@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
RP’s for this design are not going to be as popular as you might think.
Let’s just leave it at that and wait until this plays out when issued.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
RP’s for this design are not going to be as popular as you might think.
Let’s just leave it at that and wait until this plays out when issued.
Sure thing, but please keep in mind that I've set the bar pretty low. 250K is going to be a pretty low hurdle when they instantly sold out 175K and 200K of whatever uncs they offered for sale in 2021, and then easily sold out at 275K for uncs in 2023, and sold more than 300K of each proof.
While RPs might not be your particular groove, people are just not going to reject them, as evidenced by other RP issues that also sold out. People like RPs, people like Morgan and Peace Dollars, and people like first time issues of just about anything.
Trust me, and let's both remember to come back here on 11/14, when they sell out same day, or, at the latest, shortly after noon on 11/15, when HHLs are lifted. There, I said it!
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
That's okay. Didn't you also predict a sellout of the Proofs?
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
I don't think "true collectors" are the target market for these.
I don't think there's any such thing as "true collectors". [Hate the term]
A lot of "true Morgan collectors" eschew the 21st century offerings on principle. A lot of "true collectors" won't buy any modern Mint product on principle.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
Hey, I agree with you!!!
NICE!!!! And thanks! I'll try not to get used to it! 😀
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
"A so called true collector" of the Morgan dollar, would not purchase this recycled for the umpteen time, classic bullion coin. That's my take
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
My take is this...if you've decided to collect anything modern from the Mint...it's more likely going to be a "new" coin with a classic design.
And if you're not going to buy anything modern from the Mint...it doesn't really matter for this discussion,
The only possible exception to this might be the annual Silver and Gold Eagles (although I like the original ASE reverse more myself and are now buying fewer with the redesigned reverse)...as they also have crossover bullion appeal...but also have that classic design thing going for them.
But again...for many on this board...the cost of the Morgan/Peace coins/sets are small potatoes relative to the value of their overall collections...so there's little downside, but some upside potential.
[Pulling on my asbestos drawers now for the flaming to come]
And that's it from me today...I'm off to buy a 1902 slabbed Liberty Nickel now.
Anyone have any idea why there are 21,340 more Peace $1's available, than Morgan $1's left?
Because they've sold 21,340 less Peace dollars.
Gosh, I never considered that.
I'm not sure what other explanation you want. Plenty if people prefer one to the other.
This ^^^^. If it needs to be said, for a variety of reasons, the Morgan series has always been more popular than the Peace. This is just another manifestation of that, although a 20K variance on over 300K in sales isn't really material. Next year they'll drop the mintage to 300K for each, and you won't see any difference at all.
023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 260,594 (30)
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK – 40 COIN 330 –
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 311,009 +161
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) – 40 COIN 443 –
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 258,872 +1
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK – 40 COIN 338 –
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 286,875 (761)
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) – 40 COIN 438 –
So many “Johnny come lately’s” on this forum just post for the sake of pushing their numbers up.
They just know it all.
29,000 posts in 6 years. Yikes.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
"A so called true collector" of the Morgan dollar, would not purchase this recycled for the umpteen time, classic bullion coin. That's my take
But you are misinterpreting the term, a “true collector” that wants a PROOF Morgan—and can’t afford a classic—wants it in the same finish/format—-a classic CAMEO PROOF; not a new fangled version Reverse Proof or any other derivative.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
"A so called true collector" of the Morgan dollar, would not purchase this recycled for the umpteen time, classic bullion coin. That's my take
But you are misinterpreting the term, a “true collector” that wants a PROOF Morgan—and can’t afford a classic—wants it in the same finish/format—-a classic CAMEO PROOF; not a new fangled version Reverse Proof or any other derivative.
Assumes a fact not in evidence. If a collector is willing to buy a modern copy in proof, why wouldn't they also POTENTIALLY want an RP? After all, the modern proofs look nothing like the originals anyway.
Do you really think that even a significant minority of the buyers of these coins are classic Morgan collectors looking for a proof type? I don't.
I’ve found that many of the buyers prefer the Morgan Proof as it fondly reminds them of some of the original Morgan proofs that are out of reach.
Reverse proof is a new finish never offered for the classics.
@coiner said:
I’ve found that many of the buyers prefer the Morgan Proof as it fondly reminds them of some of the original Morgan proofs that are out of reach.
Reverse proof is a new finish never offered for the classics.
I've never seen an original Morgan proof that looks anything like the modern version.
Finally got my TrueView's. Have to agree, these do not look like the original classics, but they are top quality with deep mirrors. I also think the reverse proofs will be quite popular. I plan to get several.
Here is the Peace True View. I do think the Mint does too much die etching to get the cameo on the modern versions which takes away some details. This is why I think the reverse proof may have a better look to it, with only the fields etched.
...My newish Mustang also functions much better than the 1964 version!
Hey now, you touched on the "Ford Mustang" subject! 😆
Some things are better left alone!
The '64 Classic, is just that, Classic!
No need to change.
Now, back to coins...
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
Well...I just saw online that my proofs all graded as 70s. For both the Uncs & Proofs, I looked over them with a loupe. Two of the Uncs had dings, so I didn't send them in. The Proofs all looked fine. Everything came back as 70s. This must mean that I'm a world-class coin grader now, right??? My OCD will kick in, though, because I have 5 each of the slabbed Uncs, and 6 each of the proofs. Maybe I should crack out a Proof Morgan & a Proof Peace to balance things out?
@coiner said:
I’ve found that many of the buyers prefer the Morgan Proof as it fondly reminds them of some of the original Morgan proofs that are out of reach.
Reverse proof is a new finish never offered for the classics.
I've never seen an original Morgan proof that looks anything like the modern version.
You must have been a difficult child to deal with.
Can you just take it at face value that a normal “cameo” proof is the finish utilized on a classic proof Morgan?!?
They didn’t manufacture reverse proof Morgans in the 1880’s and 1890’s.
Now just let it lie. You don’t need to have the last word on every topic.
Time for me to take a rest from this forum.
When a few dominate every point and counterpoint—let the know it all’s have all the interaction with themselves.
@coiner said:
Time for me to take a rest from this forum.
When a few dominate every point and counterpoint—let the know it all’s have all the interaction with themselves.
People say that all the time. But it translates as "why can't I have the last word?" If you don't want to engage in a discussion, don't post opinions in public. And, if you do, I really don't see why a civil discussion should be viewed as problematic.
@coiner said:
I’ve found that many of the buyers prefer the Morgan Proof as it fondly reminds them of some of the original Morgan proofs that are out of reach.
Reverse proof is a new finish never offered for the classics.
I've never seen an original Morgan proof that looks anything like the modern version.
You must have been a difficult child to deal with.
Can you just take it at face value that a normal “cameo” proof is the finish utilized on a classic proof Morgan?!?
They didn’t manufacture reverse proof Morgans in the 1880’s and 1890’s.
Now just let it lie. You don’t need to have the last word on every topic.
They are NOT the 19th century proof finishes. They aren't even generated the same way. In fact, you can see people on this forum complaining about that very fact. There was even a discussion over whether people would actually buy a proof that was made in the 19th century style or whether they would all get returned when they weren't cameos.
Please. Have the last word. We all know that's what you want...
Grading populations and rate or 70s from PCGS and NGC through 9/23/2023
.
1) the big boy label types (eg, FDOI, AR) now have stagnant numbers, and are largely fully accounted for now.
2) the collectors label types (eg, base label and FR) continue to grow. At this point, these label types have gained the majority of the grading population at PCGS and are moving in that direction at NGC.
3) the lower rate of 70s in the collector label types (eg, base label and FR) pull down the overall rate of 70s as these label types move towards 50% of the graded population and beyond.
4) of further interest, within the collector label types, the base label rate of 70 is lower than the rate of 70 seen with FR,ER labels. (next screenshot)
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
That just confirms that the "big boys" send in their bulk subs with min 70 grades and the collectors of course, do not, and they wind up with a lower 70 success rate.
@ProofCollection said:
That just confirms that the "big boys" send in their bulk subs with min 70 grades and the collectors of course, do not, and they wind up with a lower 70 success rate.
Remember that argument a couple of months ago? Thank God PCGS stepped in and confirmed it or we might still be having the argument.
I don't think there's any such thing as "true collectors". [Hate the term]
A lot of "true Morgan collectors" eschew the 21st century offerings on principle. A lot of "true collectors" won't buy any modern Mint product on principle.
I agree with the “true collectors” thing. Every hobby I’m involved with from coins, to gemstones, to Hot Wheels, this comes up over and over and over again. I’m sooooo done with that term.
I do not eschew the new releases. Only the cash grab CC and O privy mark releases. That was a shameful act on the mint’s part.
I think the RPs will sell out. But, not immediately. Maybe in a full 24 hours to a week. Just my $.02.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
This is your best bet to get a cameo proof Morgan. Now they should do other series' too. I'd love to see them revive the Seated Liberty series. The 200th anniversary isn't that far off.
@olympicsos said:
This is your best bet to get a cameo proof Morgan. Now they should do other series' too. I'd love to see them revive the Seated Liberty series. The 200th anniversary isn't that far off.
I would be totally on board for a proof Liberty Seated dollar. Maybe a trade dollar and a Gobrecht dollar also.
@olympicsos said:
This is your best bet to get a cameo proof Morgan. Now they should do other series' too. I'd love to see them revive the Seated Liberty series. The 200th anniversary isn't that far off.
They missed the boat on the 150th birthday of the Trade dollar this year.
Numbers sold daily is almost as dismal as the $100 High Relief Gold Coins, except that one should sell out before Christmas.
.
The sales stocklevel on August 9 at 1:47pm PDT (about 4h45m into the release) was 71,244 for the Morgan proof, and 78,224 for the Peace proof. ....which means that since about 4h45m into the release day, the sales stock level has reduced 6,302 for the Morgan proof (about 137 coins/day), and the sales stock level for the Peace proof has increased by 10,317 coins. ...with no HHL.
.
The demand for the proofs is not anywhere near the 400,000 mintage. Current sales at 328,729 Morgan proofs and 304,395 Peace proofs.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Numbers sold daily is almost as dismal as the $100 High Relief Gold Coins, except that one should sell out before Christmas.
.
The sales stocklevel on August 9 at 1:47pm PDT (about 4h45m into the release) was 71,244 for the Morgan proof, and 78,224 for the Peace proof. ....which means that since about 4h45m into the release day, the sales stock level has reduced 6,302 for the Morgan proof (about 137 coins/day), and the sales stock level for the Peace proof has increased by 10,317 coins. ...with no HHL.
.
The demand for the proofs is not anywhere near the 400,000 mintage. Current sales at 328,729 Morgan proofs and 304,395 Peace proofs.
This ^^^. The Mint swung and missed. No shame in that.
If they are smart, to maintain interest (and values), they'll reduce mintages next year to 250K for both uncirc and proof. It turns out the additional interest in proofs over uncircs is not what the Mint thought it would be, based on how other coins sell.
Otherwise, it's going to be a downward spiral, where they incrementally reduce mintages and demand follows it down.
Will the Mint end sales of the 2023 Morgan/Peace proofs at the end of this year? If so, the final net mintage will likely be lower than 400,000 and more reflective of actual demand.
@Overdate said:
Will the Mint end sales of the 2023 Morgan/Peace proofs at the end of this year? If so, the final net mintage will likely be lower than 400,000 and more reflective of actual demand.
Depends on whether they struck them all. If they did, they'll keep selling them.
Numbers sold daily is almost as dismal as the $100 High Relief Gold Coins, except that one should sell out before Christmas.
.
The sales stocklevel on August 9 at 1:47pm PDT (about 4h45m into the release) was 71,244 for the Morgan proof, and 78,224 for the Peace proof. ....which means that since about 4h45m into the release day, the sales stock level has reduced 6,302 for the Morgan proof (about 137 coins/day), and the sales stock level for the Peace proof has increased by 10,317 coins. ...with no HHL.
.
The demand for the proofs is not anywhere near the 400,000 mintage. Current sales at 328,729 Morgan proofs and 304,395 Peace proofs.
This ^^^. The Mint swung and missed. No shame in that.
If they are smart, to maintain interest (and values), they'll reduce mintages next year to 250K for both uncirc and proof. It turns out the additional interest in proofs over uncircs is not what the Mint thought it would be, based on how other coins sell.
Otherwise, it's going to be a downward spiral, where they incrementally reduce mintages and demand follows it down.
There's a way to avoid all this by restructuring the silver coin offerings. Make the Morgan and Peace Dollar 1.5 inch 1 oz coins with a bullion version and collector versions like the ASE (Canada 1 oz silver maple leaves are similar diameter to the silver dollar). I'd even see if there would be any interest in a modern Seated Liberty Dollar or Gobrecht Dollar which would be 1.5 inch 1 oz coins. The designs could either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
Get rid of the ASE as it is and create a 5 oz silver bullion program. You'd have a 5 oz silver bullion program that includes a 5 oz silver version of the St. Gaudens Cent, Type One Buffalo Nickel, Mercury Dime, Type Two Standing Liberty Quarter, Walking Liberty Half Dollar which would be 65.2mm which is the diameter of 5 oz Canadian and Mexican silver bullion coins to allow for better relief. You can have the designs either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
@olympicsos said:
This is your best bet to get a cameo proof Morgan. Now they should do other series' too. I'd love to see them revive the Seated Liberty series. The 200th anniversary isn't that far off.
I would be totally on board for a proof Liberty Seated dollar. Maybe a trade dollar and a Gobrecht dollar also.
It's a very hard to collect series and this would spur interest in it.
Numbers sold daily is almost as dismal as the $100 High Relief Gold Coins, except that one should sell out before Christmas.
.
The sales stocklevel on August 9 at 1:47pm PDT (about 4h45m into the release) was 71,244 for the Morgan proof, and 78,224 for the Peace proof. ....which means that since about 4h45m into the release day, the sales stock level has reduced 6,302 for the Morgan proof (about 137 coins/day), and the sales stock level for the Peace proof has increased by 10,317 coins. ...with no HHL.
.
The demand for the proofs is not anywhere near the 400,000 mintage. Current sales at 328,729 Morgan proofs and 304,395 Peace proofs.
This ^^^. The Mint swung and missed. No shame in that.
If they are smart, to maintain interest (and values), they'll reduce mintages next year to 250K for both uncirc and proof. It turns out the additional interest in proofs over uncircs is not what the Mint thought it would be, based on how other coins sell.
Otherwise, it's going to be a downward spiral, where they incrementally reduce mintages and demand follows it down.
There's a way to avoid all this by restructuring the silver coin offerings. Make the Morgan and Peace Dollar 1.5 inch 1 oz coins with a bullion version and collector versions like the ASE (Canada 1 oz silver maple leaves are similar diameter to the silver dollar). I'd even see if there would be any interest in a modern Seated Liberty Dollar or Gobrecht Dollar which would be 1.5 inch 1 oz coins. The designs could either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
Get rid of the ASE as it is and create a 5 oz silver bullion program. You'd have a 5 oz silver bullion program that includes a 5 oz silver version of the St. Gaudens Cent, Type One Buffalo Nickel, Mercury Dime, Type Two Standing Liberty Quarter, Walking Liberty Half Dollar which would be 65.2mm which is the diameter of 5 oz Canadian and Mexican silver bullion coins to allow for better relief. You can have the designs either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
Sounds great, but you really are doing nothing more than proposing fixing something that isn't broken. The Mint has so far sold over 1 million Morgan and Peace Dollars at over $100 per ounce of silver. I doubt they feel the need to rejigger everything in the manner you have suggested, as though that would help them sell more than 300,000 proof examples of anything.
They sell tens of millions of one ounce silver bullion coins. There is very limited demand for 5 oz bullion. They tried that.
Everything else you suggested sounds interesting, but has nothing to do with them overproducing Morgan and Peace Dollar proofs by around 100K. Selling tens of thousands of any of them would not have anything to do with the Morgan and Peace Dollars, and nothing you are suggesting would be more popular than the Morgan and Peace Dollars already are.
Make the Morgan and Peace Dollar 1.5 inch 1 oz coins with a bullion version and collector versions like the ASE (Canada 1 oz silver maple leaves are similar diameter to the silver dollar).
>
As I see it, the main drawback would be that the 1 oz. Morgan/Peace dollars would look too similar to the classic and recent versions containing less silver. Too much opportunity for confusion and uncertainty by the general public.
Comments
Your Proof Peace Dollar looks great!
RP’s for this design are not going to be as popular as you might think.
Let’s just leave it at that and wait until this plays out when issued.
Sure thing, but please keep in mind that I've set the bar pretty low. 250K is going to be a pretty low hurdle when they instantly sold out 175K and 200K of whatever uncs they offered for sale in 2021, and then easily sold out at 275K for uncs in 2023, and sold more than 300K of each proof.
While RPs might not be your particular groove, people are just not going to reject them, as evidenced by other RP issues that also sold out. People like RPs, people like Morgan and Peace Dollars, and people like first time issues of just about anything.
Trust me, and let's both remember to come back here on 11/14, when they sell out same day, or, at the latest, shortly after noon on 11/15, when HHLs are lifted. There, I said it!
That's okay. Didn't you also predict a sellout of the Proofs?
I'm feeling better about the RP already.
Hey, I agree with you!!!
I don't think there's any such thing as "true collectors". [Hate the term]
A lot of "true Morgan collectors" eschew the 21st century offerings on principle. A lot of "true collectors" won't buy any modern Mint product on principle.
NICE!!!! And thanks! I'll try not to get used to it! 😀
Glad to see that some on this board are getting along today...
...of course, there is always tomorrow!
BST references available on request
"A so called true collector" of the Morgan dollar, would not purchase this recycled for the umpteen time, classic bullion coin. That's my take
Stocklevel/availablecount....Proof Morgan=66,347....Proof Peace=87,687
Those are lofty numbers.
Anyone have any idea why there are 21,340 more Peace $1's available, than Morgan $1's left?
My take is this...if you've decided to collect anything modern from the Mint...it's more likely going to be a "new" coin with a classic design.
And if you're not going to buy anything modern from the Mint...it doesn't really matter for this discussion,
The only possible exception to this might be the annual Silver and Gold Eagles (although I like the original ASE reverse more myself and are now buying fewer with the redesigned reverse)...as they also have crossover bullion appeal...but also have that classic design thing going for them.
But again...for many on this board...the cost of the Morgan/Peace coins/sets are small potatoes relative to the value of their overall collections...so there's little downside, but some upside potential.
[Pulling on my asbestos drawers now for the flaming to come]
And that's it from me today...I'm off to buy a 1902 slabbed Liberty Nickel now.
I mailed mine in on Sept. 7'th...I know, cutting it close!!!
Because they've sold 21,340 less Peace dollars.
Gosh, I never considered that.
I'm not sure what other explanation you want. Plenty of people prefer one to the other.
This ^^^^. If it needs to be said, for a variety of reasons, the Morgan series has always been more popular than the Peace. This is just another manifestation of that, although a 20K variance on over 300K in sales isn't really material. Next year they'll drop the mintage to 300K for each, and you won't see any difference at all.
Not looking good for one Specific Poster...
023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 260,594 (30)
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK – 40 COIN 330 –
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 311,009 +161
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) – 40 COIN 443 –
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 258,872 +1
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK – 40 COIN 338 –
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 286,875 (761)
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) – 40 COIN 438 –
So many “Johnny come lately’s” on this forum just post for the sake of pushing their numbers up.
They just know it all.
29,000 posts in 6 years. Yikes.
But you are misinterpreting the term, a “true collector” that wants a PROOF Morgan—and can’t afford a classic—wants it in the same finish/format—-a classic CAMEO PROOF; not a new fangled version Reverse Proof or any other derivative.
Assumes a fact not in evidence. If a collector is willing to buy a modern copy in proof, why wouldn't they also POTENTIALLY want an RP? After all, the modern proofs look nothing like the originals anyway.
Do you really think that even a significant minority of the buyers of these coins are classic Morgan collectors looking for a proof type? I don't.
I’ve found that many of the buyers prefer the Morgan Proof as it fondly reminds them of some of the original Morgan proofs that are out of reach.
Reverse proof is a new finish never offered for the classics.
I've never seen an original Morgan proof that looks anything like the modern version.
Finally got my TrueView's. Have to agree, these do not look like the original classics, but they are top quality with deep mirrors. I also think the reverse proofs will be quite popular. I plan to get several.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Here is the Peace True View. I do think the Mint does too much die etching to get the cameo on the modern versions which takes away some details. This is why I think the reverse proof may have a better look to it, with only the fields etched.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
To be totally/brutally honest...the quality/look of 1986 Eagles isn't the same as 2023 Eagles...technology changes things.
My newish Mustang also functions much better than the 1964 version!
PS...But I'd still like some PL 2021/2023 Morgan and Peace Uncs!
...My newish Mustang also functions much better than the 1964 version!
Hey now, you touched on the "Ford Mustang" subject! 😆
Some things are better left alone!
The '64 Classic, is just that, Classic!
No need to change.
Now, back to coins...
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Well...I just saw online that my proofs all graded as 70s. For both the Uncs & Proofs, I looked over them with a loupe. Two of the Uncs had dings, so I didn't send them in. The Proofs all looked fine. Everything came back as 70s. This must mean that I'm a world-class coin grader now, right???
My OCD will kick in, though, because I have 5 each of the slabbed Uncs, and 6 each of the proofs. Maybe I should crack out a Proof Morgan & a Proof Peace to balance things out? 
Best carnival ride EVER!!!
...and now back to coins...
You must have been a difficult child to deal with.
Can you just take it at face value that a normal “cameo” proof is the finish utilized on a classic proof Morgan?!?
They didn’t manufacture reverse proof Morgans in the 1880’s and 1890’s.
Now just let it lie. You don’t need to have the last word on every topic.
Time for me to take a rest from this forum.
When a few dominate every point and counterpoint—let the know it all’s have all the interaction with themselves.
People say that all the time. But it translates as "why can't I have the last word?" If you don't want to engage in a discussion, don't post opinions in public. And, if you do, I really don't see why a civil discussion should be viewed as problematic.
They are NOT the 19th century proof finishes. They aren't even generated the same way. In fact, you can see people on this forum complaining about that very fact. There was even a discussion over whether people would actually buy a proof that was made in the 19th century style or whether they would all get returned when they weren't cameos.
Please. Have the last word. We all know that's what you want...
Here we go again 🥱🥱🥱
Grading populations and rate or 70s from PCGS and NGC through 9/23/2023
.
1) the big boy label types (eg, FDOI, AR) now have stagnant numbers, and are largely fully accounted for now.
2) the collectors label types (eg, base label and FR) continue to grow. At this point, these label types have gained the majority of the grading population at PCGS and are moving in that direction at NGC.
3) the lower rate of 70s in the collector label types (eg, base label and FR) pull down the overall rate of 70s as these label types move towards 50% of the graded population and beyond.
4) of further interest, within the collector label types, the base label rate of 70 is lower than the rate of 70 seen with FR,ER labels. (next screenshot)
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
That just confirms that the "big boys" send in their bulk subs with min 70 grades and the collectors of course, do not, and they wind up with a lower 70 success rate.
Remember that argument a couple of months ago? Thank God PCGS stepped in and confirmed it or we might still be having the argument.
Remember -->
BST references available on request
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
I agree with the “true collectors” thing. Every hobby I’m involved with from coins, to gemstones, to Hot Wheels, this comes up over and over and over again. I’m sooooo done with that term.
I do not eschew the new releases. Only the cash grab CC and O privy mark releases. That was a shameful act on the mint’s part.
I think the RPs will sell out. But, not immediately. Maybe in a full 24 hours to a week. Just my $.02.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
This is your best bet to get a cameo proof Morgan. Now they should do other series' too. I'd love to see them revive the Seated Liberty series. The 200th anniversary isn't that far off.
I would be totally on board for a proof Liberty Seated dollar. Maybe a trade dollar and a Gobrecht dollar also.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
They missed the boat on the 150th birthday of the Trade dollar this year.
Stocklevel/availablecount....Proof Morgan=64,942....Proof Peace=88,541
Numbers sold daily is almost as dismal as the $100 High Relief Gold Coins, except that one should sell out before Christmas.
.
The sales stocklevel on August 9 at 1:47pm PDT (about 4h45m into the release) was 71,244 for the Morgan proof, and 78,224 for the Peace proof. ....which means that since about 4h45m into the release day, the sales stock level has reduced 6,302 for the Morgan proof (about 137 coins/day), and the sales stock level for the Peace proof has increased by 10,317 coins. ...with no HHL.
.
The demand for the proofs is not anywhere near the 400,000 mintage. Current sales at 328,729 Morgan proofs and 304,395 Peace proofs.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
This ^^^. The Mint swung and missed. No shame in that.
If they are smart, to maintain interest (and values), they'll reduce mintages next year to 250K for both uncirc and proof. It turns out the additional interest in proofs over uncircs is not what the Mint thought it would be, based on how other coins sell.
Otherwise, it's going to be a downward spiral, where they incrementally reduce mintages and demand follows it down.
Will the Mint end sales of the 2023 Morgan/Peace proofs at the end of this year? If so, the final net mintage will likely be lower than 400,000 and more reflective of actual demand.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Depends on whether they struck them all. If they did, they'll keep selling them.
There's a way to avoid all this by restructuring the silver coin offerings. Make the Morgan and Peace Dollar 1.5 inch 1 oz coins with a bullion version and collector versions like the ASE (Canada 1 oz silver maple leaves are similar diameter to the silver dollar). I'd even see if there would be any interest in a modern Seated Liberty Dollar or Gobrecht Dollar which would be 1.5 inch 1 oz coins. The designs could either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
Get rid of the ASE as it is and create a 5 oz silver bullion program. You'd have a 5 oz silver bullion program that includes a 5 oz silver version of the St. Gaudens Cent, Type One Buffalo Nickel, Mercury Dime, Type Two Standing Liberty Quarter, Walking Liberty Half Dollar which would be 65.2mm which is the diameter of 5 oz Canadian and Mexican silver bullion coins to allow for better relief. You can have the designs either rotate with one classic design per year or be concurrent.
It's a very hard to collect series and this would spur interest in it.
Sounds great, but you really are doing nothing more than proposing fixing something that isn't broken. The Mint has so far sold over 1 million Morgan and Peace Dollars at over $100 per ounce of silver. I doubt they feel the need to rejigger everything in the manner you have suggested, as though that would help them sell more than 300,000 proof examples of anything.
They sell tens of millions of one ounce silver bullion coins. There is very limited demand for 5 oz bullion. They tried that.
Everything else you suggested sounds interesting, but has nothing to do with them overproducing Morgan and Peace Dollar proofs by around 100K. Selling tens of thousands of any of them would not have anything to do with the Morgan and Peace Dollars, and nothing you are suggesting would be more popular than the Morgan and Peace Dollars already are.
>
As I see it, the main drawback would be that the 1 oz. Morgan/Peace dollars would look too similar to the classic and recent versions containing less silver. Too much opportunity for confusion and uncertainty by the general public.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
