Sorry about the crappy photo’s here. Bought this from Tom Reynolds 30 years ago and took the photo’s with first gen digital camera. Not sure what to do about getting it TPG’d. Gotta be one of the worst 96’s known, but fills a slot:
@DoctorPaper - 1796 Half cents are prized in any condition. This one would be the C-2 (with pole). There are two versions of this coin, one with a thin planchet (R.4), and one with a thick planchet (R.8+; Unique). Because of the photo, I cannot fully appreciate all of the attribution points... but I would really want to say this is genuine, because it matches from what I can see. If this is a thick planchet, you REALLY have a great coin.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@NeophyteNumismatist
Thanks for the nice comments. It is a thin planchet, about 5 grams in weight. It’s slightly underweigjt, but has lost a bit of mass to circulation and corrosion. What do you think about getting it slabbed for a genuine/details grade?
My 1/2 cent collection was put together over 30 years ago and few of them are slabbed. They are at the bank and I need to rephoto them. The photo’s I’ve got are not as good as they could be. I’m going to put up some interesting ones for your comments so you can educate us all.
This 1794 was obtained at my local bricks and motar shop many years ago. Like the ‘96 it’s got some issues that make slabbing questionable. What you can’t see is the edge lettering is defective. Several letters are missing. It reads, “hund…r a dollar.”
@DoctorPaper - As you are aware, the position on having EAC coins graded is controversial among collectors. The EAC guys like to be able to hold the coin, and brush them to maintain them. Personally, I am in favor of grading because it protects the coin and adds transparency and liquidity to the value of your collection. But it's all preference and/or whether you are trying to sell the coins.
That said, IMO the 1796 is 100% worthy of grading - even in details grades. The 1796 C-2 is rare (as you know), and even in it's condition it may be worth ~$6k (maybe more to the right buyer). If it were me, I would have it graded, and I would have the alpha grade (i.e. AG to G) details grade assigned. This would give you a baseline of where it falls in valuation. Likewise, putting the coin in a holder would offer greater protection than the cotton/paper envelope.
Your 1794 is hard for me to attribute. The coin has a wide date like a C-1, however, the presence of edge lettering (even defective) would negate that assumption. The C-1 is the only variety with this obverse die, so I am very perplexed. Additionally, the C-1 is a very rare (R.8) variety and I have not seen one in such great shape. The clash marks around the "H" on Half Cent of the reverse is a die state that I am unfamiliar with. If I had to make an opinion of this coin, I would say that it is not genuine. However, I do not want to give you false information.
I would like to "phone a friend" and ask @burfle23 and @halfcentman to take a look at this one and opine.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Here's an 1837 Large Cent I had mentioned to the OP for a simple attribution, if I may slip it in here. Looks like the obverse has beaded cords (which I gather means Head of 1838), and the reverse has the small letters.
I'm also curious if it's worth the cost of the variety fee to have the Newcomb # put on the label when I have it graded? Thanks!
I agree with Neo, this coin if genuine, is a terror to attribute. So many small things off, the date spread, the CENT tilt and curved alignment.I'm afraid its counterfeit also. Hope I'm wrong.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
One other thought I've had about this coin, since it has obviously been around a long time, is if it has acquired any PVC residue, and should that be dealt with, and how, before slabbing?
Large cent attribution is not my strong point at all - Matron Head Modified is where my knowledge stops (unfortunately). I don't see any slimy green residue on this coin. Does it feel sticky or give you an indication that there is PVC residue?
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@NeophyteNumismatist said:
I don't see any slimy green residue on this coin. Does it feel sticky or give you an indication that there is PVC residue?
No, not necessarily. I can tell PVC on silver coins. It's just that there's some thin light colored surface haze on mostly the left obverse field. Can be seen when viewed at an angle under light using a loupe. Could be normal from old handling.
Thanks @burfle23 ! Clearly I need some help, and glad you are here for it!!!! Thanks x 1,000,000
@DoctorPaper - With this information from @burfle23 , I would 100% get the 1974 graded also. I have never seen such a nice example of a C-1, and I was unaware of the blundered edge. This is a very rare bird indeed! Wow!!!! (And... I am so sorry for posting bad information above).
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Like Neo, I did not know of a blundered edge. Thank you, @burfle23, without the help of your calibur of knowledge I would be well over my head, evidently.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks guys, @Neophyte Numismatist and @burfle23, I was aware of the rarity of this particular blunder, which can be seen on some of the other edge lettered varieties as well. It seems to me the blunder is one of the potential reasons for NOT slabbing the coin, since that makes the blunder non visible, though I think there may be some special slabs where the edge can be seen. Large cents and Bust halves are the other type of coins where you see some of these lettering blunders. The point is, when you have a variety of coin that is edge lettered, never forget to look closely at that "third" side of the coin. You can cherry pick up some really valuable coins that way.
I'm sorry the pictures of coins from my collection are so poor. I'm considering reshooting them with better equipment.
OK here’s an interesting one for your consideration and it’s an older variety that I don’t see illustrated upthread. You should know it’s got a lettered edge and it weighs 110 grains.
@DoctorPaper the 1795 has the markers of a C-1a, thick planchet with a lettered edge. However,I thought the thick planchet weighed 104 gr, but you say 110. I would not anticipate the coin to get heavier. Teach me, what gives here?
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Yes it is a little heavy and with the pole it should be a C-1a. It has the crooked letters in HALF CENT and the dot in the upper 2nd 0. Appears real other than the weight. Is it fake?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
No, it’s not a fake. The weights on these early coins, particularly coppers, were somewhat irregular. We’re talking about about 5% tolerance here. Additionally, in the 1790’s the mint was very short of finished copper sheets from which to punch planchets. The usual supply from London had dried up. By 1796 they only had enough copper to mint a couple thousand 1/2 cents, mostly defective.
The mint took extraordinary steps to find copper they could use to mint half cents and used such things as half cent planchets punched from spoiled large cents or colonial coppers, especially Nova Constallatio and Talbot Allum and Lee tokens because of their relatively high quality. There are stories they stripped copper sheeting off the hulls of derelict boats to make planchets. It is fairly common to find half cents minted in this era where you can see the undertypes of large cents and colonial coins under the federal half cent design. In any case, in this era, you can’t use coin weight of coppers to decide if a coin is real or not. (Silver and gold coins are a different story-they were fanatical about the weight of these, adjusting the planchet weight with files if need be).
For the 1795 Cohen 1, the most tell tale diagnostic is the “I” in the date (with the pole). The mint was in such disarray at this time possibly due to a yellow fever epidemic sickening most of the workers, they couldn’t find a “1” die and substituted a capital letter “I” instead. That’s the dead giveaway for this variety.
Here’s a 1797 Cohen 1 which demonstrates the problems they were having finding acceptable planchets. This half cent planchet was cut out of a 1794 Talbot, Allum & Lee Token. You can see parts of the undertype lettering on both the obverse and reverse even though the half cent is pretty low grade. Wish I had one on a cut down large cent planchet, but I don’t have one in my collection.
@jesbroken said: @DoctorPaper. Wow, what a treasure trove of information. Have you written a book? If so, what is it's title? If not, please do.
Thank you.
Jim
Very kind words Jim. No, no numismatic books for me though I have published quite a bit throughout my medical research career.
What I've been writing about here is described in the major texts on identifying and attributing half cents. If you guys are really interested in the subject, there are 3 books I'd recommend-all have great photos which make attributing coins pretty easy (it's the beat up half cents that cause the ID issues).
Roger S. Cohen, American Half Cents, the "Little Half Sisters," second ed., 1982
Walter S. Breen, Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of United States Half Cents 1793-1857, 1983
Ronald P. Manley, The Half Cent Die State Book, 1793-1857, 1998
These books show up on occasion on eBay or the internet. If you are interested in half cents, any one of these would be a great attribution resource. If you were to join the EAC (Early American Coppers Club), they maintain a free lending library where you can borrow these books for free. I've been inactive for a while there; they may have digitized their library for all I know.
From a personal point of view, I strongly recommend half cents as an area of interest. You have a shot at completing or almost completing (1796 is a problem) a date set without destroying your pocketbook. Though the coins should be rare based on mintages, they are pretty available because few people collect them. A lot of them are in surprisingly good condition because they evidently did not circulate a whole lot in daily commerce. It is still possible to find overlooked rarieties if you're attentive to detail and have a bit of knowledge. If you really get into it, you can start collecting them by Cohen type and even die state because so few people do that.
Thank you and I have all three and 4 or 5 additional. Trying to read the prefaces and the author's story of the creation of the half cents and am learning, but only started on them last winter and large cents the year before. What I have found to be a true benefit for my collecting purposes are the damaged specimens that most will not look at. I can afford far better condition coins with details grades yet with nice details(no pun intended). Here is an example that I paid less than $50 for. I can live with the scratches in order to view the beauty of the entire coin and its attributes.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Very nice example of advanced die crumbling on that reverse. As I’m sure you know, people try to collect coins with reverses showing the progression of this particular deterioration. As you say, who cares if there is some damage to your coin as long as you can focus on the important elements of the coin?
Here’s my own example of a damaged coin of this variety showing the die crumbling at a slightly earlier stage than your own coin. Of course the obverses of both our coins also show the “spiked chin” defect of this variety. This obverse die damage was caused by a set screw falling on the dies and gouging the obverse die when coins were struck.
Ok guys, let’s get down to brass tacks. Here’s a 1793. Can you attribute it? I’ve told you I don’t have many slabbed half cents, but this one is straight graded in a PCGS slab. The planchet (or as old timers refer to it, the flan) is seen to be defective on the reverse, but this is how it came out of the presses and is not considered damaged. Remember, the mint was having trouble getting good planchets and put out a lot of coins like this, so it is fully acceptable to PCGS for grading.
For bonus points, what is the PCGS grade?
@jesbroken said:
C-2, R-3 Bust curvature not smooth,
Jim
Saying it right but deducing the variety wrong.
Condition of the original coin anyone?
Below is the smooth curvature bust which goes with C-1 and C-2 (the 'hooked curvature' or non-smooth goes with 1793 varieties C-3 and C-4).
To those following along, look at the bottom edge of the obverse bust. In the quiz coin first posted, the line made by tracing the bottom edge takes a sharp downward turn, like a cliff. The other 1793 obverse, below, has a smooth line, like a weathered hill in the distance. There are other differences between the two obverses like the distance of the pole from the neck, where the point of the bust's hairline is and the shape of the cap, but the contour of the bottom of the bust allows ID of very low grade and damaged coins, if you can make out much of the wreath on the reverse.
What a silly mistake. My bad and I absolutely knew that. With the long stems not touching the ends of the ribbon is what tricked me into away from the C-3. It is the C-3. Again, my apologies for trying to be quick and not measuring twice. As soon as I saw the non smooth ark of the bust, it was aha and I rolled in the wrong direction.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Don’t beat yourself up Jim, you saw all the right stuff.
So, yes, this is a 1793 Cohen 3. No one took a shot at the grade. It’s in an old PCGS holder and graded VG10. The obverse is really sweet, close to fine, if not at fine, but I think the planchet striations on the back, which reduce clarity of the design, pull the total grade back a bit. Here’s the coin and grade:
Here’s the other ‘93 whose obverse I showed above to illustrate the smooth bust line, along with its reverse, which is reverse 1 for the year. This coin’s reverse shows an aspect that can help you attribute coins, the die breaks and cuds that may develop as coins are repeatedly struck. If present, they can help identify the die you are dealing with, since once present they don’t disappear, only enlarge. In this case, this is 1793’s reverse die 1 and a rim cud developed at about 2 o’clock on the reverse which identifies the die without having to worry about other characteristics, though you always need to double check to confirm.
So the 1/2 cent below is Cohen 1, struck from the first obverse and reverse dies of from the first year any half cents, or for that matter, any coins were struck at the Federal Mint in Philadelphia. Pretty Cool! See the small cud at 2 o’clock on the reverse, it’s not a rim hit.
Now that is truly a cool coin, just to think about it being from the first pair of dies of the first ever half cent coin. Wow. Thank you again for your true help and the fact that you care enough to share this with us.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Perhaps I can ask for some help on this well worn 1809 Classic Head Half Cent. I feel it to be a C-2 for the following reasons:
1809 diagnostics
1...tip of highest leaf barely past 2nd S in States
2...0 in date not low
3...Ball of 9 does not touch middle of 9
4...lowest curl below bust is not directly over the 0 in date
5...rim break/cud on reverse at 2:00 as in Manley's State 4.0 of C-2 actually a later state than 4.0
This is my opinion and would enjoy your thoughts.
Sorry for the photos, but here they are. thank you to those who offer help.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jesbroken - I believe you are correct. Your coin is a C-2 (R.2+). I used most of the die attribution points you mentioned above.
@Tonedeaf - I believe your coin is a 1809/6 C-5 (R.1). The 9 is a little off to the right, and the bottom curl of the 9 touches the loop. On the reverse the top leaf barely sticks out past the last "S" in STATES.
Thanks for posting!!!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
I agree also on the ‘09 C-2 and C-5 9/6. Interestingly, I’ve seen mention that although classically the C-5 was always considered a “9/6,” more appropriately it should be referred to as a “9 over inverted nine” since what happened was that a nine was first punched in upside down, not a six. What I’m not sure of is whether in the font used, there is really any difference between a 6 and upside 9 in terms of design, otherwise the argument is just silly. It is also very convenient just to say 9/6.
OK, here’s one of the junkbox treasures I’m sure you guys are all searching for, the 1809 C-1. This is the reverse where the point of the leaf does not extend beyond the “S.” This variety was only discovered in the 1950’s, and was first considered a great rarity, one of the keys to the whole Cohen series. At the time I obtained the specimen below, it was an R6. I’ve watched it drift down from R6 to R5+, now to R5-. Not a pleasant experience, and one of the pitfalls of coin collecting where new examples of what were once rarities become less so as more examples are found. This occurred with this variety because people started searching through low condition half cents for scarce varieties, just like you guys are doing here. But keep at it, thar’s gold in them thar junkboxes!!!
@NeophyteNumismatist @jesbroken
Thank you both. I had a good idea that the 1809 was the 9/6. What I know for sure is that I need to get more copper and also buy a few books on the varieties.
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
I love the idea of having another copper collector. Honestly, I cannot recommend half cents enough. They provide beautiful classic designs, varieties, scarcity... and honestly, they are relatively affordable compared to other early coins (large cents, dollars, etc.).
Happy to help you however you need! Helping others with copper is how I learn (and have fun).
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Make your best investment in good books, they offer greater return than most of the coins you will own in both savings and enjoyment. You always feel better when you are using qualitative knowledge when searching for or just looking at coins. Having the books you need will be something you will never regret. Best of luck, and I look forward to your coins and your questions, especially before your purchase.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The 1811 is a counterfeit for sure. One way to check these coins is to look at the relationship of leaves and berries on the reverse to the letters of “United States of America” surrounding the wreath.
Coin on eBay, leaf tip is below left stanchion of “A” and berry under right leg of “A.”.
Legitimate 1811 Cohen 1 and 2 below show leaf to left of A and berry between legs
The only other 1811 half cent variety is the Mickley restrike with a completely different reverse:
So this is obviously a nice looking coin, but totally counterfeit.
@DoctorPaper said:
The 1811 is a counterfeit for sure. One way to check these coins is to look at the relationship of leaves and berries on the reverse to the letters of “United States of America” surrounding the wreath.
Coin on eBay, leaf tip is below left stanchion of “A” and berry under right leg of “A.”.
Legitimate 1811 Cohen 1 and 2 below show leaf to left of A and berry between legs
The only other 1811 half cent variety is the Mickley restrike with a completely different reverse:
So this is obviously a nice looking coin, but totally counterfeit.
Exactly.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Comments
How about this 1804.
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
C-13 Plain 4, Stemless wreath R-1
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks!
Maybe another?
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
This type is easy - all Braided Hair half cents are C-1
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Sorry about the poor pictures.
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
Only 1 die pair, C-1
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Sorry about the crappy photo’s here. Bought this from Tom Reynolds 30 years ago and took the photo’s with first gen digital camera. Not sure what to do about getting it TPG’d. Gotta be one of the worst 96’s known, but fills a slot:
@DoctorPaper - 1796 Half cents are prized in any condition. This one would be the C-2 (with pole). There are two versions of this coin, one with a thin planchet (R.4), and one with a thick planchet (R.8+; Unique). Because of the photo, I cannot fully appreciate all of the attribution points... but I would really want to say this is genuine, because it matches from what I can see. If this is a thick planchet, you REALLY have a great coin.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@NeophyteNumismatist
Thanks for the nice comments. It is a thin planchet, about 5 grams in weight. It’s slightly underweigjt, but has lost a bit of mass to circulation and corrosion. What do you think about getting it slabbed for a genuine/details grade?
My 1/2 cent collection was put together over 30 years ago and few of them are slabbed. They are at the bank and I need to rephoto them. The photo’s I’ve got are not as good as they could be. I’m going to put up some interesting ones for your comments so you can educate us all.
This 1794 was obtained at my local bricks and motar shop many years ago. Like the ‘96 it’s got some issues that make slabbing questionable. What you can’t see is the edge lettering is defective. Several letters are missing. It reads, “hund…r a dollar.”
@DoctorPaper - As you are aware, the position on having EAC coins graded is controversial among collectors. The EAC guys like to be able to hold the coin, and brush them to maintain them. Personally, I am in favor of grading because it protects the coin and adds transparency and liquidity to the value of your collection. But it's all preference and/or whether you are trying to sell the coins.
That said, IMO the 1796 is 100% worthy of grading - even in details grades. The 1796 C-2 is rare (as you know), and even in it's condition it may be worth ~$6k (maybe more to the right buyer). If it were me, I would have it graded, and I would have the alpha grade (i.e. AG to G) details grade assigned. This would give you a baseline of where it falls in valuation. Likewise, putting the coin in a holder would offer greater protection than the cotton/paper envelope.
Your 1794 is hard for me to attribute. The coin has a wide date like a C-1, however, the presence of edge lettering (even defective) would negate that assumption. The C-1 is the only variety with this obverse die, so I am very perplexed. Additionally, the C-1 is a very rare (R.8) variety and I have not seen one in such great shape. The clash marks around the "H" on Half Cent of the reverse is a die state that I am unfamiliar with. If I had to make an opinion of this coin, I would say that it is not genuine. However, I do not want to give you false information.
I would like to "phone a friend" and ask @burfle23 and @halfcentman to take a look at this one and opine.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Here's an 1837 Large Cent I had mentioned to the OP for a simple attribution, if I may slip it in here. Looks like the obverse has beaded cords (which I gather means Head of 1838), and the reverse has the small letters.
I'm also curious if it's worth the cost of the variety fee to have the Newcomb # put on the label when I have it graded? Thanks!
I agree with Neo, this coin if genuine, is a terror to attribute. So many small things off, the date spread, the CENT tilt and curved alignment.I'm afraid its counterfeit also. Hope I'm wrong.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
One other thought I've had about this coin, since it has obviously been around a long time, is if it has acquired any PVC residue, and should that be dealt with, and how, before slabbing?
Large cent attribution is not my strong point at all - Matron Head Modified is where my knowledge stops (unfortunately). I don't see any slimy green residue on this coin. Does it feel sticky or give you an indication that there is PVC residue?
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
My expert states the 1794 is a genuine C1; only 5 known to him with the blundered edge and it is common among the 5 (6 now?).
No, not necessarily. I can tell PVC on silver coins. It's just that there's some thin light colored surface haze on mostly the left obverse field. Can be seen when viewed at an angle under light using a loupe. Could be normal from old handling.
Thanks @burfle23 ! Clearly I need some help, and glad you are here for it!!!! Thanks x 1,000,000
@DoctorPaper - With this information from @burfle23 , I would 100% get the 1974 graded also. I have never seen such a nice example of a C-1, and I was unaware of the blundered edge. This is a very rare bird indeed! Wow!!!!
(And... I am so sorry for posting bad information above).
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@OKCC my guess would be that the red is mellowing to steel. But, I would love to see this coin in hand. It looks nice!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Like Neo, I did not know of a blundered edge. Thank you, @burfle23, without the help of your calibur of knowledge I would be well over my head, evidently.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks guys, @Neophyte Numismatist and @burfle23, I was aware of the rarity of this particular blunder, which can be seen on some of the other edge lettered varieties as well. It seems to me the blunder is one of the potential reasons for NOT slabbing the coin, since that makes the blunder non visible, though I think there may be some special slabs where the edge can be seen. Large cents and Bust halves are the other type of coins where you see some of these lettering blunders. The point is, when you have a variety of coin that is edge lettered, never forget to look closely at that "third" side of the coin. You can cherry pick up some really valuable coins that way.
I'm sorry the pictures of coins from my collection are so poor. I'm considering reshooting them with better equipment.
OK here’s an interesting one for your consideration and it’s an older variety that I don’t see illustrated upthread. You should know it’s got a lettered edge and it weighs 110 grains.
@DoctorPaper the 1795 has the markers of a C-1a, thick planchet with a lettered edge. However,I thought the thick planchet weighed 104 gr, but you say 110. I would not anticipate the coin to get heavier. Teach me, what gives here?
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Yes it is a little heavy and with the pole it should be a C-1a. It has the crooked letters in HALF CENT and the dot in the upper 2nd 0. Appears real other than the weight. Is it fake?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
No, it’s not a fake. The weights on these early coins, particularly coppers, were somewhat irregular. We’re talking about about 5% tolerance here. Additionally, in the 1790’s the mint was very short of finished copper sheets from which to punch planchets. The usual supply from London had dried up. By 1796 they only had enough copper to mint a couple thousand 1/2 cents, mostly defective.
The mint took extraordinary steps to find copper they could use to mint half cents and used such things as half cent planchets punched from spoiled large cents or colonial coppers, especially Nova Constallatio and Talbot Allum and Lee tokens because of their relatively high quality. There are stories they stripped copper sheeting off the hulls of derelict boats to make planchets. It is fairly common to find half cents minted in this era where you can see the undertypes of large cents and colonial coins under the federal half cent design. In any case, in this era, you can’t use coin weight of coppers to decide if a coin is real or not. (Silver and gold coins are a different story-they were fanatical about the weight of these, adjusting the planchet weight with files if need be).
For the 1795 Cohen 1, the most tell tale diagnostic is the “I” in the date (with the pole). The mint was in such disarray at this time possibly due to a yellow fever epidemic sickening most of the workers, they couldn’t find a “1” die and substituted a capital letter “I” instead. That’s the dead giveaway for this variety.
Here’s a 1797 Cohen 1 which demonstrates the problems they were having finding acceptable planchets. This half cent planchet was cut out of a 1794 Talbot, Allum & Lee Token. You can see parts of the undertype lettering on both the obverse and reverse even though the half cent is pretty low grade. Wish I had one on a cut down large cent planchet, but I don’t have one in my collection.
Love this - thanks
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@DoctorPaper. Wow, what a treasure trove of information. Have you written a book? If so, what is it's title? If not, please do.
Thank you.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Very kind words Jim. No, no numismatic books for me though I have published quite a bit throughout my medical research career.
What I've been writing about here is described in the major texts on identifying and attributing half cents. If you guys are really interested in the subject, there are 3 books I'd recommend-all have great photos which make attributing coins pretty easy (it's the beat up half cents that cause the ID issues).
Roger S. Cohen, American Half Cents, the "Little Half Sisters," second ed., 1982
Walter S. Breen, Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of United States Half Cents 1793-1857, 1983
Ronald P. Manley, The Half Cent Die State Book, 1793-1857, 1998
These books show up on occasion on eBay or the internet. If you are interested in half cents, any one of these would be a great attribution resource. If you were to join the EAC (Early American Coppers Club), they maintain a free lending library where you can borrow these books for free. I've been inactive for a while there; they may have digitized their library for all I know.
From a personal point of view, I strongly recommend half cents as an area of interest. You have a shot at completing or almost completing (1796 is a problem) a date set without destroying your pocketbook. Though the coins should be rare based on mintages, they are pretty available because few people collect them. A lot of them are in surprisingly good condition because they evidently did not circulate a whole lot in daily commerce. It is still possible to find overlooked rarieties if you're attentive to detail and have a bit of knowledge. If you really get into it, you can start collecting them by Cohen type and even die state because so few people do that.
Thank you and I have all three and 4 or 5 additional. Trying to read the prefaces and the author's story of the creation of the half cents and am learning, but only started on them last winter and large cents the year before. What I have found to be a true benefit for my collecting purposes are the damaged specimens that most will not look at. I can afford far better condition coins with details grades yet with nice details(no pun intended). Here is an example that I paid less than $50 for. I can live with the scratches in order to view the beauty of the entire coin and its attributes.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jesbbroken
Very nice example of advanced die crumbling on that reverse. As I’m sure you know, people try to collect coins with reverses showing the progression of this particular deterioration. As you say, who cares if there is some damage to your coin as long as you can focus on the important elements of the coin?
Here’s my own example of a damaged coin of this variety showing the die crumbling at a slightly earlier stage than your own coin. Of course the obverses of both our coins also show the “spiked chin” defect of this variety. This obverse die damage was caused by a set screw falling on the dies and gouging the obverse die when coins were struck.
Here's another scratched 1804. Sorry for the pics, coin in an ANACS holder and truly hard for me to photograph well.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Ok guys, let’s get down to brass tacks. Here’s a 1793. Can you attribute it? I’ve told you I don’t have many slabbed half cents, but this one is straight graded in a PCGS slab. The planchet (or as old timers refer to it, the flan) is seen to be defective on the reverse, but this is how it came out of the presses and is not considered damaged. Remember, the mint was having trouble getting good planchets and put out a lot of coins like this, so it is fully acceptable to PCGS for grading.
For bonus points, what is the PCGS grade?
C-2, R-3 Bust curvature not smooth, fraction wedged with extended divisor and stem that is not near end of ribbon. My opinion.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Saying it right but deducing the variety wrong.
Condition of the original coin anyone?
Below is the smooth curvature bust which goes with C-1 and C-2 (the 'hooked curvature' or non-smooth goes with 1793 varieties C-3 and C-4).
To those following along, look at the bottom edge of the obverse bust. In the quiz coin first posted, the line made by tracing the bottom edge takes a sharp downward turn, like a cliff. The other 1793 obverse, below, has a smooth line, like a weathered hill in the distance. There are other differences between the two obverses like the distance of the pole from the neck, where the point of the bust's hairline is and the shape of the cap, but the contour of the bottom of the bust allows ID of very low grade and damaged coins, if you can make out much of the wreath on the reverse.
What a silly mistake. My bad and I absolutely knew that. With the long stems not touching the ends of the ribbon is what tricked me into away from the C-3. It is the C-3. Again, my apologies for trying to be quick and not measuring twice. As soon as I saw the non smooth ark of the bust, it was aha and I rolled in the wrong direction.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Don’t beat yourself up Jim, you saw all the right stuff.
So, yes, this is a 1793 Cohen 3. No one took a shot at the grade. It’s in an old PCGS holder and graded VG10. The obverse is really sweet, close to fine, if not at fine, but I think the planchet striations on the back, which reduce clarity of the design, pull the total grade back a bit. Here’s the coin and grade:
Here’s the other ‘93 whose obverse I showed above to illustrate the smooth bust line, along with its reverse, which is reverse 1 for the year. This coin’s reverse shows an aspect that can help you attribute coins, the die breaks and cuds that may develop as coins are repeatedly struck. If present, they can help identify the die you are dealing with, since once present they don’t disappear, only enlarge. In this case, this is 1793’s reverse die 1 and a rim cud developed at about 2 o’clock on the reverse which identifies the die without having to worry about other characteristics, though you always need to double check to confirm.
So the 1/2 cent below is Cohen 1, struck from the first obverse and reverse dies of from the first year any half cents, or for that matter, any coins were struck at the Federal Mint in Philadelphia. Pretty Cool! See the small cud at 2 o’clock on the reverse, it’s not a rim hit.
Now that is truly a cool coin, just to think about it being from the first pair of dies of the first ever half cent coin. Wow. Thank you again for your true help and the fact that you care enough to share this with us.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Very cool coins and commentary, @DoctorPaper ! Thanks for contributing to the thread.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Perhaps I can ask for some help on this well worn 1809 Classic Head Half Cent. I feel it to be a C-2 for the following reasons:
1809 diagnostics
1...tip of highest leaf barely past 2nd S in States
2...0 in date not low
3...Ball of 9 does not touch middle of 9
4...lowest curl below bust is not directly over the 0 in date
5...rim break/cud on reverse at 2:00 as in Manley's State 4.0 of C-2 actually a later state than 4.0
This is my opinion and would enjoy your thoughts.
Sorry for the photos, but here they are. thank you to those who offer help.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Another 1809
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
@jesbroken - I believe you are correct. Your coin is a C-2 (R.2+). I used most of the die attribution points you mentioned above.
@Tonedeaf - I believe your coin is a 1809/6 C-5 (R.1). The 9 is a little off to the right, and the bottom curl of the 9 touches the loop. On the reverse the top leaf barely sticks out past the last "S" in STATES.
Thanks for posting!!!
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
@Tonedeaf I agree with Neo. Your's is the inverted 9/6 a C-5 (R.1)
Thanks @NeophyteNumismatist for the confirmation.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I agree also on the ‘09 C-2 and C-5 9/6. Interestingly, I’ve seen mention that although classically the C-5 was always considered a “9/6,” more appropriately it should be referred to as a “9 over inverted nine” since what happened was that a nine was first punched in upside down, not a six. What I’m not sure of is whether in the font used, there is really any difference between a 6 and upside 9 in terms of design, otherwise the argument is just silly. It is also very convenient just to say 9/6.
OK, here’s one of the junkbox treasures I’m sure you guys are all searching for, the 1809 C-1. This is the reverse where the point of the leaf does not extend beyond the “S.” This variety was only discovered in the 1950’s, and was first considered a great rarity, one of the keys to the whole Cohen series. At the time I obtained the specimen below, it was an R6. I’ve watched it drift down from R6 to R5+, now to R5-. Not a pleasant experience, and one of the pitfalls of coin collecting where new examples of what were once rarities become less so as more examples are found. This occurred with this variety because people started searching through low condition half cents for scarce varieties, just like you guys are doing here. But keep at it, thar’s gold in them thar junkboxes!!!
@NeophyteNumismatist
@jesbroken
Thank you both. I had a good idea that the 1809 was the 9/6. What I know for sure is that I need to get more copper and also buy a few books on the varieties.
Tonedeaf is a nickname given to me in reference to my guitar playing ability.
I love the idea of having another copper collector. Honestly, I cannot recommend half cents enough. They provide beautiful classic designs, varieties, scarcity... and honestly, they are relatively affordable compared to other early coins (large cents, dollars, etc.).
Happy to help you however you need! Helping others with copper is how I learn (and have fun).
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Make your best investment in good books, they offer greater return than most of the coins you will own in both savings and enjoyment. You always feel better when you are using qualitative knowledge when searching for or just looking at coins. Having the books you need will be something you will never regret. Best of luck, and I look forward to your coins and your questions, especially before your purchase.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
We haven't done one in a while
...
Latest example I documented from the Bay; pretty good looking example!
C-1 Wide Date, but counterfeit as most everything is a little off on reverse; berries, leaf tips?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
beat me to it
who else has some half cents to attribute?
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
The 1811 is a counterfeit for sure. One way to check these coins is to look at the relationship of leaves and berries on the reverse to the letters of “United States of America” surrounding the wreath.
Coin on eBay, leaf tip is below left stanchion of “A” and berry under right leg of “A.”.
Legitimate 1811 Cohen 1 and 2 below show leaf to left of A and berry between legs
The only other 1811 half cent variety is the Mickley restrike with a completely different reverse:
So this is obviously a nice looking coin, but totally counterfeit.
Exactly.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain