<< <i>So, why have the auction terms changed in the past 10 years or so from seller's to buyer's fees? The answer probably has to do with improving the auction house's strength in negotiating with consignors. In the past, seller's fees of anywhere from 5% to 25% were common, depending on size, value and content of the consignment, along with the ability of the consignor himself to negotiate a deal one on one. Now, the auction house offers much less flexibility: the buyer's commission is fixed at 15% for most lots, and of course the house doesn't have to negotiate at all with buyers.
>>
Actually, the commissions are negotiable at most auction houses. It's not unusual to get in excess fof 100% of the hammer price when selling hi-dollar coins. Happens all the time, probably more often than not!
This thread from the onset was based on a silly argument. It made sense to turn it into something productive except dumping on HNAI for being pissed about dozens of bids being retracted.
If internet buyers cannot understand the 15% buyers fee then that's a bonus to Heritage. Their auction page does clearly list what the total price is. If people are spending thousands of dollars not knowing the difference, they deserve to fork it over. Personally, I think the number of people fooled by this is VERY small. And even if someone is fooled, how long do you think they continue to be fooled? Is there another "fool" to replace them next month too once they realize they are being charged +15%?
This scheme came about over 15 years ago as a means to bump the fees higher. Once the houses raised the seller's fee from 10 to 15% they had no where else to go. They couldn't ask 20% and expect consignors to flock to them. At least not at that time. Today, they get that 20-22% total by using a "buyer's" fee. It didn't "fool" anyone 15 years ago, but maybe you're right about the newbies today getting fooled. The same poeple who buy HSN and QVC are probably paying the 15% extra. A 15% buyers premium means the seller, with a 0% consignor fee, pays a 13% commission in the end (100% divided by 115%). In this case 115% = Full value of the coin.
Hold on, another SS Republic seated half is up on HSN for only $950, let me get out my checkbook before it's too late...gotta run.....
<< <i>Sure there's a BP on your invoice but it didn't come out of your pocket unless you don't know how to back off your bids by 15% in an auction setting. The question is not what they call it, but WHO PAYS IT. >>
Great point! Agree 100%.
<< <i>Hold on, another SS Republic seated half is up on HSN for only $950, let me get out my checkbook before it's too late...gotta run..... >>
I recently got a 0% hammer consignment deal from an auction house. It means that I'll end up with 87% of the value of the coin (13% fee). Hey, but didn't I get a ZERO commission deal. Yup but at the same time...nope. Sort of like a 0% interest rate on your new car loan. Sure looks good on paper.
Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today.
Gemtone, what you said made great sense. The buyer's fee and adjustable seller's fee makes the consignment process far more confusing than just bidding. I feel like I'm in a used car dealer's office when I'm discussing rates with an auction house. The auction house can jumble the truth by dumping in several diff factors. And they make you feel like a crook for asking for anything more than a standard deal. "Have fun with your coins."
<< <i>Did you really bid $1 on a bunch of lots? I always wondered who does this and why? >>
If you look at the example he provided earlier its quite likely that he bid well over $1 on all of the lots for which he bid. Why would you ask to have your bids cancelled if you are the guaranteed low bidder? Duh!! I assume people bid $1 just to use it as a tracking service much like eBay, even tho Heritage has a separate tracking service available.
On a negotiated commission of 5% on a $85 dollar hammer price the seller pays $4.25 in commission and nets $80.75 The 15% BP of $12.75 goes to Heritage. Their take is then $17. The buyer pays $85 plus $12.75 for a total of $97.75 plus any added shipping charges.
<< <i>Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today. >>
Maybe that will change. There are more auction houses than ever before with ANR plitting off B&M and DLRC new in the game. With all the sellers trying to capitalize on the hot market, the auction houses can call the shots. However, as we've seen recently, many lots are closing below reserve, so maybe the tides are turning (or maybe it's just a breather). When the market does finally slow and prices start dropping, then the sellers will be more able to call the shots, as the auction houses will be begging for inventory. And don't forget Ebay. It's an additional source of competition that didn't exist the last time the market was soft.
<< <i>Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today. >>
Maybe that will change. There are more auction houses than ever before with ANR plitting off B&M and DLRC new in the game. With all the sellers trying to capitalize on the hot market, the auction houses can call the shots. However, as we've seen recently, many lots are closing below reserve, so maybe the tides are turning (or maybe it's just a breather). When the market does finally slow and prices start dropping, then the sellers will be more able to call the shots, as the auction houses will be begging for inventory. And don't forget Ebay. It's an additional source of competition that didn't exist the last time the market was soft. >>
I see it otherwise. In the curent "hot" market, sellers have the advantage and can negotiate w/auctioneers who are more competitive and "need" material to sell.
To accurately "assess" your coins, auction houses usually require you to send them along first before rates are discussed. They might spend days or weeks havign multiple people look at them. This places them at an advantage right from the start. While one certainly has the option of just saying forget it, send 'em back, it's not so simple. You can then spend months shipping your coins around the country trying for that last % of return. You have options for sure, but the auction house has a methodology not unlike that of a car dealership. Buyer beware....and don't give in....unless you can't help it.
Another option is to piggy back in with a major dealer and have them negotiate a better rate. I'll look into this more the next time around.
<< <i>To accurately "assess" your coins, auction houses usually require you to send them along first before rates are discussed. They might spend days or weeks havign multiple people look at them. This places them at an advantage right from the start. While one certainly has the option of just saying forget it, send 'em back, it's not so simple. You can then spend months shipping your coins around the country trying for that last % of return. You have options for sure, but the auction house has a methodology not unlike that of a car dealership. Buyer beware....and don't give in....unless you can't help it.
Another option is to piggy back in with a major dealer and have them negotiate a better rate. I'll look into this more the next time around.
<< <i>To accurately "assess" your coins, auction houses usually require you to send them along first before rates are discussed. They might spend days or weeks havign multiple people look at them. This places them at an advantage right from the start. While one certainly has the option of just saying forget it, send 'em back, it's not so simple. You can then spend months shipping your coins around the country trying for that last % of return. You have options for sure, but the auction house has a methodology not unlike that of a car dealership. >>
Just take the consignment to a major show (like Long Beach) and walk it around to the auctioneers for the best deal!
Walking a major coin consignment at a big show is not a casual thing (insurance?) The auction house is not going to accurately assess upgrade potential at the show. While they may toss out a number based on low level assumptions, that is good for them, not the seller. Their 2 graders may not be able to look at your coins properly at the show. I would be surprised if they took the time to look at dozens of coins in a show atmosphere. Seems unrealistic to me. But I could be wrong.
that's no way to treat a good customer, and I imagine they lost a nice chunk of business that BIGDAVE would generate in the future, terrible customer service.
PCGS sets under The Thomas Collections. Modern Commemoratives @ NGC under "One Coin at a Time". USMC Active 1966 thru 1970" The real War.
As a buyer I have to think that the rules set for the auction are what I must live with.
I say this and I'm not even a customer of Heritage any longer.
While trying to get an error on their part fixed someone in customer service having a really bad day decided to take it out on me. This was years ago but I still don't do business with them. I just wanted to here something like, sorry we will take care of this. All I got was a hard time.
<< <i>Walking a major coin consignment at a big show is not a casual thing (insurance?)
The auction house is not going to accurately assess upgrade potential at the show. >>
You're correct, it's a bit scary to walk around with valuable anything these days. But once you're inside the show building, consigning is a piece of cake.
All I know is that the auctioneers readily take consignments at shows, and often will compete on terms. In my experience, they don't "assess" didddly-squat other than verifying that the consigment is worthwhile for them. I've been told that coins in old holders with upgrade potential usually bring more in the original holders anyway. You simply give 'em the coins, and they give you a receipt listing the coins with commission and buy back terms noted.
Anyone who tells you it takes weeks to ANALize a consignment is probably yanking your chain if you're not talking six figures or more.
Anyone who tells you it takes weeks to ANALize a consignment is probably yanking your chain if you're not talking six figures or more. .
Yeah, exactly....what you said MBT. And this can include PQ's, upgrades, crossovers, crackouts, etc. You don't figure this out at the ANA or FUN show. The process could take 6 months if you want to squeeze every possible dollar out of your consignment. And in some cases, those higher holders might even lose you money!
For run of the mill coins with well-defined values, sure, you can do that at any show. As far as flying to a big show with a 6-figure consignment, that's the tricky part. I concur that walking the floor is no big deal. It's the coming and going that presents the risk.
I wonder how many others have crossed Heritage off their list over the years for the same reasons.
I had a transaction-gone-bad a while back which they were on the verge of not backing up their mistake, but I persevered and in the end, they more than made up for their mistake. I remain an avid supporter. If my situation broke the other way, I would not be.
As big as Heritage is and as many transactions they complete, they are bound to regularly make errors and aggravate their customers. Overall, I think that they do a great job, and the principals in the company are approachable and well-intentioned.
On a different tangent, when one cancels a large volume of bids, as happenned here, I assume that Heritage would have to take over these bids, at least at a level just higher than the underbidder of the lots for which BigDave was the high bidder. Any reason to think otherwise? After all, if they just drop the bids, it would be harmful to the consigner.
Well for one thing I guess you would have to use your gut feeling as to whether or not any of his bids would have actually been winning bids. This would be based on current market assessment for the coin as well as whether you placed a strong bid or a so so one. I would agree that if the bidder feels that he MUST retract its better to do it early and the earlier the better.
Dave- The consignor is the customer (not you). I was a consignor. There are no bidders at an auction without the consignor. They (Heritage) are working for the consignor to get the highest prices realized they can get. I was ripped off.........by a loser (bidder) who didn't perform on his bid. This will cost me close to $2000 on a single coin. I wish Heritage had blocked/cancelled/sent away the bidder who cost me dearly. You can see my comment on page 6 regarding the particulars. And in case you haven't figured it out yet........you were absolutely WRONG to ever.......ever....ever.........cancel your bids......once they were placed. The only excuse that would ever merit cancelling the bids prior to the auction........that I would agree with (because I am a nice guy).......is the death of the bidder before the auction commenced (not sure what Heritage would say). Even then.....legally it would seem the responsibility of the estate of the deceased. If you pull the same thing with Superior....I would hope that the same scenario would occur (banishment).
That is harsh, and contradicting.... You had a very bad (in your eyes) experience (and, I will agree it was not a good experience from you post) and this issue is close to home for you
BUT, you say that a bidder screwed you over and that you wish their bids had been cancelled. THEN, you state that Dave should not have cancelled his bids no matter what. Which is it? Should Dave have cancelled or not? What if the choice was to NOT pay and take the "after the auction" cancellation?
His bidding and the cancellation were done before the end.....before any bids got run up too high and he ran off others. I would think after the experience you posted, that you would appreciate him cancelling.
Sorry, but I just don't understand your post....you seem to want it both ways.
Interesting. There are really several topics mixed together on this thread. Cancellling bids, how auctions work, and how a company treats its customers. I really have no problem with Heritage enforcing its rules regarding cancelling of bids but their practice of blackballing long term customers and removing them from their data base as they did to Big Dave is abhorable.
Hmmm... and I just opened a Heritage Auctions account and paid for my first win today. Guess I better not spread myself too thin, or they might dump me if an emergency comes up, too.
Wow, this was an interesting one to read from scratch.
I've never had a problem with Heritage. The one time I bought a coin from them that was highly overgraded (in my opinion) they took it back. I'm happy to have access to the variety of coins they auction since I don't live near a major coin shop.
I have only once backed out of a purchase. I bought a coin from a board member the day before a hurricane sent water through 2 levels of my house. I told the seller that I needed to cancel the purchase, the reason, and he was a class act about it. In general, though, I agree with auction houses not wanting to cancel a bid and instead trying to work a payment plan for the buyer.
It is a shame though, that we can't objectively discuss things without it breaking down into a shouting match.
Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
<< <i>Dave- The consignor is the customer (not you). I was a consignor. There are no bidders at an auction without the consignor. They (Heritage) are working for the consignor to get the highest prices realized they can get. >>
That is where everyone gets confused thinking the consignor is the customer .... The consignor is the Seller .
The customer is the Buyer.
Heritage is a middle man, they own coins and (sell) for Them ,and on behalf of the consignor (seller)
From the Dictionary
Customer
cus·tom·er [ kústəmər ] (plural cus·tom·ers)
noun
1. buyer: a person or company who buys goods or services
I don't know how many auction houses in ANY field would want a person to bid again if they pulled that many bids.
Or coin dealers, not just auctions. Try that one in a real estate, commodities, stock purchase or any other business and see what happens. Heritage went the extra mile by even considering doing business with this guy and all they required was an up to date credit app?
Laura, imagine if that was a dealer who did that ( pulled all those bids). Goodnight irene.
I dont understand a some of you...i still have all the outbid emails it heritage wants to dispute me
1.There was a total of 60 bids.
2. I was ALREADY OUTBID on 38 auctions. 19 on the exclusive internet and 9 on the Bullet and 10 on the sig.
3. That means i was high bidder on 22 auctions at the time they canceled. NOT 60
4. The highest bid was $1 , no one else bid on these coins at the time i canceled
Here is the last current status email i got
Current Bid Status for David W (Disable These Notices, Change My E-Mail Profile) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004 August Pittsburgh, PA Bullet Sale - #353 Lot No. Description Your Bid Current Bid Next Bid Auction Ends 301 Lincoln Cents 1934 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Vibrant luster and orange ... $80.00 $88.00 $89.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 304 Lincoln Cents 1935 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Pink-orange colored with heavy die ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 308 Lincoln Cents 1937-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. ex: Benson. Lovingly preserved ... $40.00 $41.00 $42.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 310 Lincoln Cents 1939-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Showing above average eye appeal ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 318 Lincoln Cents 1944-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. This Superb brilliant orange Gem ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 326 Lincoln Cents 1950-S 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Orange with green undertones ... $120.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 329 Lincoln Cents 1951-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. A true Superb Gem with blazing ... $80.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 331 Lincoln Cents 1953-S 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Well preserved with blazing red ... $60.00 $205.00 $210.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 385 Proof Lincoln Cents 1911 1C --Cleaned--ANACS. Proof, Net PR55. Glossy greenish-... $30.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 486 Liberty Nickels 1884 5C --Environmental Damage--ANACS. Unc Details, Net MS60.... $30.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 590 Jefferson Nickels 1945-D 5C MS67 PCGS. Pale greenish-gray and light gold ... $35.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 701 Mercury Dimes 1937 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Brilliant and well struck. ... $60.00 $61.00 $62.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 705 Mercury Dimes 1937-S 10C MS67 PCGS. A highly lustrous Gem example. Well ... $60.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 707 Mercury Dimes 1938 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Light opaque toning covers ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 713 Mercury Dimes 1941-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Small S mintmark. A ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 721 Mercury Dimes 1944-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Large S mintmark. A ... $120.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 727 Mercury Dimes 1945-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Knob S mintmark. Booming ... $180.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 750 Roosevelt Dimes 1947 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Sea-green, violet, and ... $75.00 $76.00 $77.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 752 Roosevelt Dimes 1951-D 10C MS67 PCGS. A richly toned Roosevelt Dime with ... $55.00 $105.00 $110.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 791 Proof Seated Quarters 1868 25C --Cleaned--ANACS. Net PR60. A needle-sharp but ... $75.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 901 Washington Quarters 1934 25C Medium Motto MS66 PCGS. Untoned and extremely ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 906 Washington Quarters 1936 25C MS66 PCGS. Well struck and lightly toned, with ... $90.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 913 Washington Quarters 1939 25C MS67 PCGS. Lustrous surfaces are lightly toned ... $180.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 916 Washington Quarters 1940-D 25C MS66 PCGS. Lightly enveloped in pastel colors ... $190.00 $195.00 $200.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 922 Washington Quarters 1943-S 25C MS66 PCGS. Just a hint of gold color is ... $70.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1169 Franklin Half Dollars 1949-S 50C MS64 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Well struck and ... $120.00 $175.00 $180.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1170 Franklin Half Dollars 1949-S 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Dappled and streaky ... $175.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1171 Franklin Half Dollars 1950 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Booming luster and a ... $125.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1173 Franklin Half Dollars 1950-D 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Sharply struck and ... $210.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1175 Franklin Half Dollars 1951 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Gorgeous original ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM 1188 Franklin Half Dollars 1958 50C MS66 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Deep cobalt-blue, ... $85.00 $86.00 $87.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
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Contact Us bid@heritagecoins.com Heritage Numismatic Auctions, Inc. 3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor Dallas, Texas USA 75219-3941 1-800-US-COINS http://www.heritagecoins.com
It is interesting to see how many of the defenders of Heritage got the free book. At least someone at Heritage is doing something right in their PR department - maybe they ought to enlighten the rest of the company how to maintain good customer relations.
BigDave- It is you that are very very confused. By your own definition....I (the consignor) am a customer of Heritage (and an important one). I sold approx. $100k of coins at auction that I consigned. They made 15% from the buyers fee (or approx. $15k) and a sellers fee from the coins I consigned. How much would they have made from you (you also would be considered a customer...if you actually followed thru on a bid)??
Back to the point:
Your definition of a customer is: a person or company who buys goods or services
I signed a legal contract for their services. Much like you would sign a contract for any professional service (legal, cpa, engineering, or financial, etc). I hired them for the services of marketing and selling my coins at auction.....therefore I am a customer/client of theirs. I contracted/hired them to get me the best possible price for my coins at auction.
You on the other hand breached your contract.........and have acted like it is no "big deal"......if "little dave".....goes back on his word. It is amazing you have such a difficult time admitting your mistake and dealing with the consequences like a man. No wait....you flip flopped on your bids....well.......you know what Arnold S. would say?? Too hard to keep politics out of it.
Dave, the thing you are forgetting here is this, you don't have to be high bidder to affect the final price by pulling your bids. When you pull a bid, all the bids higher than yours drop down to fill the gap left by your pulled bid. The auction could finish MUCH lower without your bid there to shore it up. Even forgetting about your underbids, though, 22 bids is a lot to pull at one time. I don't think Heritage should have banned you, but I do think that you could have negotiated credit terms or, like someone else said, relisted the items in the hopes that they would turn a profit before your balance came due.
Comments
<< <i>So, why have the auction terms changed in the past 10 years or so from seller's to buyer's fees? The answer probably has to do with improving the auction house's strength in negotiating with consignors. In the past, seller's fees of anywhere from 5% to 25% were common, depending on size, value and content of the consignment, along with the ability of the consignor himself to negotiate a deal one on one. Now, the auction house offers much less flexibility: the buyer's commission is fixed at 15% for most lots, and of course the house doesn't have to negotiate at all with buyers.
>>
Actually, the commissions are negotiable at most auction houses. It's not unusual to get in excess fof 100% of the hammer price when selling hi-dollar coins. Happens all the time, probably more often than not!
for being pissed about dozens of bids being retracted.
If internet buyers cannot understand the 15% buyers fee then that's a bonus to Heritage. Their auction page does clearly list what the total price is. If people are spending thousands of dollars not knowing the difference, they deserve to fork it over. Personally, I think the number of people fooled by this is VERY small. And even if someone is fooled, how long do you think they continue to be fooled? Is there another "fool" to replace them next month too once they realize they are being charged +15%?
This scheme came about over 15 years ago as a means to bump the fees higher. Once the houses raised the seller's fee from 10 to 15% they had no where else to go. They couldn't ask 20% and expect consignors to flock to them. At least not at that time. Today, they get that 20-22% total by using a "buyer's" fee. It didn't "fool" anyone 15 years ago, but maybe you're right about the newbies today getting fooled. The same poeple who buy HSN and QVC are probably paying the 15% extra. A 15% buyers premium means the seller, with a 0% consignor fee, pays a 13% commission in the end
(100% divided by 115%). In this case 115% = Full value of the coin.
Hold on, another SS Republic seated half is up on HSN for only $950, let me get out my checkbook before it's too late...gotta run.....
roadrunner
<< <i>Sure there's a BP on your invoice but it didn't come out of your pocket unless you don't know how to back off your bids by 15% in an auction setting. The question is not what they call it, but WHO PAYS IT. >>
Great point! Agree 100%.
<< <i>Hold on, another SS Republic seated half is up on HSN for only $950, let me get out my checkbook before it's too late...gotta run..... >>
That's classic!
jom
(13% fee). Hey, but didn't I get a ZERO commission deal. Yup but at the same time...nope. Sort of like a 0% interest rate on your new car loan. Sure looks good on paper.
Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today.
Gemtone, what you said made great sense. The buyer's fee and adjustable seller's fee makes the consignment process far more confusing than just bidding. I feel like I'm in a used car dealer's office when I'm discussing rates with an auction house. The auction house can jumble the truth by dumping in several diff factors. And they make you feel like a crook for asking for anything more than a standard deal. "Have fun with your coins."
roadrunner
<< <i>Did you really bid $1 on a bunch of lots? I always wondered who does this and why? >>
If you look at the example he provided earlier its quite likely that he bid well over $1 on all of the lots for which he bid. Why would you ask to have your bids cancelled if you are the guaranteed low bidder? Duh!! I assume people bid $1 just to use it as a tracking service much like eBay, even tho Heritage has a separate tracking service available.
<< <i>Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today. >>
Maybe that will change. There are more auction houses than ever before with ANR plitting off B&M and DLRC new in the game. With all the sellers trying to capitalize on the hot market, the auction houses can call the shots. However, as we've seen recently, many lots are closing below reserve, so maybe the tides are turning (or maybe it's just a breather). When the market does finally slow and prices start dropping, then the sellers will be more able to call the shots, as the auction houses will be begging for inventory. And don't forget Ebay. It's an additional source of competition that didn't exist the last time the market was soft.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe next time around I'll negotiate a better deal. In the old days of B&M I could routinely negotiate down to 11-13% net commission for much smaller consignments. It's tougher today. >>
Maybe that will change. There are more auction houses than ever before with ANR plitting off B&M and DLRC new in the game. With all the sellers trying to capitalize on the hot market, the auction houses can call the shots. However, as we've seen recently, many lots are closing below reserve, so maybe the tides are turning (or maybe it's just a breather). When the market does finally slow and prices start dropping, then the sellers will be more able to call the shots, as the auction houses will be begging for inventory. And don't forget Ebay. It's an additional source of competition that didn't exist the last time the market was soft. >>
I see it otherwise. In the curent "hot" market, sellers have the advantage and can negotiate w/auctioneers who are more competitive and "need" material to sell.
Another option is to piggy back in with a major dealer and have them negotiate a better rate. I'll look into this more the next time around.
roadrunner
<< <i>To accurately "assess" your coins, auction houses usually require you to send them along first before rates are discussed. They might spend days or weeks havign multiple people look at them. This places them at an advantage right from the start. While one certainly has the option of just saying forget it, send 'em back, it's not so simple. You can then spend months shipping your coins around the country trying for that last % of return. You have options for sure, but the auction house has a methodology not unlike that of a car dealership. Buyer beware....and don't give in....unless you can't help it.
Another option is to piggy back in with a major dealer and have them negotiate a better rate. I'll look into this more the next time around.
roadrunner >>
Oops, hit the wrong button. See below!
<< <i>To accurately "assess" your coins, auction houses usually require you to send them along first before rates are discussed. They might spend days or weeks havign multiple people look at them. This places them at an advantage right from the start. While one certainly has the option of just saying forget it, send 'em back, it's not so simple. You can then spend months shipping your coins around the country trying for that last % of return. You have options for sure, but the auction house has a methodology not unlike that of a car dealership. >>
Just take the consignment to a major show (like Long Beach) and walk it around to the auctioneers for the best deal!
roadrunner
I say this and I'm not even a customer of Heritage any longer.
While trying to get an error on their part fixed someone in customer service having a really bad day decided to take it out on me. This was years ago but I still don't do business with them.
I just wanted to here something like, sorry we will take care of this. All I got was a hard time.
As a customer I just want to be treated as such.
<< <i>Walking a major coin consignment at a big show is not a casual thing (insurance?)
The auction house is not going to accurately assess upgrade potential at the show.
>>
You're correct, it's a bit scary to walk around with valuable anything these days. But once you're inside the show building, consigning is a piece of cake.
All I know is that the auctioneers readily take consignments at shows, and often will compete on terms. In my experience, they don't "assess" didddly-squat other than verifying that the consigment is worthwhile for them. I've been told that coins in old holders with upgrade potential usually bring more in the original holders anyway. You simply give 'em the coins, and they give you a receipt listing the coins with commission and buy back terms noted.
Anyone who tells you it takes weeks to ANALize a consignment is probably yanking your chain if you're not talking six figures or more.
Better yet, put it on a credit card and pay next month.
What's the big deal?
-KHayse
Yeah, exactly....what you said MBT. And this can include PQ's, upgrades, crossovers, crackouts, etc. You don't figure this out at the ANA or FUN show. The process could take 6 months if you want to squeeze every possible dollar out of your consignment. And in some cases, those higher holders might even lose you money!
For run of the mill coins with well-defined values, sure, you can do that at any show. As far as flying to a big show with a 6-figure consignment, that's the tricky part. I concur that walking the floor is no big deal. It's the coming and going that presents the risk.
roadrunner
I had a transaction-gone-bad a while back which they were on the verge of not backing up their mistake, but I persevered and in the end, they more than made up for their mistake. I remain an avid supporter. If my situation broke the other way, I would not be.
As big as Heritage is and as many transactions they complete, they are bound to regularly make errors and aggravate their customers. Overall, I think that they do a great job, and the principals in the company are approachable and well-intentioned.
On a different tangent, when one cancels a large volume of bids, as happenned here, I assume that Heritage would have to take over these bids, at least at a level just higher than the underbidder of the lots for which BigDave was the high bidder. Any reason to think otherwise? After all, if they just drop the bids, it would be harmful to the consigner.
No disrespect intended, just the facts.
That is harsh, and contradicting....
You had a very bad (in your eyes) experience (and, I will agree it was not a good experience from you post) and this issue is close to home for you
BUT, you say that a bidder screwed you over and that you wish their bids had been cancelled. THEN, you state that Dave should not have cancelled his bids no matter what.
Which is it? Should Dave have cancelled or not? What if the choice was to NOT pay and take the "after the auction" cancellation?
His bidding and the cancellation were done before the end.....before any bids got run up too high and he ran off others. I would think after the experience you posted, that you would appreciate him cancelling.
Sorry, but I just don't understand your post....you seem to want it both ways.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
(Perhaps they ought to send one to BigDave along with a well deserved apology.) Free Book
And Dave? The customer is not always right. Not even close.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Camelot
I've never had a problem with Heritage. The one time I bought a coin from them that
was highly overgraded (in my opinion) they took it back. I'm happy to have access to
the variety of coins they auction since I don't live near a major coin shop.
I have only once backed out of a purchase. I bought a coin from a board member the
day before a hurricane sent water through 2 levels of my house. I told the seller that
I needed to cancel the purchase, the reason, and he was a class act about it. In general,
though, I agree with auction houses not wanting to cancel a bid and instead trying to
work a payment plan for the buyer.
It is a shame though, that we can't objectively discuss things without it breaking down into
a shouting match.
<< <i>Dave- The consignor is the customer (not you). I was a consignor. There are no bidders at an auction without the consignor. They (Heritage) are working for the consignor to get the highest prices realized they can get. >>
That is where everyone gets confused thinking the consignor is the customer .... The consignor is the Seller .
The customer is the Buyer.
Heritage is a middle man, they own coins and (sell) for Them ,and on behalf of the consignor (seller)
From the Dictionary
Customer
cus·tom·er [ kústəmər ] (plural cus·tom·ers)
noun
1. buyer: a person or company who buys goods or services
consignor
con·sign·or [ kən snər ] (plural con·sign·ors) or con·sign·er [ kən snər ] (plural con·sign·ers)
noun
deliverer of goods: a person or organization that delivers goods
Consignor = Supplier
Or coin dealers, not just auctions. Try that one in a real estate, commodities, stock purchase or any other business and see what happens. Heritage went the extra mile by even considering doing business with this guy and all they required was an up to date credit app?
Laura, imagine if that was a dealer who did that ( pulled all those bids). Goodnight irene.
I wonder if Superior knows about this.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
NOT.
Sorry Dave, a bid is an obligation. Don't bid unless you can fulfill the obligation.
My World Coin Type Set
1.There was a total of 60 bids.
2. I was ALREADY OUTBID on 38 auctions. 19 on the exclusive internet and 9 on the Bullet and 10 on the sig.
3. That means i was high bidder on 22 auctions at the time they canceled. NOT 60
4. The highest bid was $1 , no one else bid on these coins at the time i canceled
Here is the last current status email i got
Current Bid Status for David W
(Disable These Notices, Change My E-Mail Profile)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004 August Pittsburgh, PA Bullet Sale - #353
Lot No. Description Your Bid Current Bid Next Bid Auction Ends
301 Lincoln Cents
1934 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Vibrant luster and orange ... $80.00 $88.00 $89.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
304 Lincoln Cents
1935 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Pink-orange colored with heavy die ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
308 Lincoln Cents
1937-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. ex: Benson. Lovingly preserved ... $40.00 $41.00 $42.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
310 Lincoln Cents
1939-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Showing above average eye appeal ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
318 Lincoln Cents
1944-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. This Superb brilliant orange Gem ... $40.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
326 Lincoln Cents
1950-S 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Orange with green undertones ... $120.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
329 Lincoln Cents
1951-D 1C MS67 Red PCGS. A true Superb Gem with blazing ... $80.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
331 Lincoln Cents
1953-S 1C MS67 Red PCGS. Well preserved with blazing red ... $60.00 $205.00 $210.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
385 Proof Lincoln Cents
1911 1C --Cleaned--ANACS. Proof, Net PR55. Glossy greenish-... $30.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
486 Liberty Nickels
1884 5C --Environmental Damage--ANACS. Unc Details, Net MS60.... $30.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
590 Jefferson Nickels
1945-D 5C MS67 PCGS. Pale greenish-gray and light gold ... $35.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
701 Mercury Dimes
1937 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Brilliant and well struck. ... $60.00 $61.00 $62.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
705 Mercury Dimes
1937-S 10C MS67 PCGS. A highly lustrous Gem example. Well ... $60.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
707 Mercury Dimes
1938 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Light opaque toning covers ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
713 Mercury Dimes
1941-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Small S mintmark. A ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
721 Mercury Dimes
1944-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Large S mintmark. A ... $120.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
727 Mercury Dimes
1945-S 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Knob S mintmark. Booming ... $180.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
750 Roosevelt Dimes
1947 10C MS67 Full Bands PCGS. Sea-green, violet, and ... $75.00 $76.00 $77.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
752 Roosevelt Dimes
1951-D 10C MS67 PCGS. A richly toned Roosevelt Dime with ... $55.00 $105.00 $110.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
791 Proof Seated Quarters
1868 25C --Cleaned--ANACS. Net PR60. A needle-sharp but ... $75.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
901 Washington Quarters
1934 25C Medium Motto MS66 PCGS. Untoned and extremely ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
906 Washington Quarters
1936 25C MS66 PCGS. Well struck and lightly toned, with ... $90.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
913 Washington Quarters
1939 25C MS67 PCGS. Lustrous surfaces are lightly toned ... $180.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
916 Washington Quarters
1940-D 25C MS66 PCGS. Lightly enveloped in pastel colors ... $190.00 $195.00 $200.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
922 Washington Quarters
1943-S 25C MS66 PCGS. Just a hint of gold color is ... $70.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1169 Franklin Half Dollars
1949-S 50C MS64 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Well struck and ... $120.00 $175.00 $180.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1170 Franklin Half Dollars
1949-S 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Dappled and streaky ... $175.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1171 Franklin Half Dollars
1950 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Booming luster and a ... $125.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1173 Franklin Half Dollars
1950-D 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Sharply struck and ... $210.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1175 Franklin Half Dollars
1951 50C MS65 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Gorgeous original ... $100.00 $1.00 $2.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
1188 Franklin Half Dollars
1958 50C MS66 Full Bell Lines PCGS. Deep cobalt-blue, ... $85.00 $86.00 $87.00 Aug 23 2004 10:00PM
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Contact Us
bid@heritagecoins.com
Heritage Numismatic Auctions, Inc.
3500 Maple Avenue, 17th Floor
Dallas, Texas USA 75219-3941
1-800-US-COINS
http://www.heritagecoins.com
Free Book
Back to the point:
Your definition of a customer is: a person or company who buys goods or services
I signed a legal contract for their services. Much like you would sign a contract for any professional service (legal, cpa, engineering, or financial, etc). I hired them for the services of marketing and selling my coins at auction.....therefore I am a customer/client of theirs. I contracted/hired them to get me the best possible price for my coins at auction.
You on the other hand breached your contract.........and have acted like it is no "big deal"......if "little dave".....goes back on his word. It is amazing you have such a difficult time admitting your mistake and dealing with the consequences like a man. No wait....you flip flopped on your bids....well.......you know what Arnold S. would say?? Too hard to keep politics out of it.