Barber or Walking Liberty Half Dollars
pmh1nic
Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭✭✭
I’m look for my next collecting challenge. I have a full set of Franklin halves and considering either Barber halves or Walking Liberty for building a set. Which of these would be the most difficult to put together in MS-63/64 with respect to price and the availability of coins with nice toning? Are there any dealers that would be an especially good source for either? The last question, which I know is hard to estimate, is what would it cost to complete a set like this?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
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I do not have the answers to your questions, I would choose the WLH as it is a nicer design (imo) and finding nice barbers of any denomination seems far more difficult from what I have seen.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The barbers would be tougher and more expensive. Half the walker series is relative cake in that grade range.
IMO, Barber Halves will be a bigger challenge at that grade level. Somewhat bigger money as well. To get a good idea of the expected cost, look at the PCGS Price Guide. It shows the approx value of a full set at different grade levels.
Both of these sets will be pretty costly. Finding nicely toned, original pieces will be chore. Good luck either way you go!
Dave
Agree with above posts. Finding attractive Barber coinage for the grade is difficult, especially the Half Dollars. A nice 04 S is NOT cheap.
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Walking Liberty halves will be less expensive, and easier to assemble. If you do a complete date and mint mark set in MS63, the cost would be in the neighborhood of $150,000 to complete, and about $230,000 in MS64.
Barber half set would be approximately $180,000 in MS63, and $250,000 in MS64.
If you go down the "toner" rabbit hole, the sets can cost multiples of what I quoted above, which is one reason I generally stay away from toned coins (I do make exceptions once in a while).
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Nice toning on MS63/64 Barber half dollars will cost you more than a quarter-million dollars and likely take more than a decade to build. I don't know about WLHs, but if the previous makes you want to go for Barbers then go for it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If I had to choose between the two, I'd do a Barber half set in the AU grade level with a few XF exceptions.
Here's an AU55 CAC with plenty of eye appeal:
If I could find many with similar or close to this eye appeal, I believe it would be superior to collecting 63s and cheaper too.
Edit to add: Why not approach the challenge in pieces? Do a date set or focus on the 1900s first. You'll get some satisfaction along the way by having milestones. It's a long series.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Wow, it's quite a leap from Franklins (all common, really) to either one. As others have noted, you're looking at serious money (to me, at least) for a full set of MS63 or MS64 in either type.
I would say collecting Barbers in Mint State is not for the faint of heart. Likely a very frustrating time collecting these. Walkers I believe would be easier provided you have the funds to get the coins when they appear at auction. Having collected Barbers for a while now, not in that grade, but mint state coins are not often seen in my experience.
Walkers by far would be the easiest to complete
I've been looking for a nice common date 1892-1899 Barber half in MS64 for about 6 months now, nothing!
Good luck
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Personally, I’d rather do Barbers, as I find the series to be more interesting, but Walkers have plenty of fans. There are some pretty tough Barber half dollars to find in attractive and well-struck condition. The second half of the Walker set is pretty boring, and it might be much easier to locate coins in the MS65-66 range than the MS63 range for many of those issues. Early Walkers are pretty cool though.
You could probably assemble a decent set of Walkers in a few months. A complete set could probably be done in a couple of weekends if you weren’t too picky. Not true of Barbers. For attractive, toned coins in your desired grade range, it could take many years, as Tom says.
You must have a lot money for cakes.
I had a customer who was building a set of Walkers when I was a dealer. We finished up the coins in the 1930s and '40s, but the rubber meets the road in the 1920s. It was simply beyond his budget. We talked about looking for nice AU coins, but he had to have them in Mint State.
I suppose the Barbers are a lot tougher, but for me they would be much less interesting. I think that the Walking Liberty Half Dollar is one of the best U.S. designs. My interest would never last to do the whole set, but I did acquire all of the Proofs.
Based on the responses I’m going to have to downgrade my expectations from MS to AU or even XF. Of course everyone loves luster but I think I’ll have to settle for strong detail.
The Barber series doesn't have the relatively easy area such as the short set of Walkers contains. Plus, there are a few more Barber halves to accumulate. Either set would be difficult but by the population numbers the Barbers will be more difficult. Some serious checkbook wreckers in both series in the grade level you mention. Quite a step up from Franklins. Good luck.
@BillJones Walker proof coins are magnificent! I totally agree - behind the Saint, it's the prettiest US coin ever made, and in proof, they are astounding.
NOT my coin (I wish!)
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
The short set of Walkers would make a nice and attainable collection in MS 64. As said above, nice Barber half dollars are scarce on the ground. It seems like most have been messed with at some time and lack "pop" or originality. I'm a type guy though, so what do I know?
It took me about a decade to build a strong VF/EF Barber half dollar set. I worked on it from around 1999-2009 and bought coins in PCGS, NGC and ANACS holders as well as plenty of raw pieces. They were obtained from the bourse floor, ebay and major auctions. The set consisted of pieces with original (or as original as I could figure) surfaces without secondary toning. In the end, I had the entire set in strong VF/EF except for the 1893-S and 1907-S, which were both strong F/VF coins.
Today, it would be far easier to assemble such a set already certified since the populations of the coins have exploded in TPG holders, but finding nice, unadulterated coins is the key. There are 70+ coins in the Barber set and I would think you could put together a really nice EF40 group of coins in 5-7 years for $30-$40K.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I’m at the point where the $30k-$40k would be manageable. I’m less certain about the 5-7 years🙏🏽
I'm doing a Barber set, for the budget minded.
All PCGS coins. F-15 with strong Liberty. I have a few in higher grades.
I'm 33% there, and been at it for 3 years.
Another way to get ideas of what is available (snapshot only) is to use collectors corner and do some sorts. These two are just sorted for MS62 through MS65. Could change to other grades and also could sort on pcgs only and other. They have photos so can see 'the color' or not. Any date set thoughts.
Barber
https://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=732&pId=12
Walking
https://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=733&pId=12
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RLJ 1958 - 2023
I'm working on a raw set of original VG-F Barber halves. Even in those grades, it's very tough to find original attractive coins. Budget doesn't matter if the nice coins just aren't there, no matter the grade.
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Probably a wise decision.
FWIW, Walkers after about 1933 generally (with exceptions) aren't very expensive. Many can be had in MS63 at very modest prices. Many before 1934 are quite expensive (see, e.g., 1919 through 1921; even VF versions of the 1921 Walkers are very expensive by my standards).
To me, a large part of the charm of coin collecting is having pretty coins to look at. You might consider looking at copies in the grades you think you might collect, to see what grade is "very pretty" to your eyes. If yo settle for unattractive coins, you may find yourself regretting it later (and either being unhappy, or spending a lot more money upgrading).
I do like Proof Walkers.
Proof 67
Toned Proof 65
Proof 65
This is what makes the Barbers a fascinating series to collect, I have a complete set (except for a single F12) VF-AU, with four MS halves mixed in. Check out the pop figures for VF20-AU58.
https://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail/barber-half-dollar-1892-1915/732/0?t=2&p=MS&pn=1
Steve
Both sets are doable with time, patience and cash... Where you want to be is the key...
In XF the Walkers have a few biggies but most are attainable. Nice 20-D, 23-S, 21-s are pretty tricky and you have 5 coins or so that will cost more than 1k in XF 17-S Obv, 19-s, 19-d, 21-d, s and a few just below 1k in the 21p, 23-s, 27-s The Early S mints up until 41-s are really tough in XF with ANY eye appeal. Many are lacking ANY hand detail on the obverse and are pancakes.
The barbers went through a MASSIVE melt with the Hunt Brothers so mintages does not correlate to populations. You have the known biggies but you would most likely have to expand from VF25 to AU-50 to get a set and you are going to have a dozen or so coins over 1k. If you buy from the Barber dealers you are going to have more than that because they know what they have... then you get some weird costly coins i.e. O6-O.
I have done 5 sets of Walkers... In 65/66, 63, Rattler set, AU58 and my current set of XF... That is in addition to the 3 sets of Dansco folder sets that were done in basic circulation. EVery Walker is available given the money.
I started a set of MS Barbers back in the day and just did not enjoy it. I have 2 Dansco sets but they are average circulation. The problem with Barber sets... Sometimes it does not matter you have the money because some of the coins are just absolutely RARE. I enjoy the nuance of grading Walkers more... I find the coin more eye appealing. But if you want a LIFELONG journey.. do the Barbers.
The other thing... There is so much knowledge in this forum. The folks here that collect Walkers and Barbers are INCREDIBLE. Many are very willing to talk to you... Answer questions, review coins, give advice.
This is just my 2 cents...
Enjoy the journey because that is the story...
Walkers are definitely easier. Unless you’re looking for something other than blast white…
I got an education today
. Yes, the jump from Franklin's to either is quite a leap.
Start with a type coin of both Barbers and Walkers and see which coin strikes your fancy more. You will know. The interesting thing about Walkers is that they look fabulous in any grade from Good to Super gem. Barbers do not look good in more circulated grades.
Just curious, what did he do? Scrape and save for the MS coins, lower standards, abandon the set, other...?
Russ who used to be on our boards, collected the nicest MS-64 Walkers you will ever see.
When I got back into coin collecting some years ago (after a lifetime of having been too full of raising three children and earning a living to have extra bandwidth), I amassed a full set of Franklins, uncirculated and blast white, for about $800.
Meanwhile, I recommenced my walking Liberty half dollar collection from my childhood (I'm so old that they were in general circulation when I was a kid). Over the years (including upgrading), I have spent somewhere north of $30,000 on the set, and most are NOT uncirculated (but the set is complete, subject to continual upgrades).
But I have far more affection for my walker collection than for my Franklin collection. Walkers are gorgeous coins, and some of them have been quite difficult to find in the grade that was both (i) pretty enough to be attractive to me, and (ii) affordable to me. I have spent more on each of sixteen of my walkers than I did on my entire Franklin collection, and only one of those was in an uncirculated grade.
If you have the time and personality to be patient (or the budget not to have to be patient), it can be a lot of fun!
Mark
I sent this as a PM to @pmh1nic and then thought that others who might be interested in the Barber series may want to read it, as well. It is below in a slightly edited format.
If you are interested in reading, I can point you in the right direction for Barber half dollars. The Barber Coin Collectors' Society (BCCS) is linked below-
http://www.barbercoins.org
It has all things Barber on it and has a link to David Lawrence's (Feigenbaum's) definitive reference on the subject. The book is about 30-years old now, but if you read it you will still learn a ton. It might cost $100 to find a paper copy, but it is hosted by DLRC on Archive.org and the link is below-
https://archive.org/details/compguidebarbhalf1991lawr/mode/2up
I have also written substantially about the Barber half dollar series and much of that is on the PCGS boards in the form of responses to questions, but I have linked the notes I prepared for a 2005 Coin World Coin Values Supplement as well as a feature article for the BCCS written in 2016, both linked below-
http://www.tbnumismatics.com/collecting-mid-grade-barber-half-dollars.html
http://www.tbnumismatics.com/circulated-barber-half-dollars-a-look-back-at-two-decades-of-specialization.html
My taste in coins tends strongly to prefer original surfaces and this extends to circulated coinage. Although my set has long been sold off, I still buy choice pieces when I can find them, which isn't that often. I'll include some in this note along with their grades, dates of acquisition and approximate cost.
The first coin is an absolutely gorgeous and perfectly original 1893-S, which is the King of circulated Barber coinage. A full-time dealer offered this coin raw on ebay back in 2010 for $325, which was then VF money, because of the scratch through the shield on the reverse. The scratch is contemporary with the usage of the coin and PCGS subsequently graded it EF40 while CAC placed a green sticker on it. I couldn't buy this coin fast enough when I saw it listed and also couldn't believe my good fortune. Today this is far more money and you would be extremely fortunate to find it for sale.
The 1898-O that follows is one of those coins that until you build the set you have no idea how tough an original piece will be. This one is in a PCGS OGH as an EF45 with a green CAC sticker on it. I paid about $900 for it in 2020. Unlike the 1893-S, you can find these even in the EF grades, but they have almost universally been abused in the past. A coin with original skin like this and some meat would sell for over $1,000. Again, you will find this date in this grade, but an unmolested coin is tough.
Next up are a pair of 1904-S pieces, which will be the next toughest, behind the 1893-S, to obtain in VF-AU. The top is a PCGS VF25 with green CAC sticker and the bottom is a PCGS VF35 that is currently sitting at CAC waiting for evaluation while I type this. Both coins appeared for me in the last year and should be upwards of $2,000 each if you can find them.
Lastly, we have a raw 1907-S. Unless you have read what I have written in the past on the boards, my website or in magazines, you would have no idea that this coin is one of the unheralded stoppers in the set. Virtually every piece I have seen in mid-grades, save for this and an ANACS VF25 that I own, has been cleaned at one time. The price is shockingly low for a coin that can only be found abused, but you may get one in VF for $200-$300. I grade this one VF30 and was lucky enough to find it on ebay with poor images last year and the thread that I wrote about the coin and acquisition is linked above the image.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1084609/found-a-gorgeous-circulated-barber-half-dollar-of-an-issue-that-has-always-vexed-me
Of course, there are a handful of issues that you can readily find anywhere from VF20-AU50 and that won't cost you a mortgage payment, but given there are 70+ coins in the series you can bet that there are another score or two that will be near impossible and will cost that amount, as well.
Take up this set if you like an incredible challenge that just might be possible to finish. It's likely that the most difficult thing about finding original coins with meat up and down the series will be luck and not funds. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have.
Good luck!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
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Yes, do a Walker short set (1941 - 1947). Budget-friendly in MS grades especially compared with Barber halves.
Naturally toned examples are plentiful too. I like 'em with pale subtle coloring.
Tip: It's much better to buy when you can examine Walkers in-hand. Then it's easier to find well-struck examples with toning as you like.
Successful BST transactions with forum members thebigeng, SPalladino, Zoidmeister, coin22lover, coinsarefun, jwitten, CommemKing.
I love WLH's and I started to build a set. I got bored with it and switched to Morgan's because I like VAMS and all of the different possibilities with Morgan's. Toning, die cracks, errors, PL, DMPL and so on.
Someone suggested multiple coins of the same date just looking for toners. That what I started to do myself. If you do decide to start collecting WLH toners you should PM me. I have some really nice graded toned coins. I am not interested in making money and I would be happy to pass them along to another collector for my cost.
I also have a "sunburst" variety that won't break the bank.
Whatever you decide to do remember to have fun and watch out for artificially toned walkers as there are many out there. The same is especially true and moreso with Morgan's.
Enjoy!
The walkers from 1916 to 1933 in mintstate 63 and 64 are NOT easy and are extremely expensive. Branch mints of the 1930s can be challenging, as well. A full set of barbers in MS 63 to 64 will cost you $185K to $250K and a full set of walkers in the same grade will cost you $155K to $240K. The barber series has no real Stoppers other than varieties, such as the 92-o micro o. It is just a LONG series. I suppose that a case could also be made for the 96-O. BOTH are challenging and BOTH are pricey. You KNOW which one I would choose but which one do YOU prefer?
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
@pmh1nic ... My choice would be the WLH series.... To me, it is the most beautiful American silver coin. I can recall, as a kid, sitting with one for hours, examining the details on both sides (Fifty cents was a lot for a kid at that time - but I would get the coin on my paper route - they circulated then.)... If you go with the tarnish angle, it is going to get very expensive - I recommend staying away from that money pit. Have fun... Cheers, RickO
I’d respectfully disagree with this (ironic, from a Walkerguy!).
Walkers lose all appeal to me below VG, and slicks are just junk silver.
To me, Barbers look appealing as classic American coinage, even at AG with mostly missing rims.
My real appreciation is for the early walkers in XF-AU. Here you have beauty, scarcity, and strong demand all rolled into one. At Winter FUN, there was a dealer who had a nice run of these, which is highly unusual these days. They were priced at moon money of course, but he could, as there were very few others of these dates, even on that massive bourse.
Even though they were for the most part comparable to mine, I still spent quite a while examining and appreciating these coins for what they were.
No, he never finished the set so far as I know.
Geez Louise ... amazing Barber halves @TomB. Anyone who collects the halves will be drooling over these. Wonderful pieces. Incredible.
Dave
My vote is Barbers, but I collect and love Walkers too, so I have an interesting perspective. The value proposition, and rarity of the Barbers, factored with being less popular with collectors make them very compelling to me i.e. a small-time guy like me, can actually own a coin like this!
@Eldorado9 "small time guy". LOLLLLLLLLL.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
You had me until that statement, @Eldorado9!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
@TomB
Thanks for the wealth of information in your post!
You've helped to put into words why I targeted the VG-F range for my Barbers, rather than VF-EF. I like the deeper gray and charcoal tones that are relatively easier to find in the lower grade range. When Barbers get up to VF, they often look pale/bland, like this one:
I may not have appreciated that one reason for this blandness is a bit of doctoring. The coin above does not have grotesque signs of being messed with, but it is on the pale side. Was it likely messed with at some point?
(By the way, for the OP -- I don't think you can go wrong with either Barbers or Walkers; they have their own charm and followings. I am now moving from Barber halves (nearly complete) towards WLHs)
@BillJones said regarding the mint state Walkers:
“the Rubber meets the road in the 1920s”.
This literally made me laugh out loud. 🤣. Thanks, for the good belly laugh! That is a very kind way of putting it!! 😉
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Or I could have said "The stuff hits the fan," especially in 1921.
The thing about U.S. coins is how high the prices are. I completed a run of coins for the British kings from Alfred the Great to Elizabeth II. I am still waiting on my Charles III. The most I paid was $12k. I could have avoided that, but the coin in question was the first British gold sovereign, which was a George III piece, and kind of special. I don't need to tell you, that if you go for the complete U.S. type set, you can't avoid paying 5 or 6 figures for some things, even if you can tolerate very low grades. The "dark side" is in a different world.
You are correct. I am very impressed by your complete US type set. I have viewed it many times ATS. I always enjoy reading your posts and hearing your thoughts. I have learned a lot from them over the years. I have a few foreign coins but they just don’t excite me as much as the US stuff does. Some of the design elements (on Darkside material) are incredibly beautiful and artistic, though. So, I can see why you are interested in them. They are steeped in history, too.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Barber halves with original surfaces and eye appeal at any grade above ~Good are difficult. It’s not generally a series you can throw money at and complete quickly. I’ve been collecting the halves in F-VF since 2009 and am only 65% done. It’s rare to find them at shows - most are raw and have been cleaned or have rim damage.
I’ve never attempted a full set of Walkers - primarily because I think the design doesn’t wear well below XF and I don’t have the budget to collect the early dates at that level or better. So I’ve settled for a few MS and PR type pieces from the 30s and 40s.
Just have to look at what your budget allows in each series and based on that, which is more appealing.
I finished my Barber set and my Walker set almost in tandem. Both are easily doable. I personally went Walkers first because they were easier to find at non-premium prices.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@DelawareDoons: what grade ranges are your sets?
(I’ve found circulated Barber halves VG-F non-trivial; not hard really, but requireing a lot of patience and about three years)
Walkers are G to BU.
Barbers are AG to VF.
Once I got serious about finishing the sets (~10 holes in the barbers and ~5 holes in the walkers), I had them completed within 3 months.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."