Well, personally I am not a fan of censorship. I think that the majority of the board members have enough intelligence to decide what is relevant and what is just a tirade from an unhappy person. So you simply decide to censor the thread by not responding or simply not reading it. To not give members the option of deciding a topics worth does a diservice to the members and the powers that be. I will still frequent these boards regardless of the level of censorship. These boards just contain too much knowledge to pass up. I have learned more here than in any books I have read. That being said, hopefully PCGS is secure enough to find well founded criticism as positive feedback to help improve customer relations. Fingerprints, the log jam that appears to be in evidence are of great concern. It has caused me to hold off submitting my few meager raw coins. These issues do need to be addressed and remedied. However I do continue to buy slabbed coins from a few grading companies. I will continue to do this no matter what politics or BS is going on with a company as long as the coins meet my standards. Good nite to all.
<< <i>Lucy, I think its time you give AA a call. >>
We had a AA meeting about my pad, the Jukebox was rockin', the joint started jumpin', the cats started Boppin', and the frozen Margaritas were flowing, they declared it a complete and utter failure.....
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
First of all, I don't agree with censorship of these boards in general. Sure if one person got really bad, they could be warned, and maybe removed, but why punish everyone? Also, what if there is constructive criticism, such as of a certain dealer's website.
If someone gets back a "fingerprint" slab from PCGS, what are they supposed to do? Be cheery and announce to the world they got a coin back? This may lead to people not being able to, or being afraid to complain about whatever their issue is.
Plus, what about the Open Forum? It certainly isn't a place people go to tell each other how great they all are all the time. I really think alot of people take some remarks too seriously.
If I think a dealer is a jerk, or something sucks, I'm sure as heck not going to come on here and be happy about it. I guess I just won't be able to post. Gee, that does others who may learn of problems with this dealer or whatever later alot of good!
I always liked these boards more then the NGC boards, partly because there was no censorship (other then spelling some words!). Now, I bet the # of people here will fall, as people are forced to conform or leave.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
We had a AA meeting about my pad, the Jukebox was rockin', the joint started jumpin', the cats started Boppin', and the frozen Margaritas were flowing, they declared it a complete and utter failure..... >>
Sounds like an AA meeting even I would like to attend!!
I didn't read through the comments, David, but it sounds fair to me. I wish though PCGS would understand that many of us are/were customers. You know it is a two way street.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Back to the topic at hand. If Mr. Hall would prefer that members do not post their "dirty laundry", why not have an on line complaint box or suggestions box. This way if someone feels the need to let PCGS know they they are really unhappy with that finger print they just received, they have a place to turn.
Well If you really don't like censorship, you wouldn't like the cbs evening news or any of the other networks for that matter. And the evening newspaper? forget it as well. You know like why does every national news story start with how many palistinian attacks happened in Isreal today? More people are killed by motorcycle wrecks everyday in this country than all the attacks in Isreal, but what do the networks want us to hear?
As for censorship of this board, Its ok with me. We are playing with their ball and if they don't like the game they might just take their ball and go home. If I paid for a sight only to allow people to call me all kinds of names and constantly degrade me and my system of operation, I'd pull the plug! I will be surprised if over a small handful of dissidents are ever booted.
I think everyone is overreacting to this announcement.
I don't think it will be rampant censorship. I DO think those abusive posts will be deleted, and I think if a poster establishes a pattern of Abuse, they will be banned.
Please do not take this as a personal flame, because I hope this forum well knows by now I do not operate that way, but ... Censorship -- short of legally actionable libel -- is the stuff of little and scared minds. I believe the members of this forum are, on the main, of above-average intelligence and very able of separating the wheat from the chaff and recognizing mean-spirited, off-base attacks when they occur.
The marketplace of ideas should be free and open, with constructive criticism and thought-provoking suggestions welcomed. Censorship in any form, in the slightest form, chills debate and subconsciously demands meekness. And, once down that path, there is never a retreat -- only an advance to restrict what can be said, by whom, at what juncture. I would hope, as homerun acknowledges, that PCGS views this board as a chance to learn its customers concerns and desires and move to address them.
It should not serve to restrict meaningful discussion and the civil expression of opinions that may run contrary to those of management. You are a bigger company and a bigger man or woman for meeting any untoward comments head on, and discussing them, rather than deleting them. That said, PCGS does own this forum and can demand that those who want to play here follow their rules. But, it is a sad day, a way of saying you do not trust the judgment of your customers to weigh opinions against fact and make their own determination of where the truth rests.
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." -- Voltaire's Essay on Tolerance
<< <i>This board is provided as a free service and is part of PCGS' overall marketing plan >>
odd how so many of you think anything provided by a corporation is "free". you pay for this board, part of every dollar you spend on slabing coins goes to support the servers, salary, etc. of the support for this forum. but i agree that those who spend the most on it, ie. the big-time submitters, ought to have a larger vote as to what gets censord, etc.
<< <i>It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support >>
wouldn't it be a good idea to advise those same dealers to air their concerns on this same forum then?
<< <i>my thoughts were always if not for pcgs, we wouldnt even have a forum to get together ,and exchange our thoughts, and information >>
uh, yeah. whatever did we poor lost souls do before we had the pcgs forum.
bottom line for me, is i'm surprised at mr. hall's level of concern. this forum just doesn't amount to a whole lot in the scheme of things, & i seriously doubt it has any discernible impact on pcgs's bottom line.
To follow up with Dorkkarl's remark -- as for Platinum & Gold Level Members, access to the Forum is a part of the membership agreement and hence it is paid for through membership fees.
A "public" forum is a place for the "public" to express their opinions. If PCGS is truly righteous and almighty, then it shall prevail in the long run by answering to, and overcoming, any criticism. What good would this forum be without TRUE opinions and feelings from all segments of our hobby (collectors and dealers)? Is it really in PCGS's best interest to eliminate the forum just because it is not 100% PCGS friendly? Talk about boring!! It would be about as much fun as participating in a communist party chat room.
I think the fact that PCGS cares about this forum shows it's not just the flea on an ant on an anthill on a planet. Perhaps it was some time ago, but now it is a bigger entity. And bigger and bigger named dealers are participating in the open. Still not the same influence as, say, Heritage but more than inconsequential.
Should David Hall take a poll? Seems this forum can provide invaluable feedback on PCGS products botht he good and the bad.
Many companies spend major dollars getting customers insights. PCGS can get them for free right here.
Bashing and mean spirited comments should go. Fact based comments, even though they may be bashing should not go. They help people make decisions on who to deal with. If the dealers in question would take note, vs censor, they would probably do more business, not less.
Build your business based on customer feedback and you'll have a healthy business.
I am sure that HRH is sitting at home getting a good laugh at this. His diversion has succeeded.
His post has tuned everyone's eyes toward this "I might be censored or kicked off the forum - Is he talking about me?", which he likely has no intention of doing. I believe the sole reason he stated the policy was to remove the MSalzberg NGC Advertisement/PCGS attack. I am sure that post did upset some PCGS Dealers. It appears to be gone.
That post was not constructive criticism from a customer, it was an attack from a competitor. I believe for PCGS to have that removed was fair game.
Some of the allegations against PCGS are completely slanderous. For some reason, people act like complete fools on e-mail. I will draw a parallel. This is a PCGS owned forum. Imagine walking into a retail store and yelling your a complaint at the top of your lungs. That is how it feels here sometimes.
Do you think this forum is the only way that PCGS listens to customers? They get e-mails all the time. They get calls to their customer service centers. They likely have a "customer council" with different customer groups that they can hold meetings with at major shows and perhaps fly annually to headquarters to review key new programs.
I like the idea of the Q&A forum for airing key PCGS issues. PCGS can respond to issues without all the mindless banter. If they choose to make the issue public for comment, they can move it to the Coin Forum.
Let's all start acting like adults and professionals. I think PCGS will allow discussion of their services, including constructive criticism. Constructive is the key word.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
This is much ado about macht's nichts, friends! If you want to blow away the fog of overwrought concern, just breeze back and skim through the posts by Semicycler, Baley, Cladking, Clankeye, Kranky, and Relayer. (If nothing else, you won't need as many margueritas!)
This is CU's forum. The basic rules were stated when you joined and it hasn't really changed; what has changed is that CU intends to enforce their few, simple rules. Really, they have laid only a soft hand on the forum, intervening only when things went beyond the pale -- in fact, they have even dropped the link that used to go to the rules (and maybe it's time to restore it for the benefit of those few who've forgotten them). I didn't see the NGC letter, but frankly that was contrary to one of those few rules.
Based on their history to date of managing these boards, I doubt this will get as dour as the NGC forum ... but, then, it won't get as bad as rcc.coins either. No one who's basically civil in their posts is going to have to worry about getting blown into the electronic ether. Criticizing PCGS in an honest, fair and non-inflammatory manner will no doubt be treated just as it has been. The problem is with some who eat no grapes except those of wrath and feel they have to spew their bitter juice on other members or PCGS. Frankly, I won't miss those posts (or posters) -- I never learned anything from them anyway.
Think of it this way: We're invited guests ... that means we wipe our shoes on the door mat, not the host, and we treat the host and other guests the way we'd like to be treated. We don't have to agree with our hosts nor always share the same tastes, but we don't need to fricassee him and burn down his house. Hey, this isn't rocket science -- just Human Relations 101 ... and, yes, remedial classes are available.
As usual Askari you are right on the mark. I came to these boards to learn about my hobby, and thanks to a lot of intellegent people who post, I have. I do think some members are too excessive in their bashing of PGCS and also other members. As it has been said many times in this thread, constructive is good. Also, over at the "other site" their moderator Arch says he very rarely censors posts.
My hat is off to ya HRH, I don't want to hear the drivel from the ACG and SEGS loonies that are out there. If you have a problem with PCGS, this is not the place for you, take a hike! The good folks at PCGS have provided this space for us to get together, learn, teach, trade, and make connections and friends. These boards are a very valuable service, I spend more time here than any other website and appreciate PCGS for making it avaliable.
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
I am a big, no huge, supporter of PCGS but totally against any form of censorship. Sure there are a few morons on the boards but they usually leave after a while or are just ignored.
Will this be like Napster? The recording industry shut them down and now they have dozens of Napster clone sites. I say allow the bashers to remain. At least that way you can monitor what they are saying and post corrections and rebuttals.
You can boot the bashers but they will publish their message elsewhere like the newgroups. What will you do then? Do you want honest unfiltered critical opinions or a bunch of posters who do nothing but suck up? I want to know about and read differing opinions. PCGS should too, how else will you know if you are doing a good job?
It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support Could some of these dealers not want their crackout practices exposed? Their sales practices exposed? Their disputes exposed?
Bad bad bad idea Mr. Hall. I hope you will reconsider or modify this bad policy.
Censorship = Sayonara time for me. >>
This says it all for me! My thanks to the author DesertLizard!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it."
As for future action, please reread the announcement, especially the part that says...
"The message boards will censor any mean-spirited, one-sided criticism of PCGS and we will boot members that consistently bag on PCGS."
We not in the business of booting people off the PCGS message boards. We respect all of our customers and have learned a lot from their posts...both the positive and the negative ones. I have personally enjoyed most of the free-wheeling atmoshere of these forums and hope that virtually all of that fire will remain. Today we booted one person...just one person. A few days ago we booted another person. If your don't "consistently bag on PCGS"...in a "mean-spirited, one-sided" way, then we won't ever have a problem.
For those of you who think we've lost a couple of tell-it-like-it-is guys, I can tell you from my point of view this is simply not the case. I can tell you...whether you believe it or not...that a significant portion of what these bashers have harped on is not only mean-spirited and one-sided, it's simply not true. The fact that a person is very vocal in his posts, is good at expressing himself with the written word, and/or is clever in his approach, does not make what he says the truth.
Thanks for your understanding.
I'm here every Tuesday night on the Q&A Forum and I always try to answer every question you asked. For those of you who have asked questions that haven't been answered, please give me some time. In most cases where I don't answer questions immediately there is some part of the question that I don't know the answer to and I need to to talk to someone in PCGS operations or customer service to be sure I don't give you incorrect information. In a few cases I don't answer questions because we're about to make a decision on an issue brought up in your question and I want to be sure of what we're doing before I answer your question. I will get to virtually every question eventually.
Thanks again for your participation in our message boards.
If the guys hanging around the barber shop all day only comment on what a bad job the barber is doing, I can understand the barber telling them to go find another barber shop.
I don't think anybody could construe it to be an attempt to squash the "truth".
Perhaps after spending some time at the other barber shop, maybe the guys will miss the older barber and try and make friends again.
<< <i>We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it." >>
I believe there is a significant difference between "getting it" and "buying it"
There are a number of posters who have expressed their support for this move. They have "bought it"
There are a number of posters who question this activity. They "get it"
I am not a PCGS critic by any means. I am a dealer critic - and probably more of an outspoken one than might be diplomatic, but when I see a waddling, quacking creature, I am inclined to call it a duck.
I questioned this move when it was first announced, the move, as well as the public announcement of the prospect of banning those critical of PCGS in a "one sided, mean spirited way". I haven't seen the one sidedness personally, but perhaps I have not been paying attention.
However, to further come back and state that these "attacks" (or requests for clarification) were untrue after the parties who were raising questions can no longer respond in the same forum - now that's one sided. It is also taking very unfair advantage. Kinda sorta along the lines of:
We will ignore the questions we don't want to answer.
If you ask them often enough, we will take away the outlet in which you can ask them.
After you can no longer ask the questions, we'll simply say you were lying."
I can also understand that the company really doesn't want to invest in public "he said/she said" stuff on a public forum, as it becomes a big waste of time. But resolution could probably have been reached rather than by simply shooting the dissenter. Granted it makes the problem go away, but it sure does create questions in the minds of those who didn't get shot.
We are all entitled to our opinion.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
I am a relatively new participant in these boards and have gained a tremendous amount of collecting information and made collector contacts that I would have never been able to otherwise do. However, I have enjoyed the boards a little bit less recently because of all the bickering about whether or not PCGS is unfairly too tight, subsequent policy shifts, comments thereof, etc.
A lot of the griping about grading seems to stem from some dealers (hoping to reach for a grade so they can sell the coin for more money) and some collectors (hoping to reach for a grade for ego fulfillment) who are interested in the hobby for reasons other than the enjoyment inherent to the hobby itself. As a collector, I feel it is most important for the grading service to provide authenticity of the coin and reassurance that the coin has not been significantly violated. Admittedly, the price I pay for the coin is usually, for good or bad, tightly linked to the number assigned to the holder. For these reasons, I would like PCGS to be as consistent and reasonably conservative as possible. Ultimately, if the gradng service acts in the best interest of the collector, I think that the hobby will flourish (as will the dealers and the grading service).
As for the message board policy, I think that people should feel free to post their thoughts as always. I personally would like to see more discussion of coin collecting and less strife. There is already enough conflict in the world, so why look for more in our hobby?
Finally, I would like to thank CU for the venue that has enabled my interest in coins to grow.
<< <i>Dorkkarl - I must take issue with you on the matter of how influential this Forum has become. We do play a significant role in expressing the collecting habits of the knowledgable in the hobby. Our views, Likes and dislikes resonate thru the industry like ripples on a pound. >>
bear, then we must agree to disagree. probabely because i hang out in different circles, but for example, i have never heard someone say "i bought/sold this pcgs coin" or " i paid more/less for this pcgs coin because of something someone said on the pcgs forum". i admit thought that you may have opposing evidence.
<< <i> Perhaps because of the impact, what is said and how it is said on the Forum is so important to PCGS. >>
what indication do you have that it's important to pcgs? to me., the indication is this: mr. david hall was offended by something posted on the forum. your assuming he speaks for the pcgs entity. are you aware of other pcgs employess who were offended by specific posts?
<< <i>If you have a problem with PCGS, this is not the place for you, take a hike! >>
an absurd stance. gee, if i have a problem w/ my gov't, guess i'll just leave. if i have a problem w/ paying child support, guess i'll just take a hike. got a problem with the spouse? take a hike! yeah, that's sound strategy.
<< <i>Today we booted one person...just one person. A few days ago we booted another person. >>
mr. hall, names would really help. for me, what's at issue is unclear.
i assume that based on the fact i can still post - i haven't bashed enough to get the boot just yet.
(or i haven't booted enough to get bashed just yet)
Wow, I thought I was one of the ones who "got" it, but if banning gmarguli is any indication I think the implenting of the new policy is completely off-base. I had expected the censorship policy was going to look at the individual's overall contribution (or lack of) to the board.
There are others here who have contributed virtually nothing but troll-like behavior and criticism of PCGS (and grading services in general) without any positive contributions to balance things out.
I think most long-time posters here would recognize gmarguli's overall contributions to the board and the help he provided to other members, many of whom are PCGS customers.
Often, in fact, that help took the form of explaining PCGS procedures -- an area where PCGS communication is often sorely lacking. As recently as a few days ago he helped me out with a PCGS issue that I asked him about.
Even in the posts where he bashed PCGS, I'm not sure I can recall any where the criticism was unfounded. And as far as I recall, the underlying theme was always that he wanted PCGS to improve and succeed. I believe PCGS is (or was) his grading service of choice for both buying and selling, and received the bulk of his submission dollars.
Yeah, he was occasionally a jackass. But he was always a work horse. Bad move. Real bad.
Comments
<< <i>Careful. Bashing bashers for bashing the bashers who are bashing PCGS might get you tossed. ;-) >>
That got me dizzy.... time for more Margaritas!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I will still frequent these boards regardless of the level of censorship. These boards just contain too much knowledge to pass up. I have learned more here than in any books I have read. That being said, hopefully PCGS is secure enough to find well founded criticism as positive feedback to help improve customer relations. Fingerprints, the log jam that appears to be in evidence are of great concern. It has caused me to hold off submitting my few meager raw coins. These issues do need to be addressed and remedied. However I do continue to buy slabbed coins from a few grading companies. I will continue to do this no matter what politics or BS is going on with a company as long as the coins meet my standards.
Good nite to all.
That got me dizzy.... time for more Margaritas! >>
Lucy, I think its time you give AA a call.
Camelot
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Are you sick of that Gem bust quarter yet? If so, I'll gladly make you an offer!
<< <i>Lucy, I think its time you give AA a call. >>
We had a AA meeting about my pad, the Jukebox was rockin', the joint started jumpin', the cats started Boppin', and the frozen Margaritas were flowing, they declared it a complete and utter failure.....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Just wanted to make a few comments here:
First of all, I don't agree with censorship of these boards in general. Sure if one person got really bad, they could be warned, and maybe removed, but why punish everyone? Also, what if there is constructive criticism, such as of a certain dealer's website.
If someone gets back a "fingerprint" slab from PCGS, what are they supposed to do? Be cheery and announce to the world they got a coin back? This may lead to people not being able to, or being afraid to complain about whatever their issue is.
Plus, what about the Open Forum? It certainly isn't a place people go to tell each other how great they all are all the time. I really think alot of people take some remarks too seriously.
If I think a dealer is a jerk, or something sucks, I'm sure as heck not going to come on here and be happy about it. I guess I just won't be able to post. Gee, that does others who may learn of problems with this dealer or whatever later alot of good!
I always liked these boards more then the NGC boards, partly because there was no censorship (other then spelling some words!). Now, I bet the # of people here will fall, as people are forced to conform or leave.
JJacks
We had a AA meeting about my pad, the Jukebox was rockin', the joint started jumpin', the cats started Boppin', and the frozen Margaritas were flowing, they declared it a complete and utter failure..... >>
Sounds like an AA meeting even I would like to attend!!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
make an impressive pair of coins. I would say of all the coins I have purchased in the past two months,
that quarter is probably the most beautiful and spectacular coin. While the coins are resting in the bank
vault, I have pictures of them, I go to sleep with every night. Mrs Bear is starting to get suspicious.
Camelot
As for censorship of this board, Its ok with me. We are playing with their ball and if they don't like the game they might just take their ball and go home. If I paid for a sight only to allow people to call me all kinds of names and constantly degrade me and my system of operation, I'd pull the plug! I will be surprised if over a small handful of dissidents are ever booted.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I don't think it will be rampant censorship. I DO think those abusive posts will be deleted, and I think if a poster establishes a pattern of Abuse, they will be banned.
most of us will be fine.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Enjoy! The coin is a masterpiece!!
<< <i>I think everyone is overreacting to this announcement. >>
Who? I think people seem to be keeping their wits about them.
Clankeye
Camelot
<< <i>That got me dizzy.... time for more Margaritas! >>
Lucy, I think its time you give AA a call.
.............well, as long as youre up, make mine a large....and put on another buddy holly record
The marketplace of ideas should be free and open, with constructive criticism and thought-provoking suggestions welcomed. Censorship in any form, in the slightest form, chills debate and subconsciously demands meekness. And, once down that path, there is never a retreat -- only an advance to restrict what can be said, by whom, at what juncture. I would hope, as homerun acknowledges, that PCGS views this board as a chance to learn its customers concerns and desires and move to address them.
It should not serve to restrict meaningful discussion and the civil expression of opinions that may run contrary to those of management. You are a bigger company and a bigger man or woman for meeting any untoward comments head on, and discussing them, rather than deleting them. That said, PCGS does own this forum and can demand that those who want to play here follow their rules. But, it is a sad day, a way of saying you do not trust the judgment of your customers to weigh opinions against fact and make their own determination of where the truth rests.
"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." -- Voltaire's Essay on Tolerance
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>This board is provided as a free service and is part of PCGS' overall marketing plan >>
odd how so many of you think anything provided by a corporation is "free". you pay for this board, part of every dollar you spend on slabing coins goes to support the servers, salary, etc. of the support for this forum. but i agree that those who spend the most on it, ie. the big-time submitters, ought to have a larger vote as to what gets censord, etc.
<< <i>It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support >>
wouldn't it be a good idea to advise those same dealers to air their concerns on this same forum then?
<< <i>my thoughts were always if not for pcgs, we wouldnt even have a forum to get together ,and exchange our thoughts, and information >>
uh, yeah. whatever did we poor lost souls do before we had the pcgs forum.
bottom line for me, is i'm surprised at mr. hall's level of concern. this forum just doesn't amount to a whole lot in the scheme of things, & i seriously doubt it has any discernible impact on pcgs's bottom line.
K S
Michael
A "public" forum is a place for the "public" to express their opinions. If PCGS is truly righteous and almighty, then it shall prevail in the long run by answering to, and overcoming, any criticism. What good would this forum be without TRUE opinions and feelings from all segments of our hobby (collectors and dealers)? Is it really in PCGS's best interest to eliminate the forum just because it is not 100% PCGS friendly? Talk about boring!! It would be about as much fun as participating in a communist party chat room.
We do play a significant role in expressing the collecting habits of the knowledgable in the hobby.
Our views, Likes and dislikes resonate thru the industry like ripples on a pound. Perhaps because
of the impact, what is said and how it is said on the Forum is so important to PCGS. I do not believe
that we will have any attempt to stiffle our creativeness or our outspokeness. The only thing that
will change is the reduction in the number of threads and replys that are intended to be unduly
disrespectful, distastful or negative,
in such a continuous manner as to be destructive with no purpose
other then to harm , damage and destroy. Good people have been harmed, good people have been
chased away and people without the ability to defend themselves adequately,have become punching
bags for people who gained pleasure from inflicting pain and suffering.
This Forum is a wellspring of knowledge and creativity. It teaches both the newbies and the advanced
collector, the dealers and even the parent company of this website. This Forum and its members are
indeed unique and sometimes the system must be fine tuned to keep it running in its creative path.
Camelot
<< <i>Vam, I wish you Icon would stop crying already.
Could you place a smile on the kids face?
Many companies spend major dollars getting customers insights. PCGS can get them for free right here.
Bashing and mean spirited comments should go. Fact based comments, even though they may be bashing should not go. They help people make decisions on who to deal with. If the dealers in question would take note, vs censor, they would probably do more business, not less.
Build your business based on customer feedback and you'll have a healthy business.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>It would be about as much fun as participating in a communist party chat room. >>
Actually, Eddie, those can be a ton of fun. Pop in to one sometime and post "Marxism sucks!"
Russ, NCNE
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
His post has tuned everyone's eyes toward this "I might be censored or kicked off the forum - Is he talking about me?", which he likely has no intention of doing. I believe the sole reason he stated the policy was to remove the MSalzberg NGC Advertisement/PCGS attack. I am sure that post did upset some PCGS Dealers. It appears to be gone.
That post was not constructive criticism from a customer, it was an attack from a competitor. I believe for PCGS to have that removed was fair game.
Some of the allegations against PCGS are completely slanderous. For some reason, people act like complete fools on e-mail. I will draw a parallel. This is a PCGS owned forum. Imagine walking into a retail store and yelling your a complaint at the top of your lungs. That is how it feels here sometimes.
Do you think this forum is the only way that PCGS listens to customers? They get e-mails all the time. They get calls to their customer service centers. They likely have a "customer council" with different customer groups that they can hold meetings with at major shows and perhaps fly annually to headquarters to review key new programs.
I like the idea of the Q&A forum for airing key PCGS issues. PCGS can respond to issues without all the mindless banter. If they choose to make the issue public for comment, they can move it to the Coin Forum.
Let's all start acting like adults and professionals. I think PCGS will allow discussion of their services, including constructive criticism. Constructive is the key word.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
This is CU's forum. The basic rules were stated when you joined and it hasn't really changed; what has changed is that CU intends to enforce their few, simple rules. Really, they have laid only a soft hand on the forum, intervening only when things went beyond the pale -- in fact, they have even dropped the link that used to go to the rules (and maybe it's time to restore it for the benefit of those few who've forgotten them). I didn't see the NGC letter, but frankly that was contrary to one of those few rules.
Based on their history to date of managing these boards, I doubt this will get as dour as the NGC forum ... but, then, it won't get as bad as rcc.coins either. No one who's basically civil in their posts is going to have to worry about getting blown into the electronic ether. Criticizing PCGS in an honest, fair and non-inflammatory manner will no doubt be treated just as it has been. The problem is with some who eat no grapes except those of wrath and feel they have to spew their bitter juice on other members or PCGS. Frankly, I won't miss those posts (or posters) -- I never learned anything from them anyway.
Think of it this way: We're invited guests ... that means we wipe our shoes on the door mat, not the host, and we treat the host and other guests the way we'd like to be treated. We don't have to agree with our hosts nor always share the same tastes, but we don't need to fricassee him and burn down his house. Hey, this isn't rocket science -- just Human Relations 101 ... and, yes, remedial classes are available.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
I do think some members are too excessive in their bashing of PGCS and also other members. As it has been said many times in this thread, constructive is good.
Also, over at the "other site" their moderator Arch says he very rarely censors posts.
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<< <i>Whoaaaa!
I am a big, no huge, supporter of PCGS but totally against any form of censorship. Sure there are a few morons on the boards but they usually leave after a while or are just ignored.
Will this be like Napster? The recording industry shut them down and now they have dozens of Napster clone sites. I say allow the bashers to remain. At least that way you can monitor what they are saying and post corrections and rebuttals.
You can boot the bashers but they will publish their message elsewhere like the newgroups. What will you do then? Do you want honest unfiltered critical opinions or a bunch of posters who do nothing but suck up? I want to know about and read differing opinions. PCGS should too, how else will you know if you are doing a good job?
It has gotten so bad that numerous PCGS dealers have asked us why we allow message board posts that unfairly critisize the product they sell and support
Could some of these dealers not want their crackout practices exposed? Their sales practices exposed? Their disputes exposed?
Bad bad bad idea Mr. Hall. I hope you will reconsider or modify this bad policy.
Censorship = Sayonara time for me. >>
This says it all for me! My thanks to the author DesertLizard!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it."
As for future action, please reread the announcement, especially the part that says...
"The message boards will censor any mean-spirited, one-sided criticism of PCGS and we will boot members that consistently bag on PCGS."
We not in the business of booting people off the PCGS message boards. We respect all of our customers and have learned a lot from their posts...both the positive and the negative ones. I have personally enjoyed most of the free-wheeling atmoshere of these forums and hope that virtually all of that fire will remain. Today we booted one person...just one person. A few days ago we booted another person. If your don't "consistently bag on PCGS"...in a "mean-spirited, one-sided" way, then we won't ever have a problem.
For those of you who think we've lost a couple of tell-it-like-it-is guys, I can tell you from my point of view this is simply not the case. I can tell you...whether you believe it or not...that a significant portion of what these bashers have harped on is not only mean-spirited and one-sided, it's simply not true. The fact that a person is very vocal in his posts, is good at expressing himself with the written word, and/or is clever in his approach, does not make what he says the truth.
Thanks for your understanding.
I'm here every Tuesday night on the Q&A Forum and I always try to answer every question you asked. For those of you who have asked questions that haven't been answered, please give me some time. In most cases where I don't answer questions immediately there is some part of the question that I don't know the answer to and I need to to talk to someone in PCGS operations or customer service to be sure I don't give you incorrect information. In a few cases I don't answer questions because we're about to make a decision on an issue brought up in your question and I want to be sure of what we're doing before I answer your question. I will get to virtually every question eventually.
Thanks again for your participation in our message boards.
David Hall
If the guys hanging around the barber shop all day only comment on what a bad job the barber is doing, I can understand the barber telling them to go find another barber shop.
I don't think anybody could construe it to be an attempt to squash the "truth".
Perhaps after spending some time at the other barber shop, maybe the guys will miss the older barber and try and make friends again.
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since 8/1/6
<< <i>We realize this was a controversial step, and we truly had mixed emotions. From the reponses and comments in this thread, it's my opinion that most of you "get it." >>
I believe there is a significant difference between "getting it" and "buying it"
There are a number of posters who have expressed their support for this move. They have "bought it"
There are a number of posters who question this activity. They "get it"
I am not a PCGS critic by any means. I am a dealer critic - and probably more of an outspoken one than might be diplomatic, but when I see a waddling, quacking creature, I am inclined to call it a duck.
I questioned this move when it was first announced, the move, as well as the public announcement of the prospect of banning those critical of PCGS in a "one sided, mean spirited way". I haven't seen the one sidedness personally, but perhaps I have not been paying attention.
However, to further come back and state that these "attacks" (or requests for clarification) were untrue after the parties who were raising questions can no longer respond in the same forum - now that's one sided. It is also taking very unfair advantage. Kinda sorta along the lines of:
We will ignore the questions we don't want to answer.
If you ask them often enough, we will take away the outlet in which you can ask them.
After you can no longer ask the questions, we'll simply say you were lying."
I can also understand that the company really doesn't want to invest in public "he said/she said" stuff on a public forum, as it becomes a big waste of time. But resolution could probably have been reached rather than by simply shooting the dissenter. Granted it makes the problem go away, but it sure does create questions in the minds of those who didn't get shot.
We are all entitled to our opinion.
A lot of the griping about grading seems to stem from some dealers (hoping to reach for a grade so they can sell the coin for more money) and some collectors (hoping to reach for a grade for ego fulfillment) who are interested in the hobby for reasons other than the enjoyment inherent to the hobby itself. As a collector, I feel it is most important for the grading service to provide authenticity of the coin and reassurance that the coin has not been significantly violated. Admittedly, the price I pay for the coin is usually, for good or bad, tightly linked to the number assigned to the holder. For these reasons, I would like PCGS to be as consistent and reasonably conservative as possible. Ultimately, if the gradng service acts in the best interest of the collector, I think that the hobby will flourish (as will the dealers and the grading service).
As for the message board policy, I think that people should feel free to post their thoughts as always. I personally would like to see more discussion of coin collecting and less strife. There is already enough conflict in the world, so why look for more in our hobby?
Finally, I would like to thank CU for the venue that has enabled my interest in coins to grow.
<< <i>Dorkkarl - I must take issue with you on the matter of how influential this Forum has become. We do play a significant role in expressing the collecting habits of the knowledgable in the hobby. Our views, Likes and dislikes resonate thru the industry like ripples on a pound. >>
bear, then we must agree to disagree. probabely because i hang out in different circles, but for example, i have never heard someone say "i bought/sold this pcgs coin" or " i paid more/less for this pcgs coin because of something someone said on the pcgs forum". i admit thought that you may have opposing evidence.
<< <i> Perhaps because of the impact, what is said and how it is said on the Forum is so important to PCGS. >>
what indication do you have that it's important to pcgs? to me., the indication is this: mr. david hall was offended by something posted on the forum. your assuming he speaks for the pcgs entity. are you aware of other pcgs employess who were offended by specific posts?
<< <i>If you have a problem with PCGS, this is not the place for you, take a hike! >>
an absurd stance. gee, if i have a problem w/ my gov't, guess i'll just leave. if i have a problem w/ paying child support, guess i'll just take a hike. got a problem with the spouse? take a hike! yeah, that's sound strategy.
<< <i>Today we booted one person...just one person. A few days ago we booted another person. >>
mr. hall, names would really help. for me, what's at issue is unclear.
i assume that based on the fact i can still post - i haven't bashed enough to get the boot just yet.
(or i haven't booted enough to get bashed just yet)
K S
There are others here who have contributed virtually nothing but troll-like behavior and criticism of PCGS (and grading services in general) without any positive contributions to balance things out.
I think most long-time posters here would recognize gmarguli's overall contributions to the board and the help he provided to other members, many of whom are PCGS customers.
Often, in fact, that help took the form of explaining PCGS procedures -- an area where PCGS communication is often sorely lacking. As recently as a few days ago he helped me out with a PCGS issue that I asked him about.
Even in the posts where he bashed PCGS, I'm not sure I can recall any where the criticism was unfounded. And as far as I recall, the underlying theme was always that he wanted PCGS to improve and succeed. I believe PCGS is (or was) his grading service of choice for both buying and selling, and received the bulk of his submission dollars.
Yeah, he was occasionally a jackass. But he was always a work horse. Bad move. Real bad.