Who on this entire planet doesn't think that Vince Lombardi wasn't a great football coach? I mean the Super Bowl trophy is named after him for crying out loud.
That being said, the fact is that Lombardi sadly passed at a young age, and ya simply can't be a GOAT based on hypotheticals that he may have accomplished.
Every time I try to get out of this thread, they pull me back in.
@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
The team was already trending downward under Pete Carroll, from when Parcells left, with a worsening record each year. When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency. He gutted the roster over the next two seasons, including that draft.
After every team in the NFL passed on him 5 times, Bellichek and the Pats drafted Tom Brady.
@craig44 already explained how big a deal it was for Bellichek to sit Drew Bledsoe, the leagues highest paid player, a former number one overall pick who had taken the Pats to a SuperBowl once already.
At minimum, without Bill Bellichek, there’s a chance Tom Brady never even gets started in the NFL or gets a break when he needed it.
You definitely needed both men in my estimation to create what the Patriots ended up becoming…
…losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉
I’m assuming you wouldn’t like to compare the Packers trending downward before Lombardi to the Pats trending downward before Belichick ?
Got news for you.
Lombardi turned a 1 win team into a powerhouse with 7 wins the next year.
BB turned an 8 win team into a 5 win team, and then an 0-2 team before Brady saved him.
See the difference?
Yes, I see you cherry picking a lot of worthless data to suit some silly narrative that Tom Brady would have somehow won anywhere and that he carried an awful coach like Bill Bellichek (who, by the way, had already won SuperBowl rings as a highly respected and valued coach when Tommy was still in grade school).
People who try to put forth this narrative - that Tom Brady was born as a demigod destined to be the greatest quarterback alive - actually do more to diminish him than they do to deify him.
The truth casts him in a much more flattering and realistic light: Tom Brady was a pretty average quarterback when he was drafted but he put winning football games above all else in his life and worked incredibly smart and incredibly hard at his craft to become one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play professional football and hands down the best quarterback of his era.
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@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
The team was already trending downward under Pete Carroll, from when Parcells left, with a worsening record each year. When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency. He gutted the roster over the next two seasons, including that draft.
After every team in the NFL passed on him 5 times, Bellichek and the Pats drafted Tom Brady.
@craig44 already explained how big a deal it was for Bellichek to sit Drew Bledsoe, the leagues highest paid player, a former number one overall pick who had taken the Pats to a SuperBowl once already.
At minimum, without Bill Bellichek, there’s a chance Tom Brady never even gets started in the NFL or gets a break when he needed it.
You definitely needed both men in my estimation to create what the Patriots ended up becoming…
…losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉
I’m assuming you wouldn’t like to compare the Packers trending downward before Lombardi to the Pats trending downward before Belichick ?
Got news for you.
Lombardi turned a 1 win team into a powerhouse with 7 wins the next year.
BB turned an 8 win team into a 5 win team, and then an 0-2 team before Brady saved him.
See the difference?
Yes, I see you cherry picking a lot of worthless data to suit some silly narrative that Tom Brady would have somehow won anywhere and that he carried an awful coach like Bill Bellichek (who, by the way, had already won SuperBowl rings as a highly respected and valued coach when Tommy was still in grade school).
I find it interesting that when someone is shown that they are wrong they use terms like “useless data” to defend their mistake.
Data is always useful. Whether it supports our view or changes it.
Also whether you want to believe or deny that BB was only a sub .500 head coach without Brady is entirely up to you, because the data tells us he was.
Unless you feel that’s just more useless data that goes against your views.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
@stevek said:
Who on this entire planet doesn't think that Vince Lombardi wasn't a great football coach? I mean the Super Bowl trophy is named after him for crying out loud.
That being said, the fact is that Lombardi sadly passed at a young age, and ya simply can't be a GOAT based on hypotheticals that he may have accomplished.
Every time I try to get out of this thread, they pull me back in.
This Steelers fan says Super Bowl MVP Franco Harris’ PSU needs a natty this year in college football.
Or a Heinz Ward 3 peat with Georgia.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
I think we are trying to answer the unanswerable.
perhaps the question should be phrased: Who was the most accomplished coach of all time?
there have been many good cases made in this thread, but I think that ultimately, It takes good players to be a "successful" coach. Successful as in winning games/championships.
You could put Lombardi, Shula, Walsh, Parcells and BB all on the staff of the 2008 Lions or the 1990 Patriots and those teams will not sniff the playoffs. It however, would not mean that any of those were bad coaches. their coaching abilities would stay exactly the same, just with terrible players.
I do not think that Chuck Noll suddenly forgot how to coach in 1981 and only won 2 playoff games for the rest of his career. I would suppose the quality of players on his team diminished greatly.
the same could be said for any number of these great coaches.
I am sure there is a fantastic/world class coach somewhere at a DIII college in the middle of nowhere who will never get a chance. But if he did, perhaps he would become the greatest.
Belichick's time in Cleveland was not the same situation we see with other HC's. Sure his first 2-3 years were when he came in and started flipping over the roster. Usually a new HC gets hired and starts filtering out players brought in by the previous regime. Sometimes it takes a few years to finally put your own team on the field, (these days its much harder in the salary cap era.)
In Belichick's case by year 4 he led them to an 11-5 record including the playoffs. Then during year 5 the owner decided to move the team from to Baltimore and their entire season got derailed. How many NFL head coches have been in that very same situation? Maybe a handful at most and that might be generous.
Also I think comparing taking over a team in the 50/60's to doing the same in the year 2000 is being pretty disingenuous. Back then there were 12 teams total,the draft was 26 rounds and ther was no losing players to free agency or dealing with a salary cap.
Back then you could build a solid team and ride it out for the forseeable future. These days the NFL is geared towards parity which makes Belichick & Brady's run even more impressive.
@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
@4for4 said:
The bottom line is this.
If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.
Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.
He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.
BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.
Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.
alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.
bwaaa haaaa haaaaa
Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.
Reid has a .641 wp
BB is .660
Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.
Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?
The team was already trending downward under Pete Carroll, from when Parcells left, with a worsening record each year. When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency. He gutted the roster over the next two seasons, including that draft.
After every team in the NFL passed on him 5 times, Bellichek and the Pats drafted Tom Brady.
@craig44 already explained how big a deal it was for Bellichek to sit Drew Bledsoe, the leagues highest paid player, a former number one overall pick who had taken the Pats to a SuperBowl once already.
At minimum, without Bill Bellichek, there’s a chance Tom Brady never even gets started in the NFL or gets a break when he needed it.
You definitely needed both men in my estimation to create what the Patriots ended up becoming…
…losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉
I’m assuming you wouldn’t like to compare the Packers trending downward before Lombardi to the Pats trending downward before Belichick ?
Got news for you.
Lombardi turned a 1 win team into a powerhouse with 7 wins the next year.
BB turned an 8 win team into a 5 win team, and then an 0-2 team before Brady saved him.
See the difference?
Yes, I see you cherry picking a lot of worthless data to suit some silly narrative that Tom Brady would have somehow won anywhere and that he carried an awful coach like Bill Bellichek (who, by the way, had already won SuperBowl rings as a highly respected and valued coach when Tommy was still in grade school).
I find it interesting that when someone is shown that they are wrong they use terms like “useless data” to defend their mistake.
Data is always useful. Whether it supports our view or changes it.
Also whether you want to believe or deny that BB was only a sub .500 head coach without Brady is entirely up to you, because the data tells us he was.
Unless you feel that’s just more useless data that goes against your views.
The best comparison would not be apples to oranges or what Bellichek did with the Cleveland Browns. That’s an entirely different group of players, coaches, different ownership and a different time period. Maybe, just maybe, the one season in the middle of the run for the Patriots where Tom Brady missed the entire season would be a bit more fair to everyone involved?
2007 - 16-0 w Brady
2008 - 11-5 w Cassell
2009 - 10-6 w Brady
To me, that speaks volumes more about Bill Bellichek and his ability to coach without Brady than what he did with the Browns, who might be the worst run franchise in all of professional sports in the last 40 years.
And I’ve said this before but Bill Bellichek definitely needed Tom Brady and I am not trying to diminish Brady by saying so. But Tom definitely needed Bill, too. I have no doubts about that at all.
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Great players being paired with great coaches leads to championship caliber play. They you still need some luck. An immaculate reception, a helmet catch, a tuck rule, a sure footed kicker, a bad call…it’s a confluence of events.
Look at the poor Bills of the early 90s - the talent is exceptional and if Scott Norwood blasts in through maybe it’s the start of four straight wins, instead.
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@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Great players being paired with great coaches leads to championship caliber play. They you still need some luck. An immaculate reception, a helmet catch, a tuck rule, a sure footed kicker, a bad call…it’s a confluence of events.
Look at the poor Bills of the early 90s - the talent is exceptional and if Scott Norwood blasts in through maybe it’s the start of four straight wins, instead.
If you actually look at the data you’ll see that Jim Kelly cost them those games.
As did Staubach against Pittsburgh the first time.
QB play is so important.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Wrong.
Charles Barkley was a great player.
Phil Jackson wins nothing in Chicago if he’s there instead of Jordan.
Tom Brady = Michael Jordan
Of course, that isn't what I was saying but you knew that. Give Phil the 2016 76ers - somehow I doubt they win a title. Give him that exact roster 5 years in a row - think anybody will consider him a great coach when he wins 15 games a year with them? Of course not.
Still waiting to hear what you’d call BB’s first year with NE turning an 8 win team into a 5 win team being that you said Lombardi did nothing.
Thanks
I addressed that, you ignored it. I asked what they did his second season?
So basically what we've learned today about Belichick's first season in NE compared to the first years of Walsh/49ers, Noll/Steelers & Johnson/Cowboys is that BB had the same amount of wins as those other 3 great coaches combined. 😎
Forget career wins & ring totals, we could just use that stat as to why he's better than them. 😉
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Great players being paired with great coaches leads to championship caliber play. They you still need some luck. An immaculate reception, a helmet catch, a tuck rule, a sure footed kicker, a bad call…it’s a confluence of events.
Look at the poor Bills of the early 90s - the talent is exceptional and if Scott Norwood blasts in through maybe it’s the start of four straight wins, instead.
If you actually look at the data you’ll see that Jim Kelly cost them those games.
As did Staubach against Pittsburgh the first time.
QB play is so important.
Gotta ask…
…any chance you are you Scott Norwood?
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I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
Well I enjoyed the thread, and very happy that we all agreed that one day Nick Sirianni will be the GOAT head coach, and Jalen Hurts will be the GOAT quarterback.
The only thing we disagreed on was the year it will happen. But that's okay, highly intelligent and extremely knowledgeable football minds can sometimes have different opinions.
I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
It was more about the fact that when I mentioned the name, he threw down the Batman smoke pellets and left the thread!
😉
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4for4 - you simply ignore the bad seasons from the coaches in your top 5/6 list and solely focus on said bad seasons for BB. That is cherry picking your data.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB? How did Walsh do without a HOF QB? How did Noll do without a HOF QB? Discounting BB accomplishments with Brady only makes sense if you apply the same logic to the other coaches in your top 5/6.
FYI Noll's Steelers were terrible (12-30) until they got Franco Harris in 1972. Just adding Bradshaw (HOF QB) and they were terrible (11-17). There was no coaching miracle there, he simply got a sufficient number of HOF players to compete.
Walsh was such a genius that he didn't have Montana as his opening day starter his first season, and was 8-24 his first two seasons.
Lombardi never coached a season without a HOF QB.
There are certainly legitimate arguments for other coaches being the GOAT but basing it solely on how BB has fared without Brady isn't a fair argument unless you apply a similar filter to the other coaches in the comparison.
You can't just wash away Belichick's time in Cleveland by saying they improved and there were behind the scenes stuff in his last year. He failed there. No excuses.
Belichick has failed without Brady in New England too. No excuses.
The one constant(other than Bill) in the NE success was Brady. Brady went elsewhere as an old man and still won...and Bill did not do well before or after Brady.
@stevek that is an excellent point about no free agency allowing Noll, Shula, etc keep dynasties.
However, free agency also helps the good teams in terms of other good players wanting to sign there(even for less money). They just reload. So that does offset that a little there.
How many key free agents did New England lose in Belichick's tenure and how many did they gain?
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
You can't just wash away Belichick's time in Cleveland by saying they improved and there were behind the scenes stuff in his last year. He failed there. No excuses.
I never said he didn't fail but he did turn that team around and into the playoffs then a season later the owner turned it all into a shiatshow before taking the team to another state.
Since you ended your comment with a rhetorical question,tell me how many head coaches in nfl history were told 2 months into their season that the team was moving out of state,changing the team name and firing the head coach at season's end?
Let's not act like that was your typical season for an NFL coach & team. All reports say that Modell made it public in the first week of November that season but many people on that organization had to know they were moving long before then.
Obviously, his tenure there was not a roaring success but "very bad" is way overstating it.
just curious, what would you call one playoff victory in nine seasons without the greatest quarterback of all time as his disposal?
and let me guess, you're gonna make the argument that BB still would have won 8 rings if Tom hadn't been around?
dude he wouldn't be anywhere to be found in this discussion if Brady hadn't been his quarterback............that's abundantly clear with all of the rampant success he has enjoyed in his head coaching career without him. after this season it'll be one playoff win in 10 seasons. if he keeps chasing the record it may be 1 in 12 or 13.
that's GOAT material, right Tabe? 😂
There are actually some people out there who believe Belichick would gave won those Super Bowls without Brady, I'm not one of them lol
@fergie23 said:
4for4 - you simply ignore the bad seasons from the coaches in your top 5/6 list and solely focus on said bad seasons for BB. That is cherry picking your data.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB? How did Walsh do without a HOF QB? How did Noll do without a HOF QB? Discounting BB accomplishments with Brady only makes sense if you apply the same logic to the other coaches in your top 5/6.
FYI Noll's Steelers were terrible (12-30) until they got Franco Harris in 1972. Just adding Bradshaw (HOF QB) and they were terrible (11-17). There was no coaching miracle there, he simply got a sufficient number of HOF players to compete.
Walsh was such a genius that he didn't have Montana as his opening day starter his first season, and was 8-24 his first two seasons.
Lombardi never coached a season without a HOF QB.
There are certainly legitimate arguments for other coaches being the GOAT but basing it solely on how BB has fared without Brady isn't a fair argument unless you apply a similar filter to the other coaches in the comparison.
Robb
Wrong again Sir.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB ? Just fine.
Noll is in the top 5 because of his great coaching plus great drafting but he did well without one also.
How did George Halas do all those years without a Brady or Montana ?
How about Reid in Philly ?
Are you seriously saying that Brady and Montana are on the same level as Bradshaw, Griese, and Donovan McNabb ?
Walsh got lucky with Montana.
BB got lucky with Brady, but Walsh invented an O system that still exists and BB has invented nothing.
Go ahead and tell everyone here that Montana and Brady are similar to Griese and Bradshaw. Go ahead.
That’s why Lombardi, Shula, Halas are the top 3 in everyone’s book.
Lombardi, Halas and Noll could do better without their HOF QB’s. So could Shula when Morral filled in.
How about BB ?
How’d he do with a Griese or Donovan McNabb ?
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Wrong.
Charles Barkley was a great player.
Phil Jackson wins nothing in Chicago if he’s there instead of Jordan.
Tom Brady = Michael Jordan
Of course, that isn't what I was saying but you knew that. Give Phil the 2016 76ers - somehow I doubt they win a title. Give him that exact roster 5 years in a row - think anybody will consider him a great coach when he wins 15 games a year with them? Of course not.
Still waiting to hear what you’d call BB’s first year with NE turning an 8 win team into a 5 win team being that you said Lombardi did nothing.
Thanks
I addressed that, you ignored it. I asked what they did his second season?
BB was 0-2 in his second season.
A huge failure once again.
He was 5-13-0 with NE in his first two years until an injury to Bledsoe saved the franchise.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
@stevek said:
Well I enjoyed the thread, and very happy that we all agreed that one day Nick Sirianni will be the GOAT head coach, and Jalen Hurts will be the GOAT quarterback.
The only thing we disagreed on was the year it will happen. But that's okay, highly intelligent and extremely knowledgeable football minds can sometimes have different opinions.
Welcome back.
I only returned because fergie23 is uttering more clam chowder 😀
Who was a better coach?
Andy Reid or Joe Paterno
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
It was more about the fact that when I mentioned the name, he threw down the Batman smoke pellets and left the thread!
😉
Which was worse ?
Yankees losing four straight to Boston in the ALCS, or NE losing to the Giants as a 12 point favorite in the Super Bowl. 😂
Vince and Chuck never had the pleasure of enjoying something that pleasurable.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
You can't just wash away Belichick's time in Cleveland by saying they improved and there were behind the scenes stuff in his last year. He failed there. No excuses.
Let's not act like that was your typical season for an NFL coach & team.
Just an FYI. Every season, unless you are a mega superstar in the NFL, is exactly the same.
It’s every guy fighting for his job, knowing that there is someone just as talented as him ready to step in.
BB had the same starting QB and RBs and basically the same team that failing season.
No excuses when everyone is fighting for a paycheck. And what a paycheck it is.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
@fergie23 said:
4for4 - you simply ignore the bad seasons from the coaches in your top 5/6 list and solely focus on said bad seasons for BB. That is cherry picking your data.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB? How did Walsh do without a HOF QB? How did Noll do without a HOF QB? Discounting BB accomplishments with Brady only makes sense if you apply the same logic to the other coaches in your top 5/6.
FYI Noll's Steelers were terrible (12-30) until they got Franco Harris in 1972. Just adding Bradshaw (HOF QB) and they were terrible (11-17). There was no coaching miracle there, he simply got a sufficient number of HOF players to compete.
Walsh was such a genius that he didn't have Montana as his opening day starter his first season, and was 8-24 his first two seasons.
Lombardi never coached a season without a HOF QB.
There are certainly legitimate arguments for other coaches being the GOAT but basing it solely on how BB has fared without Brady isn't a fair argument unless you apply a similar filter to the other coaches in the comparison.
I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
It was more about the fact that when I mentioned the name, he threw down the Batman smoke pellets and left the thread!
😉
Which was worse ?
Yankees losing four straight to Boston in the ALCS, or NE losing to the Giants as a 12 point favorite in the Super Bowl. 😂
Vince and Chuck never had the pleasure of enjoying something that pleasurable.
I am still not sure why Vegas odds have anything to do with how great or not great a coach is. It truly does not matter.
If it did, I am sure you would bring up that Don Shula's 69 Colts team that lost SB 3 was an 18-point favorite.
I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
It was more about the fact that when I mentioned the name, he threw down the Batman smoke pellets and left the thread!
😉
Which was worse ?
Yankees losing four straight to Boston in the ALCS, or NE losing to the Giants as a 12 point favorite in the Super Bowl. 😂
Vince and Chuck never had the pleasure of enjoying something that pleasurable.
You have some pretty good takes, man. Stop trying to troll people.
But to answer the question you posed? As a Yankees fan and a Giants fan?
I would say those two are pretty close. If compared to a neutral starting point, the high of the SuperBowl win and the low of the losing of four straight were about the same distance from the neutral starting point.
Though, in hindsight as a sports fan I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I’m glad I got to see each. They are two of the most iconic occurrences in the history of sports.
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LOL 4for4, you ignored multiple Steeler seasons where Noll coached without a HOF QB to cherry pick one where he was 4-0 for part of a season. That means we could pick 2016 for BB when he was 3-1 without Brady. Based on your logic, that makes him the equal of Lombardi and Noll.
"How’d he do with a Griese or Donovan McNabb ?" Griese is a HOFer and McNabb was a 6 time pro bowler and finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2000.
Noll didn't do anything without his HOF QB. Here are some of his non-HOF QB seasons:
1969 1-13
1988 5-11
1986 6-10
1985 7-9
In total Noll coached 1969 and 1984 - 1991 without Bradshaw on his roster. His cumulative record: 61-80. Not sure there is any evidence of his magnificent drafting ability after the 70s.
I always find it somewhat surprising how Tom Brady’s fans are so willing to be disrespectful to the Patriots dynasty of which both he and Bill Bellichek were merely parts.
There were so many incredible football players that were major players in those championships.
I get this is the internet so it comes with the territory but half the time it gets so ridiculous that I’m waiting for the really good stuff…
“Tom Brady saved my cousins life in high school, no joke. Tom was the lifeguard at the local swim club and my cousin was drowning in the deep end on I saw Tom Brady walk on the water, reach in, pick up my cousin Marky, then turn around and carry him back, on the water, to the side. He wasn’t even wet…”
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Whoops it was 9 games last year that Reid gained.
Chiefs won 17 pats won 8.
Well this won’t take long. Billy should either get fired or quit instead of wilting away in a sea of mediocrity.
@4for4 said:
BB was 0-2 in his second season.
A huge failure once again.
New England played only 2 games in 2001? Why? Did something happen? Are you sure you're not mistaken? I just did a Google search and that search tells me New England won the Super Bowl in Bill's second season. I'm not certain but I'm fairly sure that's not "a huge failure".
Rather than just data, though, I’d like to provide further context.
In the last 33 years, the Cleveland Browns have three total seasons where they appeared in the playoffs. In addition, there are only two season where they actually won a playoff game, too, and one of those seasons was under Bill Bellichek who coached five seasons there. The following season after they’d made the playoffs, they got off to a tough start with starting QB Vinny Testeverde missing one fourth of the season’s games. At season’s end, the Cleveland Browns ceased to exist for 4 years as Art Modell moved the team in the middle of the night and set up shop in Baltimore.
So, Bill Bellichek took over a 3-13 Browns team that was last in division in 1991 and then went 5-11, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 over the next 4 years, culminating in the aforementioned playoff win (ironically, it was over the Patriots, then subsequently losing to the Steelers).
There’s 45 losses built into his time in Cleveland - data acknowledged - but I think to say he did a poor job coaching the Browns while he was there shows a complete lack of understanding of the importance and impact of an NFL coach.
Given the state of the franchise pre and post his five years and that fact at 28 years since he left they have yet to top an 11 win season as a franchise, while it’s not quite water into wine it’s still pretty miraculous what he was able to accomplish as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.
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Rather than just data, though, I’d like to provide further context.
In the last 33 years, the Cleveland Browns have three total seasons where they appeared in the playoffs. In addition, there are only two season where they actually won a playoff game, too, and one of those seasons was under Bill Bellichek who coached five seasons there. The following season after they’d made the playoffs, they got off to a tough start with starting QB Vinny Testeverde missing one fourth of the season’s games. At season’s end, the Cleveland Browns ceased to exist for 4 years as Art Modell moved the team in the middle of the night and set up shop in Baltimore.
So, Bill Bellichek took over a 3-13 Browns team that was last in division in 1991 and then went 5-11, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 over the next 4 years, culminating in the aforementioned playoff win (ironically, it was over the Patriots, then subsequently losing to the Steelers).
There’s 45 losses built into his time in Cleveland - data acknowledged - but I think to say he did a poor job coaching the Browns while he was there shows a complete lack of understanding of the importance and impact of an NFL coach.
Given the state of the franchise pre and post his five years and that fact at 28 years since he left they have yet to top an 11 win season as a franchise, while it’s not quite water into wine it’s still pretty miraculous what he was able to accomplish as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.
Anybody at that time worth anything with football knowledge, lauded the job Bill Belichick did in Cleveland. Then he finally became head coach again.
His huge career success as head coach with the Patriots, while of course is better than anyone could expect when he began, really shouldn't be a big surprise considering his genius.
Rather than just data, though, I’d like to provide further context.
In the last 33 years, the Cleveland Browns have three total seasons where they appeared in the playoffs. In addition, there are only two season where they actually won a playoff game, too, and one of those seasons was under Bill Bellichek who coached five seasons there. The following season after they’d made the playoffs, they got off to a tough start with starting QB Vinny Testeverde missing one fourth of the season’s games. At season’s end, the Cleveland Browns ceased to exist for 4 years as Art Modell moved the team in the middle of the night and set up shop in Baltimore.
So, Bill Bellichek took over a 3-13 Browns team that was last in division in 1991 and then went 5-11, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 over the next 4 years, culminating in the aforementioned playoff win (ironically, it was over the Patriots, then subsequently losing to the Steelers).
There’s 45 losses built into his time in Cleveland - data acknowledged - but I think to say he did a poor job coaching the Browns while he was there shows a complete lack of understanding of the importance and impact of an NFL coach.
Given the state of the franchise pre and post his five years and that fact at 28 years since he left they have yet to top an 11 win season as a franchise, while it’s not quite water into wine it’s still pretty miraculous what he was able to accomplish as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.
The Browns were in the AFC championship just two years prior to his arrival and in the playoffs the year prior to that. Browns franchise was bad, but not when he took over.
From 1985-1989 the Browns were in the playoffs every year. Bill didn't improve anything. Bill had one winning season out of five the five he was there. The previous five to his arrival the Browns only had one LOSING season and were in the playoffs every year besides the one off year. That is not an improvement.
Rather than just data, though, I’d like to provide further context.
In the last 33 years, the Cleveland Browns have three total seasons where they appeared in the playoffs. In addition, there are only two season where they actually won a playoff game, too, and one of those seasons was under Bill Bellichek who coached five seasons there. The following season after they’d made the playoffs, they got off to a tough start with starting QB Vinny Testeverde missing one fourth of the season’s games. At season’s end, the Cleveland Browns ceased to exist for 4 years as Art Modell moved the team in the middle of the night and set up shop in Baltimore.
So, Bill Bellichek took over a 3-13 Browns team that was last in division in 1991 and then went 5-11, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 over the next 4 years, culminating in the aforementioned playoff win (ironically, it was over the Patriots, then subsequently losing to the Steelers).
There’s 45 losses built into his time in Cleveland - data acknowledged - but I think to say he did a poor job coaching the Browns while he was there shows a complete lack of understanding of the importance and impact of an NFL coach.
Given the state of the franchise pre and post his five years and that fact at 28 years since he left they have yet to top an 11 win season as a franchise, while it’s not quite water into wine it’s still pretty miraculous what he was able to accomplish as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.
The Browns were in the AFC championship just two years prior to his arrival and in the playoffs the year prior to that. Browns franchise was bad, but not when he took over.
From 1985-1989 the Browns were in the playoffs every year. Bill didn't improve anything. Bill had one winning season out of five the five he was there. The previous five to his arrival the Browns only had one LOSING season and were in the playoffs every year besides the one off year. That is not an improvement.
Doesn’t this just speak to coaching? There’s a two year gap from Marty Schottenheimer to Bill Bellichek and in that span they went from contender to doormat.
If you don’t believe it can happen that easily, look at the (rather long list of) New York Giants coaches since Tom Coughlin.
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Yeah, speaks to coaching not being any better than the franchise just recently had. Certainly does not speak to Bellichick to being a genius when he had the same QB that just went to AFC championship game two years prior. SO either the QB isn't as important as everyone say, or Bellichick isn't as good as everyone is saying here.
ANd if the reason is "that is how fast things change," then shouldn't a genius also make them a contender within a year? Instead he didn't have a winning record until year four and they still weren't serious contenders. Then they sucked the next year again.
Cle had five year success before Bill, had an off year, and a genius did nothing with them,
And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
I think Marty was/is a tremendous coach, yes. Tremendous record everywhere, just about.
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And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
I think Marty was/is a tremendous coach, yes. Tremendous record everywhere, just about.
I agree 100% about Marty.
Marty may have been a better coach than Bill. Only difference was he never had Brady to carry him.
4for4 did you start this post just to bash Belichick . I first thought this was maybe a good posting that you started but if you read most all your comments all you do is bash Belichick over and over and over again.
As I stated earlier this is coming from a very big 1970's Pirates and Steelers fan and forever Clemente fan.
He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title
@pdoidoi said:
4for4 did you start this post just to bash Belichick . I first thought this was maybe a good posting that you started but if you read most all your comments all you do is bash Belichick over and over and over again.
As I stated earlier this is coming from a very big 1970's Pirates and Steelers fan and forever Clemente fan.
I got this distinct impression a while ago as well. I think he has an axe to grind with BB
Comments
Who on this entire planet doesn't think that Vince Lombardi wasn't a great football coach? I mean the Super Bowl trophy is named after him for crying out loud.
That being said, the fact is that Lombardi sadly passed at a young age, and ya simply can't be a GOAT based on hypotheticals that he may have accomplished.
Every time I try to get out of this thread, they pull me back in.
Yes, I see you cherry picking a lot of worthless data to suit some silly narrative that Tom Brady would have somehow won anywhere and that he carried an awful coach like Bill Bellichek (who, by the way, had already won SuperBowl rings as a highly respected and valued coach when Tommy was still in grade school).
People who try to put forth this narrative - that Tom Brady was born as a demigod destined to be the greatest quarterback alive - actually do more to diminish him than they do to deify him.
The truth casts him in a much more flattering and realistic light: Tom Brady was a pretty average quarterback when he was drafted but he put winning football games above all else in his life and worked incredibly smart and incredibly hard at his craft to become one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play professional football and hands down the best quarterback of his era.
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I find it interesting that when someone is shown that they are wrong they use terms like “useless data” to defend their mistake.
Data is always useful. Whether it supports our view or changes it.
Also whether you want to believe or deny that BB was only a sub .500 head coach without Brady is entirely up to you, because the data tells us he was.
Unless you feel that’s just more useless data that goes against your views.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
This Steelers fan says Super Bowl MVP Franco Harris’ PSU needs a natty this year in college football.
Or a Heinz Ward 3 peat with Georgia.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
I think we are trying to answer the unanswerable.
perhaps the question should be phrased: Who was the most accomplished coach of all time?
there have been many good cases made in this thread, but I think that ultimately, It takes good players to be a "successful" coach. Successful as in winning games/championships.
You could put Lombardi, Shula, Walsh, Parcells and BB all on the staff of the 2008 Lions or the 1990 Patriots and those teams will not sniff the playoffs. It however, would not mean that any of those were bad coaches. their coaching abilities would stay exactly the same, just with terrible players.
I do not think that Chuck Noll suddenly forgot how to coach in 1981 and only won 2 playoff games for the rest of his career. I would suppose the quality of players on his team diminished greatly.
the same could be said for any number of these great coaches.
I am sure there is a fantastic/world class coach somewhere at a DIII college in the middle of nowhere who will never get a chance. But if he did, perhaps he would become the greatest.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Belichick's time in Cleveland was not the same situation we see with other HC's. Sure his first 2-3 years were when he came in and started flipping over the roster. Usually a new HC gets hired and starts filtering out players brought in by the previous regime. Sometimes it takes a few years to finally put your own team on the field, (these days its much harder in the salary cap era.)
In Belichick's case by year 4 he led them to an 11-5 record including the playoffs. Then during year 5 the owner decided to move the team from to Baltimore and their entire season got derailed. How many NFL head coches have been in that very same situation? Maybe a handful at most and that might be generous.
Also I think comparing taking over a team in the 50/60's to doing the same in the year 2000 is being pretty disingenuous. Back then there were 12 teams total,the draft was 26 rounds and ther was no losing players to free agency or dealing with a salary cap.
Back then you could build a solid team and ride it out for the forseeable future. These days the NFL is geared towards parity which makes Belichick & Brady's run even more impressive.
Eric
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The best comparison would not be apples to oranges or what Bellichek did with the Cleveland Browns. That’s an entirely different group of players, coaches, different ownership and a different time period. Maybe, just maybe, the one season in the middle of the run for the Patriots where Tom Brady missed the entire season would be a bit more fair to everyone involved?
2007 - 16-0 w Brady
2008 - 11-5 w Cassell
2009 - 10-6 w Brady
To me, that speaks volumes more about Bill Bellichek and his ability to coach without Brady than what he did with the Browns, who might be the worst run franchise in all of professional sports in the last 40 years.
And I’ve said this before but Bill Bellichek definitely needed Tom Brady and I am not trying to diminish Brady by saying so. But Tom definitely needed Bill, too. I have no doubts about that at all.
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By the way the above data suggests that the Patriots were better off with Matt Cassell than Tom Brady because they won fewer games in 2009.
Is that a valid conclusion based on the data?
Does it somehow prove you wrong?
In my opinion, that is worthless, cherry picked data that adds very little to the larger discussion.
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Great players being paired with great coaches leads to championship caliber play. They you still need some luck. An immaculate reception, a helmet catch, a tuck rule, a sure footed kicker, a bad call…it’s a confluence of events.
Look at the poor Bills of the early 90s - the talent is exceptional and if Scott Norwood blasts in through maybe it’s the start of four straight wins, instead.
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Walsh as 2-14 his first season coaching the 49ers.
Noll was 1-13 his first season coaching the Steelers. Where was the miracle?
4for4 you are most certainly cherry picking your data.
Robb
Nice try fergie.
Noll inherited a 2 win Steelers team and they dropped to 1 win.
Walsh inherited a 2 win team and kept them at 2 wins.
Belichick inherited an 8 win NE team and dropped them to 5 wins his first year, and then 0 wins the following year until Brady rescued him.
I’m giving exact data while you have injected misleading data into the conversation.
I don’t cherry pick data Robb.
But you give misleading data as I just pointed out.
Have a good day sir.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
If you actually look at the data you’ll see that Jim Kelly cost them those games.
As did Staubach against Pittsburgh the first time.
QB play is so important.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Ok guys.
Beating a dead horse now.
Lots of respect for BB from me.
Enjoyed the chat very much !
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
I addressed that, you ignored it. I asked what they did his second season?
You're right, Lombardi winning a bunch of games in Green Bay totally means he won a bunch of Super Bowls and was mega-accomplished in Washington.
Jimmy Johnson was 1-15, taking over a 3-win team with a future HOF quarterback.
It's almost like first years with teams can be a bad indicator of a coach.
So basically what we've learned today about Belichick's first season in NE compared to the first years of Walsh/49ers, Noll/Steelers & Johnson/Cowboys is that BB had the same amount of wins as those other 3 great coaches combined. 😎
Forget career wins & ring totals, we could just use that stat as to why he's better than them. 😉
Eric
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Gotta ask…
…any chance you are you Scott Norwood?
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I mean, they averaged 18 points in those 4 Super Bowls and Kelly had a 2:7 TD:INT ratio. It's not that far-fetched to suggest that they win at least one, if not two, of those games if he hadn't sucked in them.
Well I enjoyed the thread, and very happy that we all agreed that one day Nick Sirianni will be the GOAT head coach, and Jalen Hurts will be the GOAT quarterback.
The only thing we disagreed on was the year it will happen. But that's okay, highly intelligent and extremely knowledgeable football minds can sometimes have different opinions.
It was more about the fact that when I mentioned the name, he threw down the Batman smoke pellets and left the thread!
😉
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4for4 - you simply ignore the bad seasons from the coaches in your top 5/6 list and solely focus on said bad seasons for BB. That is cherry picking your data.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB? How did Walsh do without a HOF QB? How did Noll do without a HOF QB? Discounting BB accomplishments with Brady only makes sense if you apply the same logic to the other coaches in your top 5/6.
FYI Noll's Steelers were terrible (12-30) until they got Franco Harris in 1972. Just adding Bradshaw (HOF QB) and they were terrible (11-17). There was no coaching miracle there, he simply got a sufficient number of HOF players to compete.
Walsh was such a genius that he didn't have Montana as his opening day starter his first season, and was 8-24 his first two seasons.
Lombardi never coached a season without a HOF QB.
There are certainly legitimate arguments for other coaches being the GOAT but basing it solely on how BB has fared without Brady isn't a fair argument unless you apply a similar filter to the other coaches in the comparison.
Robb
You can't just wash away Belichick's time in Cleveland by saying they improved and there were behind the scenes stuff in his last year. He failed there. No excuses.
Belichick has failed without Brady in New England too. No excuses.
The one constant(other than Bill) in the NE success was Brady. Brady went elsewhere as an old man and still won...and Bill did not do well before or after Brady.
@stevek that is an excellent point about no free agency allowing Noll, Shula, etc keep dynasties.
However, free agency also helps the good teams in terms of other good players wanting to sign there(even for less money). They just reload. So that does offset that a little there.
How many key free agents did New England lose in Belichick's tenure and how many did they gain?
I never said he didn't fail but he did turn that team around and into the playoffs then a season later the owner turned it all into a shiatshow before taking the team to another state.
Since you ended your comment with a rhetorical question,tell me how many head coaches in nfl history were told 2 months into their season that the team was moving out of state,changing the team name and firing the head coach at season's end?
Let's not act like that was your typical season for an NFL coach & team. All reports say that Modell made it public in the first week of November that season but many people on that organization had to know they were moving long before then.
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There are actually some people out there who believe Belichick would gave won those Super Bowls without Brady, I'm not one of them lol
Wrong again Sir.
How did Lombardi do without a HOF QB ? Just fine.
Noll is in the top 5 because of his great coaching plus great drafting but he did well without one also.
How did George Halas do all those years without a Brady or Montana ?
How about Reid in Philly ?
Are you seriously saying that Brady and Montana are on the same level as Bradshaw, Griese, and Donovan McNabb ?
Walsh got lucky with Montana.
BB got lucky with Brady, but Walsh invented an O system that still exists and BB has invented nothing.
Go ahead and tell everyone here that Montana and Brady are similar to Griese and Bradshaw. Go ahead.
That’s why Lombardi, Shula, Halas are the top 3 in everyone’s book.
Lombardi, Halas and Noll could do better without their HOF QB’s. So could Shula when Morral filled in.
How about BB ?
How’d he do with a Griese or Donovan McNabb ?
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
BB was 0-2 in his second season.
A huge failure once again.
He was 5-13-0 with NE in his first two years until an injury to Bledsoe saved the franchise.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Welcome back.
I only returned because fergie23 is uttering more clam chowder 😀
Who was a better coach?
Andy Reid or Joe Paterno
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Which was worse ?
Yankees losing four straight to Boston in the ALCS, or NE losing to the Giants as a 12 point favorite in the Super Bowl. 😂
Vince and Chuck never had the pleasure of enjoying something that pleasurable.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Just an FYI. Every season, unless you are a mega superstar in the NFL, is exactly the same.
It’s every guy fighting for his job, knowing that there is someone just as talented as him ready to step in.
BB had the same starting QB and RBs and basically the same team that failing season.
No excuses when everyone is fighting for a paycheck. And what a paycheck it is.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
very good argument here.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am still not sure why Vegas odds have anything to do with how great or not great a coach is. It truly does not matter.
If it did, I am sure you would bring up that Don Shula's 69 Colts team that lost SB 3 was an 18-point favorite.
right?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You have some pretty good takes, man. Stop trying to troll people.
But to answer the question you posed? As a Yankees fan and a Giants fan?
I would say those two are pretty close. If compared to a neutral starting point, the high of the SuperBowl win and the low of the losing of four straight were about the same distance from the neutral starting point.
Though, in hindsight as a sports fan I’d be lying if I didn’t admit that I’m glad I got to see each. They are two of the most iconic occurrences in the history of sports.
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LOL 4for4, you ignored multiple Steeler seasons where Noll coached without a HOF QB to cherry pick one where he was 4-0 for part of a season. That means we could pick 2016 for BB when he was 3-1 without Brady. Based on your logic, that makes him the equal of Lombardi and Noll.
"How’d he do with a Griese or Donovan McNabb ?" Griese is a HOFer and McNabb was a 6 time pro bowler and finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2000.
Noll didn't do anything without his HOF QB. Here are some of his non-HOF QB seasons:
1969 1-13
1988 5-11
1986 6-10
1985 7-9
In total Noll coached 1969 and 1984 - 1991 without Bradshaw on his roster. His cumulative record: 61-80. Not sure there is any evidence of his magnificent drafting ability after the 70s.
Robb
Entertaining discussion.
Belichick was a great co-captain on Brady’s ship.
He is a below average captain of his own ship.
I always find it somewhat surprising how Tom Brady’s fans are so willing to be disrespectful to the Patriots dynasty of which both he and Bill Bellichek were merely parts.
There were so many incredible football players that were major players in those championships.
I get this is the internet so it comes with the territory but half the time it gets so ridiculous that I’m waiting for the really good stuff…
“Tom Brady saved my cousins life in high school, no joke. Tom was the lifeguard at the local swim club and my cousin was drowning in the deep end on I saw Tom Brady walk on the water, reach in, pick up my cousin Marky, then turn around and carry him back, on the water, to the side. He wasn’t even wet…”
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It will be nice when belichik retires so Andy Reid can gain 14-15 wins on him every year instead of the current 7-8 per year.
BB fading fast 😆
Whoops it was 9 games last year that Reid gained.
Chiefs won 17 pats won 8.
Well this won’t take long. Billy should either get fired or quit instead of wilting away in a sea of mediocrity.
New England played only 2 games in 2001? Why? Did something happen? Are you sure you're not mistaken? I just did a Google search and that search tells me New England won the Super Bowl in Bill's second season. I'm not certain but I'm fairly sure that's not "a huge failure".
To each his own.
Rather than just data, though, I’d like to provide further context.
In the last 33 years, the Cleveland Browns have three total seasons where they appeared in the playoffs. In addition, there are only two season where they actually won a playoff game, too, and one of those seasons was under Bill Bellichek who coached five seasons there. The following season after they’d made the playoffs, they got off to a tough start with starting QB Vinny Testeverde missing one fourth of the season’s games. At season’s end, the Cleveland Browns ceased to exist for 4 years as Art Modell moved the team in the middle of the night and set up shop in Baltimore.
So, Bill Bellichek took over a 3-13 Browns team that was last in division in 1991 and then went 5-11, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5 over the next 4 years, culminating in the aforementioned playoff win (ironically, it was over the Patriots, then subsequently losing to the Steelers).
There’s 45 losses built into his time in Cleveland - data acknowledged - but I think to say he did a poor job coaching the Browns while he was there shows a complete lack of understanding of the importance and impact of an NFL coach.
Given the state of the franchise pre and post his five years and that fact at 28 years since he left they have yet to top an 11 win season as a franchise, while it’s not quite water into wine it’s still pretty miraculous what he was able to accomplish as the coach of the Cleveland Browns.
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Anybody at that time worth anything with football knowledge, lauded the job Bill Belichick did in Cleveland. Then he finally became head coach again.
His huge career success as head coach with the Patriots, while of course is better than anyone could expect when he began, really shouldn't be a big surprise considering his genius.
The Browns were in the AFC championship just two years prior to his arrival and in the playoffs the year prior to that. Browns franchise was bad, but not when he took over.
From 1985-1989 the Browns were in the playoffs every year. Bill didn't improve anything. Bill had one winning season out of five the five he was there. The previous five to his arrival the Browns only had one LOSING season and were in the playoffs every year besides the one off year. That is not an improvement.
Doesn’t this just speak to coaching? There’s a two year gap from Marty Schottenheimer to Bill Bellichek and in that span they went from contender to doormat.
If you don’t believe it can happen that easily, look at the (rather long list of) New York Giants coaches since Tom Coughlin.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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@1951WheatiesPremium
Yeah, speaks to coaching not being any better than the franchise just recently had. Certainly does not speak to Bellichick to being a genius when he had the same QB that just went to AFC championship game two years prior. SO either the QB isn't as important as everyone say, or Bellichick isn't as good as everyone is saying here.
ANd if the reason is "that is how fast things change," then shouldn't a genius also make them a contender within a year? Instead he didn't have a winning record until year four and they still weren't serious contenders. Then they sucked the next year again.
Cle had five year success before Bill, had an off year, and a genius did nothing with them,
@1951WheatiesPremium
And if Bill Belichick's failures in Cleveland are being explained away by saying Cleveland is an awful franchise, then how did Marty Schottenheimer go to the playoffs five straight years there just one year prior to Belichick, and with the same QB?
Should Marty Schottenheimer be labled the genius then??
I think Marty was/is a tremendous coach, yes. Tremendous record everywhere, just about.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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I agree 100% about Marty.
Marty may have been a better coach than Bill. Only difference was he never had Brady to carry him.
4for4 did you start this post just to bash Belichick . I first thought this was maybe a good posting that you started but if you read most all your comments all you do is bash Belichick over and over and over again.
As I stated earlier this is coming from a very big 1970's Pirates and Steelers fan and forever Clemente fan.
No... George Halas has the better claim to the greatest coach but there is no fair way of comparing the two. Probably in the top 10- not the top 5
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I got this distinct impression a while ago as well. I think he has an axe to grind with BB
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.