@oreville said:
I recall seeing the proof dime inside the 1970 proof set. I was so jealous that at 17 years of age that I could never receive such a wonderful proof set! LOL
Was happy to see my friend Wondercoin get involved in buying and selling the 1970 no S proof dime.
Could not happen to a nicer guy.
Looking at the photos its obviously a proof to me but the lack of cameo has me wondering what the story is. My understanding is that cameo fades as more coins are struck (if the die had cameo to begin with, but why wouldn't it?).
Can anyone explain or link to something that could teach me how to tell the difference between early/first strikes vs mid die life vs late stage?
Isn't it true that when testing something like a new technique for die preparation, that trial striking is run for the life of the die to measure how it performs (and the test strikes melted).
Is it possible the coin was left in the machine and when production began it was put into a proof set with normal coins, assuming it was struck at San Francisco. Do we know if it was struck at SF or Philly? I seem to recall reading the no S T2 Ike was made in Philly.
Variety vista lists obv/rev design changes, but does anyone know what years they changed the way they prepared proof dies cameo texture?
At the risk of repeating myself, this is an absolutely normal Proof coin for this year. The ONLY thing different is the fact that they forgot to punch a mint mark into the obverse die before they "Proofed" it.
The amount of die frosting is normal for a Proof coin of this year. Without looking it up, I believe that the deliberately heavier frosting on Proofs began in 1983.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Clackamas1 said:
Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.
No sand bagging here. When the current owner of the MS68 coin bought it he very well knew that this coin existed. because of the publicity of his purchase (from Mitch through me) we truly believed that if a 3rd or more existed there would be a high probability of it being discovered. IMHO I don't believe that a 1 point grade difference should reflect much of a value difference between the 2 existing coins.
Nick Cascio
Nick, thanks for clearing things up.
That's kind of funny. Everything was clear until you tried to make it muddy.
@wondercoin said:
Mark. Thank you for “calling out” the baseless assertion of a six year board member who should know better. But, the absurdity of the claim on its face is the fact that the seller who allegedly “sandbagged” the buyer to get $500k by claiming it was “Unique” posted an article on their own website the very week of the purchase from Heritage and subsequent sale to the private collector using Nick as his agent, and (as I recall) participated in an interview with Numismatic News for a story on the second sale (arranged by Donn Perlman) and had this to say in pertinent part (among other talking points on the two 1975 No S coins) a week after the Heritage auction:
‘’In 1975, these two sets were purchased by a lucky California collector who ordered five sets from the Mint. She noticed that two the Roosevelt Dimes in her sets lacked the “S” Mint Mark and eventually had the two coins certified by ANACS. Both of these proof sets were eventually sold to coin dealer Fred Vollmer, a specialist in No S proof coins. Vollmer eventually sold one of these sets to a collector from Ohio for $18,200, who later had the dime certified as PR66 by PCGS. It is believed that the coin still resides with this collector to this day.
The second set, containing the coin purchased here, was later sold by Vollmer to a private collector for $38,550 in 1980. From there it was passed to a dealer who consigned it to Stack’s Bowers in 2011, where it sold for a record $349,600. Up until the sale on September 6th, 2019, this PCGS-PR68 example has remained in the collection of the 2011 winning bidder. The 1975 proof No S Roosevelt Dime is the rarest of all "S"-Less modern coins -- behind only the unique 1976 proof No S Eisenhower Dollar.’’
Once again, anyone interested can read the Article in its entirety on Justin’s website (www.monstercoinmart.com). Of course, the “$18,200” coin discussed above is the GC sale coin.
Fred Volmer sounded me out for an offer on this specimen in 1979. I believe I couldda walked away with it for 20k but that was far too rich for my blood. I was able to get a couple "special" coins but they were both under $1. (each)
Volmer did a lot of work in moderns especially for that era. He found lots of no-S proof sets himself. Of course in those days nobody cared about quality and even Morgans would only get a 75% premium if they were nice Gems. The idea of "pop tops" would have eluded everyone. It still seems like some sort of dream.
Crazy thought but if the 1975 no S dime had NOT been a proof it would have been MORE valuable as a mint state dime than as a proof?? Had never heard of a mint state coin placed in a proof set. Unless I am mistaken.
I liked the 1975 no S dime more when it was still in the 1975 proof set package. More interesting to me then.
@oreville said:
Crazy thought but if the 1975 no S dime had NOT been a proof it would have been MORE valuable as a mint state dime than as a proof?? Had never heard of a mint state coin placed in a proof set. Unless I am mistaken.
I liked the 1975 no S dime more when it was still in the 1975 proof set package. More interesting to me then.
Sure. Someone has done this with all of the no-S sets.
A lot of the other pre-1975 no-S proof sets could be opened up with little or no damage to the plastic but this is far more difficult with the 1975 which has to almost be blasted open.
1975 dimes sometimes come exceedingly nice in the mint sets and can even be PL quite "often". A set could be assembled that would fool a cursory examination.
There were rumors that this switching was very common on the '66 and '67 sets but I've never seen one until recently someone had switched the '67 quarter for a nice BU. The irony is a BU is worth substantially more than the SMS today.
A 1975 Philly proof dime would be worth more than a No-S dime, probably. If such a thing existed it would just be mistaken for a third No-S dime.
Every day there are multiple circulated "Cheerios Dollars" of various years posted on eBay, because some people cannot understand what they just read.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Can anyone explain or link to something that could teach me how to tell the difference between early/first strikes vs mid die life vs late stage?
Proof dies are changed so frequently that the telltale signs of die wear (flow lines and mushiness) are usually hard to spot.
Isn't it true that when testing something like a new technique for die preparation, that trial striking is run for the life of the die to measure how it performs (and the test strikes melted).
I doubt this applies in every instance. Usually I believe that this is reserved for new coins, new designs. Modern dies strike more than a million coins so such extensive testing would be expensive.
Is it possible the coin was left in the machine and when production began it was put into a proof set with normal coins, assuming it was struck at San Francisco. Do we know if it was struck at SF or Philly? I seem to recall reading the no S T2 Ike was made in Philly.
No. Proof strikes are distinct from circulation issues. It's true that this distinction is lesser in some years than others but '75 dimes were quite distinct.
Variety vista lists obv/rev design changes, but does anyone know what years they changed the way they prepared proof dies cameo texture?
They made changes to the process almost every year after 1967. '74 to '77 sets are pretty similar.
Does the toning tell us anything?
Interestingly BU '75 dimes are highly prone to toning. This is probably irrelevant but perhaps it means the planchet was intended for a circulation strike.
Lots of questions about this enigmatic legend.
I think the real question is why are only two known. Likely this was caught very early and they believed they had recovered every specimen. Perhaps it was done accidently on purpose or intentionally. I think the best guess is they caught it early but then these originated in California, didn't they?
Interestingly BU '75 dimes are highly prone to toning. This is probably irrelevant but perhaps it means the planchet was intended for a circulation strike.
Perhaps someone with access to the proofing presses lacked access to the blanks so took a few with him.
@ianrussell said:
An update about the 1975 No S Dime in our auctions. The example in our auction is now CAC approved.
…..
1983 - Proof Dime
…..
It will be at the Tampa show next week at our table - and hopefully on TV as well - will share the video if that happens.
Ian
I’d love to get my 1983 No S dime checked out but I prefer to leave it in the proof set packaging with the entire set. Suggestions? Regards and see you next week! Karl
Expect people calling with their "rare" moderns, especially "gold" dollars and "silver" WWII cents...
"Omigosh! I have a few dimes with out the S in my pocket change hoard. Im rich! Already spended some my riches now just hafta sell them to those rich idiot coin clectors to cover it. They better not try ta rip me off."
Not a real comment, but a few are getting close (actually fewer than expected) in looking through some of the over 600 comments under that one article already in less than 12 hours.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
They just ran a local article on the news here. That means starting tomorrow, for the next few weeks, Ill be getting numerous calls from all the people saying they found one just like it. Ill have to explain that what they have is a Business strike from philly, some will still never believe me after explanation
@jdimmick said:
They just ran a local article on the news here. That means starting tomorrow, for the next few weeks, Ill be getting numerous calls from all the people saying they found one just like it. Ill have to explain that what they have is a Business strike from philly, some will still never believe me after explanation
It would be nice if the reporter showed a proof set and warned people not to get their hopes up if they find an S-less dime in pocket change.
TAMPA, Fla. - These days, some may wonder how much a dime is really worth. But, one dime coming to a Tampa coin show is worth a lot.
"It's already bid up to $250,000, and we expect it to sell for much more than that," said Ian Russell of Great Collections Certified Coin and Paper Money Auctions. "We're hoping it realizes over half a million dollars."
I was the highest bidder up to $256,000. That was my maximum amount as I wanted other coins and patterns more….not that there any negatives about the 1975 no S proof dimes. I very much prefer mint state coins to proof coins and my collection reflects that. 99% of my coins are mint state and 1% or even less are proofs.
‘’Get ready dealers, you’re about to crush countless dreams and delusions.’’
As previous owner of the finest known 1975 No S dime in PCGS-PR68 with the article on the coin having always been posted on Justin’s website (www.monstercoinmart.com) for the past 5 years, I have only received a handful of communications from folks thinking they found another No S dime. That compares to hundreds and hundreds of communications from folks who think they have found the second coin of the Unique 1976 “No S” Ike $1. So, I think over the years, novices can easily see (and research) that the dime can only be discovered in a proof set and quickly figure out they have not found the third example (that they originally thought they did).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
This is exactly what happened when my unique 1970S Proof Washington Quarter struck over a 1941 Canadian Quarter went "viral".
It was featured on AP News, Fox News, USA Today, London's Daily Mail, Coin Week, New York Post, Newsmax, NBC News, Numismatic News, Time Magazine and on Maria Bartiromo's TV show.
Even almost a decade later, people are still discovering them, listing them on ebay and calling their local coin dealer.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@telephoto1 said:
I've stopped counting the number of calls we've received from folks who "have that same coin". Had one already this morning in fact. Sigh.
Why not just refer people with a No S Dime to Ian @ GC? 😈
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Wondercoin.
This is the first of the two to get publicized, right? The one that came through Coin World in 1978?
I don’t remember that spot, but that was 46 years ago. Does it show up in the pictures published in 1978?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@telephoto1 said:
I've stopped counting the number of calls we've received from folks who "have that same coin". Had one already this morning in fact. Sigh.
Why not just refer people with a No S Dime to Ian @ GC? 😈
@wondercoin said:
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Wondercoin.
This is the first of the two to get publicized, right? The one that came through Coin World in 1978?
I don’t remember that spot, but that was 46 years ago. Does it show up in the pictures published in 1978?
————
Capt: I believe this coin is in the Coin World story and the pic of the coin also appears to show this situation in the flame. Have a look at the article (and the pic) that is part of the GC Lot info./description.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
Obvious typo.
Looking at the photos its obviously a proof to me but the lack of cameo has me wondering what the story is. My understanding is that cameo fades as more coins are struck (if the die had cameo to begin with, but why wouldn't it?).
Can anyone explain or link to something that could teach me how to tell the difference between early/first strikes vs mid die life vs late stage?
Isn't it true that when testing something like a new technique for die preparation, that trial striking is run for the life of the die to measure how it performs (and the test strikes melted).
Is it possible the coin was left in the machine and when production began it was put into a proof set with normal coins, assuming it was struck at San Francisco. Do we know if it was struck at SF or Philly? I seem to recall reading the no S T2 Ike was made in Philly.
Variety vista lists obv/rev design changes, but does anyone know what years they changed the way they prepared proof dies cameo texture?
Does the toning tell us anything?
Lots of questions about this enigmatic legend.
At the risk of repeating myself, this is an absolutely normal Proof coin for this year. The ONLY thing different is the fact that they forgot to punch a mint mark into the obverse die before they "Proofed" it.
The amount of die frosting is normal for a Proof coin of this year. Without looking it up, I believe that the deliberately heavier frosting on Proofs began in 1983.
That's kind of funny. Everything was clear until you tried to make it muddy.
Fred Volmer sounded me out for an offer on this specimen in 1979. I believe I couldda walked away with it for 20k but that was far too rich for my blood. I was able to get a couple "special" coins but they were both under $1. (each)
Volmer did a lot of work in moderns especially for that era. He found lots of no-S proof sets himself. Of course in those days nobody cared about quality and even Morgans would only get a 75% premium if they were nice Gems. The idea of "pop tops" would have eluded everyone. It still seems like some sort of dream.
Crazy thought but if the 1975 no S dime had NOT been a proof it would have been MORE valuable as a mint state dime than as a proof?? Had never heard of a mint state coin placed in a proof set. Unless I am mistaken.
I liked the 1975 no S dime more when it was still in the 1975 proof set package. More interesting to me then.
Sure. Someone has done this with all of the no-S sets.
A lot of the other pre-1975 no-S proof sets could be opened up with little or no damage to the plastic but this is far more difficult with the 1975 which has to almost be blasted open.
1975 dimes sometimes come exceedingly nice in the mint sets and can even be PL quite "often". A set could be assembled that would fool a cursory examination.
There were rumors that this switching was very common on the '66 and '67 sets but I've never seen one until recently someone had switched the '67 quarter for a nice BU. The irony is a BU is worth substantially more than the SMS today.
A 1975 Philly proof dime would be worth more than a No-S dime, probably. If such a thing existed it would just be mistaken for a third No-S dime.
Too much publicity is causing dreamers to fish
https://www.ebay.com/itm/375436213280?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=jcivnavyr3a&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=4eUie22RQbq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Every day there are multiple circulated "Cheerios Dollars" of various years posted on eBay, because some people cannot understand what they just read.
Proof dies are changed so frequently that the telltale signs of die wear (flow lines and mushiness) are usually hard to spot.
I doubt this applies in every instance. Usually I believe that this is reserved for new coins, new designs. Modern dies strike more than a million coins so such extensive testing would be expensive.
No. Proof strikes are distinct from circulation issues. It's true that this distinction is lesser in some years than others but '75 dimes were quite distinct.
They made changes to the process almost every year after 1967. '74 to '77 sets are pretty similar.
Interestingly BU '75 dimes are highly prone to toning. This is probably irrelevant but perhaps it means the planchet was intended for a circulation strike.
I think the real question is why are only two known. Likely this was caught very early and they believed they had recovered every specimen. Perhaps it was done accidently on purpose or intentionally. I think the best guess is they caught it early but then these originated in California, didn't they?
Perhaps someone with access to the proofing presses lacked access to the blanks so took a few with him.
…..
…..
I’d love to get my 1983 No S dime checked out but I prefer to leave it in the proof set packaging with the entire set. Suggestions? Regards and see you next week! Karl
Article came up on Yahoo today: https://www.yahoo.com/news/huge-payout-expected-rare-coin-040252524.html
Expect people calling with their "rare" moderns, especially "gold" dollars and "silver" WWII cents...
"Omigosh! I have a few dimes with out the S in my pocket change hoard. Im rich! Already spended some my riches now just hafta sell them to those rich idiot coin clectors to cover it. They better not try ta rip me off."
Not a real comment, but a few are getting close (actually fewer than expected) in looking through some of the over 600 comments under that one article already in less than 12 hours.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I think the scammers are the ones who are fishing
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
49 days to go......
TrueView Link
edited to add GreatPhoto image. Interesting to compare to the TrueView.
They just ran a local article on the news here. That means starting tomorrow, for the next few weeks, Ill be getting numerous calls from all the people saying they found one just like it. Ill have to explain that what they have is a Business strike from philly, some will still never believe me after explanation
It would be nice if the reporter showed a proof set and warned people not to get their hopes up if they find an S-less dime in pocket change.
Picking up steam going into Tampa coin show......
TAMPA, Fla. - These days, some may wonder how much a dime is really worth. But, one dime coming to a Tampa coin show is worth a lot.
"It's already bid up to $250,000, and we expect it to sell for much more than that," said Ian Russell of Great Collections Certified Coin and Paper Money Auctions. "We're hoping it realizes over half a million dollars."
Fox13 Tampa Bay-Ian Russell interviewed
More air time for Ian
I was the highest bidder up to $256,000. That was my maximum amount as I wanted other coins and patterns more….not that there any negatives about the 1975 no S proof dimes. I very much prefer mint state coins to proof coins and my collection reflects that. 99% of my coins are mint state and 1% or even less are proofs.
Up to $280k today - at this rate, Ian may have to hire a publicist!
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
hire armed guards instead
On the main page at Fox News today.
Get ready dealers, you’re about to crush countless dreams and delusions.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
i've got a whole roll of 1975 dimes with no mint mark
Do they have a mirror finish?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/365105887526
https://www.ebay.com/itm/315399601956
‘’Get ready dealers, you’re about to crush countless dreams and delusions.’’
As previous owner of the finest known 1975 No S dime in PCGS-PR68 with the article on the coin having always been posted on Justin’s website (www.monstercoinmart.com) for the past 5 years, I have only received a handful of communications from folks thinking they found another No S dime. That compares to hundreds and hundreds of communications from folks who think they have found the second coin of the Unique 1976 “No S” Ike $1. So, I think over the years, novices can easily see (and research) that the dime can only be discovered in a proof set and quickly figure out they have not found the third example (that they originally thought they did).
Wondercoin
This is exactly what happened when my unique 1970S Proof Washington Quarter struck over a 1941 Canadian Quarter went "viral".
It was featured on AP News, Fox News, USA Today, London's Daily Mail, Coin Week, New York Post, Newsmax, NBC News, Numismatic News, Time Magazine and on Maria Bartiromo's TV show.
Even almost a decade later, people are still discovering them, listing them on ebay and calling their local coin dealer.
Creeping up with 44 long days to go.
I've stopped counting the number of calls we've received from folks who "have that same coin". Had one already this morning in fact. Sigh.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Why not just refer people with a No S Dime to Ian @ GC? 😈
take a rolls of 1975 no s dimes to the show, take some proof 1975 s dime to the show. show and tell for the untrained
may as well take a fishbowl of no mint mark cents to the show and give them out to the untrained, include a few 2017-P cents on the table
Fruit Adventure flavor.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
GP or TV? Which is better?
obverse gp, reverse tv
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Wondercoin.
This is the first of the two to get publicized, right? The one that came through Coin World in 1978?
I don’t remember that spot, but that was 46 years ago. Does it show up in the pictures published in 1978?
I'd send them to Cougar.
@wondercoin said:
For those who have seen this coin in person already, what is the situation with the reverse flame area? Is that a planchet imperfection that shouldn’t “count” against the grade of the coin?
Wondercoin.
This is the first of the two to get publicized, right? The one that came through Coin World in 1978?
I don’t remember that spot, but that was 46 years ago. Does it show up in the pictures published in 1978?
————
Capt: I believe this coin is in the Coin World story and the pic of the coin also appears to show this situation in the flame. Have a look at the article (and the pic) that is part of the GC Lot info./description.
Wondercoin.