I think a man is only as good as his word (which in this case is his bid)....and I agree with them cancelling his account. I sold my entire Lincoln Cent Registry collection last June at Long Beach. One of my lots was bid up to $2400. I was very happy since I paid $600 for the coin a few years earlier. A dealer who I regularly buy coins from had been bidding against an absentee bidder. The dealers last bid was $2300. Once the auctioneer was told of the absentee bid of $2400....the dealer I knew said "Let them have it". Unfortunately....the bidder did not perform and pay the $2760 (including juice)....and I got the coin sent back to me. I obviously would have preferred the "reputable" dealer won the coin at the $2300 level...but someone had placed a higher bid....and there was nothing I could do. I went back to the dealer...but he didn't want to buy the coin any longer. It was only 1 of 140 coins I was selling at the auction (that the high bidder didn't perform)....but it was 1 of the 2 lots that I was MOST THRILLED with the prices realized on. One bidder can place a high bid....and it affects all of the future bidding. Don't bid...if you can't pay. You aren't the only one who has sh[t happen. We all do.........WHY DO YOU THINK I HAD TO SELL MY COINS???? I needed the money...otherwise I wouldn't have sold. Unfortunately......some loser bid on my coin and I am out the $2300 I would have otherwise had...if Heritage hadn't allowed this bidder permission to bid on my coin.
<< <i>Interesting.....the other side of the coin. Auction companies obviously gets put into some difficult situations. >>
Quite so. And the awkward part of it is that both the bidders AND the consignors are their customers...so you have a situation where accommodating one customer will screw another. Most good businesses which cultivate long term business relationships don't like to screw their customers, especially when the customer who would get screwed is completely innocent.
Something like that can't be taken lightly, and has to be done on a case by case basis. If the business need is compelling enough -- if both customers are that important to your long-term bottom line -- then maybe you accommodate both of them and eat the cost yourself, just to keep them both happy.
But that decision requires knowing the business importance of these two customers relative to the cost of sticking your own neck out and taking the hit. You don't want to be a total hardliner and say "tough luck" to a valued, profitable long-term customer...but it's also not easy to allow other innocent parties to get hurt (in the form of possibly lower sale prices to the consignor). No one ever said business or customer service was easy.
The bottom line is, sometimes you have to say "sorry, too bad" and sometimes you have to do what it takes to keep the customer happy. And here, only Heritage is in the position of knowing whether or not this customer is important enough to their profitability to determine whether or not they're willing to bite the bullet and bend the rules. And finally, as for the "money grubbing" claim, the last time I checked, Heritage was a for-profit business, so of course they are concerned with their bottom line. That requires not allowing yourself to get jerked around by unreasonable customers who add little to your income statement, all the while being willing to bend for others who are important to your business.
I think, perhaps, that the issue was exacerbated due to the ANA show starting this week and that many of the Heritage biggies were rather busy. That likely meant that the "peons" (ie...meant not as an insult but in general reference to the people doing the actual work) were probably more than busy as well and likely stressed.
No matter the fault, things most likely could have been handled a tad better or thought out better with future planning. It's a live and learn.
Everyone makes mistakes....the key is to learn from them and not make the same mistake again.
One final comment.....to some of the posters who believe a car may not be urgent/emergency.....it really depends. If one needed the car (the daughter in this case needs the car) for school/work/doctor's appts, etc, then I think that qualifies as more important than coins (oh, heaven forbid...did I put something above coins? ). If it were her 2nd/3rd car, well then, that goes waaaayyyyyyy below the bids.
But, none of us knows the reason for the car, right? We also don't know how old she is, the financial situation she is in, the need for the car, etc. It's not really our business. I don't think anyone on here would really want/need others knowing their business that intimately. So, I won't pass judgement (spelled with the "e" in this case ) on why the car is needed right now (maybe the amount of the bids that were winning were for the downpayment? Maybe for the whole car (could be used clunker) )?
Dave....best of luck to you moving forward..... Heritage....the situation may suck but it does happen. Hopefully the situation was handled better on the phone than it sounds like.
A Bid is a Bid is a Bid. Done Deal. Auctions are not a game.
This may sound harsh but don't place bids with money you don't have. If you don't have several thousand reserved (or Insurance) for real unexpected expenses you shouldn't be bidding in auctions. Coins are a hobby and should only be purchased with entertainment dollars. I think Heritage may not have handled this with customer sensitivity but they handled it properly to protect their business. Remember, they represent the consignor, not the bidder.
First of all. i want nothing else to do with Heritage ...I am the customer ...........................I asked them to cancel auctions way in advance on the Bullet auction only....nothing else!!!!!! the girl got nasty and arrogant with me before i got mad ... the reason for me canceling the bids is of no concern ,it should not matter, i tried to do the right thing and got slaped in the face..
I give them money. they dont give me money .no matter what i am right .
i sell coins all the time, i have been asked if it is ok for them to remove bids on Ebay i always say yes , i dont care .. they are the customer if they are not happy i am not.
i have sold to lots of members on the Board and purchased lots and have never once had a problem ..Because when they are the customer they are Right and when i am the customer i am right..
<< <i>First of all. i want nothing else to do with Heritage ...I am the customer ...........................I asked them to cancel auctions way in advance on the Bullet auction only....nothing else!!!!!! the girl got nasty and arrogant with me before i got mad ... the reason for me canceling the bids is of no concern ,it should not matter, i tried to do the right thing and got slaped in the face..
I give them money. they dont give me money .no matter what i am right .
i sell coins all the time, i have been asked if it is ok for them to remove bids on Ebay i always say yes , i dont care .. they are the customer if they are not happy i am not.
i have sold to lots of members on the Board and purchased lots and have never once had a problem ..Because when they are the customer they are Right and when i am the customer i am right.. >>
Basically I had some compassion for both parties concerned untill I read this. Heritage did the right thing when they dumped you. This old BS about the customer is always right is exactly that, BS. Its a two way street with everything in life. People need to learn this.
Dave your statement was one way only. What a shame.
LOL, I can imagine how this discussion went between Heritage and Mr. "i'm always right." You may be able to hollar louder, but that doesn't mean you are right. You started this thread concealing unfavorable information and when caught on it resorted to "the customer is always right" routine. I agree with Fatman, a bid is your word and your word is worth very little. Heritage is better off without your business. There is a reason they won't take you back without a credit application...they don't think your word is worth anything.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
A bid is a bid...I like that one....There have been plenty of times I have wanted out maybe bit off a little too much..but ya gotta pay up..because a bid is your word..Dave you should've asked for a little time to pay maybe but retracting all those bids....not cool.. Bruce Scher
Like I said that is a old wives tale. Trying to make every darn person happy is impossible. Trying to make the majority of reasonable people happy should be the goal. Work, business,and just about anything could have the previous statement applied to them. This was learned 30 some years ago when my first foreman job was attained. Making everyone happy caused more problems than were solved. If you cannot be flexible, which seems like you do not want to be for some reason, then I agree with what Heritage did.
Maybe a call to them Tuesday can solve some of the grief you have at this time. This will take a little flexibility on your part with a partial admission that you, the customer, was not right in the situation.
I didn't intend to get involved in this thread, but I have lived all of my life by one standard, and that is my word is my bond, and a bid is no different......
There were alot of choices for one to make in this situation, but the most important one was making sure that you had the money up front to cover your bids and you apparently didn't, end of story.
<< <i>I didn't intend to get involved in this thread, but I have lived all of my life by one standard, and that is my word is my bond, and a bid is no different...... >>
"A Winning Bid is a Bond " not a bid
Heck by your statment i would be out $300,000 a year for the last 6 years
I have to disagree. A bid is a bond. So is a winning bid. Many times in the not too distant past I had bid beyond my ability to pay figuring I would be covered by lots not won. It didn't always happen though. On a few occasions I won more lots than I figured, and had to tap into credit cards, sell off other coins quickly at less than market value or even take out a loan from a relative to pay off other coin bills. Bidding can become a disease not unlike gambling. IF you bid, you honor them. If you win, you pay up. Those are the rules. No one forces us to pay. After a few bouts of the above I figured out better ways to balance things out. I don't see any fault in Heritage's stance.
Someone needs to drop a flag on this thread. The title of this thread is completely out of line as well as a number of comments posted to it. I will stay out of the argument of who was right and who was wrong but the title is definitely an exaggeration. I took some large beatings financially in this hobby back in the late 80's and early 90's and have shared the story with a select few but the numbers were staggering.
No biggie I took a risk and loss but it was money I could afford to part with even though it was quite a painful ordeal. My point is that I see so many folks taking this hobby was too seriously, by this I mean attempting to purchase coins when perhaps the financial situation isn't conducive to it. This should be a part of a budget like everything else and don't buy or bid if its money you are going to need if something that does come up (pardon the banker in me). Spend some time reading books on the hobby, learning more about it while salting away funds to pursue purchases or sell some of those hoards that I know some of you including myself have accumulated.
Heritage didn't deserve to be ripped like this IMHO.
<< <i>Heck by your statment i would be out $300,000 a year for the last 6 years >>
Then so be it...... If I place a bid in an auction, and I win it I pay for it pure and simple....... I have never retracted a bid, nor have I ever failed to pay for what I've won in an auction.....
Real simple Dave if you bid on something in an auction plan on paying for it if you win it..... If you're bidding without having the reserve to pay for it, then you should have been prepared to make other arrangements, especially since Heritage has a 6 month payment plan.....
As I said your word "should" be your bond come hell or high water, and a bid is no different than your word.
My thoughts: Perhaps if you approached Heritage with the same problem and you gave them 8 to 9 (key is keeping it in single digits) of the highest bids that comprised the bulk of the dollars you were bidding you might have been able to still do the car and the remaining coins.
I have a feeling the Heritage employees might have become (somewhat unjustly) annoyed at your request to cancel 30 bids. It does sound like a lot. That is a lot of work for them to go in and cancel all of those bids. I suspect that was as much of the issue as the money itself. Not that they are blameless and certainly they should have been much more accomodating. But they were probably working with a skeleton crew and may have panicked just a bit.
With a requst to step down the 8 or 9 bids to a losing level rather than an outright cancelling might have made it easier for all concerned. Then the rest of your bids would probably have been incredible bargains that we would have wanted to swoop them up and thank you in the process.
Ksteeler did not say you were wrong just that there is a sharing of this problem and that you had to take some (not all, not most but SOME of the heat). But if they were such bargains anyway, you could have easily taken advantage of the 6 months to pay policy at Heritage and flipped the coins. In some cases, even winning the coins and then asking them to re-auction them quickly might have also helped as well for just a few of the coins.
ADDED: Agreed that what Heritage should have done is temprarily lowered Big Dave's credit limit to about $1000 to $2000 maximum so hat he is not "out" as a customer but more restricted until Big Dave calls up and says that he is now able to resume normal bidding activities. The credit application part seems to be an overreaction since Big Dave's payment record had never been an issue.
But heck, who's perfect? I was even 8 months late because somehow my payments on a specific lot got fouled up because I kept giving the credit card payment info to two different people who had alreaduy left Heritage (one of them being Simonetti!)
As a CPA, I'm with IrishMike on this. I've been around this hobby for decades, witnessed the big precious metal bust of 1980, etc.
I always tell clients to prioritize their spending. Ie., what bills must you pay every month? Once those are covered, you have some money for discretionary spending. I practice what I preach; I've passed on the finest BN type Draped Bust 1/2 Cent that's probably out there because I could not afford it at the time.
Lastly, FWIW, re the material I collect, I don't think there's value to be had out there are the current prices.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Come on Paul - how insulting to ask your former good customer to fill out a credit app. You admit this was a one point in time matter. I really think your company is arrogant and does not deserve the business of anyone on this forum when you go around yanking long time customers membership. I have no problem with your not cancelling the bids - but removing the customer from your data base is insulting. If you are going to boycott individual customers the only way we have to fight back is to collectively boycott Heritage.
I think Paul Minshull/Heritage had an appropriate and measured response to this situation. When you see it from their perspective and the perspective of the potential other bidders and consigners, it is quite eye-opening. As a very frequent underbidder, I can only imagine the nightmare of waking up and seeing that I am now the high bidder on auctions that I had previously been an underbidder and since moved on. That would be extremely unfair and could put me in financial durress.
BIGDAVE, I know that you want this to end. One way to make this thread end would be to change the title. Until then, I suspect that people are going to continue to post and side with Heritage.
<< <i>As a very frequent underbidder, I can only imagine the nightmare of waking up and seeing that I am now the high bidder on auctions that I had previously been an underbidder and since moved on. That would be extremely unfair and could put me in financial durress. >>
Hey!! With any bid in any auction you should be prepared for the possibilty that it might be the winning bid. You shouldn't be moving on until its over. In Dave's case he apparently felt that he wasn't going to win all or most of them anyway.
The total bids for all 30 auctions was.$2750 if i had won yes i would have paid.... i never bid anything i can not back up..i would have just made my daughter wait a week ..i am sorry i put her above my coins let me give a example of one of my bids.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are the current high bidder on Auction #353, Lot #734: Proof Mercury Dimes: 1939 10C PR63 Full Bands ANACS. Boldly defined, with ... Your secret maximum bid was in the amount of: $45.00 ($51.75 with BP) After processing all the open bids for this lot, the current bid price is $1.00 ($7.00 with BP)
all 30 lots i was high bidder at $1..... thats it $1.
i was trying to do the right thing and cancel in advance so no one would have to bid for nothing.
fine i should have just got outbid like always .. i was wrong for trying to do the right thing..
Come on Paul - how insulting to ask your former good customer to fill out a credit app. You admit this was a one point in time matter. I really think your company is arrogant and does not deserve the business of anyone on this forum when you go around yanking long time customers membership. I have no problem with your not cancelling the bids - but removing the customer from your data base is insulting. If you are going to boycott individual customers the only way we have to fight back is to collectively boycott Heritage.
now that's quite arrogant bordering on obnoxious - what did Heritage do wrong? I'm sorry I disagree as many others here do too. BidDave made a boo boo and I be;lieve deep down he knows what went wrong. This nonsense about Heritage is off totally - the few who have knocked them are probably on there BLACK list already for similar tactics or worse. I'm not saying Heritage is above error - heck have you never heard of a BMW breaking down or a room at the Ritz that had defective shower handle?? The title to this thread is way off and totally unjustified. That said I still wish you luck as I did way back in the beginning when we did not even know all the details . I still believe you can work it out amicablky with a point person at Heritage.
Heritage's pulling a customer out of its data base is not isolated to Big Dave. This is a tactic that it appears Heritage has repeatedly used to threaten customers who have legitimate disputes. I find this practice insulting. As noted above, I have no problem with their taking a hard line position on a specific dispute, but to retaliate as they do by blacklisting former good customers is nothing less than pure arrogance which in my opinion is inexcuseable. The persons who are ultimately hurt are the consignors. Big Dave will likely not be bidding at another Heritage Auction in his life. This has narrowed the pool of potential bidders in future auctions. Take this tactic and multiply it by the numerous other customers who have been blacklisted by Heritage and you will soon see that the highest possible price is not going to be realized by the customer who consigns his coin to Heritage. This is really an example of cutting ones nose off to spite one's face. Pure and simple arrogance and nothing less. Believe me it appears to most likely have to do with the personalities of certain people at Heritage who place their personal egos above all else, and until they get a taste of their own medicine by the coin collecting community boycotting them back it will continue unabated.
<< <i>Heritage's pulling a customer out of its data base is not isolated to Big Dave. This is a tactic that it appears Heritage has repeatedly used to threaten customers who have legitimate disputes. I find this practice insulting. .......to retaliate as they do by blacklisting former good customers is nothing less than pure arrogance which in my opinion is inexcuseable. The persons who are ultimately hurt are the consignors. Big Dave will likely not be bidding at another Heritage Auction in his life. >>
I've been dealing w/Heritage for years, and Steve Ivy before that. It is now a big business, not your neighborhood coin store. The have tons of employees on the top two floors of a hi-rise building (a lot of overhead to support), company policies, etc.
I had a minor dispute when I "returned' a coin bought on a Heritage "internet only" auction. Actually, I never even took possession of it as I went to their office and one look told me it was not a PF65 Morgan! I was informed that I would have to pay a 10% restocking fee.
I told 'em to take a hike and stuff it. I later received a phone call from one of their VPs, who agreed to waive the charge in this one case (after I had him look at the POS and mentioned that it had apparently been returned twice before).
After he lectured me on the need to conform to their policies, etc., I said "fair enough, I'll never bid on one of your acutions again." That was about 4 years ago and, while I still do business w/Heritage, I've never bid on any of their auctions since then. Never have, never will!
I have been in business a long time and know customers are often short cash. While this is a problem, to call some one a dead beat is very unprofessional.
Since this thread has been given new life it is quite clear that this title needs to be changed in fairness to Heritage, who simply did what they said they would do in this situation. Maybe we should all read the terms of agreement prior to clicking the bid button.
And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive.
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend!
The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em!
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend! The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em! >>
Bidders do not exist without consignors. You have to take care of number 1 first. Don't get me wrong here, Heritage is obligated to act professionally with all bidders and provide excellent service in completing the transaction. But don't kid yourself, this servicing of the high bidder is only an extention of service their customer, the consignor. Taking care of bidders is one of an auction houses sales tools. Obviously having a reputation for professional transactions is a plus, but I can assure you that a reputation of allowing bidders to easily cancel bids with no repercusion would quickly put an auction house in jeopardy.
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend! The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em! >>
Bidders do not exist without consignors. You have to take care of number 1 first. >>
Ask yourself a "Willie Sutton" and go where the money is.
Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers.
Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
How absurb is the above statement? Come on now MBT? The "juice" is paid for by the SELLER. Period. Anyone who says different hasn't thought this one out very carefully. The seller pays all comissions and fees. The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue.
But it is also true that you need bidders, winners and underbidders.
Moving from Heritage to Superior is no big move imo. I guess the memory of TAGZ and all their tactics have faded from memory. Don't expect any better treatment there. These are the same guys that have been "alleged" to ignore customers at coin shows if they don't appear to be big spending fish. I'd have stuck with HNAI. Did you really bid $1 on a bunch of lots? I always wondered who does this and why?
<< <i>Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers. >>
Can't agree. In one way or another, the seller is paying the juice.
Let's say I, the buyer, am willing to pay $100 for a coin. With a 15% buyer fee and NO seller fee, I can enter a bid of about $85 and the total would come to about $100 with the juice. The seller gets the $85 I bid.
Let's now make it where the seller pays the juice. As a bidder, I still bid $100 -- I don't care how the fees are handled as long as I pay $100 either way -- but now the auctioneers take their 15% "pound of flesh" from the seller, so that $100 becomes $85.
Either way, the buyer pays about $100, the seller receives about $85 and the auctioneer takes about $15. That would also be true where buyers and sellers split the fees. In the end, it's much ado about nothing unless bidders don't take their juice into account when bidding. In which case, they overpaid.
[qHeritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers. >>
"Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
How absurb is the above statement? Come on now MBT? The "juice" is paid for by the SELLER. Period. Anyone who says different hasn't thought this one out very carefully. The seller pays all comissions and fees. The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue. "
I stand by my statement--every auction invoice I have sez "bider's fee" or the like, and it's an add-on to the buyer's payment. Granted, you can make a case that it actually comes out of the seller's hide, but the point is that the buyer/bidder IS a revenue generating customer of Heritage.
I stand by my statement--every auction invoice I have sez "bider's fee" or the like, and it's an add-on to the buyer's payment. Granted, you can make a case that it actually comes out of the seller's hide, but the point is that the buyer/bidder IS a revenue generating customer of Heritage.
It's not a question of making a case where the BP fee gets paid from. It comes from the seller......period. Anyone that bids is of course a potential generator of income....except those bidding 10-50% of a coin's value (50% of the bidders). Those have no impact on revenue generation unless they at some point actually force a lot higher. Heritage may have X thousands of "bidders" but how many actually force bids higher at market levels?? Bidding $300 on a $1000 lot on a lot does not generate revenue. That just wastes time.
I've been in this hobby for 30 years attending auctions and have never yet paid a fee over and above what a coin is worth....let along 15%. The auction houses came up with this scheme in the late 1980's to generate more revenue because 10-15% of the take was not enough money. Now they get closer to 20% of the take. They could have called it seller's fee #2 but instead called it a 'BP." If you don't understand this basic concept you ought to steer clear of auctions. This is semantics.
BP + SP = total fees paid by seller to the house.
Sure there's a BP on your invoice but it didn't come out of your pocket unless you don't know how to back off your bids by 15% in an auction setting. The question is not what they call it, but WHO PAYS IT.
<< <i>The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue. >>
HUH??! Then why is there a BP added on to the Buyers bid ??? >>
The point is that in one way or another, the seller is paying for it (even if indirectly). If you shift the 15% fee to the buyer, the buyer bids about 15% less, and the net effect to the seller -- the amount they receive from the auctioneer -- should be no different than if the seller paid all the fees directly.
The principle argument on the seller paying the fee, either way, is correct. However, reality is not that.
If it is all the same, why do the auction companies title it "Buyer's premium"? It is to get seller's coming to them.
The thing that makes the difference is that people are not always logical in an auction. There is such a thing called "auction fever" and most of you know that.
Now, for someone in the business for 30 years and having done this, you can bet you know your coins, the market, and are more rational. However, there are MANY people who get caught up in the auction fever.
If the coin is worth $100 and there is 15% BP, then the coin is worth an $85 bid, right? Using your reasoning (which is sound). So, $85bid+$15 bp=$100 coin.
However, the auction houses show the bid (and then in smaller numbers and slightly separated, the bp and full amount, right?).
So, there are more than likely many people who end up getting caught up in the bidding and may not want to lose the coin by a few dollar, so they may bid $90, $95, even $100. They still pay the bp.
So, your reasoning is right if everyone plays smart...but not everyone does. To assume so is wrong and contrary to what anyone having been in auctions and watching things go for too much $$$ can tell you.
So, imho, I believe the bidder pays the fees. The fee gets paid one way or another, the auction house makes the money.
In the end, without the consignor, there is no auction and no fees, and by the same token, without the bidders, there is no auction and no fees. Both are equal customers. To ignore that is ludicrous.
Heritage is a broker , therefor BOTH the buyer AND seller are customers. It best to provide customer service and I've stated before that it appears some people at Heritage did not perform in an acceptable business manner but if anyone believes that the "customer is always right" Please, PLEASE open a business so I can come by and screw you over.
Maybe BIGDAVE should change the thread title again, to something like, Who is really paying the fees to the money grabbing bunch of $$&*#@$$!!`at Heritage? The seller or bidder?
Contrary to the assertion by MBT, it is indeed the seller not the buyer who bears the selling cost. The seller is basically at the mercy of the market, and buyers can adjust their bids to reflect whatever buyer's premium is placed upon them. The fact that the buyer is initially paying this fee is not relevant for determining the net price received by the seller. This net price would be the same regardless of whether the fee is provisionally placed on the buyer or seller.
So, why have the auction terms changed in the past 10 years or so from seller's to buyer's fees? The answer probably has to do with improving the auction house's strength in negotiating with consignors. In the past, seller's fees of anywhere from 5% to 25% were common, depending on size, value and content of the consignment, along with the ability of the consignor himself to negotiate a deal one on one. Now, the auction house offers much less flexibility: the buyer's commission is fixed at 15% for most lots, and of course the house doesn't have to negotiate at all with buyers.
Moreover, some customers may even be fooled into thinking they are getting a great deal when the auction house tells them they are being charged only 5% to 10%. Of course, this is on top of the 15% already being charged to buyers. But, the "zero commission" come- on seems to have some appeal with potential consignors -- even though it's usually a sham.
Comments
<< <i>Interesting.....the other side of the coin. Auction companies obviously gets put into some difficult situations. >>
Quite so. And the awkward part of it is that both the bidders AND the consignors are their customers...so you have a situation where accommodating one customer will screw another. Most good businesses which cultivate long term business relationships don't like to screw their customers, especially when the customer who would get screwed is completely innocent.
Something like that can't be taken lightly, and has to be done on a case by case basis. If the business need is compelling enough -- if both customers are that important to your long-term bottom line -- then maybe you accommodate both of them and eat the cost yourself, just to keep them both happy.
But that decision requires knowing the business importance of these two customers relative to the cost of sticking your own neck out and taking the hit. You don't want to be a total hardliner and say "tough luck" to a valued, profitable long-term customer...but it's also not easy to allow other innocent parties to get hurt (in the form of possibly lower sale prices to the consignor). No one ever said business or customer service was easy.
The bottom line is, sometimes you have to say "sorry, too bad" and sometimes you have to do what it takes to keep the customer happy. And here, only Heritage is in the position of knowing whether or not this customer is important enough to their profitability to determine whether or not they're willing to bite the bullet and bend the rules. And finally, as for the "money grubbing" claim, the last time I checked, Heritage was a for-profit business, so of course they are concerned with their bottom line. That requires not allowing yourself to get jerked around by unreasonable customers who add little to your income statement, all the while being willing to bend for others who are important to your business.
That likely meant that the "peons" (ie...meant not as an insult but in general reference to the people doing the actual work) were probably more than busy as well and likely stressed.
No matter the fault, things most likely could have been handled a tad better or thought out better with future planning.
It's a live and learn.
Everyone makes mistakes....the key is to learn from them and not make the same mistake again.
One final comment.....to some of the posters who believe a car may not be urgent/emergency.....it really depends.
If one needed the car (the daughter in this case needs the car) for school/work/doctor's appts, etc, then I think that qualifies as more important than coins (oh, heaven forbid...did I put something above coins?
But, none of us knows the reason for the car, right? We also don't know how old she is, the financial situation she is in, the need for the car, etc. It's not really our business. I don't think anyone on here would really want/need others knowing their business that intimately.
So, I won't pass judgement (spelled with the "e" in this case
Dave....best of luck to you moving forward.....
Heritage....the situation may suck but it does happen. Hopefully the situation was handled better on the phone than it sounds like.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This may sound harsh but don't place bids with money you don't have. If you don't have several thousand reserved (or Insurance) for real unexpected expenses you shouldn't be bidding in auctions. Coins are a hobby and should only be purchased with entertainment dollars. I think Heritage may not have handled this with customer sensitivity but they handled it properly to protect their business. Remember, they represent the consignor, not the bidder.
Bidding is fun.
Paying isn't
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
the reason for me canceling the bids is of no concern ,it should not matter, i tried to do the right thing and got slaped in the face..
I give them money. they dont give me money
.no matter what i am right .
i sell coins all the time, i have been asked if it is ok for them to remove bids on Ebay i always say yes , i dont care .. they are the customer if they are not happy i am not.
i have sold to lots of members on the Board and purchased lots and have never once had a problem ..Because when they are the customer they are Right and when i am the customer i am right..
<< <i>First of all. i want nothing else to do with Heritage ...I am the customer ...........................I asked them to cancel auctions way in advance on the Bullet auction only....nothing else!!!!!! the girl got nasty and arrogant with me before i got mad ...
the reason for me canceling the bids is of no concern ,it should not matter, i tried to do the right thing and got slaped in the face..
I give them money. they dont give me money
.no matter what i am right .
i sell coins all the time, i have been asked if it is ok for them to remove bids on Ebay i always say yes , i dont care .. they are the customer if they are not happy i am not.
i have sold to lots of members on the Board and purchased lots and have never once had a problem ..Because when they are the customer they are Right and when i am the customer i am right.. >>
Basically I had some compassion for both parties concerned untill I read this. Heritage did the right thing when they dumped you. This old BS about the customer is always right is exactly that, BS. Its a two way street with everything in life. People need to learn this.
Dave your statement was one way only. What a shame.
Ken
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
Bruce Scher
Like I said that is a old wives tale. Trying to make every darn person happy is impossible. Trying to make the majority of reasonable people happy should be the goal. Work, business,and just about anything could have the previous statement applied to them. This was learned 30 some years ago when my first foreman job was attained. Making everyone happy caused more problems than were solved. If you cannot be flexible, which seems like you do not want to be for some reason, then I agree with what Heritage did.
Maybe a call to them Tuesday can solve some of the grief you have at this time. This will take a little flexibility on your part with a partial admission that you, the customer, was not right in the situation.
Take Care.
Ken
i thank you and everyone for there input, good or bad .I have already made my mind up not to deal with Heritage anymore ,
thank you all
David
END
There were alot of choices for one to make in this situation, but the most important one was making sure that you had the money up front to cover your bids and you apparently didn't, end of story.
<< <i>I didn't intend to get involved in this thread, but I have lived all of my life by one standard, and that is my word is my bond, and a bid is no different...... >>
"A Winning Bid is a Bond " not a bid
Heck by your statment i would be out $300,000 a year for the last 6 years
roadrunner
No biggie I took a risk and loss but it was money I could afford to part with even though it was quite a painful ordeal. My point is that I see so many folks taking this hobby was too seriously, by this I mean attempting to purchase coins when perhaps the financial situation isn't conducive to it. This should be a part of a budget like everything else and don't buy or bid if its money you are going to need if something that does come up (pardon the banker in me). Spend some time reading books on the hobby, learning more about it while salting away funds to pursue purchases or sell some of those hoards that I know some of you including myself have accumulated.
Heritage didn't deserve to be ripped like this IMHO.
<< <i>Heck by your statment i would be out $300,000 a year for the last 6 years >>
Then so be it...... If I place a bid in an auction, and I win it I pay for it pure and simple....... I have never retracted a bid, nor have I ever failed to pay for what I've won in an auction.....
Real simple Dave if you bid on something in an auction plan on paying for it if you win it..... If you're bidding without having the reserve to pay for it, then you should have been prepared to make other arrangements, especially since Heritage has a 6 month payment plan.....
As I said your word "should" be your bond come hell or high water, and a bid is no different than your word.
<< <i>A Winning Bid is a Bond " not a bid >>
<< <i>Heck by your statment i would be out $300,000 a year for the last 6 years >>
I don't understand this statement.
Does this mean that you have had 300,000 a year in bids you made but never followed through with?
My thoughts: Perhaps if you approached Heritage with the same problem and you gave them 8 to 9 (key is keeping it in single digits) of the highest bids that comprised the bulk of the dollars you were bidding you might have been able to still do the car and the remaining coins.
I have a feeling the Heritage employees might have become (somewhat unjustly) annoyed at your request to cancel 30 bids. It does sound like a lot. That is a lot of work for them to go in and cancel all of those bids. I suspect that was as much of the issue as the money itself. Not that they are blameless and certainly they should have been much more accomodating. But they were probably working with a skeleton crew and may have panicked just a bit.
With a requst to step down the 8 or 9 bids to a losing level rather than an outright cancelling might have made it easier for all concerned. Then the rest of your bids would probably have been incredible bargains that we would have wanted to swoop them up and thank you in the process.
Ksteeler did not say you were wrong just that there is a sharing of this problem and that you had to take some (not all, not most but SOME of the heat). But if they were such bargains anyway, you could have easily taken advantage of the 6 months to pay policy at Heritage and flipped the coins. In some cases, even winning the coins and then asking them to re-auction them quickly might have also helped as well for just a few of the coins.
ADDED: Agreed that what Heritage should have done is temprarily lowered Big Dave's credit limit to about $1000 to $2000 maximum so hat he is not "out" as a customer but more restricted until Big Dave calls up and says that he is now able to resume normal bidding activities. The credit application part seems to be an overreaction since Big Dave's payment record had never been an issue.
But heck, who's perfect? I was even 8 months late because somehow my payments on a specific lot got fouled up because I kept giving the credit card payment info to two different people who had alreaduy left Heritage (one of them being Simonetti!)
I always tell clients to prioritize their spending. Ie., what bills must you pay every month? Once those are covered, you have some money for discretionary spending. I practice what I preach; I've passed on the finest BN type Draped Bust 1/2 Cent that's probably out there because I could not afford it at the time.
Lastly, FWIW, re the material I collect, I don't think there's value to be had out there are the current prices.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I think Paul Minshull/Heritage had an appropriate and measured response to this situation. When you see it from their perspective and the perspective of the potential other bidders and consigners, it is quite eye-opening. As a very frequent underbidder, I can only imagine the nightmare of waking up and seeing that I am now the high bidder on auctions that I had previously been an underbidder and since moved on. That would be extremely unfair and could put me in financial durress.
BIGDAVE, I know that you want this to end. One way to make this thread end would be to change the title. Until then, I suspect that people are going to continue to post and side with Heritage.
Since it is a US Coin forum.
<< <i>As a very frequent underbidder, I can only imagine the nightmare of waking up and seeing that I am now the high bidder on auctions that I had previously been an underbidder and since moved on. That would be extremely unfair and could put me in financial durress. >>
Hey!! With any bid in any auction you should be prepared for the possibilty that it might be the winning bid. You shouldn't be moving on until its over. In Dave's case he apparently felt that he wasn't going to win all or most of them anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are the current high bidder on Auction #353, Lot #734:
Proof Mercury Dimes: 1939 10C PR63 Full Bands ANACS. Boldly defined, with ...
Your secret maximum bid was in the amount of: $45.00 ($51.75 with BP)
After processing all the open bids for this lot, the current bid price is $1.00 ($7.00 with BP)
all 30 lots i was high bidder at $1..... thats it $1.
i was trying to do the right thing and cancel in advance so no one would have to bid for nothing.
fine i should have just got outbid like always .. i was wrong for trying to do the right thing..
i bid on everything that had no Bids
the bullet auction is where they put the junk
my Personal collection is 100 % Pcgs
my PCGS collection
i bid on everything that had no Bids
the bullet auction is where they put the junk
my Personal collection is 100 % Pcgs
Link wont work
look at bigdaves in the registry
now that's quite arrogant bordering on obnoxious - what did Heritage do wrong? I'm sorry I disagree as many others here do too. BidDave made a boo boo and I be;lieve deep down he knows what went wrong. This nonsense about Heritage is off totally - the few who have knocked them are probably on there BLACK list already for similar tactics or worse.
I'm not saying Heritage is above error - heck have you never heard of a BMW breaking down or a room at the Ritz that had defective shower handle?? The title to this thread is way off and totally unjustified.
That said I still wish you luck as I did way back in the beginning when we did not even know all the details
Marc
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Superior Galleries
<< <i>Heritage's pulling a customer out of its data base is not isolated to Big Dave. This is a tactic that it appears Heritage has repeatedly used to threaten customers who have legitimate disputes. I find this practice insulting. .......to retaliate as they do by blacklisting former good customers is nothing less than pure arrogance which in my opinion is inexcuseable. The persons who are ultimately hurt are the consignors. Big Dave will likely not be bidding at another Heritage Auction in his life. >>
I've been dealing w/Heritage for years, and Steve Ivy before that. It is now a big business, not your neighborhood coin store. The have tons of employees on the top two floors of a hi-rise building (a lot of overhead to support), company policies, etc.
I had a minor dispute when I "returned' a coin bought on a Heritage "internet only" auction. Actually, I never even took possession of it as I went to their office and one look told me it was not a PF65 Morgan! I was informed that I would have to pay a 10% restocking fee.
I told 'em to take a hike and stuff it. I later received a phone call from one of their VPs, who agreed to waive the charge in this one case (after I had him look at the POS and mentioned that it had apparently been returned twice before).
After he lectured me on the need to conform to their policies, etc., I said "fair enough, I'll never bid on one of your acutions again." That was about 4 years ago and, while I still do business w/Heritage, I've never bid on any of their auctions since then. Never have, never will!
very unprofessional.
And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive.
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend!
The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em!
<< <i>
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend! The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em! >>
Bidders do not exist without consignors. You have to take care of number 1 first. Don't get me wrong here, Heritage is obligated to act professionally with all bidders and provide excellent service in completing the transaction. But don't kid yourself, this servicing of the high bidder is only an extention of service their customer, the consignor. Taking care of bidders is one of an auction houses sales tools. Obviously having a reputation for professional transactions is a plus, but I can assure you that a reputation of allowing bidders to easily cancel bids with no repercusion would quickly put an auction house in jeopardy.
<< <i>I joined Superior Galleries >>
Just remember the old saying, "there are no secrets within the Numismatic Community."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>And.....The customer is not always right, and in an auction you are not the customer anyway. The customer is the consignor and that is who Heritage must protect for their business to thrive. >>
I beg to differ, my roubust friend! The bidder is a customer too, and they clearly cannot survive without 'em! >>
Bidders do not exist without consignors. You have to take care of number 1 first. >>
Ask yourself a "Willie Sutton" and go where the money is.
Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers.
How absurb is the above statement? Come on now MBT? The "juice" is paid for by the SELLER. Period. Anyone who says different hasn't thought this one out very carefully. The seller pays all comissions and fees. The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue.
But it is also true that you need bidders, winners and underbidders.
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Big Dave,
Moving from Heritage to Superior is no big move imo. I guess the memory of TAGZ and all their tactics have faded from memory. Don't expect any better treatment there. These are the same guys that have been "alleged" to ignore customers at coin shows if they don't appear to be big spending fish. I'd have stuck with HNAI. Did you really bid $1 on a bunch of lots? I always wondered who does this and why?
roadrunner
<< <i>Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers. >>
Can't agree. In one way or another, the seller is paying the juice.
Let's say I, the buyer, am willing to pay $100 for a coin. With a 15% buyer fee and NO seller fee, I can enter a bid of about $85 and the total would come to about $100 with the juice. The seller gets the $85 I bid.
Let's now make it where the seller pays the juice. As a bidder, I still bid $100 -- I don't care how the fees are handled as long as I pay $100 either way -- but now the auctioneers take their 15% "pound of flesh" from the seller, so that $100 becomes $85.
Either way, the buyer pays about $100, the seller receives about $85 and the auctioneer takes about $15. That would also be true where buyers and sellers split the fees. In the end, it's much ado about nothing unless bidders don't take their juice into account when bidding. In which case, they overpaid.
IMO, the principal customers in a Heritage (or any) auction are the bidders/buyers. >>
"Heritage's auction revenue primarliy comes from the "juce" paid by bidders, not seller commissions.
How absurb is the above statement? Come on now MBT? The "juice" is paid for by the SELLER. Period. Anyone who says different hasn't thought this one out very carefully. The seller pays all comissions and fees. The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue. "
I stand by my statement--every auction invoice I have sez "bider's fee" or the like, and it's an add-on to the buyer's payment. Granted, you can make a case that it actually comes out of the seller's hide, but the point is that the buyer/bidder IS a revenue generating customer of Heritage.
<< <i>The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue. >>
HUH??! Then why is there a BP added on to the Buyers bid ???
It's not a question of making a case where the BP fee gets paid from.
It comes from the seller......period. Anyone that bids is of course a potential generator of income....except those bidding 10-50% of a coin's value (50% of the bidders). Those have no impact on revenue generation unless they at some point actually force a lot higher.
Heritage may have X thousands of "bidders" but how many actually force bids higher at market levels?? Bidding $300 on a $1000 lot on a lot does not generate revenue. That just wastes time.
I've been in this hobby for 30 years attending auctions and have never yet paid a fee over and above what a coin is worth....let along 15%. The auction houses came up with this scheme in the late 1980's to generate more revenue because 10-15% of the take was not enough money. Now they get closer to 20% of the take. They could have called it seller's fee #2 but instead called it a 'BP." If you don't understand this basic concept you ought to steer clear of auctions. This is semantics.
BP + SP = total fees paid by seller to the house.
Sure there's a BP on your invoice but it didn't come out of your pocket unless you don't know how to back off your bids by 15% in an auction setting. The question is not what they call it, but WHO PAYS IT.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>The only fee the buyers pay is $15 for a catalog and expenses to go to the auction venue. >>
HUH??! Then why is there a BP added on to the Buyers bid ??? >>
The point is that in one way or another, the seller is paying for it (even if indirectly). If you shift the 15% fee to the buyer, the buyer bids about 15% less, and the net effect to the seller -- the amount they receive from the auctioneer -- should be no different than if the seller paid all the fees directly.
However, reality is not that.
If it is all the same, why do the auction companies title it "Buyer's premium"? It is to get seller's coming to them.
The thing that makes the difference is that people are not always logical in an auction. There is such a thing called "auction fever" and most of you know that.
Now, for someone in the business for 30 years and having done this, you can bet you know your coins, the market, and are more rational.
However, there are MANY people who get caught up in the auction fever.
If the coin is worth $100 and there is 15% BP, then the coin is worth an $85 bid, right? Using your reasoning (which is sound).
So, $85bid+$15 bp=$100 coin.
However, the auction houses show the bid (and then in smaller numbers and slightly separated, the bp and full amount, right?).
So, there are more than likely many people who end up getting caught up in the bidding and may not want to lose the coin by a few dollar, so they may bid $90, $95, even $100. They still pay the bp.
So, your reasoning is right if everyone plays smart...but not everyone does. To assume so is wrong and contrary to what anyone having been in auctions and watching things go for too much $$$ can tell you.
So, imho, I believe the bidder pays the fees. The fee gets paid one way or another, the auction house makes the money.
In the end, without the consignor, there is no auction and no fees, and by the same token, without the bidders, there is no auction and no fees. Both are equal customers. To ignore that is ludicrous.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Heritage is a broker , therefor BOTH the buyer AND seller are customers. It best to provide customer service and I've stated before that it appears some people at Heritage did not perform in an acceptable business manner but if anyone believes that the "customer is always right" Please, PLEASE open a business so I can come by and screw you over.
So, why have the auction terms changed in the past 10 years or so from seller's to buyer's fees? The answer probably has to do with improving the auction house's strength in negotiating with consignors. In the past, seller's fees of anywhere from 5% to 25% were common, depending on size, value and content of the consignment, along with the ability of the consignor himself to negotiate a deal one on one. Now, the auction house offers much less flexibility: the buyer's commission is fixed at 15% for most lots, and of course the house doesn't have to negotiate at all with buyers.
Moreover, some customers may even be fooled into thinking they are getting a great deal when the auction house tells them they are being charged only 5% to 10%. Of course, this is on top of the 15% already being charged to buyers. But, the "zero commission" come- on seems to have some appeal with potential consignors -- even though it's usually a sham.