1975 Roosevelt Dime No S PCGS Proof-67 on GC

retirednow

A heck of story as well ... can look at MYCollection for Ian's posts

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1655587/1975-Roosevelt-Dime-No-S-PCGS-Proof-67-Toned-with-Balance-of-Proof-Set-Documentation-The-Ruth-E-Discovery-Coin

RichieURich

Well, that is big news! Thanks for posting it!

ianrussell

There will be a press release out about it in the next few days - CoinWorld is featuring it in their upcoming issue.

Exciting to handle this modern rarity.

• Ian

johnny9434

@ianrussell said:
There will be a press release out about it in the next few days - CoinWorld is featuring it in their upcoming issue.

Exciting to handle this modern rarity.

• Ian

Way cool 😎 👍

Seraph21

Wow, I can only dream of owning one. Definitely going to be watching that auction!

wondercoin

Congratulations to Ian for getting an opportunity to handle the second 1975 No S Dime. Since in this case, Ian has decided to provide a Lot description for the item, he should properly set out the provenance for the finest known example of this (currently) mintage 2 coin.

The PR68 coin was purchased at the Heritage Auction in 09/19 by Mitchell Spivack, Justin Spivack and Steve Heller jointly for the sum of $456,000. The coin was then resold approximately (5) days later that month by that trio to an avid Roosevelt Dime collector through his agent Nick Cascio for the sum of $516,000.

Full details of this purchase and sale of the finest known 1975 No S specimen can be read in an article appearing on the website of Monstercoinmart (Justin’s company) entitled: “RECORD-BREAKING 1975 PROOF NO S DIME
QUICKLY RE-SOLD FOR $516,000”. Ian is granted permission here to provide a link to Justin’s article in the lot description of the second 1975 No S dime he is currently auctioning off.

There are probably other amplifications/additions that should be added to the Lot description, but the pedigree information on the top coin was obviously a very important addition.

Good luck to everyone bidding on this very cool coin!

Wondercoin

JimTyler

I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

jmlanzaf

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

It's a fair question. There are a couple ways it could happen. Since I don't think it was polished off, the simplest way is they forgot to add the mint mark but caught the mistake early but missed the two coins that got through. Given they were proof sets, that means a somewhat lazy effort at QC.

A quick internet search does this was discussed in a 2019 Coinworld blog. And several sources include deliberate manufacture as a possibility. Since a lot of shenanigans went on in SF in the 1970s, that can't be ruled out.

JimTyler

@jmlanzaf said:

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

It's a fair question. There are a couple ways it could happen. Since I don't think it was polished off, the simplest way is they forgot to add the mint mark but caught the mistake early but missed the two coins that got through. Given they were proof sets, that means a somewhat lazy effort at QC.

A quick internet search does this was discussed in a 2019 Coinworld blog. And several sources include deliberate manufacture as a possibility. Since a lot of shenanigans went on in SF in the 1970s, that can't be ruled out.

I can’t buy deliberate manufacture, then send them out to a random buyer. The culprit would want them if he took a chance to make them or he did make some for himself and there are more out there. First possibility seems more plausible again missing just two is a tough sell. How many sealed boxes are still out there.

7Jaguars

Are you certain that was a "random" buyer? Seems like it though. I would be very nervous about putting out big money for this type of coin from this source (proof set) as even one, let alone two or three more would REALLy hurt values.

CaptHenway

I handled the discovery coin while I was at Coin World. Absolutely legit.

I like the idea that they made a bunch, noticed the error, and made a serious attempt to destroy them all but missed a couple. The Mint had been embarrassed by the earlier Proofs that got out without mint marks, and it tried to prevent Strike Three.

DCW

Very interesting variety, even if you're not into moderns.

JimTyler

@CaptHenway said:
I handled the discovery coin while I was at Coin World. Absolutely legit.

I like the idea that they made a bunch, noticed the error, and made a serious attempt to destroy them all but missed a couple. The Mint had been embarrassed by the earlier Proofs that got out without mint marks, and it tried to prevent Strike Three.

Or did they just missed a couple with many sealed sets out there.

Copperindian

Great story with a fantastic provenance (and a fabulous looking modern)!

jmlanzaf

@JimTyler said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

It's a fair question. There are a couple ways it could happen. Since I don't think it was polished off, the simplest way is they forgot to add the mint mark but caught the mistake early but missed the two coins that got through. Given they were proof sets, that means a somewhat lazy effort at QC.

A quick internet search does this was discussed in a 2019 Coinworld blog. And several sources include deliberate manufacture as a possibility. Since a lot of shenanigans went on in SF in the 1970s, that can't be ruled out.

I can’t buy deliberate manufacture, then send them out to a random buyer. The culprit would want them if he took a chance to make them or he did make some for himself and there are more out there. First possibility seems more plausible again missing just two is a tough sell. How many sealed boxes are still out there.

Wasn't only one of the two clearly found in a proof set?

ianrussell

@jmlanzaf said:

@JimTyler said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

It's a fair question. There are a couple ways it could happen. Since I don't think it was polished off, the simplest way is they forgot to add the mint mark but caught the mistake early but missed the two coins that got through. Given they were proof sets, that means a somewhat lazy effort at QC.

A quick internet search does this was discussed in a 2019 Coinworld blog. And several sources include deliberate manufacture as a possibility. Since a lot of shenanigans went on in SF in the 1970s, that can't be ruled out.

I can’t buy deliberate manufacture, then send them out to a random buyer. The culprit would want them if he took a chance to make them or he did make some for himself and there are more out there. First possibility seems more plausible again missing just two is a tough sell. How many sealed boxes are still out there.

Wasn't only one of the two clearly found in a proof set?

Both were found by the same person in California - both found in proof sets from an order of five proof sets. Two of the five had the missing S Dime.

It was very big news at the time - noting the 1978 CoinWorld article had a paid subscription list of 110,000 (amazing, right?), so everyone was busy checking their proof sets then.

• Ian

Jacques_Loungecoque

So, technically speaking, where do these fall, error or variety? Or something else altogether? Does the extremely low* mintage figure in to that distinction? Could they be a grease filled the mint mark situation?

knovak1976

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

I always wonder how someone just happens to find a cent or other coin that looks exactly like any other but seems to be way off in its weight and is a new discovery that sells for a boatload of money. I mean, out of a hundred of millions of cents how would one magically find that ‘rare’ one and unless they were a very knowledgeable collector even know about something like that? 🤔

seanq

I noticed that neither coin received any sort of cameo designation when graded. For those of you who have seen them in person, are they definitively proof strikes? Is it somehow possible that two fresh business strikes (from 3000 miles away) got mixed in with the proof mintage and placed into sets?

Sean Reynolds

Manifest_Destiny

Wow, I never would have thought the price was that high. 55 days to go, sheesh....

MFeld

@seanq said:
I noticed that neither coin received any sort of cameo designation when graded. For those of you who have seen them in person, are they definitively proof strikes? Is it somehow possible that two fresh business strikes (from 3000 miles away) got mixed in with the proof mintage and placed into sets?

Sean Reynolds

I saw the one that Heritage auctioned and it was an obvious Proof.

MFeld

@knovak1976 said:

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

I always wonder how someone just happens to find a cent or other coin that looks exactly like any other but seems to be way off in its weight and is a new discovery that sells for a boatload of money. I mean, out of a hundred of millions of cents how would one magically find that ‘rare’ one and unless they were a very knowledgeable collector even know about something like that? 🤔

There are a lot of people looking at coins. And it doesn’t require anything magical for some of them to notice that in one way or another, some of those coins look and/or feel different.

Manifest_Destiny

I remember when the 1990 no S cent was discovered. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that was the last proof error of this type.

JBK

@knovak1976 said:

@JimTyler said:
I don’t get it. How does only two coins get minted without mint marks. I don’t mean to imply anything I just can’t figure how this happens.

I always wonder how someone just happens to find a cent or other coin that looks exactly like any other but seems to be way off in its weight and is a new discovery that sells for a boatload of money. I mean, out of a hundred of millions of cents how would one magically find that ‘rare’ one and unless they were a very knowledgeable collector even know about something like that? 🤔

It happened to me.

I was searching through a box of new 2016 nickels and this one appeared (minus the slab):

A little knowledge and a ton of luck can have astounding results.

On the other hand, if that box of nickels had gone to a business then the rarity it contained might never have been identified, at least not before suffering the ravages of circulation and Walmart parking lots.

CaptHenway

As to the coin I saw at Coin World back in the 1970's:

I repeat, it is definitely, absolutely, positively a no question PROOF strike from a PROOFED die! It is not a business strike! No grease was harmed in the striking of that coin! Are we clear on this point?

TD

JBK

Here's a slight curveball. If, as some have suggested, the two known examples are not DCAM, that would imply that they were struck later in the die's life, which makes their existence all the more mysterious.

Did they discover the error in the die only after striking thousands of coins and then missed a couple later strikes when searching the coins to retrieve the S-less coins? 🤔

CaptHenway

@JBK said:
Here's a slight curveball. If, as some have suggested, the two known examples are not DCAM, that would imply that they were struck later in the die's life, which makes their existence all the more mysterious.

Did they discover the error in the die only after striking thousands of coins and then missed a couple later strikes when searching the coins to retrieve the S-less coins? 🤔

The frosting on the 1968-on Proofs was a lot more subtle than modern Proofs, and may not have survived even 50 coins (100 strikes). I don’t think the quality of the strike proves anything.

1madman

@CaptHenway said:
As to the coin I saw at Coin World back in the 1970's:

I repeat, it is definitely, absolutely, positively a no question PROOF strike from a PROOFED die! It is not a business strike! No grease was harmed in the striking of that coin! Are we clear on this point?

TD

Possibly the ambiguity is could it be a regular mint state planchet struck with proof dies, or a proof planchet struck with mint state dies?

Jacques_Loungecoque

@CaptHenway said:
As to the coin I saw at Coin World back in the 1970's:

I repeat, it is definitely, absolutely, positively a no question PROOF strike from a PROOFED die! It is not a business strike! No grease was harmed in the striking of that coin! Are we clear on this point?

TD

Your word is good enough for me.

CaptHenway

@1madman said:

@CaptHenway said:
As to the coin I saw at Coin World back in the 1970's:

I repeat, it is definitely, absolutely, positively a no question PROOF strike from a PROOFED die! It is not a business strike! No grease was harmed in the striking of that coin! Are we clear on this point?

TD

Possibly the ambiguity is could it be a regular mint state planchet struck with proof dies, or a proof planchet struck with mint state dies?

There is no ambiguity.

oreville

I recall seeing the proof dime inside the 1970 proof set. I was so jealous that at 17 years of age that I could never receive such a wonderful proof set! LOL

Was happy to see my friend Wondercoin get involved in buying and selling the 1970 no S proof dime.
Could not happen to a nicer guy.

MFeld

@oreville said:
I recall seeing the proof dime inside the 1970 proof set. I was so jealous that at 17 years of age that I could never receive such a wonderful proof set! LOL

Was happy to see my friend Wondercoin get involved in buying and selling the 1970 no S proof dime.
Could not happen to a nicer guy.

@wondercoin - 1975 No S

wondercoin

Thank you Oreville (and Mark).

Without serious doubt, the two “top”/“most valuable”/“greatest” modern U.S. coins that are legal to own (ranked in order) are the UNIQUE 1976 “Presentation Piece” No S Silver Eisenhower Dollar (the only Ty 2 Ike Dollar struck in silver for the 200th Anniversary of our country) and the (current 2-known) 1975 No S Roosevelt Dime. I was fortunate to own both of these incredible coins in 2019, including the finer of the two 1975 No S dimes. With the help of Nick Cascio (as the buyer’s agent), I then placed the finest known 1975 No S dime in the greatest Roosevelt Dime collection ever assembled, where it will likely reside for years and years to come. For a decade or two, the Ike has been valued by PCGS at roughly 2x the price of the finest known (PR68) dime. It should be interesting to see what this undergrade PR67 dime sells for next month after it was recently upgraded from its former PCGS PR66 holder.

I was classically trained in writing coin lot descriptions by one of the greatest professional copywriters (and US coin collectors) that ever lived (Justhavingfun). He showed me how good copy doesn’t contain “negative words”. So, it is not surprising that the GC write-up of the 1975 No-S Dime fails to include a single word on the Unique 1976 No S Ike Dollar. There’s simply no point in running up a count of “negative words” by mentioning it. But, it’s certainly in my best interest to support the great U.S. moderns (like this dime) that rank closely behind my Ike Dollar, as the greater the values on these coins, the greater the value of the Ike.

Again, best of luck to everyone pursuing this cool modern coin!

Just my two cents.

Wondercoin

MFeld

@wondercoin said:
Thank you Oreville (and Mark).

Without serious doubt, the two “top”/“most valuable”/“greatest” modern U.S. coins that are legal to own (ranked in order) are the UNIQUE 1976 “Presentation Piece” No S Silver Eisenhower Dollar (the only Ty 2 Ike Dollar struck in silver for the 250th Anniversary of our country) and the (current mintage 2) 1975 No S Roosevelt Dime. I was fortunate to own both of these incredible coins in 2019, including the finer of the two 1975 No S dimes. With the help of Nick Cascio (as the buyer’s agent), I then placed the finest known 1975 No S dime in the greatest Roosevelt Dime collection ever assembled, where it will likely reside for years and years to come. For a decade or two, the Ike has been valued by PCGS at roughly 2x the price of the finest known (PR68) dime. It should be interesting to see what this undergrade PR67 dime sells for next month after it was recently upgraded from its former PCGS PR66 holder.

I was classically trained in writing coin lot descriptions by one of the greatest professional copywriters (and US coin collectors) that ever lived (Justhavingfun). He showed me how good copy doesn’t contain “negative words”. So, it is not surprising that the GC write-up of the 1975 No-S Dime fails to include a single word on the Unique 1976 No S Ike Dollar. There’s simply no point in running up a count of “negative words” by mentioning it. But, it’s certainly in my best interest to support the great U.S. moderns (like this dime) that rank closely behind my Ike Dollar, as the greater the values on these coins, the greater the value of the Ike.

Again, best of luck to everyone pursuing this cool modern coin!

Just my two cents.

Wondercoin

Mitch, I hope you will accept a suggested edit from "and the (current mintage 2) 1975 No S Roosevelt Dime."
to "and the (current 2-known) 1975 No S Roosevelt Dime.", as there's no way to know the mintage.

wondercoin

Thank you Mark.

Wondercoin

oreville

I remember FJ Vollmer touting the 1968 no S proof dimes back in the 1970’s. The could not tout the 1970 no S proof dimes because they were too rare to tout.

oreville

Wondercoin:

Only complaint about you is you have been living on the West Coast.

wondercoin

‘’Wondercoin:
Only complaint about you is you have been living on the West Coast. ’’

Actually, this year it has been a split between West Coast and Tokyo. If any board members from Tokyo area this week want to grab a beer (on me), just send me a message.

Oreville: A special dinner for you and the Ms. Is waiting for you both if you want to visit one of the most exciting cities in the World (besides NYC)! 🤣

Wondercoin

oreville

@wondercoin said:

‘’Wondercoin:
Only complaint about you is you have been living on the West Coast. ’’

Actually, this year it has been a split between West Coast and Tokyo. If any board members from Tokyo area this week want to grab a beer (on me), just send me a message.

Oreville: A special dinner for you and the Ms. Is waiting for you both if you want to visit one of the most exciting cities in the World (besides NYC)! 🤣

Wondercoin

We could not make it out to see you in Thailand as we both got so jammed up.

I recall how wonderful your daughter and you were in reviewing the National Parks quarters.

Clackamas1

Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.

MFeld

@Clackamas1 said:
Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.

What time frame are you speaking of?
When Heritage auctioned the PR68 example in 2019 it was listed as 1 of 2 known, not as unique.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-roosevelt-dimes/1975-10c-no-s-pr68-pcgs-pcgs-5254-/a/1299-4715.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

wondercoin

‘’Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.’’

The 1975 No S dime was always a “current 2-known” coin as far as I know. No public sale (or private sale best I know) ever represented it as anything better than that rarity.

Wondercoin

onlyroosies

@Clackamas1 said:
Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.

No sand bagging here. When the current owner of the MS68 coin bought it he very well knew that this coin existed. because of the publicity of his purchase (from Mitch through me) we truly believed that if a 3rd or more existed there would be a high probability of it being discovered. IMHO I don't believe that a 1 point grade difference should reflect much of a value difference between the 2 existing coins.

Nick Cascio

telephoto1

I knew Fred Vollmer for a number of years and did regular business with him in the late 80s/early 90s. His shop was in Bloomington, not Chicago as stated in the listing (unless he started up there and moved to central IL later).

MFeld

@Clackamas1 said:
Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.

@Clackamas, please provide some facts that back up your accusation of bad faith dealing. Multiple parties to the transaction have stated that the existence of two different examples was well known.

wondercoin

Mark. Thank you for “calling out” the baseless assertion of a six year board member who should know better. But, the absurdity of the claim on its face is the fact that the seller who allegedly “sandbagged” the buyer to get $500k by claiming it was “Unique” posted an article on their own website the very week of the purchase from Heritage and subsequent sale to the private collector using Nick as his agent, and (as I recall) participated in an interview with Numismatic News for a story on the second sale (arranged by Donn Perlman) and had this to say in pertinent part (among other talking points on the two 1975 No S coins) a week after the Heritage auction:

‘’In 1975, these two sets were purchased by a lucky California collector who ordered five sets from the Mint. She noticed that two the Roosevelt Dimes in her sets lacked the “S” Mint Mark and eventually had the two coins certified by ANACS. Both of these proof sets were eventually sold to coin dealer Fred Vollmer, a specialist in No S proof coins. Vollmer eventually sold one of these sets to a collector from Ohio for $18,200, who later had the dime certified as PR66 by PCGS. It is believed that the coin still resides with this collector to this day.

The second set, containing the coin purchased here, was later sold by Vollmer to a private collector for $38,550 in 1980. From there it was passed to a dealer who consigned it to Stack’s Bowers in 2011, where it sold for a record $349,600. Up until the sale on September 6th, 2019, this PCGS-PR68 example has remained in the collection of the 2011 winning bidder. The 1975 proof No S Roosevelt Dime is the rarest of all "S"-Less modern coins -- behind only the unique 1976 proof No S Eisenhower Dollar.’’

Once again, anyone interested can read the Article in its entirety on Justin’s website (www.monstercoinmart.com). Of course, the “$18,200” coin discussed above is the GC sale coin.

Wondercoin.

onlyroosies

Current bid is $210K with 52 days to go.

MFeld

@wondercoin said:
Mark. Thank you for “calling out” the baseless assertion of a six year board member who should know better. But, the absurdity of the claim on its face is the fact that the seller who allegedly “sandbagged” the buyer to get $500k by claiming it was “Unique” posted an article on their own website the very week of the purchase from Heritage and subsequent sale to the private collector using Nick as his agent, and (as I recall) participated in an interview with Numismatic News for a story on the second sale (arranged by Donn Perlman) and had this to say in pertinent part (among other talking points on the two 1975 No S coins) a week after the Heritage auction:

‘’In 1975, these two sets were purchased by a lucky California collector who ordered five sets from the Mint. She noticed that two the Roosevelt Dimes in her sets lacked the “S” Mint Mark and eventually had the two coins certified by ANACS. Both of these proof sets were eventually sold to coin dealer Fred Vollmer, a specialist in No S proof coins. Vollmer eventually sold one of these sets to a collector from Ohio for $18,200, who later had the dime certified as PR66 by PCGS. It is believed that the coin still resides with this collector to this day.

The second set, containing the coin purchased here, was later sold by Vollmer to a private collector for $38,550 in 1980. From there it was passed to a dealer who consigned it to Stack’s Bowers in 2011, where it sold for a record $349,600. Up until the sale on September 6th, 2019, this PCGS-PR68 example has remained in the collection of the 2011 winning bidder. The 1975 proof No S Roosevelt Dime is the rarest of all "S"-Less modern coins -- behind only the unique 1976 proof No S Eisenhower Dollar.’’

Once again, anyone interested can read the Article in its entirety on Justin’s website (www.monstercoinmart.com). Of course, the “$18,200” coin discussed above is the GC sale coin.

Wondercoin.

@Clackamas1 is active today but for whatever reason, still hasn’t bothered to explain the basis for what looks to have been a baseless assertion/accusation on his part.

Clackamas1

@onlyroosies said:

@Clackamas1 said:
Congrats to the seller but that person sand bagged this one to get $500K for the other knowing full well there was a second coin. That is the definition of bad faith in allowing the other coin to be called unique. I would be furious if I purchased the other coin and found this out.

No sand bagging here. When the current owner of the MS68 coin bought it he very well knew that this coin existed. because of the publicity of his purchase (from Mitch through me) we truly believed that if a 3rd or more existed there would be a high probability of it being discovered. IMHO I don't believe that a 1 point grade difference should reflect much of a value difference between the 2 existing coins.

Nick Cascio

Nick, thanks for clearing things up.

ianrussell

An update about the 1975 No S Dime in our auctions. The example in our auction is now CAC approved.

CAC recently added the six No S Proofs to their list of coins they accept for stickering review.

1968 - Proof Dime
1970 - Proof Dime
1971 - Proof Nickel
1975 - Proof Dime
1983 - Proof Dime
1990 - Proof Lincoln Cent

It will be at the Tampa show next week at our table - and hopefully on TV as well - will share the video if that happens.

• Ian

Jacques_Loungecoque

Sand bagging? If one did have more than one of anything exceedingly rare, the only way to get the best money out of them is to slow roll their intro. You can’t even get them slabbed together so as to not tip off via the census. That’s not unethical, that’s smart. Anyone with even a decent familiarity with this field knows populations can change at any time.