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Bill Belichick - Greatest coach ever ?

4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
edited September 23, 2023 8:13AM in Sports Talk

You probably know how I feel, so out of respect to our Patriot fans I will not vote the worst choice.

What I will say is that he’s a class act and has captained a very prosperous ship.

That in of itself takes a great character and work ethic.

I don’t feel he’s a great coach but I don’t want to be perceived as someone who is disrespectful to all the good work he’s put in New England.

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Bill Belichick - Greatest coach ever ?

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  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    I'd say he is the complete opposite of a class act, the guy is a straight up jerk.

    If i was entering the NFL draft I'd say without hesitation "Any team but the Pats"

    Not a chance I'd play for him

    He is a genius on certain things but other stuff like drafting and putting together competitive teams without Brady? Not seeing it

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Belichick without question is the GOAT. Shouldn't even be debatable.

    That being said, I have to choose "none of the above" because I wouldn't say "by far" Belichick is the greatest, as there has been a number of great coaches in the NFL. Vince Lombardi immediately comes to mind. Along with Landry and Shula. Bill Walsh was also outstanding.

    Some may laugh at this, and go ahead if you wish. I'm not saying Andy Reid is up there with those mentioned, but I am saying that Andy is putting together quite an impressive resume. No debate that Andy Reid will be in the Hall of Fame.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    I think I mashed the wrong button on the poll. Let me explain.

    I do consider BB the greatest coach of all time, though I dont know if i would go so far as saying he is by far the greatest. I also think he could have had more success had he never been a GM. He is not a good GM in my opinion, but I think his personality type just requires him to have 100% control over whatever situation he finds himself in.

    I also would call him the GOAT of watching/interpreting game film. he is pretty legendary for his ability to pick apart an opponent's film and be able to take away their top weapons. He even did this last week vs the dolphins by pretty much taking away tyreek.

    I believe his original film notes and defensive game plan from SB 20 is in the HOF from when he was a coordinator and beat the Bills. He also was able to ground the greatest show on turf in the 01 SB.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I think I mashed the wrong button on the poll. Let me explain.

    I do consider BB the greatest coach of all time, though I dont know if i would go so far as saying he is by far the greatest. I also think he could have had more success had he never been a GM. He is not a good GM in my opinion, but I think his personality type just requires him to have 100% control over whatever situation he finds himself in.

    I also would call him the GOAT of watching/interpreting game film. he is pretty legendary for his ability to pick apart an opponent's film and be able to take away their top weapons. He even did this last week vs the dolphins by pretty much taking away tyreek.

    I believe his original film notes and defensive game plan from SB 20 is in the HOF from when he was a coordinator and beat the Bills. He also was able to ground the greatest show on turf in the 01 SB.

    Excellent analysis!

    For those always knocking Belichick and his choice of players over the years. In my opinion I blame Robert Kraft for that. While this is between Kraft and Belichick, I doubt if it will ever become public info, I believe that Kraft likely instructs Belichick to be as frugal as possible in putting together a team. Sort of in the same way that the baseball A's owner does to Billy Beane.

    I didn't analyze it and I'm not about to, but perhaps the Patriots are up there with other teams as far as spending. However there are all sorts of other terms and conditions in player contracts. I have no doubt that Belichick keeps those terms and conditions as beneficial as possible to the Patriots and not to the player. So that the Patriots are as profitable as possible.

    Don't forget to us the NFL is entertainment, but to most if not all NFL owners it's a business. Profits first and winning second is likely if not definitely the business model of all professional sports teams. It's only a question of degree.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    The Patriots have been known to.place the franchise tag on their kicker, Belichick has always de valued players and that is one of my biggest sticking points on him

    Kraft is notoriously cheap when it comes to contracts but I'm sure Hoodie has his hand in it

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    If he had done well after Brady left, my answer would be an emphatic yes. With Brady gone, he's been mediocre at best, but he's also getting old. Tom Landry and Connie Mack were both examples of a great coach and a great baseball manager, but they stayed around for too long.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think I've said this before, may have been someplace else, that I've never in my lifetime seen anyone as intricately knowledgeable about football than Bill Belichick. To just brush that off as if it hardly didn't mean anything in the Patriots GOAT championship run, and place most of the credit on Tom Brady, in my view is just a little bit silly.

    On Youtube, Belichick does like a 20 minute dissertation on the long snapper position. Yes, that's right, the long snapper position on various techniques and strategies regarding that. And if I'm remembering right, he did it off the cuff at a normal press conference, not something he did with prepared notes at a seminar.

    Since Belichick did that on such a simplistic position as long snapping, think about what he must know about quarterback, etc.

    Give Tom Brady credit where credit is due, very smart guy, and he soaked up that knowledge from Belichick like a sponge. I've always given Brady due credit in the Patriots GOAT run. But the majority of the credit, and Brady has even stated this over the years, has to go to Bill Belichick.

    Yes, Brady won another Super Bowl in Tampa. Does anyone really think that those numerous lessons and superior knowledge learned from Bill Belichick didn't have something to do with that?

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    Belichick will never beat Shula’s winning percentage.

    Reid and Tomlin could surpass his if he keeps his losing up.

    Shula invented the counter run trap offense.
    Belichick invented how to have a sub .500 winning percentage without Brady.

    Not only will he never be the Goat, but Top 5 would only be a gift from Brady

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    Lombardi being #1 is fine by me though.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:
    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

    ESPN doesn't like Belichick for the reason I'm not going to post in this forum. I'm surprised they didn't have him last.

    BTW - ESPN is doing so well lately. How many layoffs have they had? As well as precipitous ratings decline. So much for their judgment on talent. 🤣

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how far that list would have to extend before you'd get to Matt Eberflus

  • He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    It's difficult for me to accept Belichick as a great coach, he had the greatest quarterback of all time to bolster his record and has marred his reputation with repeated cheating scandals. He might be one of the most overrated coaches in all of football.

    The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @RiveraFamilyCollect said:
    It's difficult for me to accept Belichick as a great coach, he had the greatest quarterback of all time to bolster his record and has marred his reputation with repeated cheating scandals. He might be one of the most overrated coaches in all of football.

    I thought he was a decent captain of a very successful ship.

    Perk dog corrected me on his good moral conduct though.

    I’m not anti BB, but I also feel he never belongs in ESPN’s top 5 of all time.

    All of those 5 were either great innovators, or builders of nothing into something very special.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In that Super Bowl where the Patriots beat the Eagles, there was that supposed cheating scandal where the Patriots were stealing the Eagles signals. BS. I don't know of a single Eagles fan who was bugged by that possibility.

    Besides, stealing signals is all part of any sport. Even in little league for crying out loud, we tried to figure out the signals the opponent's third base coach was giving. Was that so egregious?

    Deflategate - another so-called cheating scandal that was much ado about nothing. But if it was done, of course it was Tom Brady who told the ball boy to do that. Don't blame that one on Bill Belichick.

    I remember when Tom Landry was basically the first NFL coach to use a computer for analysis to try and win football games. Because the other coaches at that time didn't know how to use a computer, they were making all sorts of silly accusations against Landry. I don't recall if the word "cheating" was used, but "unfair advantage" was often used. More cry baby antics from losers.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    The Patriots have been known to.place the franchise tag on their kicker, Belichick has always de valued players and that is one of my biggest sticking points on him

    Kraft is notoriously cheap when it comes to contracts but I'm sure Hoodie has his hand in it

    I would imagine that after the first couple titles Kraft has basically given him the keys to the kingdom to do what he wants. He was never the nicest guy but I get the sense that during that run his ego basically just took over that he can plug and play anyone and still win hence the devaluation of players and break downs in the relationships with them which ultimately lead to Brady leaving

  • @perkdog said:
    The Patriots have been known to.place the franchise tag on their kicker, Belichick has always de valued players and that is one of my biggest sticking points on him

    Kraft is notoriously cheap when it comes to contracts but I'm sure Hoodie has his hand in it

    Maybe they rubbed Kraft the wrong way :#

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

    ESPN doesn't like Belichick for the reason I'm not going to post in this forum. I'm surprised they didn't have him last.

    BTW - ESPN is doing so well lately. How many layoffs have they had? As well as precipitous ratings decline. So much for their judgment on talent. 🤣

    ESPN just understands the same thing I understand.

    Shula turned a putrid Dolphins AFL team into an NFL dynasty with his own innovative offense.

    Lombardi turned a below average Packer team into a juggernaut.

    Noll took over an absolutely abysmal Steelers franchise and with his drafting and coaching expertise turned them into a dynasty.

    Belichick has done NOTHING like that. His average teams stay average. He’s an average coach at best.

    Hopefully the light will turn on someday for many who think he’s great.

    Just look at his record at Cleveland and NE without Brady.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    Doug Pederson was 52-46 as a head coach.

    Art Shell was 56-52 as a coach.

    There are many other non-greats who have similar winning coaching records.

    Belichick without Brady does not have a winning record.

    This season ain’t looking too pretty either.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:
    I think I've said this before, may have been someplace else, that I've never in my lifetime seen anyone as intricately knowledgeable about football than Bill Belichick. To just brush that off as if it hardly didn't mean anything in the Patriots GOAT championship run, and place most of the credit on Tom Brady, in my view is just a little bit silly.

    On Youtube, Belichick does like a 20 minute dissertation on the long snapper position. Yes, that's right, the long snapper position on various techniques and strategies regarding that. And if I'm remembering right, he did it off the cuff at a normal press conference, not something he did with prepared notes at a seminar.

    Since Belichick did that on such a simplistic position as long snapping, think about what he must know about quarterback, etc.

    I’m so happy you pointed out to us about how knowledgeable he is about the long snapper position.
    Sounds like he has perfected that knowledge and expertise through years of experience watching the teams he coached without Brady punt so much.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @stevek said:
    In that Super Bowl where the Patriots beat the Eagles, there was that supposed cheating scandal where the Patriots were stealing the Eagles signals. BS. I don't know of a single Eagles fan who was bugged by that possibility.

    Besides, stealing signals is all part of any sport. Even in little league for crying out loud, we tried to figure out the signals the opponent's third base coach was giving. Was that so egregious?

    Deflategate - another so-called cheating scandal that was much ado about nothing. But if it was done, of course it was Tom Brady who told the ball boy to do that. Don't blame that one on Bill Belichick.

    I remember when Tom Landry was basically the first NFL coach to use a computer for analysis to try and win football games. Because the other coaches at that time didn't know how to use a computer, they were making all sorts of silly accusations against Landry. I don't recall if the word "cheating" was used, but "unfair advantage" was often used. More cry baby antics from losers.

    deflate gate was an absolute joke. a huge giant nothing-burger. good grief, Aaron Rodgers admitted at the time that he liked his balls inflated above the normal pressure.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

    ESPN doesn't like Belichick for the reason I'm not going to post in this forum. I'm surprised they didn't have him last.

    BTW - ESPN is doing so well lately. How many layoffs have they had? As well as precipitous ratings decline. So much for their judgment on talent. 🤣

    ESPN just understands the same thing I understand.

    Shula turned a putrid Dolphins AFL team into an NFL dynasty with his own innovative offense.

    Lombardi turned a below average Packer team into a juggernaut.

    Noll took over an absolutely abysmal Steelers franchise and with his drafting and coaching expertise turned them into a dynasty.

    Belichick has done NOTHING like that. His average teams stay average. He’s an average coach at best.

    Hopefully the light will turn on someday for many who think he’s great.

    Just look at his record at Cleveland and NE without Brady.

    Okay so the Patriots who had never won a Super Bowl, then Belichick takes over and the Patriots win 6 Super Bowls. But that doesn't count. I understand. 😉

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:
    Doug Pederson was 52-46 as a head coach.

    Art Shell was 56-52 as a coach.

    There are many other non-greats who have similar winning coaching records.

    Belichick without Brady does not have a winning record.

    This season ain’t looking too pretty either.

    I've clearly stated in other posts that Belichick isn't the coach he used to be. When folks get older, most simply lose the energy, innovation, and intellect that they used to have. That's why rarely there is an older singer say in their 70's who writes a hit song. Rarely it's seen an older player also say in their 70's at the final table of the WSOP.

    Frankly, in that game with the Eagles I watched a few weeks ago, Belichick in my view made some suspect calls that I don't think he would have made say ten years ago. Same players, same set of circumstances, and I think the Belichick from ten years ago would have won that game.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bud Grant was just as good a coach, just didn't have a couple of offensive weapons to go with Tarkenton.
    You need a great owner, organization, head coach, defense and offense, including QB to create and maintain a "dynasty". The Packers had it with Lombardi.
    Steelers, Cowboys, Broncos and 49ers all had great runs, but the Patriots kept it together for longer than anyone else. I'm interested to see where KC goes from here, they seem to have it all right now.
    Football is a team game and you need a great team from ownership on down to win.
    I don't see how you can determine which coach of any of the above mentioned teams was actually the best, but if you need to give it to Belichic, go ahead.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2023 6:22AM

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:
    I think I've said this before, may have been someplace else, that I've never in my lifetime seen anyone as intricately knowledgeable about football than Bill Belichick. To just brush that off as if it hardly didn't mean anything in the Patriots GOAT championship run, and place most of the credit on Tom Brady, in my view is just a little bit silly.

    On Youtube, Belichick does like a 20 minute dissertation on the long snapper position. Yes, that's right, the long snapper position on various techniques and strategies regarding that. And if I'm remembering right, he did it off the cuff at a normal press conference, not something he did with prepared notes at a seminar.

    Since Belichick did that on such a simplistic position as long snapping, think about what he must know about quarterback, etc.

    I’m so happy you pointed out to us about how knowledgeable he is about the long snapper position.
    Sounds like he has perfected that knowledge and expertise through years of experience watching the teams he coached without Brady punt so much.

    I thought that field goals counted for 3 points and many times are instrumental in winning football games.

    BTW - Buddy Ryan used to say that the punter is the defense's best friend. He was right.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Non Patriots fans might not be familiar with the manner of Bill Parcell's exit from New England. It really rubbed me the wrong way. That being said, I think he should be in any conversation about best head coaches ever.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    Is there a button that combines Top 5 & He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title?

    Remove Bill Belichick the GM and he's been a phenomenal head coach during his time in NE. I know that we all dig on him now on the regular but his defensive game plans that have proved vital in winning many big games over the 20+ years that he's been in NE but have always been overshadowed by Brady's fantastic play.

    I've watched 99.9% of all of his games in NE and imo he's been the best NFL HC during that stretch. Others may disagree. Perk has a point about how unlikable BB is overall but where we're talking about Bill strictly as a Head Coach in this thread so I went with Top 5.

    I missed out on Lombardi then only caught the end of careers for Shula,Landry,Noll & Madden. I caught portions of Walsh,Gibbs & Levy and was around for most ,if not all, of Parcells,Andy Reid & Jimmy Johnson.
    IMHO BB stacks up with all of them and I think that any future playoffs success may decide on whether he should own the top spot or not.

    There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune. Bill Belichick still has time to change public opinion on how great of a HC he his but will his ego & frugalness as a GM allow that to happen? 🤷‍♂️

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:
    Is there a button that combines Top 5 & He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title?

    Remove Bill Belichick the GM and he's been a phenomenal head coach during his time in NE. I know that we all dig on him now on the regular but his defensive game plans that have proved vital in winning many big games over the 20+ years that he's been in NE but have always been overshadowed by Brady's fantastic play.

    I've watched 99.9% of all of his games in NE and imo he's been the best NFL HC during that stretch. Others may disagree. Perk has a point about how unlikable BB is overall but where we're talking about Bill strictly as a Head Coach in this thread so I went with Top 5.

    I missed out on Lombardi then only caught the end of careers for Shula,Landry,Noll & Madden. I caught portions of Walsh,Gibbs & Levy and was around for most ,if not all, of Parcells,Andy Reid & Jimmy Johnson.
    IMHO BB stacks up with all of them and I think that any future playoffs success may decide on whether he should own the top spot or not.

    There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune. Bill Belichick still has time to change public opinion on how great of a HC he his but will his ego & frugalness as a GM allow that to happen? 🤷‍♂️

    "There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune."

    That's exactly what happened with me. To ignore all that winning in my view would be silly, especially in this salary cap era.

    Have other QB's had greater physical skills than Tom Brady? Of course, Tom I'm sure would be the first to admit that. But Brady gets the most out of his body with unparalleled focus and concentration during the game. Plus a killer instinct and desire to win that truly is amazing.

    Debate who was more responsible for the Patriots run, the quarterback or coach? However there is no debate over the success model. A quarterback with the attributes mentioned, and a coach who in my opinion has the most brilliant knowledge ever in football, who game planned magnificently for Brady to execute, and Tom did that magnificently.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    @stevek said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Is there a button that combines Top 5 & He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title?

    Remove Bill Belichick the GM and he's been a phenomenal head coach during his time in NE. I know that we all dig on him now on the regular but his defensive game plans that have proved vital in winning many big games over the 20+ years that he's been in NE but have always been overshadowed by Brady's fantastic play.

    I've watched 99.9% of all of his games in NE and imo he's been the best NFL HC during that stretch. Others may disagree. Perk has a point about how unlikable BB is overall but where we're talking about Bill strictly as a Head Coach in this thread so I went with Top 5.

    I missed out on Lombardi then only caught the end of careers for Shula,Landry,Noll & Madden. I caught portions of Walsh,Gibbs & Levy and was around for most ,if not all, of Parcells,Andy Reid & Jimmy Johnson.
    IMHO BB stacks up with all of them and I think that any future playoffs success may decide on whether he should own the top spot or not.

    There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune. Bill Belichick still has time to change public opinion on how great of a HC he his but will his ego & frugalness as a GM allow that to happen? 🤷‍♂️

    "There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune."

    That's exactly what happened with me. To ignore all that winning in my view would be silly, especially in this salary cap era.

    Have other QB's had greater physical skills than Tom Brady? Of course, Tom I'm sure would be the first to admit that. But Brady gets the most out of his body with unparalleled focus and concentration during the game. Plus a killer instinct and desire to win that truly is amazing.

    Debate who was more responsible for the Patriots run, the quarterback or coach? However there is no debate over the success model. A quarterback with the attributes mentioned, and a coach who in my opinion has the most brilliant knowledge ever in football, who game planned magnificently for Brady to execute, and Tom did that magnificently.

    I think in Belichick's case he needs to have an overwhelming argument over all of the other great HC's out there. He's got the 6SBs (+ 2 more as DC in NY) which are unmatched but IMHO he still needs to add his resume to put some more distance between Bill and the rest of the field.

    BB needs 20 total wins to pass Don Shula's record of 34 and although its possible to get them by next season,he's likely looking at the 2025 season for when he passes Shula. Once he has the most total wins to go along with that # of rings, There'd be a tough case to make that he isn't the best HC ever,

    I know that people will point out not winning without Brady but IIRC:
    1. Shula never won without Griese (someone could correct me if I'm wrong there)
    2. Chuck Noll never won a SB without Bradshaw.
    3. Tom Landry never won a SB without Roger Staubach
    4. Walsh did win with both Montana then Young but doesn't have the total Rings or wins that BB has but he's definitely close.
    5. Gibbs won SBs with 3 different QBs in Theismann,Doug Williams & Mark Rypien. Great accomplishments but he's usually not one of the top names when talking GOAT head coaches.
    6. Some may say that Vince Lombardi is the best coach ever,including maybe Bill Belichick, but his career accomplishments (season/playoffs wins & SB success) doesn't come close to matching Belichick's.

    What this debate really comes down to like all of these GOAT arguments is,personal preference. Pick a name and someone will always have a rebuttal with another name. Doesn't matter which sport we're talking it always the same case.

    How's Fluffy doing? Any chance of proof of life picks? 😉 You've been gone awhile now, welcome back.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @stevek said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Is there a button that combines Top 5 & He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title?

    Remove Bill Belichick the GM and he's been a phenomenal head coach during his time in NE. I know that we all dig on him now on the regular but his defensive game plans that have proved vital in winning many big games over the 20+ years that he's been in NE but have always been overshadowed by Brady's fantastic play.

    I've watched 99.9% of all of his games in NE and imo he's been the best NFL HC during that stretch. Others may disagree. Perk has a point about how unlikable BB is overall but where we're talking about Bill strictly as a Head Coach in this thread so I went with Top 5.

    I missed out on Lombardi then only caught the end of careers for Shula,Landry,Noll & Madden. I caught portions of Walsh,Gibbs & Levy and was around for most ,if not all, of Parcells,Andy Reid & Jimmy Johnson.
    IMHO BB stacks up with all of them and I think that any future playoffs success may decide on whether he should own the top spot or not.

    There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune. Bill Belichick still has time to change public opinion on how great of a HC he his but will his ego & frugalness as a GM allow that to happen? 🤷‍♂️

    "There was a time not to long ago where many fans wouldn't consider Tom Brady as the best ever but he just kept on winning SBs and now a majority of those same fans have changed their tune."

    That's exactly what happened with me. To ignore all that winning in my view would be silly, especially in this salary cap era.

    Have other QB's had greater physical skills than Tom Brady? Of course, Tom I'm sure would be the first to admit that. But Brady gets the most out of his body with unparalleled focus and concentration during the game. Plus a killer instinct and desire to win that truly is amazing.

    Debate who was more responsible for the Patriots run, the quarterback or coach? However there is no debate over the success model. A quarterback with the attributes mentioned, and a coach who in my opinion has the most brilliant knowledge ever in football, who game planned magnificently for Brady to execute, and Tom did that magnificently.

    I think in Belichick's case he needs to have an overwhelming argument over all of the other great HC's out there. He's got the 6SBs (+ 2 more as DC in NY) which are unmatched but IMHO he still needs to add his resume to put some more distance between Bill and the rest of the field.

    BB needs 20 total wins to pass Don Shula's record of 34 and although its possible to get them by next season,he's likely looking at the 2025 season for when he passes Shula. Once he has the most total wins to go along with that # of rings, There'd be a tough case to make that he isn't the best HC ever,

    I know that people will point out not winning without Brady but IIRC:
    1. Shula never won without Griese (someone could correct me if I'm wrong there)
    2. Chuck Noll never won a SB without Bradshaw.
    3. Tom Landry never won a SB without Roger Staubach
    4. Walsh did win with both Montana then Young but doesn't have the total Rings or wins that BB has but he's definitely close.
    5. Gibbs won SBs with 3 different QBs in Theismann,Doug Williams & Mark Rypien. Great accomplishments but he's usually not one of the top names when talking GOAT head coaches.
    6. Some may say that Vince Lombardi is the best coach ever,including maybe Bill Belichick, but his career accomplishments (season/playoffs wins & SB success) doesn't come close to matching Belichick's.

    What this debate really comes down to like all of these GOAT arguments is,personal preference. Pick a name and someone will always have a rebuttal with another name. Doesn't matter which sport we're talking it always the same case.

    How's Fluffy doing? Any chance of proof of life picks? 😉 You've been gone awhile now, welcome back.

    Lombardi passed at age 57. A great coach without question, but to add hypotheticals to the equation just isn't reality. He could have perhaps become greater or maybe worse, we shall never know. The coaches with many more wins is a fact, and that cannot be ignored just because Lombardi is among the most popular figures in football history.

    Just like any great coach in history, they have to have great players behind them or success just isn't possible. It would be silly to think that Belichick could have had completely all that success without Tom Brady. However it's just as silly to conclude that Belichick couldn't have had any success without Tom.

    Brady as we know was a sixth round draft pick. Belichick sure did something right to mold Tom into a top rated NFL QB, eventually becoming the GOAT. Brady has clearly stated that fact a number of times. I sure don't recall Terry Bradshaw ever saying that about Chuck Noll.

    Football is an extremely complex game. Which is why in the overall scheme of things I have to give more of the credit to Belichick than to one individual player for their phenomenal run. Don't forget, that while QB is the most important position in football, it's still only one out of eleven on offense, and none out of eleven on defense.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's going to be a tough run in New England if it takes three seasons to get that record. If for some reason he doesn't have it in three...wow.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @thisistheshow said:
    It's going to be a tough run in New England if it takes three seasons to get that record. If for some reason he doesn't have it in three...wow.

    34 wins in 3 seasons would be 3 11 win seasons and 1 playoff game. I dont know if BB is doing that with the team as currently constituted. they have already played 2 this year. its going to be tough.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 430 ✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

    ESPN doesn't like Belichick for the reason I'm not going to post in this forum. I'm surprised they didn't have him last.

    BTW - ESPN is doing so well lately. How many layoffs have they had? As well as precipitous ratings decline. So much for their judgment on talent. 🤣

    ESPN just understands the same thing I understand.

    Shula turned a putrid Dolphins AFL team into an NFL dynasty with his own innovative offense.

    Lombardi turned a below average Packer team into a juggernaut.

    Noll took over an absolutely abysmal Steelers franchise and with his drafting and coaching expertise turned them into a dynasty.

    Belichick has done NOTHING like that. His average teams stay average. He’s an average coach at best.

    Hopefully the light will turn on someday for many who think he’s great.

    Just look at his record at Cleveland and NE without Brady.

    So Belichick had average teams but he still was able to go to the Super Bowl and win 6 championships. How the heck can you win 6 and not be a great coach.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    @craig44 said:

    @thisistheshow said:
    It's going to be a tough run in New England if it takes three seasons to get that record. If for some reason he doesn't have it in three...wow.

    34 wins in 3 seasons would be 3 11 win seasons and 1 playoff game. I dont know if BB is doing that with the team as currently constituted. they have already played 2 this year. its going to be tough.

    Bill only needs 20, I meant to type 347 total wins for Shula not 34.

  • Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭✭

    @pdoidoi said:

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    ESPN absolutely nailed the Top 5 greatest coaches of all time, even though I don’t like Shula not being #1.

    ESPN doesn't like Belichick for the reason I'm not going to post in this forum. I'm surprised they didn't have him last.

    BTW - ESPN is doing so well lately. How many layoffs have they had? As well as precipitous ratings decline. So much for their judgment on talent. 🤣

    ESPN just understands the same thing I understand.

    Shula turned a putrid Dolphins AFL team into an NFL dynasty with his own innovative offense.

    Lombardi turned a below average Packer team into a juggernaut.

    Noll took over an absolutely abysmal Steelers franchise and with his drafting and coaching expertise turned them into a dynasty.

    Belichick has done NOTHING like that. His average teams stay average. He’s an average coach at best.

    Hopefully the light will turn on someday for many who think he’s great.

    Just look at his record at Cleveland and NE without Brady.

    So Belichick had average teams but he still was able to go to the Super Bowl and win 6 championships. How the heck can you win 6 and not be a great coach.

    They werent average teams. They were average at somethings but consistently had multiple HOF and Pro Bowl players during the dynasty run

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:
    I think I've said this before, may have been someplace else, that I've never in my lifetime seen anyone as intricately knowledgeable about football than Bill Belichick. To just brush that off as if it hardly didn't mean anything in the Patriots GOAT championship run, and place most of the credit on Tom Brady, in my view is just a little bit silly.

    On Youtube, Belichick does like a 20 minute dissertation on the long snapper position. Yes, that's right, the long snapper position on various techniques and strategies regarding that. And if I'm remembering right, he did it off the cuff at a normal press conference, not something he did with prepared notes at a seminar.

    Since Belichick did that on such a simplistic position as long snapping, think about what he must know about quarterback, etc.

    I’m so happy you pointed out to us about how knowledgeable he is about the long snapper position.
    Sounds like he has perfected that knowledge and expertise through years of experience watching the teams he coached without Brady punt so much.

    I thought that field goals counted for 3 points and many times are instrumental in winning football games.

    You’re absolutely correct, but that’s mostly what he did his first five years with a losing record in Cleveland, punt and kick field goals. TDs were few and far between.

    The real GOATs Lombardi and Shula changed bad teams into Super Bowl champion’s immediately.

    Why did your GOAT fail with a losing record in Cleveland for 5 long years whereas my GOATs took bad teams and turned them into dynasties immediately?

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2023 4:09AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,048 ✭✭✭✭✭

    fourforfour and i disagree on how today's CU-Oregon game is going to play out, but i couldn't agree more with his assessment of BB. i don't think anyone here will dispute that he's a great coach. but last i checked, this is a GOAT discussion. for those arguing on behalf of him, how can you with a clear conscience elevate him to that lofty status when he's below .500 without Brady at the helm? moreover, do you realize that that man has never won a single playoff game as a head coach when Tom Brady wasn't his starting quarterback?

    great coaches? absolutely, he's in the conversation.

    greatest of all time? until he does anything without Brady, this is a silly discussion.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2023 6:05AM

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Numerous examples in sports and other endeavors in life can be sighted for someone who began slowly or even failed at various pursuits before the lightbulb moment happens, and it all comes together for success.

    Robert Kraft when he hired Belichick, knew he was hiring a genius, as despite Bill's mediocre record in Cleveland, many accolades were bestowed on him for coaching wisdom and football knowledge.

    You are conveniently forgetting that it was Belichick who drafted Brady and molded Brady into a winner, as if that shouldn't count for anything. Well the bottom line is the winning Super Bowls, and that you can't spin although I guess you may keep trying.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Numerous examples in sports and other endeavors in life can be sighted for someone who began slowly or even failed at various pursuits before the lightbulb moment happens, and it all comes together for success.

    Robert Kraft when he hired Belichick, knew he was hiring a genius, as despite Bill's mediocre record in Cleveland, many accolades were bestowed on him for coaching wisdom and football knowledge.

    You are conveniently forgetting that it was Belichick who drafted Brady and molded Brady into a winner,

    Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

    Belichick was a center in college.
    That’s why he knows a lot about the long snap.

    Brady was picked in the 6th round only because Bill knew nothing about QB potential and brought in a guy to help him find a QB.

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Numerous examples in sports and other endeavors in life can be sighted for someone who began slowly or even failed at various pursuits before the lightbulb moment happens, and it all comes together for success.

    Robert Kraft when he hired Belichick, knew he was hiring a genius, as despite Bill's mediocre record in Cleveland, many accolades were bestowed on him for coaching wisdom and football knowledge.

    You are conveniently forgetting that it was Belichick who drafted Brady and molded Brady into a winner,

    Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

    Belichick was a center in college.
    That’s why he knows a lot about the long snap.

    Brady was picked in the 6th round only because Bill knew nothing about QB potential and brought in a guy to help him find a QB.

    I knew all about this Rehbein recommendation, although I didn't recall his name. Sorry to say, but you sorely lack a fundamental understanding of how business works, and becomes and stays successful. Remember that professional sports is a business.

    Every business, especially large ones like the Patriots or any big company out there, has staff, advisors, vice presidents, counselors, etc or whatever they may be called, to gather and put together information so that the CEO or person at the top can make the final call. Whether it's a marketing idea or NFL draft picks.

    I wonder how many "advisors" on other teams recommended Tom Brady to the owner, but the owner didn't heed their advice. Perhaps they thought Brady might even go undrafted, and then they could just invite him to training camp as cannon fodder.

    Have you ever seen the pic of Brady shirtless right before the draft? He looks like he wouldn't be a good high school quarterback with that body. Well Belichick thru his wisdom and intuition, ignored that pic and chose to use other factors in selecting Tom.

    It was Bill Belichick who made the final call to draft Tom Brady, not Dick Rehbein. No matter how you wish to spin it, that is a stone cold fact.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Numerous examples in sports and other endeavors in life can be sighted for someone who began slowly or even failed at various pursuits before the lightbulb moment happens, and it all comes together for success.

    Robert Kraft when he hired Belichick, knew he was hiring a genius, as despite Bill's mediocre record in Cleveland, many accolades were bestowed on him for coaching wisdom and football knowledge.

    You are conveniently forgetting that it was Belichick who drafted Brady and molded Brady into a winner,

    Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

    Belichick was a center in college.
    That’s why he knows a lot about the long snap.

    Brady was picked in the 6th round only because Bill knew nothing about QB potential and brought in a guy to help him find a QB.

    I knew all about this Rehbein recommendation, although I didn't recall his name. Sorry to say, but you sorely lack a fundamental understanding of how business works, and becomes and stays successful. Remember that professional sports is a business.

    Every business, especially large ones like the Patriots or any big company out there, has staff, advisors, vice presidents, counselors, etc or whatever they may be called, to gather and put together information so that the CEO or person at the top can make the final call. Whether it's a marketing idea or NFL draft picks.

    I wonder how many "advisors" on other teams recommended Tom Brady to the owner, but the owner didn't heed their advice. Perhaps they thought Brady might even go undrafted, and then they could just invite him to training camp as cannon fodder.

    Have you ever seen the pic of Brady shirtless right before the draft? He looks like he wouldn't be a good high school quarterback with that body. Well Belichick thru his wisdom and intuition, ignored that pic and chose to use other factors in selecting Tom.

    It was Bill Belichick who made the final call to draft Tom Brady, not Dick Rehbein. No matter how you wish to spin it, that is a stone cold fact.

    Wrong again.
    According to BB Brady was the best QB value pick at that point in the draft.
    As you said, no one ever dreamt that Brady would do what he did in the NFL.

    Ask yourself this.
    If Brady was that great coming out of Michigan, wouldn’t he go before round 6 ?

    C’mon man.

    You’re giving credit where it ain’t due

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Numerous examples in sports and other endeavors in life can be sighted for someone who began slowly or even failed at various pursuits before the lightbulb moment happens, and it all comes together for success.

    Robert Kraft when he hired Belichick, knew he was hiring a genius, as despite Bill's mediocre record in Cleveland, many accolades were bestowed on him for coaching wisdom and football knowledge.

    You are conveniently forgetting that it was Belichick who drafted Brady and molded Brady into a winner,

    Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

    Belichick was a center in college.
    That’s why he knows a lot about the long snap.

    Brady was picked in the 6th round only because Bill knew nothing about QB potential and brought in a guy to help him find a QB.

    I knew all about this Rehbein recommendation, although I didn't recall his name. Sorry to say, but you sorely lack a fundamental understanding of how business works, and becomes and stays successful. Remember that professional sports is a business.

    Every business, especially large ones like the Patriots or any big company out there, has staff, advisors, vice presidents, counselors, etc or whatever they may be called, to gather and put together information so that the CEO or person at the top can make the final call. Whether it's a marketing idea or NFL draft picks.

    I wonder how many "advisors" on other teams recommended Tom Brady to the owner, but the owner didn't heed their advice. Perhaps they thought Brady might even go undrafted, and then they could just invite him to training camp as cannon fodder.

    Have you ever seen the pic of Brady shirtless right before the draft? He looks like he wouldn't be a good high school quarterback with that body. Well Belichick thru his wisdom and intuition, ignored that pic and chose to use other factors in selecting Tom.

    It was Bill Belichick who made the final call to draft Tom Brady, not Dick Rehbein. No matter how you wish to spin it, that is a stone cold fact.

    Wrong again.
    According to BB Brady was the best QB value pick at that point in the draft.
    As you said, no one ever dreamt that Brady would do what he did in the NFL.

    Ask yourself this.
    If Brady was that great coming out of Michigan, wouldn’t he go before round 6 ?

    C’mon man.

    You’re giving credit where it ain’t due

    Now you're just spinning wheels. You fully know the imprecise nature of the NFL draft, especially when it comes to quarterbacks. The bottom line is Belichick chose Brady and the others didn't.

    Further still is Belichick molded Tom into the QB that he became. Who knows if the other head coaches could have or would have done that? A personality clash or whatever, Tom develops a bad attitude, and it negatively affects his performance and he never blossoms. Sixth round draft picks have a short leash when it comes to making and staying on a NFL team.

    I've watched Belichick when he is mic'd up during a game and at practice. He seems to instinctively know what to say to motivate the individual player based on the situation. Without question, Brady has thrived on that.

    Do you comprehend yet how difficult it is to put together a perennial winning team in this salary cap era? Could Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Walsh, etc have been as successful as they were under salary cap restrictions? Perhaps, but then again perhaps not. Walsh and Landry probably. Shula, I'm not sure. I have my doubts about Lombardi.

  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 7,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    I just watched a recent Brady motivational interview yesterday and in Tom's own words he said that it was Belichick that taught him how to be a student of the game.

    All this back & forth seems pointless when NE doesn't have a 20+yr run like they just had without both Tom and Bill. It was much easier for Brady to go sign with a ready made contender in TB and have success than it was for Belichick to start over with first Cam Newton then a rookie Mac Jones while flipping over his roster to straighten out their salary cap problems.

    Also let's not forget that Belichick had his heir apparent at QB in Jimmy G until the owner made him trade Garoppolo and stick with Brady (which obviously paid off for NE with 2 more SB trips going 1-1.) Could Jimmy have turned into NE's version of Steve Young? Possibly when he did lead his team to a SB appearence a few seasons after giving the chance to start just like what happened with Young. Say what you will about Jimmy's injury history but he was tailor made for Belichick's offensive system.

    I guess this topic of Belichick being the greatest coach ever or not really comes down to who watched him game by game for all these years and who didn't. For so many years Brady's greatness overshadowed years worth of games where Belichick's gameplan to takeaway what the opposing team does best on either side of the ball. if you weren't watching every game then listening to the postgame podium interviews then you probably just saw Brady's highlights and stats.

    Everyone wants to keep pointing out his record without Brady but there's two distinctions here...
    1. His record without Brady when the team was built as a contender was pretty good going 14-6 with Cassel/Garoppolo/Brissett at QB while Tom was injured/suspended. Sure NE didn't make the playoffs in 2008 with Brady down but they did still finish 11-5 that year which is usually more than enough to get in.
    2. When it wasn't conisdered a contender and the roster was lacking talent Bill's record was 30-38 with Bledsoe/Newton/Jones at the helm.

    Since the 2018-19 seasons NE has lost All-Pro/Pro-Bowl/High End Starters in Brady,Edelman,Gronk,joe Thuney,Shaq Mason,Donta Higtower,Marcus Cannon,Stephon Gilmore,Devin Mccourty,Stephen Gostkowski,Nate Ebner,Jamie Collins, JC Jackson,James White,Patrick Chung,Kyle Van Noy & Duron Harmon, Losing Josh McDaniels & Matt Pattricia(the DC not the OC) also was a huge blow.

    For the past 10 years Pats fans have been listening to other fans tell us how bad life will be post Brady and now at the start of year 4 of that major regime change, Belichick is somehow this failure because he's not pulling wins out of his ass. That first year with Cam was pretty much a let's see how this goes year but since then its been all about turning over the roster.

    With all of the flack we hear about Mac not being a good QB then these past two seasons tell us that Bill Belichick is good for 8 wins alone. Give him competent QB play and they're good enough for a 10-7 record and a wild card appearence,Give him spotty QB play and they're an 8-9 team.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

  • pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 430 ✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Because Brady had no experience in the NFL .When Belichick lost you gave him the blame but when he wins you do not give him the credit. Sounds like you have a bit of dislike for him. Belichick was the captain , when they lost he went down with the ship, when they won he was celebrated. I feel both Brady and Belichick deserve most of the credit. I think in all their wins it was for the most part a team wins.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

    I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a helluva football coach.

    It's hilarious that Jerry Jones with the biggest sports owner ego perhaps since George Steinbrenner, refused to allow Jimmy Johnson to have the credit Jimmy deserved in those winning Super Bowls. That Jerry was the one instrumental in winning those Super Bowls. Not even Jerry's dog believed that one. 😆

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

    I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a helluva football coach.

    It's hilarious that Jerry Jones with the biggest sports owner ego perhaps since George Steinbrenner, refused to allow Jimmy Johnson to have the credit Jimmy deserved in those winning Super Bowls. That Jerry was the one instrumental in winning those Super Bowls. Not even Jerry's dog believed that one. 😆

    Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor, sometimes I seriously thing the man is evil, he can be most rotten man I've ever seen at times, and honestly Steve, if the Cowboys never win another Super Bowl under Jones's ownership again, he deserves it.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

    I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a helluva football coach.

    It's hilarious that Jerry Jones with the biggest sports owner ego perhaps since George Steinbrenner, refused to allow Jimmy Johnson to have the credit Jimmy deserved in those winning Super Bowls. That Jerry was the one instrumental in winning those Super Bowls. Not even Jerry's dog believed that one. 😆

    Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor, sometimes I seriously thing the man is evil, he can be most rotten man I've ever seen at times, and honestly Steve, if the Cowboys never win another Super Bowl under Jones's ownership again, he deserves it.

    "Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor"

    I didn't know that. How childishly pathetic. Shameful really.

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