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Bill Belichick - Greatest coach ever ?

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

    I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a helluva football coach.

    It's hilarious that Jerry Jones with the biggest sports owner ego perhaps since George Steinbrenner, refused to allow Jimmy Johnson to have the credit Jimmy deserved in those winning Super Bowls. That Jerry was the one instrumental in winning those Super Bowls. Not even Jerry's dog believed that one. 😆

    Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor, sometimes I seriously thing the man is evil, he can be most rotten man I've ever seen at times, and honestly Steve, if the Cowboys never win another Super Bowl under Jones's ownership again, he deserves it.

    "Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor"

    I didn't know that. How childishly pathetic. Shameful really.

    It is shameful and childish, everything Jimmy did for that organization and that's the gratitude that he gets. Don't get me started on Mustache Jones, I might have to suspend him from avatar duty again!

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.

    This is revisionist history. The team improved his first two seasons and then won 11 games his fourth. Then, despite what others in this thread have said, they won a playoff game against New England. Yeah, it all came apart his 5th year but there's a whole lot behind the scenes that helped with that.

    Obviously, his tenure there was not a roaring success but "very bad" is way overstating it.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,745 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    Then, despite what others in this thread have said, they won a playoff game against New England.

    thank you for correcting me. he has indeed won a playoff game without Brady. one playoff win in nine seasons. that changes everything, and now he's thrust into the greatest coaches of all time discussion.

    you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:

    @Tabe said:

    Then, despite what others in this thread have said, they won a playoff game against New England.

    thank you for correcting me. he has indeed won a playoff game without Brady. one playoff win in nine seasons. that changes everything, and now he's thrust into the greatest coaches of all time discussion.

    He's already at the top of the list, didn't need to be "thrust" into anything.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After all, who's his competition?

    Shula, who was 2-4 in the Super Bowl, couldn't win with Dan Marino, and lost the Namath game?

    Noll, who won 4 but couldn't adjust when offensive rules changed (winning 10 games just once his final 12 seasons) and went with Mark Malone instead of drafting Dan Marino?

    Lombardi, who won 5 titles but only lasted 11 years and did nothing in Washington?

  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dan Marino is on some lists, if not many lists, as the most talented QB of all time.

    I'm trying to recall all the Super Bowls that Don Shula as head coach won with Dan Marino.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @Tabe said:

    @4for4 said:

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.

    This is revisionist history. The team improved his first two seasons and then won 11 games his fourth. Then, despite what others in this thread have said, they won a playoff game against New England. Yeah, it all came apart his 5th year but there's a whole lot behind the scenes that helped with that.

    Obviously, his tenure there was not a roaring success but "very bad" is way overstating it.

    Is it overstating it if he’s the greatest coach of all time ?

    He had a sub .500 winning percentage, and then you emphasize that Noll didn’t have a 10 win season ?

    Lol

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2023 12:44AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @Tabe said:
    After all, who's his competition?

    Lombardi, who won 5 titles but only lasted 11 years and did nothing in Washington?

    Lombardi took a 5-9-0 team and made them 7-5-2 in Washington and “did nothing”.

    Belichick was 6-10, 6-10, 5-11 in Cleveland and finished with a sub .500 winning percentage.

    Yet Lombardi “did nothing “, but Belichick wasn’t “very bad”.

    Lol

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2023 12:48AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:
    Dan Marino is on some lists, if not many lists, as the most talented QB of all time.

    I'm trying to recall all the Super Bowls that Don Shula as head coach won with Dan Marino.

    At the same time try to figure out how many Super Bowls BB won without Brady compared to how many Shula won.

    Next news will be Marino was as good as Brady.

    Shula and Halas have the best winning percentages in NFL history.

    I’m trying to remember BBs winning percentage without Brady.

    Good luck BB trying to beat Shula’s all time winning percentage without Brady.

    What’s the odds steveK ?

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2023 3:03AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    Noll took over a horrible Steelers franchise and did a miracle.

    Shula the same with Miami.

    Lombardi took over a bad Packers club and the same.
    Walsh with SF.
    Johnson a 1-15 Dallas team.

    BB took over a bad Cleveland team and did not do what those three did.

    He took over a bad NE team, went 5-11, then 0-2 until an injury to Bledsoe changed his fortunes.
    He didn’t have the football insight to start Brady over Bledsoe in his second year at NE.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2023 3:06AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think we can all agree on this:

    4for4 is the forum GOAT when it comes to nitpicking the NFL head coach GOAT. 😉

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    I put top 5.

    Every coach mentioned was paired with a great QB when they did their winning.

    For many great coaches who went to multiple places, they often brought their players and personnel with them when they did. And almost none when to a terrible organization and turned it around instead going someplace where there were already several pieces in place.

    Just like Tom Brady did not go alone to Tampa Bay, where again they already had a lot of pieces in place.

    It takes a confluence of events to produce a winner not one coach or one player.

    Bill’s a top 5 coach…

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    I put top 5.

    Every coach mentioned was paired with a great QB when they did their winning.

    For many great coaches who went to multiple places, they often brought their players and personnel with them when they did. And almost none when to a terrible organization and turned it around instead going someplace where there were already several pieces in place.

    Just like Tom Brady did not go alone to Tampa Bay, where again they already had a lot of pieces in place.

    It takes a confluence of events to produce a winner not one coach or one player.

    Bill’s a top 5 coach…

    I don't disagree with that, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. Basically all the other prospective GOAT coaches did their great winning before the salary cap was instituted in 1994. Now could these prospective GOAT coaches have done as well as they did with a salary cap in place? Very doubtful that they would have done as well. Simply because the salary cap by its nature is there to try to ensure equal competition throughout the league. To put it bluntly, the salary cap is there to punish winning teams, and reward losing teams.

    Well Bill Belichick, and ONLY Bill Belichick not only won games during this salary cap era, he excelled with a remarkable feat of winning six Super Bowls.

    In my view, that clearly and unequivocally makes him the GOAT.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    @stevek said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    I put top 5.

    Every coach mentioned was paired with a great QB when they did their winning.

    For many great coaches who went to multiple places, they often brought their players and personnel with them when they did. And almost none when to a terrible organization and turned it around instead going someplace where there were already several pieces in place.

    Just like Tom Brady did not go alone to Tampa Bay, where again they already had a lot of pieces in place.

    It takes a confluence of events to produce a winner not one coach or one player.

    Bill’s a top 5 coach…

    I don't disagree with that, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. Basically all the other prospective GOAT coaches did their great winning before the salary cap was instituted in 1994. Now could these prospective GOAT coaches have done as well as they did with a salary cap in place? Very doubtful that they would have done as well. Simply because the salary cap by its nature is there to try to ensure equal competition throughout the league. To put it bluntly, the salary cap is there to punish winning teams, and reward losing teams.

    Well Bill Belichick, and ONLY Bill Belichick not only won games during this salary cap era, he excelled with a remarkable feat of winning six Super Bowls.

    In my view, that clearly and unequivocally makes him the GOAT.

    1) All good points.

    2) He had a quarterback whose greatest ability (amongst many) might have been a willingness to take less money.

    3) It is great to see you back posting.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:
    I think we can all agree on this:

    4for4 is the forum GOAT when it comes to nitpicking the NFL head coach GOAT. 😉

    Good one !
    I owe you one of each of these for that one, and yes, it’s good to have you here !


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  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @stevek said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    I put top 5.

    Every coach mentioned was paired with a great QB when they did their winning.

    For many great coaches who went to multiple places, they often brought their players and personnel with them when they did. And almost none when to a terrible organization and turned it around instead going someplace where there were already several pieces in place.

    Just like Tom Brady did not go alone to Tampa Bay, where again they already had a lot of pieces in place.

    It takes a confluence of events to produce a winner not one coach or one player.

    Bill’s a top 5 coach…

    I don't disagree with that, but I've said this before and I'll say it again. Basically all the other prospective GOAT coaches did their great winning before the salary cap was instituted in 1994. Now could these prospective GOAT coaches have done as well as they did with a salary cap in place? Very doubtful that they would have done as well. Simply because the salary cap by its nature is there to try to ensure equal competition throughout the league. To put it bluntly, the salary cap is there to punish winning teams, and reward losing teams.

    Well Bill Belichick, and ONLY Bill Belichick not only won games during this salary cap era, he excelled with a remarkable feat of winning six Super Bowls.

    In my view, that clearly and unequivocally makes him the GOAT.

    1) All good points.

    2) He had a quarterback whose greatest ability (amongst many) might have been a willingness to take less money.

    3) It is great to see you back posting.

    "2) He had a quarterback whose greatest ability (amongst many) might have been a willingness to take less money."

    Excellent point.

    Every GOAT or really any winner in life needs a bit of luck or whatever, in order to succeed. Belichick certainly had it in this case with Tom not being greedy and moving to another team.

    For example, how many potential GOAT players, are now long forgotten because they suffered a career ending injury of some sort or other unfortunate circumstance.

    I truly believe that Buddy Ryan would have won at least one Super Bowl, if not more as the Eagles head coach, if that very tragic car accident hadn't happened to Jerome Brown, who was a rising star, stud DT. Brown's death seemed to demoralize the entire team, and I think they never fully got over it. Brown to this day is still talked about in Philadelphia as a beloved player for the Eagles.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @stevek said:
    I think we can all agree on this:

    4for4 is the forum GOAT when it comes to nitpicking the NFL head coach GOAT. 😉

    Good one !
    I owe you one of each of these for that one, and yes, it’s good to have you here !

    I still enjoy a good cheese steak every once in a while. But cheese steaks and the like are no longer a staple in my diet. I now eat extremely healthy, and have for quite some time.

    I don't miss the unhealthy foods one bit...well maybe a cheese steak once in a while. 😆

  • pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭

    Fans and NFL owners expect results and I believe Belichick gave them the results, much more than any other coach.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @Tabe said:
    After all, who's his competition?

    Lombardi, who won 5 titles but only lasted 11 years and did nothing in Washington?

    Lombardi took a 5-9-0 team and made them 7-5-2 in Washington and “did nothing”.

    Yes, that qualifies as nothing.

  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,745 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    Obviously, his tenure there was not a roaring success but "very bad" is way overstating it.

    just curious, what would you call one playoff victory in nine seasons without the greatest quarterback of all time as his disposal?

    and let me guess, you're gonna make the argument that BB still would have won 8 rings if Tom hadn't been around?

    dude he wouldn't be anywhere to be found in this discussion if Brady hadn't been his quarterback............that's abundantly clear with all of the rampant success he has enjoyed in his head coaching career without him. after this season it'll be one playoff win in 10 seasons. if he keeps chasing the record it may be 1 in 12 or 13.

    that's GOAT material, right Tabe? 😂

    you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:

    dude he wouldn't be anywhere to be found in this discussion if Brady hadn't been his quarterback

    That's kinda how it works. Great coaches and great players go hand in hand.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @Tabe said:

    @galaxy27 said:

    dude he wouldn't be anywhere to be found in this discussion if Brady hadn't been his quarterback

    That's kinda how it works. Great coaches and great players go hand in hand.

    Wrong.
    Charles Barkley was a great player.
    Phil Jackson wins nothing in Chicago if he’s there instead of Jordan.
    Tom Brady = Michael Jordan

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2023 11:41PM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @pdoidoi said:
    Fans and NFL owners expect results and I believe Belichick gave them the results, much more than any other coach.

    Tom Brady gave them results.
    BB has a lifetime LOSING record without him.

    What do you think Kraft was thinking in 2000 when Belichick gave him these results after Pete Carroll was shown the door?

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @Tabe said:

    @4for4 said:

    @Tabe said:
    After all, who's his competition?

    Lombardi, who won 5 titles but only lasted 11 years and did nothing in Washington?

    Lombardi took a 5-9-0 team and made them 7-5-2 in Washington and “did nothing”.

    Yes, that qualifies as nothing.

    If improving a 9 loss team down to a 5 loss team qualifies as “nothing “, then what word would you use to describe Belichicks first year in NE in 2000 ?

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 28,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "What if" that six mile wide asteroid hadn't struck the Yucatán Peninsula around 60 million years ago?

    We'd be discussing which Tyrannosaurus Rex is the GOAT of the NFL. Although with those short arms, I would imagine that it probably ran the football more than passed.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @stevek said:
    "What if" that six mile wide asteroid hadn't struck the Yucatán Peninsula around 60 million years ago?

    We'd be discussing which Tyrannosaurus Rex is the GOAT of the NFL. Although with those short arms, I would imagine that it probably ran the football more than passed.

    I always wondered if dinasours were food for the Nephilim, who stood 450 feet tall.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:
    Why did BB sit the great Tom Brady his entire 1st year in NE when the PATS went 5-11 ?

    Why did BB start Bledsoe the following year ahead of Brady ?

    Basically an injury saved BB, because he didn’t have the know how to start one of the greatest QB s
    of all time.

    BB had a very bad 5 years in Cleveland.
    BB went 5-11 his first year in NE.
    BB started 0-2 his second year in NE before Brady was forced to come in and save his job and career.

    Here are the real top 5 GOATs

    1. Lombardi
    2. Shula
    3. Halas
    4. Walsh
    5. Noll

    Don Shula was a HC for 33 years. he missed the playoffs in 14 of those seasons. he was 1 and done in 9 more. that means that in 23 of his 33 seasons as a HC, his teams were a non factor. I think number 2 if FAR too high for him.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    The great coaches know how to get the most out of their players, no one was better at that than Jimmy Johnson, he had a degree in psychology from Arkansas university and he used that psychology degree on his players, he was the Sigmund Freud of NFL coaches, that's how he turned a 1-15 football team into a dynasty. If I could play for any coach in NFL history, it would be Jimmy Johnson. He was a master at the art of motivating his players.

    I agree that Jimmy Johnson was a helluva football coach.

    It's hilarious that Jerry Jones with the biggest sports owner ego perhaps since George Steinbrenner, refused to allow Jimmy Johnson to have the credit Jimmy deserved in those winning Super Bowls. That Jerry was the one instrumental in winning those Super Bowls. Not even Jerry's dog believed that one. 😆

    Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor, sometimes I seriously thing the man is evil, he can be most rotten man I've ever seen at times, and honestly Steve, if the Cowboys never win another Super Bowl under Jones's ownership again, he deserves it.

    "Jerry Jones still refuses to induct Jimmy Johnson into the Cowboys ring of honor"

    I didn't know that. How childishly pathetic. Shameful really.

    It is shameful and childish, everything Jimmy did for that organization and that's the gratitude that he gets. Don't get me started on Mustache Jones, I might have to suspend him from avatar duty again!

    our only hope is that AI Jerry Jones will take the wheel and finally induct Jimmy!!

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:
    Noll took over a horrible Steelers franchise and did a miracle.

    Shula the same with Miami.

    Lombardi took over a bad Packers club and the same.
    Walsh with SF.
    Johnson a 1-15 Dallas team.

    BB took over a bad Cleveland team and did not do what those three did.

    He took over a bad NE team, went 5-11, then 0-2 until an injury to Bledsoe changed his fortunes.
    He didn’t have the football insight to start Brady over Bledsoe in his second year at NE.

    You keep mentioning the "miracle" Noll performed when he came to the Steelers. What happened to that "miracle" for the entire second half of his coaching career? 12 seasons, his teams made it out of the first round of the playoffs 2 times. If he was the greatest, why couldnt he continue the excellence longer than the 8 years of dominance the Steelers had?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    @stevek said:
    "What if" that six mile wide asteroid hadn't struck the Yucatán Peninsula around 60 million years ago?

    We'd be discussing which Tyrannosaurus Rex is the GOAT of the NFL. Although with those short arms, I would imagine that it probably ran the football more than passed.

    Obviously, under this scenario, the greatest coach of all time would almost have to be T-Rex Ryan, right?

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    Noll took over a horrible Steelers franchise and did a miracle.

    Shula the same with Miami.

    Lombardi took over a bad Packers club and the same.
    Walsh with SF.
    Johnson a 1-15 Dallas team.

    BB took over a bad Cleveland team and did not do what those three did.

    He took over a bad NE team, went 5-11, then 0-2 until an injury to Bledsoe changed his fortunes.
    He didn’t have the football insight to start Brady over Bledsoe in his second year at NE.

    You keep mentioning the "miracle" Noll performed when he came to the Steelers. What happened to that "miracle" for the entire second half of his coaching career? 12 seasons, his teams made it out of the first round of the playoffs 2 times. If he was the greatest, why couldnt he continue the excellence longer than the 8 years of dominance the Steelers had?

    Already been answered in the thread. #4 Walsh overcame Shula and Noll in the early 80’s vaulting himself to #4 in the Top 5.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 6:19AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    Everyone knows the situation.
    NE had one of the greatest QBs of all time in their back pocket and wouldn’t start him.
    Either they couldn’t recognize his great talent, or they didn’t have the wisdom to make the change.

    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team and turned them into a 5-11 team and an 0-2 team before Brady saved his pathetic 5-13 record.

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  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 6:48AM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.

    Reid has a .641 wp
    BB is .660

    Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.

    Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 6:49AM
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    Everyone knows the situation.
    NE had one of the greatest QBs of all time in their back pocket and wouldn’t start him.
    Either they couldn’t recognize his great talent, or they didn’t have the wisdom to make the change.

    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team and turned them into a 5-11 team and an 0-2 team before Brady saved his pathetic 5-13 record.

    nope, you are not looking at it in context. you are looking back on the situation knowing how it all turned out.

    Back when it happened, there was Zero chance BB was benching the QB on opening day that Robert Kraft had just given the largest contract in NFL history to for a 6th round project. Zero chance. ask any patriots fan who was around back then. was never going to happen. It took the big injury to Bledsoe that forced the issue. Tommy got some experience and a body of work and then BB made the move. He could not have made that move without Brady having that body of work that he got during Bledsoes injury. remember, no one knew he was the greatest QB of all time yet.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    Everyone knows the situation.
    NE had one of the greatest QBs of all time in their back pocket and wouldn’t start him.
    Either they couldn’t recognize his great talent, or they didn’t have the wisdom to make the change.

    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team and turned them into a 5-11 team and an 0-2 team before Brady saved his pathetic 5-13 record.

    nope, you are not looking at it in context. you are looking back on the situation knowing how it all turned out.

    Back when it happened, there was Zero chance BB was benching the QB on opening day that Robert Kraft had just given the largest contract in NFL history to for a 6th round project. Zero chance. ask any patriots fan who was around back then. was never going to happen. It took the big injury to Bledsoe that forced the issue. Tommy got some experience and a body of work and then BB made the move. He could not have made that move without Brady having that body of work that he got during Bledsoes injury. remember, no one knew he was the greatest QB of all time yet.

    Forget the context.
    BB took that big contract QB and led him to an 0-2 start after an abysmal 5-11 season as head coach.

    That’s THE Context here.

    BB was ruining that team until Brady saved him.

    Forum members on ignore
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    daltex

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He needs to get back to the postseason w/o Brady to get that title

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    Everyone knows the situation.
    NE had one of the greatest QBs of all time in their back pocket and wouldn’t start him.
    Either they couldn’t recognize his great talent, or they didn’t have the wisdom to make the change.

    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team and turned them into a 5-11 team and an 0-2 team before Brady saved his pathetic 5-13 record.

    nope, you are not looking at it in context. you are looking back on the situation knowing how it all turned out.

    Back when it happened, there was Zero chance BB was benching the QB on opening day that Robert Kraft had just given the largest contract in NFL history to for a 6th round project. Zero chance. ask any patriots fan who was around back then. was never going to happen. It took the big injury to Bledsoe that forced the issue. Tommy got some experience and a body of work and then BB made the move. He could not have made that move without Brady having that body of work that he got during Bledsoes injury. remember, no one knew he was the greatest QB of all time yet.

    Forget the context.
    BB took that big contract QB and led him to an 0-2 start after an abysmal 5-11 season as head coach.

    That’s THE Context here.

    BB was ruining that team until Brady saved him.

    No, it is all about context. you are looking back with a full knowledge of how everything would turn out. In time, there were big decisions to make without the advantage you have of 20/20 vision for the future.

    It was a HUGE decision, at that time, to bench Bledsoe for Brady once he got a clean bill of health. then when Brady sprained his ankle in the AFCCG against the Steelers and Bledsoe came in and threw a TD and played the entire 2nd half to lead the team to the SB, BB had to decide weather to play an injured Brady in the SB or start a fully healthy Bledsoe who played well in the AFCCG. Remember, that year there was only 1 off week before the SB for Brady to get treatment on that ankle.

    BB made some really tough decisions that season. You have the easy job of looking back and second-guessing.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • pdoidoipdoidoi Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭

    4for4 do the Steelers win their titles if Franco Harris does not make the Immaculate Reception. Would that make chuck Knoll a bad coach. Coming from a big fan of the 1970's Pirates and Steelers.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    Wrong.
    Charles Barkley was a great player.
    Phil Jackson wins nothing in Chicago if he’s there instead of Jordan.
    Tom Brady = Michael Jordan

    Of course, that isn't what I was saying but you knew that. Give Phil the 2016 76ers - somehow I doubt they win a title. Give him that exact roster 5 years in a row - think anybody will consider him a great coach when he wins 15 games a year with them? Of course not.

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 1:20PM

    @4for4 said:
    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team

    "Super Bowl team" - what? Sure, they were in the Super Bowl - 4 years and 2 coaches before Belichick arrived.

    Yep, they went 5-11 his first year in New England. What'd they do his 2nd year?

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,357 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Top 5

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.

    Reid has a .641 wp
    BB is .660

    Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.

    Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.

    Reid has a .641 wp
    BB is .660

    Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.

    Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?

    The team was already trending downward under Pete Carroll, from when Parcells left, with a worsening record each year. When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency. He gutted the roster over the next two seasons, including that draft.

    After every team in the NFL passed on him 5 times, Bellichek and the Pats drafted Tom Brady.

    @craig44 already explained how big a deal it was for Bellichek to sit Drew Bledsoe, the leagues highest paid player, a former number one overall pick who had taken the Pats to a SuperBowl once already.

    At minimum, without Bill Bellichek, there’s a chance Tom Brady never even gets started in the NFL or gets a break when he needed it.

    You definitely needed both men in my estimation to create what the Patriots ended up becoming…

    …losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    …losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉

    Was waiting for that other shoe to drop! 😂

  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency.

    Curtis Martin left after the 1997 season. Belichick joined for 2000. Terry Allen was the leading rusher in 1999 and he left, leaving New England with the awesome duo of Kevin Faulk and rookie J.R. Redmond as running backs. Faulk led the team with 570 yards.

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.

    Reid has a .641 wp
    BB is .660

    Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.

    Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    The bottom line is this.
    If BB was half the coach as the others he would have accomplished in Cleveland what the others did in Miami and Pittsburgh and GB, SF and Dallas/JJ.

    Let’s see what your GOAT does today with his 0-2 team against the Jets, who got crushed by Dallas.

    He has to win today or Boston.com will start the bye bye Bill chants.

    BB is Not ahead of Andy Reid either.
    Reid is #6 behind Noll, Walsh, Halas, Shula and Lombardi.

    Walsh is #4 because he beat two legends in Shula and Noll, turned a bad SF team around, and invented an offense that still works today.

    alright, you just jumped the shark. Andy Reid is now a greater coach than BB.

    bwaaa haaaa haaaaa

    Yes. BB without Brady is a below .500 coach.

    Reid has a .641 wp
    BB is .660

    Reid has done it for years without the GOAT QB of 2000-2020.

    Please answer why did BB take a pretty decent NE team with Bledsoe who was playoff and Super Bowl Bound and turn them into a 5-11 and 0-2 team immediately?

    The team was already trending downward under Pete Carroll, from when Parcells left, with a worsening record each year. When Bellichek took over, the team also lost its best player - Curtis Martin - to the Jets in free agency. He gutted the roster over the next two seasons, including that draft.

    After every team in the NFL passed on him 5 times, Bellichek and the Pats drafted Tom Brady.

    @craig44 already explained how big a deal it was for Bellichek to sit Drew Bledsoe, the leagues highest paid player, a former number one overall pick who had taken the Pats to a SuperBowl once already.

    At minimum, without Bill Bellichek, there’s a chance Tom Brady never even gets started in the NFL or gets a break when he needed it.

    You definitely needed both men in my estimation to create what the Patriots ended up becoming…

    …losers of two Superabowls to my New York Football Giants and Eli Manning. 😉

    I’m assuming you wouldn’t like to compare the Packers trending downward before Lombardi to the Pats trending downward before Belichick ?

    Got news for you.
    Lombardi turned a 1 win team into a powerhouse with 7 wins the next year.

    BB turned an 8 win team into a 5 win team, and then an 0-2 team before Brady saved him.

    See the difference?

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 10:49PM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @Tabe said:

    @4for4 said:

    Wrong.
    Charles Barkley was a great player.
    Phil Jackson wins nothing in Chicago if he’s there instead of Jordan.
    Tom Brady = Michael Jordan

    Of course, that isn't what I was saying but you knew that. Give Phil the 2016 76ers - somehow I doubt they win a title. Give him that exact roster 5 years in a row - think anybody will consider him a great coach when he wins 15 games a year with them? Of course not.

    Still waiting to hear what you’d call BB’s first year with NE turning an 8 win team into a 5 win team being that you said Lombardi did nothing.
    Thanks

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @4for4 said:
    What if Phil Jackson sat MJ in Chicago for not one year, but two, and then MJ finally got to play because Ron Harper got hurt ?

    Insert Bledsoe and Brady.

    You may not know the entire backstory here. Bledsoe was a number 1 draft pick who had just signed the largest contract in history up until that point. There was zero chance any coach was going to start a 6th round draft pick over Bledsoe in that situation. Zero. Bledsoe was the man at that time.

    Everyone knows the situation.
    NE had one of the greatest QBs of all time in their back pocket and wouldn’t start him.
    Either they couldn’t recognize his great talent, or they didn’t have the wisdom to make the change.

    Not only that, but BB took a pretty successful Bledsoe and took that playoff and Super Bowl team and turned them into a 5-11 team and an 0-2 team before Brady saved his pathetic 5-13 record.

    nope, you are not looking at it in context. you are looking back on the situation knowing how it all turned out.

    Back when it happened, there was Zero chance BB was benching the QB on opening day that Robert Kraft had just given the largest contract in NFL history to for a 6th round project. Zero chance. ask any patriots fan who was around back then. was never going to happen. It took the big injury to Bledsoe that forced the issue. Tommy got some experience and a body of work and then BB made the move. He could not have made that move without Brady having that body of work that he got during Bledsoes injury. remember, no one knew he was the greatest QB of all time yet.

    Forget the context.
    BB took that big contract QB and led him to an 0-2 start after an abysmal 5-11 season as head coach.

    That’s THE Context here.

    BB was ruining that team until Brady saved him.

    No, it is all about context. you are looking back with a full knowledge of how everything would turn out. In time, there were big decisions to make without the advantage you have of 20/20 vision for the future.

    It was a HUGE decision, at that time, to bench Bledsoe for Brady once he got a clean bill of health. then when Brady sprained his ankle in the AFCCG against the Steelers and Bledsoe came in and threw a TD and played the entire 2nd half to lead the team to the SB, BB had to decide weather to play an injured Brady in the SB or start a fully healthy Bledsoe who played well in the AFCCG. Remember, that year there was only 1 off week before the SB for Brady to get treatment on that ankle.

    BB made some really tough decisions that season. You have the easy job of looking back and second-guessing.

    Yeah. You’re right. That’s exactly what we are doing. Examining the decisions and results of head coaches to see who was better.

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2023 11:19PM
    71-79 lifetime w/o Brady so average at best

    💯

    Here Tabe.
    Here’s what Green Bay did before Lombardi took over in 1959.

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

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