And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
I think Marty was/is a tremendous coach, yes. Tremendous record everywhere, just about.
I agree 100% about Marty.
Marty may have been a better coach than Bill. Only difference was he never had Brady to carry him.
Maybe. If and butts, candy and nuts.
He had some good teams, some good QBs but some bad luck; an ill timed (and all time) Ernest Byner fumble and an ill timed injury to LaDanian Tomlinson may have cost him his best two chances.
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And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
I think Marty was/is a tremendous coach, yes. Tremendous record everywhere, just about.
I agree 100% about Marty.
Marty may have been a better coach than Bill. Only difference was he never had Brady to carry him.
Maybe. If and butts, candy and nuts.
He had some good teams, some good QBs but some bad luck; an ill timed (and all time) Ernest Byner fumble and an ill timed injury to LaDanian Tomlinson may have cost him his best two chances.
There are no iffs and butts with Belichick's failure in Cleveland. He failed. Seems the iffs and butts are coming to defend Belichicks failure in Cleveland.
No iffs and Butts with Belichick's failures in NE when Brady wasn't the QB. He has failed that too.
My feelings on the subject are quite simple, without Brady as quarterback he would go down at best as a midle of the road coach.
Brady made him and without Brady he just plain sucks!
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
It didn't work in Cleveland and hasn't worked now without Brady.
A .500 coach without Brady. That's what he has been. I'm not guessing at that. That is over 9 seasons worth of games too so not a fluke.
Brady got drafted in two sports without Bill's help. Brady did just fine after Bill and as an old man. It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill. Maybe Mac Jones could use that then if it was Bill's doing.
Yeah, Belichick is only person that could do that with someone like Edelman? Thats a stretch. What about his early round busts? Did he then ruin those guys?
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
It didn't work in Cleveland and hasn't worked now without Brady.
A .500 coach without Brady. That's what he has been. I'm not guessing at that. That is over 9 seasons worth of games too so not a fluke.
Brady got drafted in two sports without Bill's help. Brady did just fine after Bill and as an old man. It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill. Maybe Mac Jones could use that then if it was Bill's doing.
Yeah, Belichick is only person that could do that with someone like Edelman? Thats a stretch. What about his early round busts? Did he then ruin those guys?
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
When I say "isolating the contributions of one person" it very definitely includes the head coach. But maybe it isn't clear what "isolating" means. You've got a team that wins 10 games, loses 6; how many of those wins are attributable to the head coach? To the quarterback? To the defense. It is literally impossible to answer those questions, and to believe otherwise is silly.
None of which is to say that it's impossible by watching a player, or coach, over an extended period of time to identify which ones are terrible, good, or great. You can, and the more games you see the more accurate you'll be. But in a team sport there are a whole lot more variables than there are equations, and to say "Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana" (or vice versa) is just silly; there's no possible way to know that. Ditto for BB and any other great coach; it is impossible to isolate the contributions of any player or coach from the contributions of everyone else to the degree necessary to reach conclusions like that.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"great coaches cant win with a bad team"
Yes you're right, but the great coaches, for the most part, have superior ability to usually put together a great team.
Is there some luck, etc, involved in that? Sure there is. But any hypothetical argument as to what could have happened if Belichick didn't draft Brady is nothing more than fiction. Because Belichick did draft Brady and wound up winning six Super Bowls. That is a fact, and especially in the NFL, results matter.
As Vince Lombardi once stated, Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing. 😊
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
When I say "isolating the contributions of one person" it very definitely includes the head coach. But maybe it isn't clear what "isolating" means. You've got a team that wins 10 games, loses 6; how many of those wins are attributable to the head coach? To the quarterback? To the defense. It is literally impossible to answer those questions, and to believe otherwise is silly.
None of which is to say that it's impossible by watching a player, or coach, over an extended period of time to identify which ones are terrible, good, or great. You can, and the more games you see the more accurate you'll be. But in a team sport there are a whole lot more variables than there are equations, and to say "Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana" (or vice versa) is just silly; there's no possible way to know that. Ditto for BB and any other great coach; it is impossible to isolate the contributions of any player or coach from the contributions of everyone else to the degree necessary to reach conclusions like that.
Yep, it's all opinion of course.
That being said, it's not opinion that Bill Belichick won six Super Bowls in the salary cap era. That is a stone cold fact. And it would simply be naive not to acknowledge that as an extraordinary achievement.
I think this record may never be broken, although it looks as though Andy Reid may make a go of it. However winning two is still a long way off from winning six.
Andy Reid has proven to be a fantastic judge of talent when it comes to drafting quarterbacks. He actually was a quarterbacks coach before he made the leap to head coach with the Eagles. It was Andy Reid who drafted Mahomes, and it was Belichick who drafted Brady. They made the right decisions, and reaped the rewards.
Your premise if I'm reading it right, or certainly others here implied or mentioned it, that Belichick just somehow randomly stumbled upon drafting Tom Brady, now that is silly, very silly. It takes years of preparation and skill to develop the instinct to make a pick like that. Lots of luck in any draft, of course, but all things being equal, lots of skill as well.
In conclusion, it shouldn't be debatable that those who put together a football team, are mostly responsible for its success or failure. And in the case of Bill Belichick, it's the most remarkable example of success in US professional team sports in the salary cap era, by far, considering the complexity of putting together a football team versus say a basketball team.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"great coaches cant win with a bad team"
Yes you're right, but the great coaches, for the most part, have superior ability to usually put together a great team.
Is there some luck, etc, involved in that? Sure there is. But any hypothetical argument as to what could have happened if Belichick didn't draft Brady is nothing more than fiction. Because Belichick did draft Brady and wound up winning six Super Bowls. That is a fact, and especially in the NFL, results matter.
As Vince Lombardi once stated, Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing. 😊
Brady was drafted, but very late. It wasnt like they said this is our QB of the future. He was drafted as a back up that was never expected to play and Bledsoe got Wally Pipped when he got hurt. Its unfortunate for Bledsoe, but if he never gets hurt theres a pretty good chance Brady never sees the field and they draft someone else or free agency when the Bledsoe contract expires.
It ended up being a great pick, but it gets romanticized a lot like it was their plan to turn it over to Brady when it just wasnt
I'm not saying he was a bad coach or anything like that (I think hes pretty average currently and hasnt adjusted enough to not having an elite QB) but Brady starting did take some luck at the expense of Bledsoe that lead to the run. Brady was able to go to Tampa and put together another SB winning team in a year. These elite QBs once theyre established are coaching on the field and making a lot of decisions that coaches get credit for.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
I wouldn't consider Shanahan a "bad" coach. I'd even rate him above average. In any event, you're right about Elway making a coach look better.
Defenses can also make a coach look better. Look at the 1985 Bears which many consider the greatest team in the history of the NFL. Yes, they had Walter Payton, a great running back, but it was that killer defense which made that team into a legend.
I thought you might mention Mike Ditka as a "bad" coach example who won a Super Bowl. I wouldn't rate Ditka as bad, but certainly not good, probably mediocre to below average would be his rating. Despite the high accolades for that 1985 Bears team, it's the only Super Bowl they ever won.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
It didn't work in Cleveland and hasn't worked now without Brady.
A .500 coach without Brady. That's what he has been. I'm not guessing at that. That is over 9 seasons worth of games too so not a fluke.
Brady got drafted in two sports without Bill's help. Brady did just fine after Bill and as an old man. It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill. Maybe Mac Jones could use that then if it was Bill's doing.
Yeah, Belichick is only person that could do that with someone like Edelman? Thats a stretch. What about his early round busts? Did he then ruin those guys?
"It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill."
Why did you give Bill even 5% of the credit? 🤣
For writing Brady's name down in the lineup and for not being a Bears coach.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"great coaches cant win with a bad team"
Yes you're right, but the great coaches, for the most part, have superior ability to usually put together a great team.
Is there some luck, etc, involved in that? Sure there is. But any hypothetical argument as to what could have happened if Belichick didn't draft Brady is nothing more than fiction. Because Belichick did draft Brady and wound up winning six Super Bowls. That is a fact, and especially in the NFL, results matter.
As Vince Lombardi once stated, Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing. 😊
Brady was drafted, but very late. It wasnt like they said this is our QB of the future. He was drafted as a back up that was never expected to play and Bledsoe got Wally Pipped when he got hurt. Its unfortunate for Bledsoe, but if he never gets hurt theres a pretty good chance Brady never sees the field and they draft someone else or free agency when the Bledsoe contract expires.
It ended up being a great pick, but it gets romanticized a lot like it was their plan to turn it over to Brady when it just wasnt
I'm not saying he was a bad coach or anything like that (I think hes pretty average currently and hasnt adjusted enough to not having an elite QB) but Brady starting did take some luck at the expense of Bledsoe that lead to the run. Brady was able to go to Tampa and put together another SB winning team in a year. These elite QBs once theyre established are coaching on the field and making a lot of decisions that coaches get credit for.
Brady was a good fit for Tampa Bay, and was the piece they needed to complete the puzzle. Bruce Arians actually reminded me of Bill Belichick a bit with his coaching style, the way he treated players, although not nearly as smart a version.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
It didn't work in Cleveland and hasn't worked now without Brady.
A .500 coach without Brady. That's what he has been. I'm not guessing at that. That is over 9 seasons worth of games too so not a fluke.
Brady got drafted in two sports without Bill's help. Brady did just fine after Bill and as an old man. It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill. Maybe Mac Jones could use that then if it was Bill's doing.
Yeah, Belichick is only person that could do that with someone like Edelman? Thats a stretch. What about his early round busts? Did he then ruin those guys?
"It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill."
Why did you give Bill even 5% of the credit? 🤣
For writing Brady's name down in the lineup and for not being a Bears coach.
I always found it hilarious the number of Patriots fans who are fans of Belichick, who can't spell Belichick correctly, sometimes they don't even get close. I mean if you're gonna be a fan of somebody, at least spell his name correctly for crying out loud. 😆
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
I think that BB is a masterful defensive coach. He devised the game plan to stop the Bills and the K-Gun in SB 20
He also developed the plan to stop the greatest show on turf in the Patriots first SB. Even today, he can game plan out a teams biggest weapon. look what he did to Tyreek last week.
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
I'm a BB fan but I will say Shula seems to have the most sustained excellence across QBs, eras, etc. It would have been interesting to see how he did in the salary cap era as I think BB letting key players leave in free agency while maintaining the Pats dynasty is one of his defining legacies as the HC/GM (well that and drafting terrible WRs). It is also something none of the other all time great head coaches had to deal with.
As for the Eagles/Pats SB, don't you think MB actions cost them the game as much as BB? I never have understood why players do anything before the SB to put themselves in jeopardy. That said, for all we know, MB could have blown out an ACL on the first play of the game so there is no real way of knowing what the outcome would have been if he played. I thought the Eagles were extremely lucky all season with being super aggressive on 4th down, so sort of felt like the stars were aligning for them. I will agree that it certainly didn't help the Pats chances that MB was benched.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
You make some solid points. But of course we shall never know for sure.
Besides, the Patriots had already won too many Super Bowls. It was time to let another team drink water from the well. 😎
This conversation has veered into the ridiculous…I’m out!> @stevek said:
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
A word…
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@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
You make some solid points. But of course we shall never know for sure.
Besides, the Patriots had already won too many Super Bowls. It was time to let another team drink water from the well. 😎
I dont know, when it comes to Super Bowls, I think too many is never enough!!😆
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
@fergie23 said:
I'm a BB fan but I will say Shula seems to have the most sustained excellence across QBs, eras, etc. It would have been interesting to see how he did in the salary cap era as I think BB letting key players leave in free agency while maintaining the Pats dynasty is one of his defining legacies as the HC/GM (well that and drafting terrible WRs). It is also something none of the other all time great head coaches had to deal with.
As for the Eagles/Pats SB, don't you think MB actions cost them the game as much as BB? I never have understood why players do anything before the SB to put themselves in jeopardy. That said, for all we know, MB could have blown out an ACL on the first play of the game so there is no real way of knowing what the outcome would have been if he played. I thought the Eagles were extremely lucky all season with being super aggressive on 4th down, so sort of felt like the stars were aligning for them. I will agree that it certainly didn't help the Pats chances that MB was benched.
Robb
I think that a personal matter (Steve Belichick/Butler) should have stayed a personal matter. instead of just punishing Butler, BB ended up punishing the entire team. It was a selfish move on BB part. If anything, after the game they could have had a meeting with the involved parties and either reconciled or decided to part ways. doing it the way he did was simply BB's ego.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
I never knew that reason
yeah, It was never released as the "official" reason, but the rumor mill in New England had it that there was an physical altercation between SB and Butler and it was over a woman. Butler got sat and the rest is history.
@craig44 said:
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
I never knew that reason
yeah, It was never released as the "official" reason, but the rumor mill in New England had it that there was an physical altercation between SB and Butler and it was over a woman. Butler got sat and the rest is history.
That actually makes a lot more sense to me, than the usual statements that Butler just broke some team rule.
Lombardi's star players broke the rules like clockwork. Yes, Lombardi would fine them, but they always played on Sunday. However this incident if true, if something similar happened with Lombardi, might have been more than Vince was willing to let go, and Vince may have done something similar as was done to Butler.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"great coaches cant win with a bad team"
Yes you're right, but the great coaches, for the most part, have superior ability to usually put together a great team.
Is there some luck, etc, involved in that? Sure there is. But any hypothetical argument as to what could have happened if Belichick didn't draft Brady is nothing more than fiction. Because Belichick did draft Brady and wound up winning six Super Bowls. That is a fact, and especially in the NFL, results matter.
As Vince Lombardi once stated, Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing. 😊
Brady was drafted, but very late. It wasnt like they said this is our QB of the future. He was drafted as a back up that was never expected to play and Bledsoe got Wally Pipped when he got hurt. Its unfortunate for Bledsoe, but if he never gets hurt theres a pretty good chance Brady never sees the field and they draft someone else or free agency when the Bledsoe contract expires.
It ended up being a great pick, but it gets romanticized a lot like it was their plan to turn it over to Brady when it just wasnt
I'm not saying he was a bad coach or anything like that (I think hes pretty average currently and hasnt adjusted enough to not having an elite QB) but Brady starting did take some luck at the expense of Bledsoe that lead to the run. Brady was able to go to Tampa and put together another SB winning team in a year. These elite QBs once theyre established are coaching on the field and making a lot of decisions that coaches get credit for.
Brady was a good fit for Tampa Bay, and was the piece they needed to complete the puzzle. Bruce Arians actually reminded me of Bill Belichick a bit with his coaching style, the way he treated players, although not nearly as smart a version.
Dont forget a bunch of free agents also took less money to go play with Brady to try and win, I havent seen players taking less money to go play for Belicheck withouit Brady there. Elite QBs have a massive influence on a lot of things and make it much easier to sign guys or even sign guys for less
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
I wouldn't consider Shanahan a "bad" coach. I'd even rate him above average. In any event, you're right about Elway making a coach look better.
Defenses can also make a coach look better. Look at the 1985 Bears which many consider the greatest team in the history of the NFL. Yes, they had Walter Payton, a great running back, but it was that killer defense which made that team into a legend.
I thought you might mention Mike Ditka as a "bad" coach example who won a Super Bowl. I wouldn't rate Ditka as bad, but certainly not good, probably mediocre to below average would be his rating. Despite the high accolades for that 1985 Bears team, it's the only Super Bowl they ever won.
Id consider Shanahan average at best being generous. His run in Denver he basically inherited the roster that got him the two SBs and their best run. For the most part they got progressively worse the longer he was there. He was also a disaster in Washington.
Ditka I dont know enough to really have an opinion from his coaching other that back in the 80s there was a value to just having a ruthless mean guy firing people up even if they werent the best with the Xs and Os.
@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
I wouldn't consider Shanahan a "bad" coach. I'd even rate him above average. In any event, you're right about Elway making a coach look better.
Defenses can also make a coach look better. Look at the 1985 Bears which many consider the greatest team in the history of the NFL. Yes, they had Walter Payton, a great running back, but it was that killer defense which made that team into a legend.
I thought you might mention Mike Ditka as a "bad" coach example who won a Super Bowl. I wouldn't rate Ditka as bad, but certainly not good, probably mediocre to below average would be his rating. Despite the high accolades for that 1985 Bears team, it's the only Super Bowl they ever won.
Id consider Shanahan average at best being generous. His run in Denver he basically inherited the roster that got him the two SBs and their best run. For the most part they got progressively worse the longer he was there. He was also a disaster in Washington.
Ditka I dont know enough to really have an opinion from his coaching other that back in the 80s there was a value to just having a ruthless mean guy firing people up even if they werent the best with the Xs and Os.
You got it exactly right about Mike Ditka. I don't recall the exact game, but I do remember watching a game on TV with the Bears. His team looked lethargic out there and fell behind in the score. Well I've never seen anything like this before or since, Mike literally on the sideline starting getting into a number of player's faces, screaming at them to step it up.
It worked, the Bears did step it up, and wound-up winning the game. But that sort of chit never works well with players in the long run. Perhaps that's one reason why Mike only won one Super Bowl with what is considered by many, the 1985 Bears, to be the greatest team in NFL history.
I don't think there's many who think the 1985 Bears were the greatest team in NFL history, I think they needed a bit more than the 1 SB victory.
I also think Buddy Ryan contributed as much or more to the Bears team, I have read that his defense ignored Ditka and listened to Ryan.
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@stevek said:
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
I wouldn't consider Shanahan a "bad" coach. I'd even rate him above average. In any event, you're right about Elway making a coach look better.
Defenses can also make a coach look better. Look at the 1985 Bears which many consider the greatest team in the history of the NFL. Yes, they had Walter Payton, a great running back, but it was that killer defense which made that team into a legend.
I thought you might mention Mike Ditka as a "bad" coach example who won a Super Bowl. I wouldn't rate Ditka as bad, but certainly not good, probably mediocre to below average would be his rating. Despite the high accolades for that 1985 Bears team, it's the only Super Bowl they ever won.
Id consider Shanahan average at best being generous. His run in Denver he basically inherited the roster that got him the two SBs and their best run. For the most part they got progressively worse the longer he was there. He was also a disaster in Washington.
Ditka I dont know enough to really have an opinion from his coaching other that back in the 80s there was a value to just having a ruthless mean guy firing people up even if they werent the best with the Xs and Os.
You got it exactly right about Mike Ditka. I don't recall the exact game, but I do remember watching a game on TV with the Bears. His team looked lethargic out there and fell behind in the score. Well I've never seen anything like this before or since, Mike literally on the sideline starting getting into a number of player's faces, screaming at them to step it up.
It worked, the Bears did step it up, and wound-up winning the game. But that sort of chit never works well with players in the long run. Perhaps that's one reason why Mike only won one Super Bowl with what is considered by many, the 1985 Bears, to be the greatest team in NFL history.
Ed Oregeron at LSU in 2019 won the Natty and had the best offense in college football history, but wasnt a good Xs and Os guy either. Even got fired 2 years later, but a lot of what head coaches do is put together a staff and convince people to want to play with them. Its a little different for college with recruiting but the NFL has that to an extent with free agency.
The coaches that try and do it all generally get stretched to thin and end up being kind of good at everything but not great at anything. I'd rather have a guy that is smart enough to surround themselves with great coordinators and let them do their job or let their elite QB/players do their jobs than someone that wants control of everything
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
When I say "isolating the contributions of one person" it very definitely includes the head coach. But maybe it isn't clear what "isolating" means. You've got a team that wins 10 games, loses 6; how many of those wins are attributable to the head coach? To the quarterback? To the defense. It is literally impossible to answer those questions, and to believe otherwise is silly.
None of which is to say that it's impossible by watching a player, or coach, over an extended period of time to identify which ones are terrible, good, or great. You can, and the more games you see the more accurate you'll be. But in a team sport there are a whole lot more variables than there are equations, and to say "Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana" (or vice versa) is just silly; there's no possible way to know that. Ditto for BB and any other great coach; it is impossible to isolate the contributions of any player or coach from the contributions of everyone else to the degree necessary to reach conclusions like that.
Yep, it's all opinion of course.
That being said, it's not opinion that Bill Belichick won six Super Bowls in the salary cap era. That is a stone cold fact. And it would simply be naive not to acknowledge that as an extraordinary achievement.
I think this record may never be broken, although it looks as though Andy Reid may make a go of it. However winning two is still a long way off from winning six.
Andy Reid has proven to be a fantastic judge of talent when it comes to drafting quarterbacks. He actually was a quarterbacks coach before he made the leap to head coach with the Eagles. It was Andy Reid who drafted Mahomes, and it was Belichick who drafted Brady. They made the right decisions, and reaped the rewards.
Your premise if I'm reading it right, or certainly others here implied or mentioned it, that Belichick just somehow randomly stumbled upon drafting Tom Brady, now that is silly, very silly. It takes years of preparation and skill to develop the instinct to make a pick like that. Lots of luck in any draft, of course, but all things being equal, lots of skill as well.
In conclusion, it shouldn't be debatable that those who put together a football team, are mostly responsible for its success or failure. And in the case of Bill Belichick, it's the most remarkable example of success in US professional team sports in the salary cap era, by far, considering the complexity of putting together a football team versus say a basketball team.
No Andy Reid wasn’t responsible for drafting Mahomes. That’s 100% Brett veach. Brett wasn’t even GM yet when he discovered a freshman QB while scouting a different player at Texas tech. The young qb was mahomes and over the next couple years Veach wore out Reid and gm John Dorsey telling them the kid was the best qb he’d ever seen. Veach had a single minded goal and just completely hounded Reid about mahomes. It took lots of convincing to get Reid on board but Veach did it. So in the draft of 2017 Veach was now gm and traded up to get a shot at mahomes. Then all it took was the bears thinking trubisky was the best qb in the draft and the rest is history.
Even Reid has credited Veach for his all out pursuit of mahomes, there have been several great articles about how the chiefs landed him.
Edit- Veach may have been promoted to gm after the 2017 draft, I really don’t remember but I’m thinking him getting mahomes may have helped a lot in his getting the gm job.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
When I say "isolating the contributions of one person" it very definitely includes the head coach. But maybe it isn't clear what "isolating" means. You've got a team that wins 10 games, loses 6; how many of those wins are attributable to the head coach? To the quarterback? To the defense. It is literally impossible to answer those questions, and to believe otherwise is silly.
None of which is to say that it's impossible by watching a player, or coach, over an extended period of time to identify which ones are terrible, good, or great. You can, and the more games you see the more accurate you'll be. But in a team sport there are a whole lot more variables than there are equations, and to say "Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana" (or vice versa) is just silly; there's no possible way to know that. Ditto for BB and any other great coach; it is impossible to isolate the contributions of any player or coach from the contributions of everyone else to the degree necessary to reach conclusions like that.
Yep, it's all opinion of course.
That being said, it's not opinion that Bill Belichick won six Super Bowls in the salary cap era. That is a stone cold fact. And it would simply be naive not to acknowledge that as an extraordinary achievement.
I think this record may never be broken, although it looks as though Andy Reid may make a go of it. However winning two is still a long way off from winning six.
Andy Reid has proven to be a fantastic judge of talent when it comes to drafting quarterbacks. He actually was a quarterbacks coach before he made the leap to head coach with the Eagles. It was Andy Reid who drafted Mahomes, and it was Belichick who drafted Brady. They made the right decisions, and reaped the rewards.
Your premise if I'm reading it right, or certainly others here implied or mentioned it, that Belichick just somehow randomly stumbled upon drafting Tom Brady, now that is silly, very silly. It takes years of preparation and skill to develop the instinct to make a pick like that. Lots of luck in any draft, of course, but all things being equal, lots of skill as well.
In conclusion, it shouldn't be debatable that those who put together a football team, are mostly responsible for its success or failure. And in the case of Bill Belichick, it's the most remarkable example of success in US professional team sports in the salary cap era, by far, considering the complexity of putting together a football team versus say a basketball team.
No Andy Reid wasn’t responsible for drafting Mahomes. That’s 100% Brett veach. Brett wasn’t even GM yet when he discovered a freshman QB while scouting a different player at Texas tech. The young qb was mahomes and over the next couple years Veach wore out Reid and gm John Dorsey telling them the kid was the best qb he’d ever seen. Veach had a single minded goal and just completely hounded Reid about mahomes. It took lots of convincing to get Reid on board but Veach did it. So in the draft of 2017 Veach was now gm and traded up to get a shot at mahomes. Then all it took was the bears thinking trubisky was the best qb in the draft and the rest is history.
Even Reid has credited Veach for his all out pursuit of mahomes, there have been several great articles about how the chiefs landed him.
Edit- Veach may have been promoted to gm after the 2017 draft, I really don’t remember but I’m thinking him getting mahomes may have helped a lot in his getting the gm job.
Well good for this Veach fellow. You know infinitely more about the Chiefs than I do. In fact I don't follow their front office workings at all.
That being said, I do know Andy Reid from his many years in Philly, and there's no way the Chiefs would have drafted Mahomes without Andy's approval. Which I think you fully implied here that Andy did sign-off on him.
Glad it worked out for the Chiefs and Andy. He's a good guy and he deserves the championships.
Comments
Exactly who designed the plays and game plan for Brady to execute?
Last time I checked, there wasn't a NFL game plan service which a coach could download for $29.95.
Although there have been some NFL coaches who were so bad, perhaps they did try using these online game plans. 😂
Maybe. If and butts, candy and nuts.
He had some good teams, some good QBs but some bad luck; an ill timed (and all time) Ernest Byner fumble and an ill timed injury to LaDanian Tomlinson may have cost him his best two chances.
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There are no iffs and butts with Belichick's failure in Cleveland. He failed. Seems the iffs and butts are coming to defend Belichicks failure in Cleveland.
No iffs and Butts with Belichick's failures in NE when Brady wasn't the QB. He has failed that too.
My feelings on the subject are quite simple, without Brady as quarterback he would go down at best as a midle of the road coach.
Brady made him and without Brady he just plain sucks!
This conversation has veered into the ridiculous so…
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If it were as easy as just designing a play then you could plug any QB into any team and it wouldn't matter. Having a different QB for Bill B's plays yielded much different results compared to Brady.
Not saying Bill is a bad coach. Not by a stretch. But when terms like genius get thrown around there has to be some skepticism...and considering the evidence Bill had without Brady that skepticism is warranted.
@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible.
"@dallasactuary said it best before, isolating the contributions of one person in a football team really is impossible."
I'm not gonna go back and find the context of that comment. If it's for one player, i might agree. If it's for a head coach, the comment would be silly.
The head coach with outsmarting the other head coaches with game planning and game calling is an integral part of winning football games, not even debatable. Bill Belichick is a genius at that, and that's not debatable either.
Does Belichick sometimes draft the wrong players or make mistakes? Of course, it is impossible not to do that. But during his magnificent run, the greatest in US major team sports history, Belichick again without debate, the record speaks for itself, overall, made better and smarter decisions than the rest of the league, and he masterminded putting the team together to do that, including drafting and molding Tom Brady into a superstar.
Another good example of this other than Tom, is Julian Edelman. Drafted in the 7th round to play wide receiver, and he wasn't even a wide receiver in college. However Belichick must have saw something on film that he liked, drafted the kid, and molded him into a star player. I doubt if any other coach, possibly ever, could have done this with Edelman. I have my doubts that Julian would have played a single down in the NFL without Bill Belichick doing what he did. Further proof of the genius of Bill Belichick.
It didn't work in Cleveland and hasn't worked now without Brady.
A .500 coach without Brady. That's what he has been. I'm not guessing at that. That is over 9 seasons worth of games too so not a fluke.
Brady got drafted in two sports without Bill's help. Brady did just fine after Bill and as an old man. It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill. Maybe Mac Jones could use that then if it was Bill's doing.
Yeah, Belichick is only person that could do that with someone like Edelman? Thats a stretch. What about his early round busts? Did he then ruin those guys?
Paging @N'Keal Harry
"It was 95% Brady and 5% Bill."
Why did you give Bill even 5% of the credit? 🤣
The coaching staff not just the head coach. Coordinators makes big money for a reason. Elite QBs also have a lot more to do with calling plays at the line than a coach does. Great teams can win with a bad coach, great coaches cant win with a bad team
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"Great teams can win with a bad coach"
The only time I recall that happening in the NFL with a "bad" coach, was with Barry Switzer, because Jimmy Johnson had left him such a powerhouse of a team.
Of course you're right about the coaching staff. However in the case of Bill Belichick, he had control over all of that as well. He picked that staff which led to great things.
And yes a smart QB such as Brady can make good decisions with audibles. However the better coaches teach them how and when to do that. Those audibles are often game planned as well, as all coaches have tendencies, and a genius such as Belichick knows his opponents tendencies, and how they might react to a certain offensive formation. Brady sees that, trained for it, and quickly makes the audible.
When I say "isolating the contributions of one person" it very definitely includes the head coach. But maybe it isn't clear what "isolating" means. You've got a team that wins 10 games, loses 6; how many of those wins are attributable to the head coach? To the quarterback? To the defense. It is literally impossible to answer those questions, and to believe otherwise is silly.
None of which is to say that it's impossible by watching a player, or coach, over an extended period of time to identify which ones are terrible, good, or great. You can, and the more games you see the more accurate you'll be. But in a team sport there are a whole lot more variables than there are equations, and to say "Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana" (or vice versa) is just silly; there's no possible way to know that. Ditto for BB and any other great coach; it is impossible to isolate the contributions of any player or coach from the contributions of everyone else to the degree necessary to reach conclusions like that.
"great coaches cant win with a bad team"
Yes you're right, but the great coaches, for the most part, have superior ability to usually put together a great team.
Is there some luck, etc, involved in that? Sure there is. But any hypothetical argument as to what could have happened if Belichick didn't draft Brady is nothing more than fiction. Because Belichick did draft Brady and wound up winning six Super Bowls. That is a fact, and especially in the NFL, results matter.
As Vince Lombardi once stated, Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing. 😊
Yep, it's all opinion of course.
That being said, it's not opinion that Bill Belichick won six Super Bowls in the salary cap era. That is a stone cold fact. And it would simply be naive not to acknowledge that as an extraordinary achievement.
I think this record may never be broken, although it looks as though Andy Reid may make a go of it. However winning two is still a long way off from winning six.
Andy Reid has proven to be a fantastic judge of talent when it comes to drafting quarterbacks. He actually was a quarterbacks coach before he made the leap to head coach with the Eagles. It was Andy Reid who drafted Mahomes, and it was Belichick who drafted Brady. They made the right decisions, and reaped the rewards.
Your premise if I'm reading it right, or certainly others here implied or mentioned it, that Belichick just somehow randomly stumbled upon drafting Tom Brady, now that is silly, very silly. It takes years of preparation and skill to develop the instinct to make a pick like that. Lots of luck in any draft, of course, but all things being equal, lots of skill as well.
In conclusion, it shouldn't be debatable that those who put together a football team, are mostly responsible for its success or failure. And in the case of Bill Belichick, it's the most remarkable example of success in US professional team sports in the salary cap era, by far, considering the complexity of putting together a football team versus say a basketball team.
Brady was drafted, but very late. It wasnt like they said this is our QB of the future. He was drafted as a back up that was never expected to play and Bledsoe got Wally Pipped when he got hurt. Its unfortunate for Bledsoe, but if he never gets hurt theres a pretty good chance Brady never sees the field and they draft someone else or free agency when the Bledsoe contract expires.
It ended up being a great pick, but it gets romanticized a lot like it was their plan to turn it over to Brady when it just wasnt
I'm not saying he was a bad coach or anything like that (I think hes pretty average currently and hasnt adjusted enough to not having an elite QB) but Brady starting did take some luck at the expense of Bledsoe that lead to the run. Brady was able to go to Tampa and put together another SB winning team in a year. These elite QBs once theyre established are coaching on the field and making a lot of decisions that coaches get credit for.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
I dont think Mike Shanahan was a particularly good coach but he won two SBs with Elway, Davis and company.
QB obviously isnt enough, but theres been some great QBs over the last 30 years that have made coaches look much better. Just ask the Chargers lol
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
wow
What kind of weed are you pro bill guys smoking?
did you all miss last seasons Matty P and Joe Judge catastrophe ?
Bill thinks he won 8 super bowls he has tak he may have backed into 1.
Welcome back Bud! 🍻
I wouldn't consider Shanahan a "bad" coach. I'd even rate him above average. In any event, you're right about Elway making a coach look better.
Defenses can also make a coach look better. Look at the 1985 Bears which many consider the greatest team in the history of the NFL. Yes, they had Walter Payton, a great running back, but it was that killer defense which made that team into a legend.
I thought you might mention Mike Ditka as a "bad" coach example who won a Super Bowl. I wouldn't rate Ditka as bad, but certainly not good, probably mediocre to below average would be his rating. Despite the high accolades for that 1985 Bears team, it's the only Super Bowl they ever won.
For writing Brady's name down in the lineup and for not being a Bears coach.
Brady was a good fit for Tampa Bay, and was the piece they needed to complete the puzzle. Bruce Arians actually reminded me of Bill Belichick a bit with his coaching style, the way he treated players, although not nearly as smart a version.
I always found it hilarious the number of Patriots fans who are fans of Belichick, who can't spell Belichick correctly, sometimes they don't even get close. I mean if you're gonna be a fan of somebody, at least spell his name correctly for crying out loud. 😆
Bill saw your post, and immediately put all his Super Bowl rings on Ebay for sale, free shipping. 😆
I did.
Could you explain it for us dummies.
Welcome Back!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think that BB is a masterful defensive coach. He devised the game plan to stop the Bills and the K-Gun in SB 20
He also developed the plan to stop the greatest show on turf in the Patriots first SB. Even today, he can game plan out a teams biggest weapon. look what he did to Tyreek last week.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think BB's biggest failure/call as a coach was when he benched Malcolm Butler for the 2nd Eagles SB. He allegedly did it for personal reasons and it cost the Patriots what should have been a 7th SB. That was done due to ego, plain and simple.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think the Eagles win that Super Bowl anyway.
The Eagles were on a roll, and nothing was going to stop them.
BTW - Nick Foles is the GOAT backup QB. 😉😎
anything is possible, but they played with Butler all year. practiced/game planned with him the 2 weeks before SB, then SB evening comes and corner back 1 is not playing. It was a ripple effect. everyone in the secondary had to move up, and with no warning. people were out of position and the defense played exactly how you would expect, terribly.
all because either butler slept with Steve Belichick's girl, or there was some other type of altercation on SB eve between Butler and Steve. I dont think anyone ever released the whole story. BB's hubris lost that game. Believing he could adjust on the fly. well, he couldnt.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm a BB fan but I will say Shula seems to have the most sustained excellence across QBs, eras, etc. It would have been interesting to see how he did in the salary cap era as I think BB letting key players leave in free agency while maintaining the Pats dynasty is one of his defining legacies as the HC/GM (well that and drafting terrible WRs). It is also something none of the other all time great head coaches had to deal with.
As for the Eagles/Pats SB, don't you think MB actions cost them the game as much as BB? I never have understood why players do anything before the SB to put themselves in jeopardy. That said, for all we know, MB could have blown out an ACL on the first play of the game so there is no real way of knowing what the outcome would have been if he played. I thought the Eagles were extremely lucky all season with being super aggressive on 4th down, so sort of felt like the stars were aligning for them. I will agree that it certainly didn't help the Pats chances that MB was benched.
Robb
You make some solid points. But of course we shall never know for sure.
Besides, the Patriots had already won too many Super Bowls. It was time to let another team drink water from the well. 😎
This conversation has veered into the ridiculous…I’m out!> @stevek said:
A word…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I dont know, when it comes to Super Bowls, I think too many is never enough!!😆
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think that a personal matter (Steve Belichick/Butler) should have stayed a personal matter. instead of just punishing Butler, BB ended up punishing the entire team. It was a selfish move on BB part. If anything, after the game they could have had a meeting with the involved parties and either reconciled or decided to part ways. doing it the way he did was simply BB's ego.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I never knew that reason
yeah, It was never released as the "official" reason, but the rumor mill in New England had it that there was an physical altercation between SB and Butler and it was over a woman. Butler got sat and the rest is history.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That actually makes a lot more sense to me, than the usual statements that Butler just broke some team rule.
Lombardi's star players broke the rules like clockwork. Yes, Lombardi would fine them, but they always played on Sunday. However this incident if true, if something similar happened with Lombardi, might have been more than Vince was willing to let go, and Vince may have done something similar as was done to Butler.
steve belechick with a girl? The pillsbury dough-boy
I have read this thread with great interest.
....
Dont forget a bunch of free agents also took less money to go play with Brady to try and win, I havent seen players taking less money to go play for Belicheck withouit Brady there. Elite QBs have a massive influence on a lot of things and make it much easier to sign guys or even sign guys for less
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Id consider Shanahan average at best being generous. His run in Denver he basically inherited the roster that got him the two SBs and their best run. For the most part they got progressively worse the longer he was there. He was also a disaster in Washington.
Ditka I dont know enough to really have an opinion from his coaching other that back in the 80s there was a value to just having a ruthless mean guy firing people up even if they werent the best with the Xs and Os.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
You got it exactly right about Mike Ditka. I don't recall the exact game, but I do remember watching a game on TV with the Bears. His team looked lethargic out there and fell behind in the score. Well I've never seen anything like this before or since, Mike literally on the sideline starting getting into a number of player's faces, screaming at them to step it up.
It worked, the Bears did step it up, and wound-up winning the game. But that sort of chit never works well with players in the long run. Perhaps that's one reason why Mike only won one Super Bowl with what is considered by many, the 1985 Bears, to be the greatest team in NFL history.
I don't think there's many who think the 1985 Bears were the greatest team in NFL history, I think they needed a bit more than the 1 SB victory.
I also think Buddy Ryan contributed as much or more to the Bears team, I have read that his defense ignored Ditka and listened to Ryan.
Ed Oregeron at LSU in 2019 won the Natty and had the best offense in college football history, but wasnt a good Xs and Os guy either. Even got fired 2 years later, but a lot of what head coaches do is put together a staff and convince people to want to play with them. Its a little different for college with recruiting but the NFL has that to an extent with free agency.
The coaches that try and do it all generally get stretched to thin and end up being kind of good at everything but not great at anything. I'd rather have a guy that is smart enough to surround themselves with great coordinators and let them do their job or let their elite QB/players do their jobs than someone that wants control of everything
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
No Andy Reid wasn’t responsible for drafting Mahomes. That’s 100% Brett veach. Brett wasn’t even GM yet when he discovered a freshman QB while scouting a different player at Texas tech. The young qb was mahomes and over the next couple years Veach wore out Reid and gm John Dorsey telling them the kid was the best qb he’d ever seen. Veach had a single minded goal and just completely hounded Reid about mahomes. It took lots of convincing to get Reid on board but Veach did it. So in the draft of 2017 Veach was now gm and traded up to get a shot at mahomes. Then all it took was the bears thinking trubisky was the best qb in the draft and the rest is history.
Even Reid has credited Veach for his all out pursuit of mahomes, there have been several great articles about how the chiefs landed him.
Edit- Veach may have been promoted to gm after the 2017 draft, I really don’t remember but I’m thinking him getting mahomes may have helped a lot in his getting the gm job.
Well good for this Veach fellow. You know infinitely more about the Chiefs than I do. In fact I don't follow their front office workings at all.
That being said, I do know Andy Reid from his many years in Philly, and there's no way the Chiefs would have drafted Mahomes without Andy's approval. Which I think you fully implied here that Andy did sign-off on him.
Glad it worked out for the Chiefs and Andy. He's a good guy and he deserves the championships.
There’s still meat on this bone 🍖???
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