@dcarr said:
One thing that I have wondered about these coins is why are they not DCAM or even CAM ?
If only a few were struck from that obverse die then, by definition, they must be an early die state.
Early die state proofs of this era typically have frosted devices (more frosted than this coin).
So is this perhaps a type of "unfinished" proof die or is something else going on ?
Go look at 100 random 1975-S Proof dimes and then explain to me how the two “No S” pieces differ in appearance from the average appearance of the 100 pieces.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@wondercoin said: @wondercoin said:
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Here are some closeups from TrueView high rez images...........does this help?
The more I look at this thing up close, the more I think its an overstrike, but does anyone have more pictures of proof coins struck on non-proof planchets?
@wondercoin said: @wondercoin said:
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Here are some closeups from TrueView high rez images...........does this help?
That top picture looks to have a thin strike through at the base of the flame trailing down and to the right. The larger area on the flame itself may be a larger strike through that was not as apparent when the coin was newish, but which has toned with age. I'm really not sure.
Anybody have a clipping of the original Coin World article? I am curious how the flame looks there.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The more I look at this thing up close, the more I think its an overstrike, but does anyone have more pictures of proof coins struck on non-proof planchets?
This picture shows more of that thin strike through at the base of the flame trailing out into the field down and to the right.
I think that is a strike through on the flame. I do not think the coin is an overstrike.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Thank you. Definitely there in the old photo. I guess I just did not notice that back in 1978.
Still leaning towards a strike through.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It really does not matter at all considering the rarity, but is everyone on board with the 68cac grade? Looking at some of the small pots and other inty little defects, It doesn't scream 68 to me. I have no knowledge of how these are graded, so Im just curious.
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
Geesh...
oh wow, thanks for clarifying that with such supreme authority. Didn't realize I was speaking to someone who'd already taken an XRF imager to the entire NNC! Or are you just claiming to have personally been present at the minting of every specimen ever minted? You can't prove a negative. When you look at the red spot on the ear of the other 75 no S dime do you really think that looks like toning?
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
Geesh...
oh wow, thanks for clarifying that with such supreme authority. Didn't realize I was speaking to someone who'd already taken an XRF imager to the entire NNC! Or are you just claiming to have personally been present at the minting of every specimen ever minted? You can't prove a negative. When you look at the red spot on the ear of the other 75 no S dime do you really think that looks like toning?
>
It would be in Mint records. It is not. The burden of proof would be on you for making an affirmative statement that runs counter to the historical record.
Personally, I think it is struck through alien semen. Apparently, by your logic, you can't prove that it isn't.... 😏
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
Geesh...
oh wow, thanks for clarifying that with such supreme authority. Didn't realize I was speaking to someone who'd already taken an XRF imager to the entire NNC! Or are you just claiming to have personally been present at the minting of every specimen ever minted? You can't prove a negative. When you look at the red spot on the ear of the other 75 no S dime do you really think that looks like toning?
Further, no one would ever use copper as a sacrificial anode on a copper-nickel coin. You would have to use something like magnesium which is more reactive than the metal you are trying to protect.
We all know about XRF, I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove. I also don't need the NNC. This was a standard 1975 proof set. If what you say is true, every 1975 proof dime would have a (useless) copper anode struck into it.
I think the rub or whatever it is has a big impact on grade. Should it be a 68 with that spot?
I do see little things here and there but what do I know.
Coins like this seem so risky to me.
What if several more appear. Wouldn't it knock the price down significantly?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
@Morgan13 said:
I think the rub or whatever it is has a big impact on grade. Should it be a 68 with that spot?
I do see little things here and there but what do I know.
Coins like this seem so risky to me.
What if several more appear. Wouldn't it knock the price down significantly?
None have ever appeared since the first find. So, what are the odds?
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
Geesh...
oh wow, thanks for clarifying that with such supreme authority. Didn't realize I was speaking to someone who'd already taken an XRF imager to the entire NNC! Or are you just claiming to have personally been present at the minting of every specimen ever minted? You can't prove a negative. When you look at the red spot on the ear of the other 75 no S dime do you really think that looks like toning?
>
It would be in Mint records. It is not. The burden of proof would be on you for making an affirmative statement that runs counter to the historical record.
Personally, I think it is struck through alien semen. Apparently, by your logic, you can't prove that it isn't.... 😏
Keep it appropriate for protégés of all ages, please.
I don't think the burden of proof falls on anyone. I'm not making a claim, I'm speculating and suggesting a test. We all know about XRF tests but I've never seen anyone do XRF imaging on coins. Ironic to mention the lack of mint records when there is no record of the coin the thread is about. Plug coins hold a special place in numismatics. I suspect there are intentionally struck through coins with various types of metal shavings.
(joking of course that "alien" is obviously paper mache and random animal bones)
back on topic though, I simply can't believe this dime was the result of forgetting to punch the mint mark. That doesn't explain all the flaws in the planchet. I went in photoshop and messed with the levels trying to see if there was anything that would confirm my suspicion that its an overstrike and maybe I'm just seeing things but it really look like there's a star on the temple. Anyone else see it?
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I don't think the burden of proof falls on anyone. I'm not making a claim, I'm speculating and suggesting a test. We all know about XRF tests but I've never seen anyone do XRF imaging on coins. Ironic to mention the lack of mint records when there is no record of the coin the thread is about. Plug coins hold a special place in numismatics. I suspect there are intentionally struck through coins with various types of metal shavings.
(joking of course that "alien" is obviously paper mache and random animal bones)
back on topic though, I simply can't believe this dime was the result of forgetting to punch the mint mark. That doesn't explain all the flaws in the planchet. I went in photoshop and messed with the levels trying to see if there was anything that would confirm my suspicion that its an overstrike and maybe I'm just seeing things but it really look like there's a star on the cheek. Anyone else see it?
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I don't think the burden of proof falls on anyone. I'm not making a claim, I'm speculating and suggesting a test. We all know about XRF tests but I've never seen anyone do XRF imaging on coins. Ironic to mention the lack of mint records when there is no record of the coin the thread is about. Plug coins hold a special place in numismatics. I suspect there are intentionally struck through coins with various types of metal shavings.
(joking of course that "alien" is obviously paper mache and random animal bones)
back on topic though, I simply can't believe this dime was the result of forgetting to punch the mint mark. That doesn't explain all the flaws in the planchet. I went in photoshop and messed with the levels trying to see if there was anything that would confirm my suspicion that its an overstrike and maybe I'm just seeing things but it really look like there's a star on the cheek. Anyone else see it?
Pareidolia
Agreed, there’s no star there.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I don't think the burden of proof falls on anyone. I'm not making a claim, I'm speculating and suggesting a test. We all know about XRF tests but I've never seen anyone do XRF imaging on coins. Ironic to mention the lack of mint records when there is no record of the coin the thread is about. Plug coins hold a special place in numismatics. I suspect there are intentionally struck through coins with various types of metal shavings.
(joking of course that "alien" is obviously paper mache and random animal bones)
back on topic though, I simply can't believe this dime was the result of forgetting to punch the mint mark. That doesn't explain all the flaws in the planchet. I went in photoshop and messed with the levels trying to see if there was anything that would confirm my suspicion that its an overstrike and maybe I'm just seeing things but it really look like there's a star on the cheek. Anyone else see it?
San Francsico Mint from 1965 thru 1981 created some amazing striking errors.
So, concerning the these two No S , just one family receives two sets from a very leaky Mint.
Reminds me of the one guy who owned all the known 1958 Double Die Cents who was coincidentally was an ex Philly Mint employee in 1950's:
Charles or Chas Ludovico, RIP
@mr1931S said:
Never has there been so much fuss about a coin with no mintmark.
Harsche.
Not the most exciting error. I like the established 1955 double die, 1942/1, or 1918/7 S Nickel and quarter for huge numbers. Overpriced in my opinion.
For me I am buying rare gold and gem type coins for the money that this coin will achieve even though the pop is 2. Esoteric coin.
Or give me a gem 1969 S double die cent etc
@mr1931S said:
Never has there been so much fuss about a coin with no mintmark.
Harsche.
Not the most exciting error. I like the established 1955 double die, 1942/1, or 1918/7 S Nickel and quarter for huge numbers. Overpriced in my opinion.
For me I am buying rare gold and gem type coins for the money that this coin will achieve even though the pop is 2. Esoteric coin.
Or give me a gem 1969 S double die cent etc
@mr1931S said:
Never has there been so much fuss about a coin with no mintmark.
Harsche.
Not the most exciting error. I like the established 1955 double die, 1942/1, or 1918/7 S Nickel and quarter for huge numbers. Overpriced in my opinion.
For me I am buying rare gold and gem type coins for the money that this coin will achieve even though the pop is 2. Esoteric coin.
Or give me a gem 1969 S double die cent etc
People buying coins at that level do not return $50 coins on eBay because they are afraid they won't CAC.
@mr1931S said:
Never has there been so much fuss about a coin with no mintmark.
Harsche.
Not the most exciting error. I like the established 1955 double die, 1942/1, or 1918/7 S Nickel and quarter for huge numbers. Overpriced in my opinion.
For me I am buying rare gold and gem type coins for the money that this coin will achieve even though the pop is 2. Esoteric coin.
Or give me a gem 1969 S double die cent etc
People buying coins at that level do not return $50 coins on eBay because they are afraid they won't CAC.
Nothing to do with the opinion I stated. Debate the merits of my statement. Don’t know why you need to reply with a personal insult. Childish
I suggest that everybody take a deep breath and let it out then go pour yourself a cup of coffee and have a piece of pie and relax.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Jacques_Loungecoque said:
Sand bagging? If one did have more than one of anything exceedingly rare, the only way to get the best money out of them is to slow roll their intro. You can’t even get them slabbed together so as to not tip off via the census. That’s not unethical, that’s smart. Anyone with even a decent familiarity with this field knows populations can change at any time.
so to extend the ethical hypothetical... if someone else is sitting on one or more of these now - watching as the other two sold as 2-knowns - would that provoke the forum's ire?
@Mr Lindy said:
San Francsico Mint from 1965 thru 1981 created some amazing striking errors.
So, concerning the these two No S , just one family receives two sets from a very leaky Mint.
Reminds me of the one guy who owned all the known 1958 Double Die Cents who was coincidentally was an ex Philly Mint employee in 1950's:
Charles or Chas Ludovico, RIP
in a numismatically dystopian future, the government goes around trying to confiscate impossible items of this era, I wonder if seller wanted to wait to make sure the first one sold without incident? what goes through your head if you have something really rare like this and you watch the (imho unfair and unjust) Langbord drama? I wonder what the experts who are closer to this stuff have heard is still out there under the radar?
Here is the complete provenance from Mint Error News on the proof no S Ike Dollar:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
What if several more appear. Wouldn't it knock the price down significantly?
I could almost guarantee if I bought it, within a few weeks a hoard of 69/70DCAM no S’s would show up…….and they’d be giving the darned things away…LOL
Comments
Go look at 100 random 1975-S Proof dimes and then explain to me how the two “No S” pieces differ in appearance from the average appearance of the 100 pieces.
I've got a proof 1957 dime that I would sell for $5 or so. Transpose the 5 and the 7 in your mind and save a bundle of cash.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Transpose the 5 and 0 in your price and I'll pay 5 cents
Here are some closeups from TrueView high rez images...........does this help?
https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/32803312_47038928_Max.jpg
The more I look at this thing up close, the more I think its an overstrike, but does anyone have more pictures of proof coins struck on non-proof planchets?
That top picture looks to have a thin strike through at the base of the flame trailing down and to the right. The larger area on the flame itself may be a larger strike through that was not as apparent when the coin was newish, but which has toned with age. I'm really not sure.
Anybody have a clipping of the original Coin World article? I am curious how the flame looks there.
This picture shows more of that thin strike through at the base of the flame trailing out into the field down and to the right.
I think that is a strike through on the flame. I do not think the coin is an overstrike.
Wondercoin noted in a September 14th post that a photo of the 1978 Coin World article is incuded in the lot listing. Didn't realize it until then.
The image is clear enough to see there was a color change on the flame back then.
.
.
https://greatcollections.com/Coin/1655587/1975-Roosevelt-Dime-No-S-PCGS-Proof-67-Toned-with-Balance-of-Proof-Set-Documentation-The-Ruth-E-Discovery-Coin
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
From 1978....yup, it was there 46 years ago.
Great Collections stock photo....
Thank you. Definitely there in the old photo. I guess I just did not notice that back in 1978.
Still leaning towards a strike through.
TD
is that just toning or are we seeing struck through copper particles or exposed copper core around the flame?
I've seen coins and medals with intentional strike throughs of a more anodic metal to act as a sacrificial anode like on ships to keep the rest bright. Are there any US coins that we know that have that?
I mention it because the other of the 75 no-s also has a bright red spot on the ear. It doesn't really make sense to do that with copper on a clad coin since the edge is already exposed but maybe its some sort of tradition for special strikes?
It really does not matter at all considering the rarity, but is everyone on board with the 68cac grade? Looking at some of the small pots and other inty little defects, It doesn't scream 68 to me. I have no knowledge of how these are graded, so Im just curious.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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Latest bid with 29 days to go.
It is not a tradition. They do not embed sacrificial anodes.
Geesh...
THIS is why I loose my s... !
No proof, no pudding.
And get off my lawn.
oh wow, thanks for clarifying that with such supreme authority. Didn't realize I was speaking to someone who'd already taken an XRF imager to the entire NNC! Or are you just claiming to have personally been present at the minting of every specimen ever minted? You can't prove a negative. When you look at the red spot on the ear of the other 75 no S dime do you really think that looks like toning?
>
It would be in Mint records. It is not. The burden of proof would be on you for making an affirmative statement that runs counter to the historical record.
Personally, I think it is struck through alien semen. Apparently, by your logic, you can't prove that it isn't.... 😏
Further, no one would ever use copper as a sacrificial anode on a copper-nickel coin. You would have to use something like magnesium which is more reactive than the metal you are trying to protect.
We all know about XRF, I'm not sure what the video is supposed to prove. I also don't need the NNC. This was a standard 1975 proof set. If what you say is true, every 1975 proof dime would have a (useless) copper anode struck into it.
I think the rub or whatever it is has a big impact on grade. Should it be a 68 with that spot?
I do see little things here and there but what do I know.
Coins like this seem so risky to me.
What if several more appear. Wouldn't it knock the price down significantly?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
None have ever appeared since the first find. So, what are the odds?
@jmlanzaf I thought there were 2 known?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
There are. But they both were found by the same collector in their set of 5.
@jmlanzaf oh okay I get it. I myself don't see the big deal. To each their own.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
Keep it appropriate for protégés of all ages, please.
I don't think the burden of proof falls on anyone. I'm not making a claim, I'm speculating and suggesting a test. We all know about XRF tests but I've never seen anyone do XRF imaging on coins. Ironic to mention the lack of mint records when there is no record of the coin the thread is about. Plug coins hold a special place in numismatics. I suspect there are intentionally struck through coins with various types of metal shavings.
That scientist in Mexico said the alien bodies had osmium eggs, what metal would their sperm be?
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/aliens-displayed-in-mexico-are-from-a-single-skeleton
(joking of course that "alien" is obviously paper mache and random animal bones)
back on topic though, I simply can't believe this dime was the result of forgetting to punch the mint mark. That doesn't explain all the flaws in the planchet. I went in photoshop and messed with the levels trying to see if there was anything that would confirm my suspicion that its an overstrike and maybe I'm just seeing things but it really look like there's a star on the temple. Anyone else see it?
Can anyone find other examples of proof coins struck on unpolished planchets?
Pareidolia
Agreed, there’s no star there.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps a magnesium star to prevent corrosion?
Found accidentally on purpose?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Never has there been so much fuss about a coin with no mintmark.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
1913 liberty nickel.
1933 $20 gold
Etc...
San Francsico Mint from 1965 thru 1981 created some amazing striking errors.
So, concerning the these two No S , just one family receives two sets from a very leaky Mint.
Reminds me of the one guy who owned all the known 1958 Double Die Cents who was coincidentally was an ex Philly Mint employee in 1950's:
Charles or Chas Ludovico, RIP
Harsche.
$295000 bid - 4 weeks to go.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
Not the most exciting error. I like the established 1955 double die, 1942/1, or 1918/7 S Nickel and quarter for huge numbers. Overpriced in my opinion.
For me I am buying rare gold and gem type coins for the money that this coin will achieve even though the pop is 2. Esoteric coin.
Or give me a gem 1969 S double die cent etc
Totally harsche.
People buying coins at that level do not return $50 coins on eBay because they are afraid they won't CAC.
Nothing to do with the opinion I stated. Debate the merits of my statement. Don’t know why you need to reply with a personal insult. Childish
I suggest that everybody take a deep breath and let it out then go pour yourself a cup of coffee and have a piece of pie and relax.
Never has there been so much fuss about a modern coin with no mintmark.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
so to extend the ethical hypothetical... if someone else is sitting on one or more of these now - watching as the other two sold as 2-knowns - would that provoke the forum's ire?
in a numismatically dystopian future, the government goes around trying to confiscate impossible items of this era, I wonder if seller wanted to wait to make sure the first one sold without incident? what goes through your head if you have something really rare like this and you watch the (imho unfair and unjust) Langbord drama? I wonder what the experts who are closer to this stuff have heard is still out there under the radar?
If one or two more of these were to show how would the value be affected?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
It’s a dime. Oh what an ugly flame some torches bear.
>
1976 No S Proof Eisenhower Dollar, Type 2
https://pcgs.com/top100/coin4
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Here is the complete provenance from Mint Error News on the proof no S Ike Dollar:
I could almost guarantee if I bought it, within a few weeks a hoard of 69/70DCAM no S’s would show up…….and they’d be giving the darned things away…LOL