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Update for:Solve the mystery and/or learn and/or teach others something - view the images and share

coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I am posting four images of the same coin for a very specific, learning/educational purpose, which will remain a mystery for now. I will tell you that the subject matter does NOT pertain to imaging or how a coin can look different, depending upon how it is imaged, etc.

Take a look at the images and (if you dare) share your thoughts about the coin with your fellow forum members. image

What strikes you about the coin and why did I post images here?

Answer to be revealed next Monday, December 6th.


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Comments

  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    AT!
    Mr. Thigpen

    Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Counterfeit. There is no such thing as a Saint from Dahlonega. image

    (Actually, I have no clue, but I know for sure that I cannot wait until Dec. 6 to find out the answer.) image
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • mdwoodsmdwoods Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭
    What strikes me most is that the obverse is nearly free of marks. Nice looking coin. I'd say it's original judging by the variations in the surface color but that is really a guess on my part.
    National Register Of Big Trees

    We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
  • solidsolid Posts: 2,975
    It is the same holder in all four photos - is it growing mold over time?
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
    A REAL woman can show some leg, stomp a group of lawmakers, pass a torch, and trim a tree all at the same time?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Nice strike, looks MS, some big marks on the torch, not much luster. Not sure why you felt the need to post four images of it. Low MS, maybe 60 or 61.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A REAL woman can show some leg, stomp a group of lawmakers, pass a torch, and trim a tree all at the same time?

    image

    I think the point might be that Saints can have a wide range of coloring. Depending on how you hold and rotate the coin, you might see pink, green, yellow, orange, and even aqua. I expect that the angle between the camera and the slab is varied between the different photographs.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    It's toning in the holder.
    Mr. Thigpen

    Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Other than it's hard to tell the grade in the picture, I really have nothing to add. I noticed a pretty large ding in the tourch. I look forward to the mystery being revealed.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...some big marks on the torch...

    Saints can have some pretty good whacks and still make the mid-MS range. I have a 63 that has such a huge hit in the face she looks like an ill-fated co-star in the old "Friday the 13th" series. From what I have heard, the luster is a major determinant of the grade of an uncirculated Saint.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The mark on the torch - all by itself - would not preclude a gem grade. The balance of the coin limits the grade to MS64 [IMO].
    Early Dollar Set
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minus the several hits on the torch I would have thought the coin looked squeaky clean, almost too good. The fields are essentially perfect which is very unusual. And there are very few marks on the torso of miss Liberty. Odd that the torch took some good whacks hile the fields remained undisturbed. Overall the obverse is no less than a MS65 and could be a 66.

    The "teener" saints do tend to come with more difuse luster but my first thought when I looked at the shine of the fields was that it could be a counterfeit. On MS specimens they often have too few marks. But since PCGS graded this, it's probably real.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Going out on a limb here and probably dead ass wrong, but I'd speculate this one's been either plated or thumbed (waxed or puttied). Somehow the surface has a 'treated' look that is probably a bit more apparent in hand.

    This will be a fun Thread to watch Mark. Thanks for the perplexing problem!

    peacockcoins

  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    I agree with Braddick. I would say thumbed based upon the color difference of the fields within the stars around the rim and the rest of the coin. Two totally different colors. It changed in the PCGS slab.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • PhillyJoePhillyJoe Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭
    I was immediately drawn to her left ankle. It it wasn't slabbed, I would have said this coin was plated. THAT part of the coin seems to change the most from picture to picture. Possibly cleaned, also?

    Joe
    The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition. image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    At first the putty theory came to mind, but maybe the point is more subtle than that. I remember seeing pictures of the 33 Saint and the experts at PCGS clamoring that it would grade 65. As a nongold collector its always been a mystery to me why digs like the one on the 33 and this one would garner it a 65 when a copper or silver coin with these kinds of marks would garner a 64 or less. I guess the lesson is that gold coins skate by with more marks for the grade then other metals do. Of course gold is softer but so what.
  • poorguypoorguy Posts: 4,317 ✭
    It appears that the color is fading from a greenish gold to a yellowish gold.
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
  • techefftecheff Posts: 2,285
    The plating is starting to erode, just below her left foot.
    image
  • gemtone65gemtone65 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
    The series of pictures do seem to suggest an attempt to hide the marks around the skirt by hazing over them, perhaps with a finger, and then doing the same to the rest of the coin to hide the original doctoring.

    Now, this is completely off topic, but it does relate to a comment made above by IrishMike about the 1933 Saint. The overall look of that coin in person is phenomenal. Without the single mark in the middle of the obverse, no one would be surprised if the coin graded MS67. So, how much do you take off for that defect? Perhaps a point or even two. But, given the eye appeal of that coin, I don't think most people who see it in person would feel it's overgraded at MS65.
  • ibzman350ibzman350 Posts: 5,315 ✭
    I have no clue, having only looked at a few these coins and owning 1 slabbed, I can't even venture a guess.

    I do have a question,

    Someone please explain what thumbed means.



    Herb
    Remember it's not how you pick your nose that matters, it's where you put the boogers.
    imageimageimage
  • ss350camaross350camaro Posts: 4,529
    I know absolutely nothing about Gold Coins but i would guess this one is a Gold Plated Copper counterfeit.


  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    for me for the photos and sight seen might be a different matter

    but

    the coin is a great thick skinned ORIGINAL unplayed with coin to me

    and the colors are due to an improper alloy mixture as it has this faint variable lilac coloration over the surfaces and also has the added red orange gold coloration that goes wlong with this improper alloy mixutre really uncommon on gold coins and not seen or understood even known about by most collectors

    and usually from my limited experience in coins is usually seen on later dated saints and on three dollar gold pieces and on later dated 1878 and later type three one dollar gold pieces

    all in biz strike format and more specifically mintstate grades a rare happening this improper alloy mixture on gold coinds as mentioned as per the above and not known about as they are not seen and so no demand and misunderstood as such

    cant have a demand on something more have not seen or know about or understand it when they do see it

    michael
  • KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    where is the back/reverseimage

    all 4 images reflect how the coin has "aged" from when it was originally slabbed to now, from top to bottom in sequential order?
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭
    This coin has impared luster which is not evident in any of the pictures.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • BowTieCoinsBowTieCoins Posts: 899
    RYK-(Actually, I have no clue, but I know for sure that I cannot wait until Dec. 6 to find out the answer.)
    image

    Torcher, I say! image

    Katrina
  • CaptainRonCaptainRon Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    My wag is -- Four pictures showing us just how loose grading can be on generic gold. Where the eyes attn is being drawn to the carbon spot on the T, hit on the torch, leg, and looks to me the face as well (probably shadow though).

    However with the clean fields it still was graded a 66.

    I do not think I have ever even held a Saint though, so what do I know.
    image
  • CaptainRonCaptainRon Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    Sheesh, almost forgot, can someone please PM on Monday when the answer has been posted. My memory is about as long as my err ummm I mean I have a short attention span.
    image
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    a great thread

    michael
  • TahoeDaleTahoeDale Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
    This coin is in varying stages of conservation, with the 2nd image the last stage
    TahoeDale
  • ccexccex Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
    The fields seem to get duller as the pictures progress, except from #1 to #2. I don't think that all photos of this coin were taken with the same angle and same lighting, but #4 has more gray areas.
    "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293 ✭
    This is why I don't buy gold coins. I have no clue, but I like picture one and think the rest look funky, so the top one is probably the reverse of what I think, and is doctered! Was it a MS-64 at some point at least?
    morgannut2
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't collect this series, but we have a few of gold 20s as family heirlooms from my grandmother, who refused to give them to the government in 1933.

    These are big, heavy coins, and the squeaky clean surfaces on this coin seem to be a bit peculiar.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
    No Clue. Tells me that you can't grade a coin from a photo - Coin could be an AU58 with slight rub, to an MS64 (a gift if a 64) - and it could have decent luster or it could be dull and litely thumbed with dental wax (or something similar to hide some lite lines to try for a MS grade). But to really determine what's going on with this coin it has to be held in hand and rotated sideways and up and down in good light to see how the surfaces interact with the light. Can't tell whether there's a touch of greenish toning (which would indicated unmessed with) or just a greenish reflection from the digital camera. No one seems to have mentioned the slight cut on Ms Liberty's right breast (left as you look at her) and possible flatness on her left knee (right as you look at her). Overall, I'm inclined to think the coin is a nice AU that someone messed with to try and get an Unc coin - But that's a WAG.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • nederveitnederveit Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭
    As long as WAG's are game, has anyone mentioned PVC being a possible cause for the continued change in this coin?
  • islemanguislemangu Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭
    teach others something

    Toned silver is much prettier than goldimageimage
    YCCTidewater.com
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    Picture #1 PCGS MS62 holder
    Picture #2 PCGS MS63 holder
    Picture #3 PCGS MS64 holder
    Picture #4 PCGS MS65 holder


    Just my WAG!
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Clue #1 : The images were shot within minutes of each other.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think RYK nailed it. Pix were shot at slightly different angles.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    The author stated that the way the pictures were taken have nothing to do with this thread, so accordingly it has to be something to do with the coin, unless of course I misinterpreted his original comments.

    Edited to add authors comments: I am posting four images of the same coin for a very specific, learning/educational purpose, which will remain a mystery for now. I will tell you that the subject matter does NOT pertain to imaging or how a coin can look different, depending upon how it is imaged, etc

    Maybe the point of the thread is to see how well we can read directions. image
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    Oh Oh, I know! It's a trick! The moral of the story is that if you take 4 different pictures of a coin and show them to someone, they'll find different problems in each.
    Mr. Thigpen

    Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Maybe the point of the thread is to see how well we can read directions. image >>

    No, Mike, that wasn't the point but maybe it should have been.image

    I repeat: "I will tell you that the subject matter does NOT pertain to imaging or how a coin can look different, depending upon how it is imaged, etc."
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
    Since this is educational, I'm guessing that the coin is NOT in a PCGS holder, it just appears that way to throw us off track. My guess is the coin has been lasered to smooth out the background to make it appear to be a gem coin. Those hits on the torch are not sufficient to lower below MS-66. PCGS is much, much more lienient on Saints than I would. The four pictures are to simulate the rocking back and forth of the coin.

    Tom
    Tom

  • ss350camaross350camaro Posts: 4,529
    Just for FYI: PCGS Price Guide Numbers


    Coin # ... Description ... EF ....... AU ..... 60 ....... 61 ...... 62 ...... 63 ....... 64 ....... 65 ........ 66 ....... 67
    9165 . ... 1914-D ......... 570 .... 580 .... 600 .... 650 .... 690 .... 700 .... 1050 .... 3500 .... 7400 ... -


    Again, I know so little about Gold Coinage that my input into this confusing, but intriguing, thread amounts to a copy and paste of out dated info imageimage
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks to me like two of the pics have lighting from only one source and two pics from two sources:

    #1 - light from approx 3:00 and 10:00
    #2 - light from approx 4:00
    #3 - light from approx 12:00 and 6:00
    #4 - light from approx 11:00

    The variable angles of lighting allows various features that would either detract from the grade or perhaps be more desireable to be enhanced or reduced in prominance.

    Just my WAG.
  • tlhoytlhoy Posts: 2,204
    Ok, I'll bite the suns affect on gold, you know Temp change, stuff like that.

    Glenn
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭


    << <i>Clue #1 : The images were shot within minutes of each other. >>



    Oh, that's easy! Since you said it has nothing to do with the images, it has to do with the wildly flucuating bullion prices lately: Coin 1 is worth $451; coin 2: $452; coin 3, $453; coin 4, $1000.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • tlhoytlhoy Posts: 2,204


    << <i>

    << <i>Clue #1 : The images were shot within minutes of each other. >>



    Oh, that's easy! Since you said it has nothing to do with the images, it has to do with the wildly flucuating bullion prices lately: Coin 1 is worth $451; coin 2: $452; coin 3, $453; coin 4, $1000. >>



    Thats good!

    Glenn
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,909 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, I'll take a shot ... no matter if I'm right or wrong as I will certainly want to know the answer ... good post Mark!

    The coin is graded AU58, and rightly so, although poictures are tough. When I look at picture #2 in particular I can see marks that were not made from roll friction or $20 to $20 contact (IMO), including the scrape across Liberty's left (facing) robe extending into the fields and several of the small field contact marks.

    I don't know this series but according to my guide, the head, right (facing) breast and knee are the most exposed highpoints. It appears there may be some rub on the breast, and maybe a few other areas ... again the pictures are tough ... but picture #2 seems to show the required possibilities for my AU58 call.

    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Clue #2 - PCGS graded the coin MS65.

    This thread was not meant to about grading, though I believe that those who graded the coin less than MS65 were being conservative. The marks/flaws mentioned by various forum members are quite small/minor, especially considering the type and size of the coin, as well as the enlarged images.
  • ss350camaross350camaro Posts: 4,529
    Ok, all 4 pictures are of the same coin. They were taken within minutes of each other. The mystery has nothing to do with the photography.
    The mystery has nothing to do with grading.

    All i can come away from this with right now is the fact that Mark can post 4 pics of the same coin and cause virtual hysteria image


    We have to wait until the 6th for an answer to this ??? image


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