Grading data from PCGS and NGC through August 30, 2023:
.
Just less than a quarter of the US mint sales of the uncs now graded by PCGD and NGC combined, and about 10% of the proofs sales.
Collector submissions (eg, Base label and First Strike) are gaining share of the graded population, and have a lower rate of 70s than the earlier big boys submissions (eg, FDOI and Advance Releases).
The Peace unc has a lower rate of 70s than the Morgan unc, which also holds to the proofs.
It is a bit earlier to call, but it might be that the rate of 70s for the proofs will be a bit lower than the rate of 70s for the uncs.
That said, there is no indication of any of these issues having 70 rates as low as the 2021-D Morgan.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Absolution said:
Hmm forgot which post it was but someone was asking for imaging for coins on the Morgan and Peace? I got it without realizing I had it for the 2023.
@Goldbully said:
Well, we got our first MS68 Morgan...
And we got our first MS67 Peace as well as an MS68
From "First Strike" label submissions, no less. I might expect those grades showing up on base label submissions, but not expecting them as much on First Strike submissions.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Goldbully said:
Well, we got our first MS68 Morgan...
And we got our first MS67 Peace as well as an MS68
From "First Strike" label submissions, no less. I might expect those grades showing up on base label submissions, but not expecting them as much on First Strike submissions.
Why? Anyone can submit 1st strike. If they sent in sealed boxes...
@Goldbully said:
Well, we got our first MS68 Morgan...
And we got our first MS67 Peace as well as an MS68
From "First Strike" label submissions, no less. I might expect those grades showing up on base label submissions, but not expecting them as much on First Strike submissions.
Why? Anyone can submit 1st strike. If they sent in sealed boxes...
Thank you for for the correction - I agree. Mine was a brainless morning reply.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Goldbully said:
Well, we got our first MS68 Morgan...
And we got our first MS67 Peace as well as an MS68
From "First Strike" label submissions, no less. I might expect those grades showing up on base label submissions, but not expecting them as much on First Strike submissions.
Why? Anyone can submit 1st strike. If they sent in sealed boxes...
Thank you for for the correction - I agree. Mine was a brainless morning reply.
@Absolution said:
Hmm forgot which post it was but someone was asking for imaging for coins on the Morgan and Peace? I got it without realizing I had it for the 2023.
@Absolution said:
Hmm forgot which post it was but someone was asking for imaging for coins on the Morgan and Peace? I got it without realizing I had it for the 2023.
There they are. Thank you for the heads up and the links. The photos are great. It’s just too bad the finish wasn’t more brilliant instead of satin. I miss the cartwheel flash. The hair detail is super.
Does anyone here, honestly still believe that these will sell out?
Morgan available count: 69,762
Peace available count: 89,781
They may be great looking rehashed designs, however, if you're patient, they will become available at below issue price, in the secondary markets later this year or next year. Another money loosing issue from the Mint.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
@OPA said:
Does anyone here, honestly still believe that these will sell out?
Morgan available count: 69,762
Peace available count: 89,781
They may be great looking rehashed designs, however, if you're patient, they will become available at below issue price, in the secondary markets later this year or next year. Another money loosing issue from the Mint.
If they keep selling them for another year or two, they might eventually sell out. That's a little different from the value in the secondary market. Given that ASE proofs with similar mintages are in the $70 range, I don't expect a significant drop in value in the secondary market.
We had one true believer (coiner). He might still be predicting a Christmas sellout and a surge in value. However, we haven't heard from him for a while.
I guess the thrill has worn off although i still see them being offered on TV for $150 or more each in 70. I think I may reduce my subscription for the reverse proofs to 2 but there is time to do that later.
@Glen2022 said:
I guess the thrill has worn off although i still see them being offered on TV for $150 or more each in 70. I think I may reduce my subscription for the reverse proofs to 2 but there is time to do that later.
RPs are still first year of issue so I expect demand to be better than second year uncs.
PCGS and NGC graded populations with rate of 70s, through 9/6/2023:
.
The PCGS graded population for the Morgan and Pease uncs is nearing the tipping point in favor of the total population being being composed of more base and First Strike labels than FDOI and AR labels (predominantly collector submissions). Currently 51% FDOI and Advance Release, and 49% base label and First Strike.
The Peace proof is beginning to appear as a an outlier on the lower side of the rate of 70s, compared to the Morgan proofs and Morgan and Peace uncs. Whether the Peace proof rate of 70s begins to steer valuations of Peace 70s compared to the others remains to be seen.
Base label and First Strike (and NGC equivalent) labels have a lower rate of 70s than the big boy submission labels. As the population of the former rise, while the population of the latter remains static, the overall rate of 70s will decline a bit.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@OPA said:
Does anyone here, honestly still believe that these will sell out?
Morgan available count: 69,762
Peace available count: 89,781
.
9/6/2023
Morgan proof stocklevel: 69,860
Peace proof stocklevel: 90,315
.
The Morgan proof stocklevel is only 1,384 lower than it was on 8/9/2023 @ 1:47pm PDT.
The Peace proof stocklevel is 12,091 more than it was on 8/9/2023 @ 1:47pm PDT.
.
Using the rate of change over the past 13 days, it will take 416 days for the Morgan proof to sell out, and 6,866 days for the peace proof to sell out.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I concur. I have not reduced my RP orders. I will flip quick and hopefully make a little. I will hold exactly zero for future appreciation.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I concur. I have not reduced my RP orders. I will flip quick and hopefully make a little. I will hold exactly zero for future appreciation.
Original subscription for 2 reverse proof sets and later got 1 more from somebody’s reduction. I like the reverse proof finish. Hoping the quality of these is good 🤞
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Today's PSA.....
PCGS First Strike™ designation cutoff date for proofs was September 8, 2023.
edited to add: Sealed Mint boxes only now for the FS™ designation.
Good deal, I don’t open my USPS Boxes unless I know I am going to immediately send them in. So my proofs and uncirculated Morgan’s are safe for future FS designation if the prices rise once they are sold out at the mint. Crossing fingers on that one though.
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 260,624 (85)
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK - 40 COIN 330 -
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 310,848 +2,490
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) - 40 COIN 443 -
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 258,871 (1)
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK - 40 COIN 338 -
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 287,636 +2,049
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) - 40 COIN 438 -
I sent my Peace Unc in the USPS sealed box from the mint on the 26 of Aug and they are already in imaging. Fastest ever processing for me to that point and I marked regular on the outside of the box. Happy about it but very unexpected.
@Goldbully said:
Well, we got our first 66 Proof Morgan, and the dubious honor of a 65 on a Proof Peace $1.
Guess they were sent in sealed boxes, now who would send in a 65?
92.9% of Proof Morgans are 70
85.6% of Proof Peace $1's are 70.
That is a combined population by grade....including the request for 70 minimum grade by the big boys.
The 70 rate will come down, given that AR and FDOI labels still predominate the proof grading populations.
One thing is is apparent, it is harder to get a 70 on the Peace uncs and proof than the Morgan uncs and proofs....that will not likely change.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
I don't think "true collectors" are the target market for these.
@Optex said:
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
Comments
Grading data from PCGS and NGC through August 30, 2023:
.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Hmm forgot which post it was but someone was asking for imaging for coins on the Morgan and Peace? I got it without realizing I had it for the 2023.
https://www.pcgs.com/shared-orders/order-details/23469830
That's because your submission was the Gold Shield™ service group and that includes a TrueView image.
Most submissions on these coins(correct me if I'm wrong) were through the Standard service group which doesn't include TrueView imaging.
Great looking images for sure.
Well, we got our first MS68 Morgan...
And we got our first MS67 Peace as well as an MS68
Those are rare. Pay a premium.
From "First Strike" label submissions, no less. I might expect those grades showing up on base label submissions, but not expecting them as much on First Strike submissions.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Why? Anyone can submit 1st strike. If they sent in sealed boxes...
Thank you for for the correction - I agree. Mine was a brainless morning reply.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
That's a bit harsh.
Calling @robec
There they are. Thank you for the heads up and the links. The photos are great. It’s just too bad the finish wasn’t more brilliant instead of satin. I miss the cartwheel flash. The hair detail is super.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Does anyone here, honestly still believe that these will sell out?
Morgan available count: 69,762
Peace available count: 89,781
They may be great looking rehashed designs, however, if you're patient, they will become available at below issue price, in the secondary markets later this year or next year. Another money loosing issue from the Mint.
If they keep selling them for another year or two, they might eventually sell out. That's a little different from the value in the secondary market. Given that ASE proofs with similar mintages are in the $70 range, I don't expect a significant drop in value in the secondary market.
We had one true believer (coiner). He might still be predicting a Christmas sellout and a surge in value. However, we haven't heard from him for a while.
.
.
.
My apologies to all.
I am NOT repetitively re-posting prior posts. There is a 'glitch'.
[Does anyone here, honestly still believe that these will sell out?]
And if they don't...melt down the excess...I'll wait!
They won't be melted down, they will go into one of the Mint Auctions and be sold with a third-party label like 2025 Release.
I guess the thrill has worn off although i still see them being offered on TV for $150 or more each in 70. I think I may reduce my subscription for the reverse proofs to 2 but there is time to do that later.
My unc Morgan and Peace results just posted. 12 for 12 as MS70. First strike they look to be worth exactly what I paid for them due to low demand.
RPs are still first year of issue so I expect demand to be better than second year uncs.
Well...as of now, I'm in for 7 RP sets...perhaps I'll reduce that to 5???
Maybe...
US Mint Sales figures through 9/3/2023:
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
PCGS and NGC graded populations with rate of 70s, through 9/6/2023:
.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
.
9/6/2023
Morgan proof stocklevel: 69,860
Peace proof stocklevel: 90,315
.
The Morgan proof stocklevel is only 1,384 lower than it was on 8/9/2023 @ 1:47pm PDT.
The Peace proof stocklevel is 12,091 more than it was on 8/9/2023 @ 1:47pm PDT.
.
Using the rate of change over the past 13 days, it will take 416 days for the Morgan proof to sell out, and 6,866 days for the peace proof to sell out.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
My Peace Unc just went from received to grading. 3 of them.
What is the general consensus on the “Reverse Proof “ set coming out? Do you think it will be any more popular than the “ uncirculated” and “proof” sets? What’s your feelings on the subscriptions? Do you see a lot of cancellations as we get closer to the release date? Just trying to look ahead and I respect the opinions of the collecting community here. Thanks.
Me personally, I’m getting as many as I can just to hold on to. Probably won’t grade but two sets though.
I cannot speak for a general consensus, but:
total sales
273,909 - Morgan unc
272,372 - Peace unc
326,078 - Morgan proof
303,107 - Peace proof
.
mintage limit for the RP set is 250,000.
.
First US Mint Morgan or Peace RP produced.
.
I think that the RP will be "more popular" than the uncs or proofs, but how much more, and how "more popular" translates to valuations is indeterminant.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
I concur. I have not reduced my RP orders. I will flip quick and hopefully make a little. I will hold exactly zero for future appreciation.
Thanks, I appreciate your outlook on these coins.
Just got my five of each back. All 70s.
I sent the proofs off last week. Fingers crossed...
Original subscription for 2 reverse proof sets and later got 1 more from somebody’s reduction. I like the reverse proof finish. Hoping the quality of these is good 🤞
Today's PSA.....
PCGS First Strike™ designation cutoff date for proofs was September 8, 2023.
edited to add: Sealed Mint boxes only now for the FS™ designation.
Today's PSA.....
PCGS First Strike™ designation cutoff date for proofs was September 8, 2023.
edited to add: Sealed Mint boxes only now for the FS™ designation.
Good deal, I don’t open my USPS Boxes unless I know I am going to immediately send them in. So my proofs and uncirculated Morgan’s are safe for future FS designation if the prices rise once they are sold out at the mint. Crossing fingers on that one though.
w/e 09/10/2023 Mint sales:
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 260,624 (85)
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK - 40 COIN 330 -
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 310,848 +2,490
2023 MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) - 40 COIN 443 -
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK 258,871 (1)
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR UNC NO MINT MARK - 40 COIN 338 -
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) 287,636 +2,049
2023 PEACE SILVER DOLLAR PROOF (S) - 40 COIN 438 -
I sent my Peace Unc in the USPS sealed box from the mint on the 26 of Aug and they are already in imaging. Fastest ever processing for me to that point and I marked regular on the outside of the box. Happy about it but very unexpected.
Just got my results. Sent in 3 of each Proof. Only 1 loser, so not bad:
Well, we got our first 66 Proof Morgan, and the dubious honor of a 65 on a Proof Peace $1.
Guess they were sent in sealed boxes, now who would send in a 65?
92.9% of Proof Morgans are 70
85.6% of Proof Peace $1's are 70.
Or they sent it in OGP and the capsule opened.
Got my proof results today...............2 out of 10 Peace $1's were 69.....Morgans all 70.
Pretty close to the POPS %'s.
Overall I can't complain.
Here's mine.
Just purchased.
Seems Flawless!
Sic,
Check that. There is an apparent spot under her chin?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.That is a combined population by grade....including the request for 70 minimum grade by the big boys.
The 70 rate will come down, given that AR and FDOI labels still predominate the proof grading populations.
One thing is is apparent, it is harder to get a 70 on the Peace uncs and proof than the Morgan uncs and proofs....that will not likely change.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Mine are on there way back. Peace Uncirculated
MS70
MS70
MS70
I disagree. Especially for the Morgan. Those who are true collectors like to see the classics presented in classic finishes; not the reverse proof.
The Morgan is just fabulous in the traditional proof.
I happen to think the RPs will be a bust.
Sorry to rain on everyone’s parade.
^^^^This is classic finish^^^^^
I don't think "true collectors" are the target market for these.
Yeah. Subscription sales to date suggest your parade is the one that has rain in its forecast. As do sales and mintage figures for every Morgan and Peace dollar offered by the Mint since 2021.
They made between 50-100K too many proofs, regardless of what "true collectors" prefer, which I am sure they will address next year. 250K is probably a sweet spot for these. They won't be on eBay for 4x issue price, but they will easily sell out, and be far from a bust.
I just completed the set!
Purchased the Peace Dollar, as well!
Case + COA included, but not shown.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.