It seems authentic in hand, they were faithful to the original. In fact the modern versions of old designs since lets say 2006 beginning under Moy tend to be more faithful than the period from the 1990s until Moy.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
Make sure we’re not thinking that a “dealer” is the same thing as a “bulk submitter”. These are 2 different things. A dealer can submit in bulk, but a bulk submitter is not necessarily a dealer.
I’m not a dealer, but I can submit in bulk, and I cannot specify a min grade 70.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
At this early stage, this indicates a good chance that less than half of the medals submitted by the public for grading will be 70's.
Actually, they do. Bulk submitters always have the option of specifying a minimum grade of 70, regardless of what they have placed on the label.
And this directly from the PCGS webpage. Seems to be a contradiction as @MetroD also pointed out above.
I know. But it's BS. I am 99.9% sure someone from PCGS chimed in on another thread regarding this very topic, and confirmed that specifying 70 as a minimum grade was definitely a thing for bulk submitters.
Not sure how I'll ever find that post, but I am very certain of this. Because I was offered the opportunity to do it ATS with a 100 coin minimum, and there is no way our hosts would cede that business to the competition.
At the end of the day, while our hosts might be the gold standard for classic coins, moderns really are commodities. While some of us might be hung up on labels, dealers, especially bulk submitters, are in it for volume and money.
Absolutely no way NGC offers bulk submitters 70 minimums while PCGS does not. Period. No matter what they say on a public website geared towards retail submitters.
Actual bulk submitters are not getting instructions from a web page. And they are getting minimum 70 grades if they don't want to pay to have 69s slabbed. If not here, then definitely ATS.
@SaorAlba said:
Mine shipped today, two days after ordering. I've waited months before.
Same here. I usually keep my Mint boxes sealed but may have to open this one.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@SaorAlba said:
Mine shipped today, two days after ordering. I've waited months before.
Same here. I usually keep my Mint boxes sealed but may have to open this one.
I have to ask just for curiosity, don't mean to be judgemental. I know lots of people do this but why order them just to keep them sealed and not enjoy the coins?
And this directly from the PCGS webpage. Seems to be a contradiction as @MetroD also pointed out above.
I know. But it's BS. I am 99.9% sure someone from PCGS chimed in on another thread regarding this very topic, and confirmed that specifying 70 as a minimum grade was definitely a thing for bulk submitters.
Not sure how I'll ever find that post, but I am very certain of this. Because I was offered the opportunity to do it ATS with a 100 coin minimum, and there is no way our hosts would cede that business to the competition.
At the end of the day, while our hosts might be the gold standard for classic coins, moderns really are commodities. While some of us might be hung up on labels, dealers, especially bulk submitters, are in it for volume and money.
Absolutely no way NGC offers bulk submitters 70 minimums while PCGS does not. Period. No matter what they say on a public website geared towards retail submitters.
Actual bulk submitters are not getting instructions from a web page. And they are getting minimum 70 grades if they don't want to pay to have 69s slabbed. If not here, then definitely ATS.
I have no personal experience with the PCGS "bulk submissions" program, as a dealer or a CC member. So, I am not sure what they actually do. Just sharing the policy that they have posted publicly.
@1madman made a point about "dealer" versus "bulk submitter". Interestingly, the public "bulk submissions" page includes a link to an agreement that explicitly indicates it is for CC members. There is no mention of "dealers".
You are right about PCGS 'weighing in' on the topic. I included a link in my last post. Here it is again. I think this MIGHT be the post you are remembering.
And this directly from the PCGS webpage. Seems to be a contradiction as @MetroD also pointed out above.
I know. But it's BS. I am 99.9% sure someone from PCGS chimed in on another thread regarding this very topic, and confirmed that specifying 70 as a minimum grade was definitely a thing for bulk submitters.
Not sure how I'll ever find that post, but I am very certain of this. Because I was offered the opportunity to do it ATS with a 100 coin minimum, and there is no way our hosts would cede that business to the competition.
At the end of the day, while our hosts might be the gold standard for classic coins, moderns really are commodities. While some of us might be hung up on labels, dealers, especially bulk submitters, are in it for volume and money.
Absolutely no way NGC offers bulk submitters 70 minimums while PCGS does not. Period. No matter what they say on a public website geared towards retail submitters.
Actual bulk submitters are not getting instructions from a web page. And they are getting minimum 70 grades if they don't want to pay to have 69s slabbed. If not here, then definitely ATS.
I have no personal experience with the PCGS "bulk submissions" program, as a dealer or a CC member. So, I am not sure what they actually do. Just sharing the policy that they have posted publicly.
@1madman made a point about "dealer" versus "bulk submitter". Interestingly, the public "bulk submissions" page includes a link to an agreement that explicitly indicates it is for CC members. There is no mention of "dealers".
You are right about PCGS 'weighing in' on the topic. I included a link in my last post. Here it is again. I think this MIGHT be the post you are remembering.
B-I-N-G-O!!!!!! EXCELLENT memory. That's it, and I never would have been able to find it!!!
Anyway, we really don't need to get lost in the weeds, worrying about details of their policy. The only thing that is important for us is that they do not actually discriminate against retail submitters when it comes to the actual grading. Pop reports that make it appear as though they do are nothing more than a result of the fact that some dealer/bulk submission 69s never make it to the pop report.
@cheezhed said:
An interesting ebay listing observation: Not one sealed box for sale or sold. It seems everyone is opening to see if they win the lottery.
I see sold sealed listings:
And listings for currently for sale:
Just not very many compared to typical Mint releases.
@SaorAlba said:
Mine shipped today, two days after ordering. I've waited months before.
Same here. I usually keep my Mint boxes sealed but may have to open this one.
I have to ask just for curiosity, don't mean to be judgemental. I know lots of people do this but why order them just to keep them sealed and not enjoy the coins?
(This medal is my first direct US Mint order)
I can always open the boxes at any time (and sometimes do). I also collect vintage unopened baseball packs and never have the urge to open those packs at all. It's my preferred method of collecting.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Only bulk submitters can do that. However, bulk submitters are also a large percentage of first strike coins.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
At this early stage, this indicates a good chance that less than half of the medals submitted by the public for grading will be 70's.
Actually, they do. Bulk submitters always have the option of specifying a minimum grade of 70, regardless of what they have placed on the label.
And this directly from the PCGS webpage. Seems to be a contradiction as @MetroD also pointed out above.
There are 2 different "bulk" submitters. We should probably use a different term. The truly high volume submitters who get special terms are not the same as the website "bulk submission". The terms they get are not publicly disclosed.
Got to admit it’s been a long time (since the mint screwed up the dollars) that there was any interest in a mint product or you don’t have to admit. I’m enjoying it but I’m retired my bar is set low.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business from the yous and Is of the world, who would undoubtedly be taking this business ATS if PCGS doesn't want it.
It would just surprise me if that was actually happening, given how competitive this space is, and how commoditized grading moderns has become (even CACG is not too fancy to play in the space).
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business to the yous and Is of the world.
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business to the yous and Is of the world.
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
Yup. I saw someone doing it at a show, and asked about it. This is the reason the Big Boys can sell things like the Morgan and Peace Dollars so inexpensively. It was $8 per coin, with show attribution on the label, and no charge for anything not graded, with a minimum submission of 100 coins.
Just keep in mind, this is not for retail, given the numbers involved. It's for dealers, vest pocket or otherwise. Because, with the Morgan and Peace Dollars, for example, last year you were talking about a minimum investment of $7600 for the coins, and then another $800 plus shipping for the grading.
The 70 grade through rate was more like 70% than 40%, so yeah, you save a little on the grading, but not a ton. For $8, there is little reason not to get the 69s slabbed. At least for little guys playing in the space. For the Big Boys who just don't want the 69s, the $8 times thousands does start to add up, so they just take the coins back and sell them raw when slabbed 69s can't be sold for a premium.
I’m assuming for how limited time they are available each morning that these are still fresh coins from cancellations and not returns that have been picked through yet
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business to the yous and Is of the world.
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
They usually charge a nominal evaluation charge for coins that don't meet the minimum.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business from the yous and Is of the world, who would undoubtedly be taking this business ATS if PCGS doesn't want it.
It would just surprise me if that was actually happening, given how competitive this space is, and how commoditized grading moderns has become (even CACG is not too fancy to play in the space).
In the past, that was true for both NGC and PCGS. If NGC is now allowing those privileges to everyone, that is new... and interesting. I don't know if PCGS will follow suit but we can ask.
You have already recalled this discussion from last year when PCGS confirmed on the forum that there were "super secret" terms available to certain high volume customers. That's actually the first time I've ever seen it publicly admitted. The only reason I even knew before then is because I know about couple of high volume submitters.
@Dirt94 said:
I’m assuming for how limited time they are available each morning that these are still fresh coins from cancellations and not returns that have been picked through yet
I believe that is correct. Orders placed this week should all be "fresh" product.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business to the yous and Is of the world.
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
They usually charge a nominal evaluation charge for coins that don't meet the minimum.
Not NGC. At least not last year. What would be a "nominal evaluation charge" when the whole grading and slabbing fee is only $7? I'm pretty sure what you are talking about are the one-offs, where the fee is much higher, and they allow you to specify a minimum and have the coin returned unslabbed if you don't hit the minimum grade.
With a bulk submission, the grading fee is really nominal in the first place. Allowing you to specify a 70 minimum, and then charging something like $5 to return the coin ungraded really would defeat the purpose of allowing you to specify the minimum in the first place.
All I know is that is not the deal I was quoted last year at NGC. It was $8 per coin, with no charge for coins that did not meet the minimum.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business from the yous and Is of the world, who would undoubtedly be taking this business ATS if PCGS doesn't want it.
It would just surprise me if that was actually happening, given how competitive this space is, and how commoditized grading moderns has become (even CACG is not too fancy to play in the space).
In the past, that was true for both NGC and PCGS. If NGC is now allowing those privileges to everyone, that is new... and interesting. I don't know if PCGS will follow suit but we can ask.
You have already recalled this discussion from last year when PCGS confirmed on the forum that there were "super secret" terms available to certain high volume customers. That's actually the first time I've ever seen it publicly admitted. The only reason I even knew before then is because I know about couple of high volume submitters.
Yup. But it was obvious from the pop reports. If they did not admit it, the alternative would be even more nefarious -- that dealer submissions are graded to a different standard than retail submissions.
@Dirt94 said:
I’m assuming for how limited time they are available each morning that these are still fresh coins from cancellations and not returns that have been picked through yet
That's a fair assumption, but no one really knows for sure. Among other reasons, they are already in people's hands, and you don't know exactly when what you buy now will be shipped.
If I was buying now, I'd be doing so because I want to keep examples without privys, or because I can still flip them for a profit. Not because I think I might get a privy. That chance was small to begin with, and will be smaller still every day, until it entirely disappears in the very near future.
@Goldminers said:
The first strike pop numbers are usually more indicative of minting quality because they do not have the option of saying only grade 70's, like the advanced relief dealers can do, if they choose.
Any dealer can specify for a min grade 70 in any label (first strike, advance release, first day, regular blue label, etc). Don’t fool yourself thinking first strike 70 pop reports aren’t skewed, because they are.
My mistake. I thought only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. I guess that is no longer the case.
However, my point about lower quality is still valid. There could have been many more medals submitted than were graded 70, because there were some rejected that did not meet the minimum grade of 70. Since there are more 69's listed in First Strike, than 70's graded, it means an even larger percentage of medals are lower quality than 70 than those populations indicate.
Also, the 74 base numbers are all 69's. That is unusual.
Yes, only bulk submitters could specify a minimum grade of 70. But, anyone can be a bulk submitter. Not just dealers. You and I could as well, as long as we meet the volume requirement. Typically 100 or so. Not in total, but per individual coin/medal.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business to the yous and Is of the world.
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
They usually charge a nominal evaluation charge for coins that don't meet the minimum.
Not NGC. At least not last year. What would be a "nominal evaluation charge" when the whole grading and slabbing fee is only $7? I'm pretty sure what you are talking about are the one-offs, where the fee is much higher, and they allow you to specify a minimum and have the coin returned unslabbed if you don't hit the minimum grade.
With a bulk submission, the grading fee is really nominal in the first place. Allowing you to specify a 70 minimum, and then charging something like $5 to return the coin ungraded really would defeat the purpose of allowing you to specify the minimum in the first place.
All I know is that is not the deal I was quoted last year at NGC. It was $8 per coin, with no charge for coins that did not meet the minimum.
Yes. I was addressing the question about cost for minimum grade submission.
@Bullsitter said:
In the wee hours of the morning when trying to snag one and the RED ADD TO CART stays red after 15 seconds those will be returns.....
I would imagine the possibility of returns increases each day after the initial release date. If I was shopping for sealed boxes, which I am not, I would require first day of purchase, only.
Too early for returns. I would say a week to a week and a half beyond initial recipt would be a good guideline.
Example: if received today - repack and resend to USM (figure 3 to 5 days mail time) and the 3rd pty action to unpack and record and put it back inline for sale has to be about 3 to 5 days as well.
Comments
It seems authentic in hand, they were faithful to the original. In fact the modern versions of old designs since lets say 2006 beginning under Moy tend to be more faithful than the period from the 1990s until Moy.
Looks like the flipping has started on ebay with several in hand listings.
An interesting ebay listing observation: Not one sealed box for sale or sold. It seems everyone is opening to see if they win the lottery.
OH NO. They accidentally packed boxes of 10 privy coins. Maybe yours was one of them.
Yup that could be the defining result of this release.....affordable Mint lotteries generate excitement.
Make sure we’re not thinking that a “dealer” is the same thing as a “bulk submitter”. These are 2 different things. A dealer can submit in bulk, but a bulk submitter is not necessarily a dealer.
I’m not a dealer, but I can submit in bulk, and I cannot specify a min grade 70.
No one listens to me not even my dog..
What'd he say?
If anyone is curious to watch aftermarket bids:
Non-Privy @ $175 each:
https://www.collectpure.com/marketplace/product/230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-silver-medal-24yh0081
Privy @ $3,000 each:
https://www.collectpure.com/marketplace/product/230th-anniversary-flowing-hair-silver-medal-230-privy-mark-24yh0082
Looks like people are finding privies in various groups. Congrats on the hunt.
No, not meant for you specifically, just a pontification, enjoy your posts. Say hey to your dog for me.
Mine shipped today, two days after ordering. I've waited months before.
I know. But it's BS. I am 99.9% sure someone from PCGS chimed in on another thread regarding this very topic, and confirmed that specifying 70 as a minimum grade was definitely a thing for bulk submitters.
Not sure how I'll ever find that post, but I am very certain of this. Because I was offered the opportunity to do it ATS with a 100 coin minimum, and there is no way our hosts would cede that business to the competition.
At the end of the day, while our hosts might be the gold standard for classic coins, moderns really are commodities. While some of us might be hung up on labels, dealers, especially bulk submitters, are in it for volume and money.
Absolutely no way NGC offers bulk submitters 70 minimums while PCGS does not. Period. No matter what they say on a public website geared towards retail submitters.
Actual bulk submitters are not getting instructions from a web page. And they are getting minimum 70 grades if they don't want to pay to have 69s slabbed. If not here, then definitely ATS.
Same here. I usually keep my Mint boxes sealed but may have to open this one.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have to ask just for curiosity, don't mean to be judgemental. I know lots of people do this but why order them just to keep them sealed and not enjoy the coins?
(This medal is my first direct US Mint order)
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Mine was shipped, I didn't see when it was shipped. It should arrive Saturday according to tracking.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
I have no personal experience with the PCGS "bulk submissions" program, as a dealer or a CC member. So, I am not sure what they actually do. Just sharing the policy that they have posted publicly.
@1madman made a point about "dealer" versus "bulk submitter". Interestingly, the public "bulk submissions" page includes a link to an agreement that explicitly indicates it is for CC members. There is no mention of "dealers".
You are right about PCGS 'weighing in' on the topic. I included a link in my last post. Here it is again. I think this MIGHT be the post you are remembering.
B-I-N-G-O!!!!!! EXCELLENT memory. That's it, and I never would have been able to find it!!!
Anyway, we really don't need to get lost in the weeds, worrying about details of their policy. The only thing that is important for us is that they do not actually discriminate against retail submitters when it comes to the actual grading. Pop reports that make it appear as though they do are nothing more than a result of the fact that some dealer/bulk submission 69s never make it to the pop report.
To my eyes these look far better than the recent Peace and Morgans.
Edit: smaller images
Mine shipped and is showing Saturday 19th for delivery.
Both my orders have shipped. First day's order is scheduled Saturday. Second day's order Mon or Tues.
I see sold sealed listings:
And listings for currently for sale:
Just not very many compared to typical Mint releases.
Tim
Edited for grammar
I can always open the boxes at any time (and sometimes do). I also collect vintage unopened baseball packs and never have the urge to open those packs at all. It's my preferred method of collecting.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Don't forget ANACS is in the game too....................
Patriotic Mint
Totally missed the boat on this one, thought it was today, what a dope. Good luck to all those that got it in.
Only bulk submitters can do that. However, bulk submitters are also a large percentage of first strike coins.
This is not correct. You can submit in bulk, but the true bulk submitters who get special privileges are in a whole other league submitting thousands of coins per year. You and I cannot get those $7 submissions and minimum 70 privileges.
There are 2 different "bulk" submitters. We should probably use a different term. The truly high volume submitters who get special terms are not the same as the website "bulk submission". The terms they get are not publicly disclosed.
Thanks for the additional clarification, @jmlanzaf. Your explanation is closer to what I remembered from past discussions on this issue.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Got to admit it’s been a long time (since the mint screwed up the dollars) that there was any interest in a mint product or you don’t have to admit. I’m enjoying it but I’m retired my bar is set low.
I cannot speak with authority on PCGS, so will accept what you are saying. But I can say that I was offered $8 submissions with minimum 70 privileges ATS last year, with a minimum quantity of 100 per line item.
Not thousands of coins, per year or otherwise. If PCGS does not do the same, they are losing a ton of business from the yous and Is of the world, who would undoubtedly be taking this business ATS if PCGS doesn't want it.
It would just surprise me if that was actually happening, given how competitive this space is, and how commoditized grading moderns has become (even CACG is not too fancy to play in the space).
I'm curious, does that include designations like Early Release? Does this offer come from a PCGS or NGC sales rep? I assume if you contact normal customer service you're not getting this deal.
And for the example you mentioned, $8 minimum for 100 coins evaluated/graded ($8x100)? Or does that mean $8 per MS/PR70 ($8x40 if 40% are 70's)?
Yup. I saw someone doing it at a show, and asked about it. This is the reason the Big Boys can sell things like the Morgan and Peace Dollars so inexpensively. It was $8 per coin, with show attribution on the label, and no charge for anything not graded, with a minimum submission of 100 coins.
Just keep in mind, this is not for retail, given the numbers involved. It's for dealers, vest pocket or otherwise. Because, with the Morgan and Peace Dollars, for example, last year you were talking about a minimum investment of $7600 for the coins, and then another $800 plus shipping for the grading.
The 70 grade through rate was more like 70% than 40%, so yeah, you save a little on the grading, but not a ton. For $8, there is little reason not to get the 69s slabbed. At least for little guys playing in the space. For the Big Boys who just don't want the 69s, the $8 times thousands does start to add up, so they just take the coins back and sell them raw when slabbed 69s can't be sold for a premium.
Got one more
Up for less time today than yesterday.
Successful transactions with forum members commoncents05, dmarks, Coinscratch, Bullsitter, DCW, TwoSides2aCoin, Namvet69 (facilitated for 3rd party), Tetromibi, ProfLizMay, MASSU2, MWallace, Bruce7789, Twobitcollector, 78saen, U1chicago, Rob41281
Me too.
I’m assuming for how limited time they are available each morning that these are still fresh coins from cancellations and not returns that have been picked through yet
I got 5 yesterday morning and 5 more today.
New Pops Report as of October 18, 2024...........
591 new non-privies graded......21.7% graded MS69, way down from the mid 30's a couple days ago.
No new privies graded.....they account for 1.14% of the total population.
David Hall has an FH label now? 😁
They usually charge a nominal evaluation charge for coins that don't meet the minimum.
In the past, that was true for both NGC and PCGS. If NGC is now allowing those privileges to everyone, that is new... and interesting. I don't know if PCGS will follow suit but we can ask.
You have already recalled this discussion from last year when PCGS confirmed on the forum that there were "super secret" terms available to certain high volume customers. That's actually the first time I've ever seen it publicly admitted. The only reason I even knew before then is because I know about couple of high volume submitters.
I believe that is correct. Orders placed this week should all be "fresh" product.
Not NGC. At least not last year. What would be a "nominal evaluation charge" when the whole grading and slabbing fee is only $7? I'm pretty sure what you are talking about are the one-offs, where the fee is much higher, and they allow you to specify a minimum and have the coin returned unslabbed if you don't hit the minimum grade.
With a bulk submission, the grading fee is really nominal in the first place. Allowing you to specify a 70 minimum, and then charging something like $5 to return the coin ungraded really would defeat the purpose of allowing you to specify the minimum in the first place.
All I know is that is not the deal I was quoted last year at NGC. It was $8 per coin, with no charge for coins that did not meet the minimum.
Yup. But it was obvious from the pop reports. If they did not admit it, the alternative would be even more nefarious -- that dealer submissions are graded to a different standard than retail submissions.
That's a fair assumption, but no one really knows for sure. Among other reasons, they are already in people's hands, and you don't know exactly when what you buy now will be shipped.
If I was buying now, I'd be doing so because I want to keep examples without privys, or because I can still flip them for a profit. Not because I think I might get a privy. That chance was small to begin with, and will be smaller still every day, until it entirely disappears in the very near future.
Yes. I was addressing the question about cost for minimum grade submission.
In the wee hours of the morning when trying to snag one and the RED ADD TO CART stays red after 15 seconds those will be returns.....
My thoughts exactly!
How will you know if you have received a "return"? Does the mint reseal the packages?
Well, I got the FH MEDAL today. The Privy and signed COA were nor there. Oh well some one else has a chance now. Undecided if I send it to a TPG.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I would imagine the possibility of returns increases each day after the initial release date. If I was shopping for sealed boxes, which I am not, I would require first day of purchase, only.
Too early for returns. I would say a week to a week and a half beyond initial recipt would be a good guideline.
Example: if received today - repack and resend to USM (figure 3 to 5 days mail time) and the 3rd pty action to unpack and record and put it back inline for sale has to be about 3 to 5 days as well.