As a gold novice, what I see is a nice looking 14-D, with some bagginess around the skirt that is well disguised by what I believe to be original toning. Looks like a coin that would be rewarded for originality, not luster, even though the teen gold doesn't have nearly the same flash as the late date stuff. I figure the coin a technical 4 with a bump for color and originality. JMO I'm anxious to learn from an informed opinion.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Let's see- nothing to do with grade, pics within minutes, mintage of 453,000. Book about 3300, and you are the owner. I wish there was a pic9s) of the reverse. Coin looks beautiful. My guess would be: what to look for when wanting a $3,000+ coin. is it the coin or who slabbed it? always buy the coin is what I read here. I like that idea, but because this one does have a few flaws on the pbverse- I would pass.
This might help. I only cropped the photos and added the number. The coins are exactly as they appear in Mark's photos except in a better perspective. Now that you can see them as a whole, what are your thoughts?
I'll take a crack, but start off by saying that gold is far from my specialty. What I see is a nice coin, Very slightly baggy with clean fields. If you look around the stars , you see the coin does have a lot of luster, but it is hidden under the hazy toning on most of the coin. There are a few hints of the cartwheel near the base of the coin and most notably around the stars. Nice coin and I bet it looks great in hand.
Mind you, I'm no gold person but here are a few of my observations. . .
With all this symbolism on the coin, Lady Liberty looks like Nike or some other Greek Goddess symbolizing strength, there's a star for every state in the Union (at the time), the olive branch which represents peace, the torch indicating maybe the light of knowledge or something like that, the rays of the sun (not sure what that might symbolize except maybe a new dawn). . .
and then there's this capitol building kind of wedged in there, what's up with that?
Also, why did they let St Gaudens display his mark so prominently on the coin when they gave V Brennan grief for doing something similar with the cent?
Coinguy1, My guess is that the coins were shot with the light above but moved in counterclockwise fashion from above about 2 O'clock to 10'clock creating different washout and shadows. Caveat: I have never taken a single coin picture.:-)
Coinguy- I still maintain the coin was graded at MS-64 at some point (and maybe AU-58!), but that's not the question is it! Either the surfaces have been altered or this is one of those rare birds that hasn't been messed with at all. This question is much too sophisticated for a Silver Dollar person, who is ignorant of gold coin surfaces in original condition!!!! More obvious stuff for us beginners, PLEASE!!!
Is the Haze on the Holder? I don't have much gold, but I none of it is Toned.
The Way you phased the question "What STRIKES you about this coin?" leads me to believe it has something to do with the weak areas of strike, and the multiple images light angles are to better show off the depth.- possible re-strike?
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
The left field among the sun's rays appears to had something removed from that area. It kind of looks like the way a cent looks after it has had some crud removed. . .the surface beneath the something-in-question either a) preserves that portion of the coin's surface from aging like the rest or b) alters that portion of the coin surface causing some kind of discoloration.
OK....How 'bout this.....It was stored/submitted to PCGS in one of those old "soft" 2X2's in which it sat in long enough to start getting a "haze" that can't be seen unless at a certain angle?
Since I'm a IHC guy, and don't know the answer, here's my WAG.
The radial flow lines seem to end abruptly at the periphery of the coin at the star level where the toning is also different. I would wonder if the coin has been messed centrally (chemical vs mechanical), removing the flow lines, then treated to restore a natural look ( I don't know specifically what works on gold coins).
Looking forward to the answer - thanks for the interesting thread.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
<< <i>Lady Liberty looks like Nike or some other Greek Goddess >>
That's because Augustus St. Gaudens modeled Miss Liberty after the Winged Victory of Samothrace, also called Nike of Samothrace, it is a marble sculpture now displayed in the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France. The Greek goddess Nike was the goddess of Victory. ST Gaudens would have been very familiar with this Statue as he studied Art in Paris. The Winged Victory of Samothrace is considered one of the great surviving masterpieces of Greek sculpture from the Hellenistic period (circa 300BC).
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Voices in my head are telling me to say that the coin has been pickled in some type of solution...over and over...over and over...why I ask?...no reply...should I listen or go see a psychiatrist?...
It looks like there is PVC damage to the rock under libertys left foot. If not PVC then must be some kind of acid treatment. That area of the coin is different from the rest of the coin. Just my WAG.
All I can assume is since the coin is still in the same holder and you are showing four pics, there has been some form of change to the coins surface over time, probably due to improper cleaning or storage prior to the coin being holdered. The purpose of the tread is to show that a coin isn't completely safe just because it is in a slab.That a coin should be properly conserved prior to holdering.
Just a guess since I don't really know a whole lot about gold coins...... yet.
edited to add: scratch this post...I guess I should have read the clues first.....
My first thought on the coin was that there are an awful lot of black fleck spots all over it and the surfaces didn't look right, kind of grainy. The color differences around the stars and on the ankles also struck me as funny. I think the coin may be puttied? Women's cosmetics??
Mark, I see the scaly area from the right shoulder to the rim, and I see the area from the R in Liberty to the branch that has no rim toning. What I can't see from the pics is whether that area has been worked, whether there's a clash, or whether the surface is disturbed. In the image, there almost appears to be evidence of a clash from the feathered portion of the eagle. The resolution is such that I just can't tell. If not, maybe the surface has been worked. Would lasering affect toning? I have no idea. It's an interesting question I'd love to know the answer to.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Each image appears to be taken with either varying degreees of lighting, angle or both. The coin has a "film" on it that could be original or may not be. The second image down shows the coin nearly completely covered by the film where the other 3 do not. This could be reality, or it could be variances in the imaging process.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
The coin has a "film" on it that could be original or may not be.
Agreed, at least based on the images. There is also a large but light disturbance in the film on the left side of the coin, but that doesn't mean the film is unnatural.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The images don't depict it nearly as clearly as I would have hoped (and that is my fault). But, there is either PVC or a substance (putty?) which was intentionally added to the coin's surface, on the upper part of Ms. Liberty, as well as her left (viewer's right) arm and above it.
When the coin is tilted and rotated under a light, you can see right through the substance to the lustrous surface beneath it. The remainder of the coin looks to be original, un-dipped, vibrant and quite attractive.
I submitted the coin to PCGS and asked them to remove it, whatever "it" is, and I will update the forum when I hear back from PCGS.
I would like to apologize publicly for starting this thread and posting images, but not doing a good job of putting myself in your shoes. You had to judge the coin just from my images, and they did not give you a clear enough view of what I could see in person.
I think I got excited about having a good coin in hand for a potential teaching/learning exercise. But, because of the unsatisfactory images, this didn't translate into the exercise I had hoped it would.
Thank you for your participation and your understanding.
thanks for the thread. i hadn't posted yet because for the life of me i couldn't see anything on the coin, even after all the clues. (still can't see it). no apology necessary, but i'm glad you finally solved the mystery!
Comments
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i> The different images were provided merely to show slightly different views/angles of the coin - nothing tricky is intended by this thread. >>
Ok Mark,
Let me ask you this then.
Since all 4 are the same coin, can you permanently remove 3 of the pictures right now and still make your point on the 6th ?
With all this symbolism on the coin, Lady Liberty looks like Nike or some other Greek Goddess symbolizing strength, there's a star for every state in the Union (at the time), the olive branch which represents peace, the torch indicating maybe the light of knowledge or something like that, the rays of the sun (not sure what that might symbolize except maybe a new dawn). . .
and then there's this capitol building kind of wedged in there, what's up with that?
Also, why did they let St Gaudens display his mark so prominently on the coin when they gave V Brennan grief for doing something similar with the cent?
Jeff
Semper ubi sub ubi
My guess is that the coins were shot with the light above but moved in counterclockwise fashion from above about 2 O'clock to 10'clock creating different washout and shadows.
Caveat: I have never taken a single coin picture.:-)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Ken
CG
The Way you phased the question "What STRIKES you about this coin?" leads me to believe it has something to do with the weak areas of strike, and the multiple images light angles are to better show off the depth.- possible re-strike?
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
SHIPWRECK EFFECT !!
That's my wag and I'm sticking to it!
Jeff
Semper ubi sub ubi
sat in long enough to start getting a "haze" that can't be seen unless at a certain angle?
Brian
Are you talking about that greenish gold oxidation thing happening? Good sign of original surfaces.
UFO!
But I think I found what it is. Need to check it out before I blabber.
Is it what's causing the toning along the rims that has a bluegray hue to it in some of your shots?
The radial flow lines seem to end abruptly at the periphery of the coin at the star level where the toning is also different. I would wonder if the coin has been messed centrally (chemical vs mechanical), removing the flow lines, then treated to restore a natural look ( I don't know specifically what works on gold coins).
Looking forward to the answer - thanks for the interesting thread.
<< <i>Lady Liberty looks like Nike or some other Greek Goddess >>
That's because Augustus St. Gaudens modeled Miss Liberty after the Winged Victory of Samothrace, also called Nike of Samothrace, it is a marble sculpture now displayed in the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France. The Greek goddess Nike was the goddess of Victory. ST Gaudens would have been very familiar with this Statue as he studied Art in Paris. The Winged Victory of Samothrace is considered one of the great surviving masterpieces of Greek sculpture from the Hellenistic period (circa 300BC).
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
The purpose of the tread is to show that a coin isn't completely safe just because it is in a slab.That a coin should be properly conserved prior to holdering.
Just a guess since I don't really know a whole lot about gold coins...... yet.
edited to add: scratch this post...I guess I should have read the clues first.....
Randy
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
Good eye. Maybe just an electronic ankle bracelet Miss Liberty wore while on parole?
<< <i>Look at the upper section (waist up) of Ms. Liberty and her left (to viewer's right) arm, in particular. >>
OK so she has B.O. ... big deal ... I don't think they had "Right Guard" back in 1914
Is there a scuff there? Is this a "circulated" MS-65 Saint?
Tbig
Ok, my bait is breathed . . . er . . . my breath is baited
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
But she thought is was only a balm, not a grade enhancing dip!
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
Agreed, at least based on the images. There is also a large but light disturbance in the film on the left side of the coin, but that doesn't mean the film is unnatural.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
the fog/haze
My Auctions
When the coin is tilted and rotated under a light, you can see right through the substance to the lustrous surface beneath it. The remainder of the coin looks to be original, un-dipped, vibrant and quite attractive.
I submitted the coin to PCGS and asked them to remove it, whatever "it" is, and I will update the forum when I hear back from PCGS.
I would like to apologize publicly for starting this thread and posting images, but not doing a good job of putting myself in your shoes. You had to judge the coin just from my images, and they did not give you a clear enough view of what I could see in person.
I think I got excited about having a good coin in hand for a potential teaching/learning exercise. But, because of the unsatisfactory images, this didn't translate into the exercise I had hoped it would.
Thank you for your participation and your understanding.
Ken
thanks for the thread. i hadn't posted yet because for the life of me i couldn't see anything on the coin, even after all the clues. (still can't see it). no apology necessary, but i'm glad you finally solved the mystery!
z