I know that two were sold retail for 60k privately. The grey values are 42,5/51k but I also know that a couple traded amongst dealers in the high 40s and maybe some at 50. Unfortunately, I think these things have a chance to appreciate faster than any other coin.
@Goldminers said:
Very few left on eBay and all very high asking prices, even with their special "offers". I am not on a dealer network to see if any are for sale there. It looks like the gold privies are not dropping in price yet as many expected. The reality is basically none are available to buy except at double the original price. Received an offer this morning for a PR70.
I wouldn't expect a price drop yet. No one is yet in need of selling.
I don't know how well the 69's will do, but with only 185 70's and a starting price of 40k, do you think any of the buyers are imminently going to be in a "need to sell" situation?
@PeakRarities said:
I know that two were sold retail for 60k privately. The grey values are 42,5/51k but I also know that a couple traded amongst dealers in the high 40s and maybe some at 50. Unfortunately, I think these things have a chance to appreciate faster than any other coin.
@Goldminers said:
Very few left on eBay and all very high asking prices, even with their special "offers". I am not on a dealer network to see if any are for sale there. It looks like the gold privies are not dropping in price yet as many expected. The reality is basically none are available to buy except at double the original price. Received an offer this morning for a PR70.
I wouldn't expect a price drop yet. No one is yet in need of selling.
I don't know how well the 69's will do, but with only 185 70's and a starting price of 40k, do you think any of the buyers are imminently going to be in a "need to sell" situation?
I do not. But give it time. At the moment, you still have buyers and few coins for sale. 5 years from now you may have no buyers and a few coins for sale. Or not. But I trust history to be somewhat predictive of the future.
@PeakRarities said:
I know that two were sold retail for 60k privately. The grey values are 42,5/51k but I also know that a couple traded amongst dealers in the high 40s and maybe some at 50. Unfortunately, I think these things have a chance to appreciate faster than any other coin.
@Goldminers said:
Very few left on eBay and all very high asking prices, even with their special "offers". I am not on a dealer network to see if any are for sale there. It looks like the gold privies are not dropping in price yet as many expected. The reality is basically none are available to buy except at double the original price. Received an offer this morning for a PR70.
I wouldn't expect a price drop yet. No one is yet in need of selling.
I don't know how well the 69's will do, but with only 185 70's and a starting price of 40k, do you think any of the buyers are imminently going to be in a "need to sell" situation?
There are only 13 graded 70's crossed over into CACG holders of the 185 that were originally in PCGS 70 holders. I think those should have a slightly higher premium long term, whatever that ends up being, compared to the PCGS slabbed versions.
The non-privy 70's are dropping under $5,000 now on eBay, but with more than 1,900 graded 70 at PCGS alone of the almost 10,000, that is probably to be expected at this stage, because so many were bought just to flip on eBay.
@telephoto1 said: @Goldbully@jmlanzaf Raw in OGP sold $3850. Buddy of mine, best offer he had according to him.
Edited for clarity.
So there we go. The hype is already over. $3850 is a very healthy premium to $2700 gold. Not so much to the $3640 original issue price -- ~6%, and, apparently, falling.
$200 is nothing to sneeze at, but, if dealers are offering to sell at $3850, they are likely not offering to buy at even $3640, so @MFezziwig's New Year's Day score might not have been quite the score it first appeared to have been.
@telephoto1 said: @Goldbully@jmlanzaf Raw in OGP sold $3850. Buddy of mine, best offer he had according to him.
Edited for clarity.
So there we go. The hype is already over. $3850 is a very healthy premium to $2700 gold. Not so much to the $3640 original issue price -- ~6%, and, apparently, falling.
$200 is nothing to sneeze at, but, if dealers are offering to sell at $3850, they are likely not offering to buy at even $3640, so @MFezziwig's New Year's Day score might not have been quite the score it first appeared to have been.
Good thing the Mint got smart and only struck 10,000 of these, and not 17,500. There are still nearly 300 of these golds on eBay. A lot of people bought these just to flip and most will have to lower their asking prices if they want to sell going forward.
Actual collector demand is dropping for most of the Mint's overpriced coins these days. I stopped buying the eagle and buffalo proofs, because they are just too expensive. If you want common date modern gold, just buy their bullion closer to spot.
@telephoto1 said: @Goldbully@jmlanzaf Raw in OGP sold $3850. Buddy of mine, best offer he had according to him.
Edited for clarity.
So there we go. The hype is already over. $3850 is a very healthy premium to $2700 gold. Not so much to the $3640 original issue price -- ~6%, and, apparently, falling.
$200 is nothing to sneeze at, but, if dealers are offering to sell at $3850, they are likely not offering to buy at even $3640, so @MFezziwig's New Year's Day score might not have been quite the score it first appeared to have been.
Good thing the Mint got smart and only struck 10,000 of these, and not 17,500. There are still nearly 300 of these golds on eBay. A lot of people bought these just to flip and most will have to lower their asking prices if they want to sell going forward.
Actual collector demand is dropping for most of the Mint's overpriced coins these days. I stopped buying the eagle and buffalo proofs, because they are just too expensive. If you want common date modern gold, just buy their bullion closer to spot.
True. But I still wish they would have been transparent with respect to what they were doing.
It would not have hurt them at all, and would have allowed people to plan to participate, or not, based on accurate information. I also seriously doubt they took action, to their own detriment, in order to support secondary market values. So I still think something else was going on with respect to announcing 17.5K but only making and selling 10K.
They could make more money, make more people happy, and not need secondary market values to be so high, if that's even what's going on, if they just sold more at a reduced numismatic premium from an obnoxiously high 30%+ to $2700 gold. They might have been able to sell 50K if they priced them at $3K each, instead of $3640, and no one would be upset that they weren't selling for $4K+ on eBay. Other than the flippers, who are now out anyway.
@telephoto1 said: @Goldbully@jmlanzaf Raw in OGP sold $3850. Buddy of mine, best offer he had according to him.
Edited for clarity.
True, raw examples and graded 69's are falling faster than 70's, which is to be expected.
Edited to clarify I am referring to the non-privy coins dropping which are raw and their graded 69's.
The privy coins are completely different as all were graded and only 230 of them total, not 10,000.
@PeakRarities said:
Most recent was 47k for a 69dcam, almost 10k more than the previous sale just a week earlier,
1) How is this accepted offer amount known or obtained?
2) Is there a shill factor that could be involved with this accepted offer amount?
3) Sources?
4) I see the sale information on WatchCount, but not the accepted offer amount. Can you elaborate or educate me on this if possible?
Thanks
@PeakRarities said:
Most recent was 47k for a 69dcam, almost 10k more than the previous sale just a week earlier,
1) How is this accepted offer amount known or obtained?
2) Is there a shill factor that could be involved with this accepted offer amount?
3) Sources?
4) I see the sale information on WatchCount, but not the accepted offer amount. Can you elaborate or educate me on this if possible?
Thanks
There are several places to get the actual amount shown. They work for a while and then they don't.
avaluer.net
130point.com/sales
cardboard market
I see no reason to believe these are anything other than actual sales. Why would you suspect shilling? There are only 45 gold privies in MS69 and 185 in MS70, making these the lowest mintages of basically any modern coin, that is not an error or other rare variety. The privy golds should stay stable or increase in value as more people realize how scarce they really are, and demand increases. Supply is limited.
Edited to say, of course the Mint can do this again with the 1804 dollar planned for the 250th Anniversary, but those will have similar demand, if not even more. These will still be scarce and valuable. There are literally millions of millionaires in the US. Only a few hundred of these gold privy coins will exist.
@PeakRarities said:
Most recent was 47k for a 69dcam, almost 10k more than the previous sale just a week earlier,
1) How is this accepted offer amount known or obtained?
2) Is there a shill factor that could be involved with this accepted offer amount?
3) Sources?
4) I see the sale information on WatchCount, but not the accepted offer amount. Can you elaborate or educate me on this if possible?
Thanks
There are several places to get the actual amount shown. They work for a while and then they don't.
avaluer.net
130point.com/sales
cardboard market
I see no reason to believe these are anything other than actual sales. Why would you suspect shilling? There are only 45 gold privies in MS69 and 185 in MS70, making these the lowest mintages of basically any modern coin, that is not an error or rare variety. The privy golds should stay stable or increase in value as more people realize how scarce they really are, and demand increases. Supply is limited.
Edited to say, of course the Mint can do this again with the 1804 dollar planned for the 250th Anniversary, but those will have similar demand, if not even more. These will still be scarce and valuable. There are literally millions of millionaires in the US. Only a few hundred of these gold privy coins will exist.
This is arguably a variety.
I would hesitate to make any prognostication about value increasing. Supply is limited but demand may be as well. They are not part of any broadly collected set and 99.9999% of collectors own exactly ZERO 5 figure coins.
The comparable coin for these by type is probably the 2006 $50 reverse proof Gold eagle that has a mintage of 9,996. The 2024 Flowing Hair gold proof came in at 9,974.
Yes, the privy coins are much lower at 230, but the question is how will the market price these long-term.
Right now entry level RP 2006 is about 4k. The standard flowing hair might go at around that price point.
Also, as gold prices increase, the coin price tends to stagnate until the price of gold eclipses the premium price. That has unfortunately happened to many modern gold coins. This is why I believe that coins by type rarity are more important than special privy and mint mark varieties.
@HalfDime said:
The comparable coin for these by type is probably the 2006 $50 reverse proof Gold eagle that has a mintage of 9,996. The 2024 Flowing Hair gold proof came in at 9,974.
Yes, the privy coins are much lower at 230, but the question is how will the market price these long-term.
Right now entry level RP 2006 is about 4k. The standard flowing hair might go at around that price point.
Also, as gold prices increase, the coin price tends to stagnate until the price of gold eclipses the premium price. That has unfortunately happened to many modern gold coins. This is why I believe that coins by type rarity are more important than special privy and mint mark varieties.
I agree. The regular FH gold with nearly 10,000 minted is likely to end up in the $3,500-$5,000 range as just another modern gold "type" coin. Some who collect modern gold will still be interested in owning one, at least for a while. They do really look exceptional in hand.
The Mint charges $3,600 now for an ounce of gold, so that $4k estimate is not much of an additional numismatic premium. The high initial Mint premium took away most all of the speculative long-term potential. There are plenty of modern gold coins with much lower mintages than 10,000 that sell for even less, all the way down to basically only melt value currently at $2,700.
At the same time, I also believe there is a smaller subset of collectors with deep pockets who will want to have the very low availability, privy variety at significant cost, which is already proven by the auction results and the few documented subsequent sales.
As you say, "The question is, how will the market price these long-term"?
In the short-term there are still a few more people who want to own one of these privy varieties, than people who want to sell theirs even at a decent profit, let alone a loss.
I would hesitate to make any prognostication about value increasing. Supply is limited but demand may be as well. They are not part of any broadly collected set and 99.9999% of collectors own exactly ZERO 5 figure coins.
Nothing to argue really. It is by definition a variety.
I would hesitate to make any prognostication about value increasing. Supply is limited but demand may be as well. They are not part of any broadly collected set and 99.9999% of collectors own exactly ZERO 5 figure coins.
Nothing to argue really. It is by definition a variety.
I would agree but I'm not sure everyone would so i hedge.
@PeakRarities said:
Appears that a 69 sold for 50k recently, this time at ask.
So it appears as though, at least for the time being, those astronomical SB auction prices that no one believed could possibly be achieved, were actually steals.
Turns out that there actually are more than 230 people in the world with the interest and means to chase something like this. Which means the Mint has been leaving mucho bucks on the table all along, and that we can expect to see more of these.
Those who were wrong can argue until they are blue in the face why it shouldn't be happening, and how it isn't sustainable unless it's an AGE with a privy mark, but the numbers don't lie.
I couldn't decide which photos best represent these coins. So I thought why not put up both of them? Especially for the privy mark version.
I think you did that same approach when you were imaging the 2009 UHR Gold at PCGS. I believe you said at the time, it was one of the hardest coins you had to image.....ergo the different looks.
@PeakRarities said:
Appears that a 69 sold for 50k recently, this time at ask.
So it appears as though, at least for the time being, those astronomical SB auction prices that no one believed could possibly be achieved, were actually steals.
Turns out that there actually are more than 230 people in the world with the interest and means to chase something like this. Which means the Mint has been leaving mucho bucks on the table all along, and that we can expect to see more of these.
Those who were wrong can argue until they are blue in the face why it shouldn't be happening, and how it isn't sustainable unless it's an AGE with a privy mark, but the numbers don't lie.
Good luck with these. We will see where the GC auction ends. I dont trust any of the eBay BIN/BO numbers. Too easy to shill.
"Those who were wrong can argue until they are blue in the face why it shouldn't be happening, and how it isn't sustainable unless it's an AGE with a privy mark, but the numbers don't lie"
Until the next "super special issue" of 200 is ready to go to auction. After that - the super duper special issue of 150.
It's a race to the bottom with one off **commems **with small mintages.
Comments
There are Chrome plugins. I think the one I use is Cardboard Market. It doesn't work all of the time though, but it works most of the time.
http://ProofCollection.Net
There will be a PR69 and a PR70 Flowing Hair gold privy coin up for auction at GC in a couple weeks.
These should get some decent bids if a lot of people who wanted one at the Stacks auction, did not have high enough bid limits in place to win.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
They still haven't listed. Do you know the seller(s)?
This^
I think this website should provide you best and final sales figures:
https://130point.com/sales/
I hope this works for you
Thanks for the "cardboard market" reference. It also works in Edge browser. Here was another sale of two privies.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I know that two were sold retail for 60k privately. The grey values are 42,5/51k but I also know that a couple traded amongst dealers in the high 40s and maybe some at 50. Unfortunately, I think these things have a chance to appreciate faster than any other coin.
I don't know how well the 69's will do, but with only 185 70's and a starting price of 40k, do you think any of the buyers are imminently going to be in a "need to sell" situation?
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
I do not. But give it time. At the moment, you still have buyers and few coins for sale. 5 years from now you may have no buyers and a few coins for sale. Or not. But I trust history to be somewhat predictive of the future.
Non-privy pieces are dropping. Under $4k sales at FUN.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
*+****
Graded?
There are only 13 graded 70's crossed over into CACG holders of the 185 that were originally in PCGS 70 holders. I think those should have a slightly higher premium long term, whatever that ends up being, compared to the PCGS slabbed versions.
The non-privy 70's are dropping under $5,000 now on eBay, but with more than 1,900 graded 70 at PCGS alone of the almost 10,000, that is probably to be expected at this stage, because so many were bought just to flip on eBay.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
wholesale?
@jmlanzaf, give it a rest. > @telephoto1 said:
Where can one obtain such a deal outside the FUN show?
What am I supposed to be giving a rest?
they are only 4500 on eBay which is a net $4000ish. I'd imagine a lot of dealers are at $4000 or less at shows and BMs.
@Goldbully @jmlanzaf Raw in OGP sold $3850. Buddy of mine, best offer he had according to him.
Edited for clarity.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
So there we go. The hype is already over. $3850 is a very healthy premium to $2700 gold. Not so much to the $3640 original issue price -- ~6%, and, apparently, falling.
$200 is nothing to sneeze at, but, if dealers are offering to sell at $3850, they are likely not offering to buy at even $3640, so @MFezziwig's New Year's Day score might not have been quite the score it first appeared to have been.
at least they are buying it, right?
Good thing the Mint got smart and only struck 10,000 of these, and not 17,500. There are still nearly 300 of these golds on eBay. A lot of people bought these just to flip and most will have to lower their asking prices if they want to sell going forward.
Actual collector demand is dropping for most of the Mint's overpriced coins these days. I stopped buying the eagle and buffalo proofs, because they are just too expensive. If you want common date modern gold, just buy their bullion closer to spot.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
True. But I still wish they would have been transparent with respect to what they were doing.
It would not have hurt them at all, and would have allowed people to plan to participate, or not, based on accurate information. I also seriously doubt they took action, to their own detriment, in order to support secondary market values. So I still think something else was going on with respect to announcing 17.5K but only making and selling 10K.
They could make more money, make more people happy, and not need secondary market values to be so high, if that's even what's going on, if they just sold more at a reduced numismatic premium from an obnoxiously high 30%+ to $2700 gold. They might have been able to sell 50K if they priced them at $3K each, instead of $3640, and no one would be upset that they weren't selling for $4K+ on eBay. Other than the flippers, who are now out anyway.
maybe they had to gold ration
True, raw examples and graded 69's are falling faster than 70's, which is to be expected.
Edited to clarify I am referring to the non-privy coins dropping which are raw and their graded 69's.
The privy coins are completely different as all were graded and only 230 of them total, not 10,000.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Most recent was 47k for a 69dcam, almost 10k more than the previous sale just a week earlier,
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm not proud to announce this, but we have our very first PCGS 68!
Proud? It's kind of a dubious distinction isn't it?
http://ProofCollection.Net
1) How is this accepted offer amount known or obtained?
2) Is there a shill factor that could be involved with this accepted offer amount?
3) Sources?
4) I see the sale information on WatchCount, but not the accepted offer amount. Can you elaborate or educate me on this if possible?
Thanks
I didn't know that WatchCount was still around.......
Didn't it give the accepted amount at one time?
I knew it would happen.
There are several places to get the actual amount shown. They work for a while and then they don't.
avaluer.net
130point.com/sales
cardboard market
I see no reason to believe these are anything other than actual sales. Why would you suspect shilling? There are only 45 gold privies in MS69 and 185 in MS70, making these the lowest mintages of basically any modern coin, that is not an error or other rare variety. The privy golds should stay stable or increase in value as more people realize how scarce they really are, and demand increases. Supply is limited.
Edited to say, of course the Mint can do this again with the 1804 dollar planned for the 250th Anniversary, but those will have similar demand, if not even more. These will still be scarce and valuable. There are literally millions of millionaires in the US. Only a few hundred of these gold privy coins will exist.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The comparable coin for these by type is probably the 2006 $50 reverse proof Gold eagle that has a mintage of 9,996. The 2024 Flowing Hair gold proof came in at 9,974.
Yes, the privy coins are much lower at 230, but the question is how will the market price these long-term.
Right now entry level RP 2006 is about 4k. The standard flowing hair might go at around that price point.
Also, as gold prices increase, the coin price tends to stagnate until the price of gold eclipses the premium price. That has unfortunately happened to many modern gold coins. This is why I believe that coins by type rarity are more important than special privy and mint mark varieties.
I agree. The regular FH gold with nearly 10,000 minted is likely to end up in the $3,500-$5,000 range as just another modern gold "type" coin. Some who collect modern gold will still be interested in owning one, at least for a while. They do really look exceptional in hand.
The Mint charges $3,600 now for an ounce of gold, so that $4k estimate is not much of an additional numismatic premium. The high initial Mint premium took away most all of the speculative long-term potential. There are plenty of modern gold coins with much lower mintages than 10,000 that sell for even less, all the way down to basically only melt value currently at $2,700.
At the same time, I also believe there is a smaller subset of collectors with deep pockets who will want to have the very low availability, privy variety at significant cost, which is already proven by the auction results and the few documented subsequent sales.
As you say, "The question is, how will the market price these long-term"?
In the short-term there are still a few more people who want to own one of these privy varieties, than people who want to sell theirs even at a decent profit, let alone a loss.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
>
Two FH gold with privies are listed at GC in the category "Ultra High Reliefs/High Reliefs".
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Nothing to argue really. It is by definition a variety.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
http://ProofCollection.Net
The starting bid on the PR70 is now showing $1.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I would agree but I'm not sure everyone would so i hedge.
It's probably worth a bid
go for melt. you might get it since it is just a modern copy coin
The 69 #148 of 230 with privy now at $10,504 with 18 days to go.
The 70 CACG is $2,250......154 of 230.
What happened to $45k?
@Goldbully said " What happened to the 45k?
>
The 45k was a preliminary listing prior to the no reserve auction listing. Phil's photos are now posted.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Appears that a 69 sold for 50k recently, this time at ask.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
So it appears as though, at least for the time being, those astronomical SB auction prices that no one believed could possibly be achieved, were actually steals.
Turns out that there actually are more than 230 people in the world with the interest and means to chase something like this. Which means the Mint has been leaving mucho bucks on the table all along, and that we can expect to see more of these.
Those who were wrong can argue until they are blue in the face why it shouldn't be happening, and how it isn't sustainable unless it's an AGE with a privy mark, but the numbers don't lie.
I couldn't decide which photos best represent these coins. So I thought why not put up both of them? Especially for the privy mark version.
Phil Arnold
Director of Photography, GreatCollections
greatcollections.com
An interesting image from GC auction of Privy marked piece #148 of 230. It's a PCGS PR69DCAM with signed COA. This auction ends during the Super Bowl. Not sure if that will have an impact on the realized price or not.
greatcollections.com/2024-Flowing-Hair-High-Relief-Gold-Dollar-230th-Anniversary-Privy-Mark-148th-of-230-Struck-PCGS-Proof-69-DCAM-With-Signed-Certificate-of-Authenticity
It shouldn't, they have almost two weeks to enter their bid.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I'm glad that you did, please keep this up.
Especially for coins of high interest and high value, old or new.
Much appreciated!
I think you did that same approach when you were imaging the 2009 UHR Gold at PCGS. I believe you said at the time, it was one of the hardest coins you had to image.....ergo the different looks.
The first one was owned by me for several years.
Good luck with these. We will see where the GC auction ends. I dont trust any of the eBay BIN/BO numbers. Too easy to shill.
"Those who were wrong can argue until they are blue in the face why it shouldn't be happening, and how it isn't sustainable unless it's an AGE with a privy mark, but the numbers don't lie"
Until the next "super special issue" of 200 is ready to go to auction. After that - the super duper special issue of 150.
It's a race to the bottom with one off **commems **with small mintages.