Buffett....
buffett's latest move
this has had in impact on the stock markets today as well....it may be a dim light at the end of the tunnel, but right now it seems any wee bit of positive news will send the stock market up
thing is the person using a referral ID. which means he gets kickbacks
from any person who either visits or signs up for a service.
otherwise i would not wish to deal with a FL bank. something about
the whole state of FL smells like a scam ;-)
guym, we really do not care to be advertised to on this forum.
it is a natural reaction on our parts.
<< <i>Why do you say scam? If it's truly fdic insured then wheres the risk? >>
spam but not scam
<< <i>I got out at a profit from my earlier trade and shorted again at $920. The IMF story is very interesting, but they didn't say how they would sell their gold. Remember, for them it is a reserve, not an investment. They're probably thinking that gold holdings should correspond to a nation's capital accounts.
Thus there is a need for some nations to acquire more gold, and others to get rid of theirs. Such transactions may occur without either physical or paper hitting the market. That's the good news for the gold bugs. But I'm gonna leave now, because gold has dropped enough for me to sell short a few more contracts. >>
Shorting Gold!!!!???? Blasphemer
Actually I would be very wary of the most over played trade perhaps in the history of the currency markets. The unwinding may or may not impact the price of gold, but will be interesting to watch how it unfolds.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
We were discussing middle class slippage and some of the issues we were divining. I attempted a response but realized that even myself, wizzer of miraculous things, was fumbling with what should be a relatively simple question. Here is a better attempt:
Defining middle class
For information only, not an attempt at sparking a debate on the issue.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
Citi won't pay out on fund
<< <i>Excellent move to patch a sinking ship and restore confidence in our credit companies. I guess they think it is their money and not the investors money. Judith, please call my attorney.
Citi won't pay out on fund >>
Wow.... how many other funds that may follow suit??? Another example for everyone who is dealing in 'paper' assets....
I'm a firm believer in taking possession of any gold and silver that I own...... I suspect we will eventually hear stories how someone's precious metals have been 'frozen' or are non- deliverable.
Rob wonders why the $3 TRILL in credit derivatives that has tanked Citigroup stock has not had any effect on JPMorgan who holds $7 TRILL in derivatives. One thought is that the negative information is being covered up "legally" by the intelligence czar who has the authority to waive SEC rules per GW's directive. No such luck for Citigroup however who has been bashed about left and right.
According to this article the following economic reports are going bye bye just like the M3 tracking did a while back. Hard to believe that no one has use for retail and manufacturing reports and even GDP.
But don't want to scare Joe Consumer any earlier than necessary.
It's critical to keep all economic reports rosy or not report them at all.
Can't have a recession by definition without GDP reporting (lol).
Due to budgetary constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008.
Advance Monthly Sales for Retail and Food Services
Advance Report on Durable Goods
Construction Put in Place
Gross Domestic Product
Manufacturers' Shipments, Inventories, and Orders
Manufacturing and Trade: Inventories and Sales
Monthly Wholesale Trade
New Residential Construction
New Residential Sales
Personal Income and Outlays
Quarterly Financial Report
Quarterly Services
Retail E-Commerce Sales
U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services
U.S. International Transactions
roadrunner
<< <i>Rob Kirby digging up dirt once again
Rob wonders why the $3 TRILL in credit derivatives that has tanked Citigroup stock has not had any effect on JPMorgan who holds $7 TRILL in derivatives. One thought is that the negative information is being covered up "legally" by the intelligence czar who has the authority to waive SEC rules per GW's directive. No such luck for Citigroup however who has been bashed about left and right.
According to this article the following economic reports are going bye bye just like the M3 tracking did a while back. Hard to believe that no one has use for retail and manufacturing reports and even GDP.
But don't want to scare Joe Consumer any earlier than necessary.
It's critical to keep all economic reports rosy or not report them at all.
Can't have a recession by definition without GDP reporting (lol).
Due to budgetary constraints, the Economic Indicators service (http://www.economicindicators.gov) will be discontinued effective March 1, 2008.
Advance Monthly Sales for Retail and Food Services
Advance Report on Durable Goods
Construction Put in Place
Gross Domestic Product
Manufacturers' Shipments, Inventories, and Orders
Manufacturing and Trade: Inventories and Sales
Monthly Wholesale Trade
New Residential Construction
New Residential Sales
Personal Income and Outlays
Quarterly Financial Report
Quarterly Services
Retail E-Commerce Sales
U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services
U.S. International Transactions
roadrunner >>
maybe we need a doom and gloom network?
Did anyone else smell the irony here?
And if you stepped in it, I bet it would stick to your shoe as well.
Don
<< <i>Due to budgetary [
Did anyone else smell the irony here?
And if you stepped in it, I bet it would stick to your shoe as well.
Don >>
Yeah, that is pretty funny huh. Like an Onion headline.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>Interesting Roadrunner. 57loaded, maybe we need a network of Americans who don't bury their heads in the sand and don't bankrupt this great country for our children and grandchildren. >>
Yeah well that's Ron Paul but the mainstream media chose someone else.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
We have speculated on this before, but it is interesting to contemplate the price of gold required to support a gold standard in today's economy. Probably about $ 3000?
You can bet the whole ranch that they will start blaming (more than usual) the greedy speculators in gold when the public finally demands a real accounting for where their retirement money went.
Somehow, the malfeasance practiced for years by Wall Street and the banks will be blamed on speculation, and the little guys who like precious metals will be swept up with the outcry. As sure as the sun sets in the West, this will be "the way out" for the politicians who have facilitated and encouraged this whole mess. And don't get me started about Goldman Sachs or J.P. Morgan.
I knew it would happen.
Refinary explosion
<< <i>There was a fairly well written piece on the op-ed pages of Friday's Wall Street Journal suggesting that a new gold standard would likely follow the phasing out of the US dollar as reserve currency. It is interesting that this idea (and the renewed significance of gold) is starting to show up in the mainstream press.
We have speculated on this before, but it is interesting to contemplate the price of gold required to support a gold standard in today's economy. Probably about $ 3000? >>
The reintroduction of a gold standard is exceedingly unlikely. In the event of
a sustained collapse of the dollar then an interim gold standard becomes likely
but such a collapse itself is what's improbable.
I think we're up to about $6500 an ounce today if it were necessary. Such a
monetary system would probably be phased out in a few months or quickly
gutted by rule changes until it looked a lot like todays money.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wish I could have posted this link since it's formated better than the copy and paste but Market Watch all one one is on the dirty word list. You can copy and paste this line in just take out the "-"a between Market and Watch. This is a very good read. >>
link to web page article via tinyurl to circumvent the 'dirty word'
good read
do not underestimate the Indian market for gold and it's desire to purchase the "stuff" mostly in jewelry.
and if we do have a maipulator in the price of gold via IMF...then it would seem there is no immediate push to $960 and beyond.
Mr Buffett....
buffett's latest move
this has had in impact on the stock markets today as well....it may be a dim light at the end of the tunnel, but right now it seems any wee bit of positive news will send the stock market up >>
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
More on the Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Total Value Ratio
(Originally posted Wednesday, May 28, 2003, 6:05:00 PM EST)
Author: Jim Sinclair
Q: Regarding the "Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Total Value Ratio" discussed recently on your web site.
If I understand you right, the US government is to rescue the dollar by promising to limit their issuance of dollars based on the amount of Treasury gold.
This is supposed to be some form of limited, modified gold standard. They never allow an audit of the physical gold said to be on hand. Even if the number of bars were counted, how would we know whom it really belonged to? Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: No it does not because there never will be an audit and 98% of the world will take whatever the Treasury says as gospel. Look at yesterday's rally in equities because each of those buyers believed what the government is saying.
Q: Whatever the ratio of dollars to gold which they promise to adhere to, what is to prevent them from later incrementally changing that ratio as has been done in the past? Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: Yes, that is possible. But a rescue for the dollar most likely in these terms will come if the two tax cuts, a war, the rebuilding of Iraq by US companies, and the spending of all allocated funds fails to deliver the economic conditions required for reelection of the present administration.
Q: If I understand you correctly, there would be no actual re-deemability of US dollars for gold. This is like a mortgage, which cannot be foreclosed. Doesn't this make any such revived "gold standard" rescue attempt meaningless?
A: That is correct. It is a balance sheet fix for a balance sheet problem and will work for some time if adopted.
Q: In short, how is this smoke and mirrors gold standard going to add any credibility to the dollar since it will depend entirely on confidence in the US government, which is exactly what has caused the problem?
A: Smoke and mirrors are what cause markets to occur. I comment on what I see coming. Nobody wants to hear me pontificate on what I think is correct. I am here to tell you what I see coming, not what I think should be coming.
If a modernized Federal Reserve Gold Certificate Ratio is adopted, gold will trade $100 above and below the gold price of that day, be it $1000, $1650 or some other price. The US Treasury will not have to do anything, as derivatives will first be listed to wager on this change thereby changing the gold price itself.
Like a company coming out of bankruptcy with a balance sheet balanced and some mechanism to permanently control that situation, the US dollar as the common share of USA Inc. will enter a long-term bull market.
Here is where Gold and Silver disconnect in direction. Silver goes up like a rocket and down like a rocket. Gold goes up like a rocket and stays there.
the gold that used to be there. The gold was sold off
and for all we know, the space is now used to store used
furniture.
Camelot
<< <i>The only gold at Fort Knox is a series of pictures of
the gold that used to be there. The gold was sold off
and for all we know, the space is now used to store used
furniture.
some? most? West Point
<< <i>The only gold at Fort Knox is a series of pictures of
the gold that used to be there. The gold was sold off
and for all we know, the space is now used to store used
furniture.
Talk about Dejavu...I remember the same bs story in the 70's. & low & behold when Congressional Delegates, with news cameras rolling, visited Ft. Knox .. to everyones surprise, the Gold was still there...
a sustained collapse of the dollar then an interim gold standard becomes likely
but such a collapse itself is what's improbable. "
Cladking -- I agree with both points -- ie, that a new gold standard is unlikely, as is a collapse in the dollar. Probably the dollar's reserve currency will be phased out gradually in a process that has already begun, with a new mid-term standard based on some "basket" of currencies. I guess I can imagine gold being an element of this basket, so that we return to an "interim quasi-gold standard".
After this interim transition (perhaps within the next 30 years or so), I would not be shocked to see any international monetary standard developed under which money supply is computer driven under an agreed upon algorithm that eseentially ties some measure (I don't know which measure!) of electronic money growth to some measure of the size of the global economy. I believe that Milton Freedman thought some such approach could work, although it seems there are a few big issues such as (a) what measure of money, (b) what measure of world economy, and (c) how to account for changes in the velocity of money.
Maybe a probably for my daughter to solve!
owned by other Nations. This is because it is too expensive and
difficult to keep shipping the stuff around. As for going back on the
gold standard, you would have to back say only 1-2 % of the dollars
with gold. With the rapid change in the value of the dollar and the rapid
change in gold values,it would be a difficult problem at best. Further, this
Nation and most Nations ,are dedicated to rapid expansion of money. The gold
standard would limit Governments ability to print money in excess of all reason.
Camelot
If so, what do you guys feel about his foreign divedend paying stock strategy? Anyone doing it?
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/