>>Let's not confuse the right to free speach with the privilege to post on these boards. PCGS is a business. They are here to make money. They >>provide us with this forum so that we with a common interest in buying and selling their product can assemble. As long as that assembly is in >>their best interest, it will continue. Once you cross the line and begin to hurt their bottom line, your PRIVILEGE to post here will be revoked.
Even with all the bashing, the boards have undoubtedly increased the purchasing of the PCGS product and I believe a very strong argument can be made that some of the bashing will have positive effects on both us the customer and PCGS's quality. Think if no one was ever allowed to post the fingerprint issue. Or that continued threads on this issue were squashed?
I am afraid that what we are going to see is people getting kicked off for not saying what PCGS wants to hear. Then we will get those same members registering under different email addresses and posting even worse garbage, this happens on the Yahoo boards. IMO, its not a smart business decision to censor the boards completely. If PCGS has no problems then what is there to worry about? I hope that intelligent people can make there own informed decision about what to believe from a post or use free will and ignore the post and not just drink the koolaid.
There are a few...just a few...board members that just seem to be here to bag on everything and everybody. Their complaints and criticisms are usually mean-spirited and seldom constructive. And their comments often range from simply incorrect to pure BS. These members waste your time and ours.
I wholewheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately the board has grown to a size where there are enough of these people around -- and enough legitimate posters around that take the bait -- that it's become a real problem.
I would hope that any censoring focuses on ALL such activity, regardless of the target. Not just the anti-PCGS activity.
I would rather have a board with some restrictions than no forum at all. This board is provided as a free service and is part of PCGS' overall marketing plan. I tune in to learn and discuss. Since I haven't bashed the company or members in the past, this will not be a change for me. I don't think constructive criticism is what they all looking to stop.
When I walk into a restaurant, and the new sign says "no smoking" I have one of two choices since it's their restaurant. Since I don't smoke the rule won't affect me. I'm there for the food, not the smoke.
Joe
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
<< <i>I am afraid that what we are going to see is people getting kicked off for not saying what PCGS wants to hear. >>
I'm not afraid of that happening at all. My gut feeling is that PCGS will use this right of censor with responsibility and only in extreme cases. If this turns out not to be the case, then I have the right to go elsewhere.
Don't see this posted on the registry forum - does this apply to all forums??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
This site belongs to Homerun and he can do what he wants to do. I have PCGS coins in my collection and I have NGC coins in my collection. I am sure I will continue to purchase both. In fact I just picked up a package from PCGS today! Also the service was much faster than I had expected. Their customer service was also very friendly and helpful. I do wonder if Homerun is sincerely interested in fixing the problems and perceptions at CU and PCGS or just hiding his dirty little secrets under the rug? But it is his site!!!
Banned for Life from The Evil Empire™! Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars. Monty...
<< <i>It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support >>
I have seen it mentioned by more than one person in this thread that PCGS sells a product. Since when did PCGS offer a product? I could have sworn that our beloved coins were the product and that PCGS offered a service. Am I wrong here? If PCGS is selling a product, and dealers are selling and supporting that product, than it what exactly is this product? A slab? I don't know about the rest of you, but I collect coins, not slabs. When a slab has become more important that the product within, I think its time to look a bit more closely at what PCGS is doing to promote the hobby.
The NumisAddict - Resources for people passionate about coin collecting!
Yeah, yeah. This is a service provided by PCGS. They have the "right" to run it however they want to. It is not a "right" but a "privilege," etc.
I submit, though, that this service is a marketing tool. And an exceptional, admireable and imaginative one, at that. It's been up for a few years now, during most of which I've been an interested participant.
Throughout that time, the array of the human species has shown up. In a free-wheeling, bawdy society here. We have the flamers, the gripers, the wisdom, the experienced, the immature, the informed, of all shapes, stripes and sizes. The appeal is that in this morass--as anywhere in life--the helpful information and the facts are to be found. In the meanwhile, there is stimulation, excitement, entertainment, humor and friendships. And the sheer openness of the place is what lends credibility to the facts (with regard to PCGS or anyting else) when it emerges.
Slammers of PCGS and trolls have risen and fallen, have come and gone, as long as I've been here. So have slammers of ACG, organized religion, the Bengals, Bill Clinton, the theory that the world is round, etc.
But can any of us demonstrate that this free-wheeling morass (which, indicentally, is enormously popular and is growing in participation) has demonstrably hurt PCGS? I submit that it has paid PCGS bid dividends, in terms of exposure, in terms of garnering feedback for you, and particularly in terms of demonstrating that PCGS has guts and class.
Let me AGAIN praise PCGS for this imaginative market tool, the very free-wheeling and open nature of which is its appeal.
The Boards have survived this long without your getting touchy about the inevitable unfair comments and critiques (which in my experience have usually been met by informative rejoinders by other members, generally without PCGS' official need to intervene).
Why on earth now??
I say let it alone, Mr. Homerun. It will remain to your advantage and credit.
Personally, I don't think slamming PCGS was the issue. It was flaming other people as well as dealers on the boards. Some folks like to flame a dealer because his fingernails are dirty, others flame because of bad coin deals. Some flamed dealers with one sided stories which sole purpose was to slander. I am bit torn, since much information is very good, and some threads warn the general coin collecting public on what to avoid. However, David Hall has the best interest of his company at heart, plus the entire network of PCGS dealers to think about.
All the "this TPG company sux" threads stink, not just the ones directed at PCGS. The way I see it, if your product is so clearly superior, there's no need to bash the competition. That's not competitive, it's anti-competitive behavior IMHO. Tell us why you're better/smarter/superior, not why everyone else sux Who's the troll now?
I think the flame wars prolly constitute more of the problem also. They are also the reasons that I stay out of the boards on weekends (don't really need that much blood-letting on a regular basis).
As to the main thrust of this - it all boils down to this: it's their boards and they can run them however they want to. Anybody who doesn't like the way they are being run can take thier blocks and go play elsewhere.
I have learned an incredible amount about a lot of coin series that I do not collect (but prolly will in the future), and I am sure that there is a lot more knowledge out there for the asking. That knowledge can be disseminated in a civilized manner (and usually is) - there is no real need for the flame wars that seem to be a constant part of this board (isn't that what the open forum was created for anyway?!?!?).
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I hope that PCGS remembers that although some comments may seem to "bash" their product, some comments may be legitimate service complaints that are not being addressed through normal channels (ie. unresponsive customer service staff) and that suppressing those kinds of posts will do more harm than good.
I have been on enough to have participated in several threads that have been pulled midsentence (not because of me). I was and am aware PCGS has the right to do just that. Dakra's post last night would have been personally insulting to me were I DH. A link to the boards across the street in today's thread would have probably been acceptable.
As for being asked to leave, I imagine if I am asked to leave, it will be time for my departure anyway.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
You long-time members know that the administrators have always - always - been very tolerant of the board content, even when it's derogatory.
There's a difference between a complaint, and posts that just bad-mouth the company with a broad brush. I have observed the level of content that is derogatory rising sharply of late. It's unfair to compare this to censorship. None of you would let customers post such messages on the walls of your own business, or let them stand in your store and bad-mouth you to other customers. Be reasonable. I think as a group we can manage to conduct ourselves in a way that is acceptable to our hosts while not doing the equivalent of taking a dump on their front porch. I have made good friends here and learned a ton about coins and I surely don't want that to come to an end.
Since the admins have been quite lenient in the past, let's give them a chance instead of freaking out. I don't think they are itching to ban a boatload of members. I think they will allow complaints if they are reasonably presented.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
How about one officially sanctioned PCGS basher? Permitted to bash on behalf of the forum board members? Of course, having a substantial salary and CU stock options.
When I walk into a restaurant, and the new sign says "no smoking" I have one of two choices since it's their restaurant. Since I don't smoke the rule won't affect me. I'm there for the food, not the smoke. Joe. Since most of the people on the message board are PCGS customers, wouldnt a more correct analogy be that we are not allowed to complain about the food?
my thoughts were always if not for pcgs, we wouldnt even have a form to get together ,and exchange our thoughts, and information. fun is one thing, disagreeing is fine if done with respect. openly bashing, and insulting other form members, and pcgs is something completely diffrent. i always wondered why some of..... these people..... even bothered to post here.......hopefully they will be removed, or just leave.....thanks david, its a great idea.
I really hope I didn't cause all of this. I promise not to bash PCGS anymore, however I must say censorship doesn't really prove anything. I realize that you basically own this place, Mr. Hall, but constructive criticism can be helpful in improving your company. Censorship just gives justification to bash more. As Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever. -Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
I'd agree re your comment was overdue. I have no problem banning outright flames, as long as constructive criticism is left alone. A perfect example of the latter is that I am a big fan of PCGS on the whole, though I do have issues re what I believe are some inconsistencies re grading Old Copper as pertaining to color.
I also would be annoyed if I was hosting a website when a few of the users posted a message to the effect that "you ****."
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Littlewitcher- I don't believe your comments had anything to do with this decision. Nor our comments about his response. Neither did the posting of a letter from across the street.
When a couple of world-class dealers and crack-out graders leveled strong criticism and accusations, it started the ball rolling. I think the skin was thin.
Seems like a fair policy, and should enhance the quality of this board.
If the local barber shop has a bunch of old geezers with nothing better to do hanging around all day, I'm sure the owner doesn't want to be hearing how bad he cuts hair.
I'm sure negative comments about PCGS that are constructive will be allowed, but not free ad space for their competitors or soap boxes for their detractors.
Another good policy may be to limit the number of posts per week. It would eliminate the amount of "noise" and may encourage people to improve the quality of their posts.
You know whats funny? All of the "bashing" and "issues with PCGS" threads get the most responses. They usually start serious but like the good bunch of guys and gals we are it usually turns light hearted. Personally, I think HRH should stay off of the forum. We usually don't get many direct responses from him regarding issues or such, even when asked directly. To me he's pretending to be "here" but he has enough stuff to do in his life I'm sure like thumbing through a "Bower-less and Merena-less catalog" (I loved that story bwaaahhhaaa). What PCGS should do is create something like AOL does with their warning system. Someone says something bad you can file a warning with PCGS and they can decided whether to punish or not. 3 strikes your out sort a deal. Leave our forum, and it is "our" forum, not just PCGS'.
Will this apply to all grading companies? If so, I demand that any posts of all grading companies should be removed!! If you blow your own horn, be careful of who you are behind!!
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>When a couple of world-class dealers and crack-out graders leveled strong criticism and accusations, it started the ball rolling. I think the skin was thin.
A couple of temper tantrums got this started. >>
Agreed. As a casual observer to those series of posts, I sure did learn a lot though, and I feel that I'm a better collector as a result. It's my feeling that my education here has been enourmous. Not only about coins themselves, but equally important, the coin business.
Andy
We are finite beings, limited in all our powers, and, hence, our conclusions are not only relative, but they should ever be held subject to correction. Positive assurance is unattainable. The dogmatist is the only one who claims to possess absolute certainty.
<< <i>PCGs rules, HepDaddyHall is really boss and more grading for me! come on' bashers, make those kool aid comments now..... As I am mixing up a batch of Margaritas! >>
Careful. Bashing bashers for bashing the bashers who are bashing PCGS might get you tossed. ;-)
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
Comments
1 more thing, mr. hall,
<< <i>We wanted it to be your boards...even though we were paying the costs. >>
actually, its your customers that pay for the cost, no?
K S
Even with all the bashing, the boards have undoubtedly increased the purchasing of the PCGS product and I believe a very strong argument can be made that some of the bashing will have positive effects on both us the customer and PCGS's quality. Think if no one was ever allowed to post the fingerprint issue. Or that continued threads on this issue were squashed?
I am afraid that what we are going to see is people getting kicked off for not saying what PCGS wants to hear. Then we will get those same members registering under different email addresses and posting even worse garbage, this happens on the Yahoo boards. IMO, its not a smart business decision to censor the boards completely. If PCGS has no problems then what is there to worry about? I hope that intelligent people can make there own informed decision about what to believe from a post or use free will and ignore the post and not just drink the koolaid.
More Fbl's for me!
More Full Torchies for me!
More Full Split Bands for me!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Let's see if his PCGS rantings come to a halt or if he falls thru the ice!
I wholewheartedly agree with this. Unfortunately the board has grown to a size where there are enough of these people around -- and enough legitimate posters around that take the bait -- that it's become a real problem.
I would hope that any censoring focuses on ALL such activity, regardless of the target. Not just the anti-PCGS activity.
When I walk into a restaurant, and the new sign says "no smoking" I have one of two choices since it's their restaurant. Since I don't smoke the rule won't affect me. I'm there for the food, not the smoke.
Joe
<< <i>I am afraid that what we are going to see is people getting kicked off for not saying what PCGS wants to hear. >>
I'm not afraid of that happening at all. My gut feeling is that PCGS will use this right of censor with responsibility and only in extreme cases.
If this turns out not to be the case, then I have the right to go elsewhere.
Clankeye
I was wondering about that, too. The open forum sure gets a bit "frisky" at times, but I thought that was why they had that forum to begin with.
In fact I just picked up a package from PCGS today! Also the service was much faster than I had expected. Their customer service was also very friendly and helpful.
I do wonder if Homerun is sincerely interested in fixing the problems and perceptions at CU and PCGS or just hiding his dirty little secrets under the rug? But it is his site!!!
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
<< <i>It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow
message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support >>
I have seen it mentioned by more than one person in this thread that PCGS sells
a product. Since when did PCGS offer a product? I could have sworn that our beloved
coins were the product and that PCGS offered a service. Am I wrong here? If PCGS is
selling a product, and dealers are selling and supporting that product, than it what
exactly is this product? A slab? I don't know about the rest of you, but I collect coins,
not slabs. When a slab has become more important that the product within, I think
its time to look a bit more closely at what PCGS is doing to promote the hobby.
<< <i>A slab? I don't know about the rest of you, but I collect coins, >>
I collect old slabs. They are neat.
Cameron Kiefer
Yeah, yeah. This is a service provided by PCGS. They have the "right" to run it however they want to. It is not a "right" but a "privilege," etc.
I submit, though, that this service is a marketing tool. And an exceptional, admireable and imaginative one, at that. It's been up for a few years now, during most of which I've been an interested participant.
Throughout that time, the array of the human species has shown up. In a free-wheeling, bawdy society here. We have the flamers, the gripers, the wisdom, the experienced, the immature, the informed, of all shapes, stripes and sizes. The appeal is that in this morass--as anywhere in life--the helpful information and the facts are to be found. In the meanwhile, there is stimulation, excitement, entertainment, humor and friendships. And the sheer openness of the place is what lends credibility to the facts (with regard to PCGS or anyting else) when it emerges.
Slammers of PCGS and trolls have risen and fallen, have come and gone, as long as I've been here. So have slammers of ACG, organized religion, the Bengals, Bill Clinton, the theory that the world is round, etc.
But can any of us demonstrate that this free-wheeling morass (which, indicentally, is enormously popular and is growing in participation) has demonstrably hurt PCGS? I submit that it has paid PCGS bid dividends, in terms of exposure, in terms of garnering feedback for you, and particularly in terms of demonstrating that PCGS has guts and class.
Let me AGAIN praise PCGS for this imaginative market tool, the very free-wheeling and open nature of which is its appeal.
The Boards have survived this long without your getting touchy about the inevitable unfair comments and critiques (which in my experience have usually been met by informative rejoinders by other members, generally without PCGS' official need to intervene).
Why on earth now??
I say let it alone, Mr. Homerun. It will remain to your advantage and credit.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
TRUTH
As to the main thrust of this - it all boils down to this: it's their boards and they can run them however they want to. Anybody who doesn't like the way they are being run can take thier blocks and go play elsewhere.
I have learned an incredible amount about a lot of coin series that I do not collect (but prolly will in the future), and I am sure that there is a lot more knowledge out there for the asking. That knowledge can be disseminated in a civilized manner (and usually is) - there is no real need for the flame wars that seem to be a constant part of this board (isn't that what the open forum was created for anyway?!?!?).
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
actually it belongs to the CLCT shareholders, homerun speaks for them.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
As for being asked to leave, I imagine if I am asked to leave, it will be time for my departure anyway.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
There's a difference between a complaint, and posts that just bad-mouth the company with a broad brush. I have observed the level of content that is derogatory rising sharply of late. It's unfair to compare this to censorship. None of you would let customers post such messages on the walls of your own business, or let them stand in your store and bad-mouth you to other customers. Be reasonable. I think as a group we can manage to conduct ourselves in a way that is acceptable to our hosts while not doing the equivalent of taking a dump on their front porch. I have made good friends here and learned a ton about coins and I surely don't want that to come to an end.
Since the admins have been quite lenient in the past, let's give them a chance instead of freaking out. I don't think they are itching to ban a boatload of members. I think they will allow complaints if they are reasonably presented.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
TRUTH
<< <i>A slab? I don't know about the rest of you, but I collect coins >>
But some people are too fixated on collecting slab inserts, specifically those that'll jack up their registry standing.
1.First warning- No Modern Service
2.Second warning- No Modern, Economy Service
3.Third warning- No Modern, Economy, Regular Service
4.Final warning- NO SOUP FOR YOU- NEXT
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
Do you think they are taking names as we speak?
A. Nonamis
I'd agree re your comment was overdue. I have no problem banning outright flames, as long as constructive criticism is left alone. A perfect example of the latter is that I am a big fan of PCGS on the whole, though I do have issues re what I believe are some inconsistencies re grading Old Copper as pertaining to color.
I also would be annoyed if I was hosting a website when a few of the users posted a message to the effect that "you ****."
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
come on' bashers, make those kool aid comments now..... As I am mixing up a batch of Margaritas!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
LMAO
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
When a couple of world-class dealers and crack-out graders leveled strong criticism and accusations, it started the ball rolling. I think the skin was thin.
A couple of temper tantrums got this started.
--------
Howdy from Houston...
Can't keep my eyes
from the circling skies
Tongue tied and twisted
Just an earthbound misfit,
I
">my registry set
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
If the local barber shop has a bunch of old geezers with nothing better to do hanging around all day, I'm sure the owner doesn't want to be hearing how bad he cuts hair.
I'm sure negative comments about PCGS that are constructive will be allowed, but not free ad space for their competitors or soap boxes for their detractors.
Another good policy may be to limit the number of posts per week. It would eliminate the amount of "noise" and may encourage people to improve the quality of their posts.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Tom
.............................if we all gave an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth............we would all be blind, and toothless...........
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
behind or on either side of him.
Camelot
<< <i>PCGs rules, HepDaddyHall is really boss and more grading for me!
come on' bashers, make those kool aid comments now..... As I am mixing up a batch of Margaritas! >>
Lucy,
What the heck does this have to do with this thread?
Censorship is a real bad idea.
Civility among members is a great idea!!
of the web for civility and wholesomeness. I know that work outs are good for the
cardiovascular system, but lets not leap to conclusions, or jump prematurely at every change.
Camelot
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>When a couple of world-class dealers and crack-out graders leveled strong criticism and accusations, it started the ball rolling. I think the skin was thin.
A couple of temper tantrums got this started. >>
Agreed. As a casual observer to those series of posts, I sure did learn a lot though, and I feel that I'm a better collector as a result. It's my feeling that my education here has been enourmous. Not only about coins themselves, but equally important, the coin business.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
Could you place a smile on the kids face?
Camelot
<< <i>PCGs rules, HepDaddyHall is really boss and more grading for me! come on' bashers, make those kool aid comments now..... As I am mixing up a batch of Margaritas! >>
Careful. Bashing bashers for bashing the bashers who are bashing PCGS might get you tossed. ;-)
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