Per today's PCGS pop report for the Peace uncs, PCGS has graded five Director's Strike coins, four of which were Frist Strike label, and one of which was FDOI label. 3 of 4 FS were 70s, 1 of 1 FDOI were 70s. Overall, 4 of 5 70s for PCGS Director's Strike attributions.
No Morgan unc Director's Strike.
.
edit to add: NGC has not updated their pop report in about a week, so the NGC FDI Director's Strike coin on eBay is not yet on the NGC pop report.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
i got my mint proof peace dollar today but the morgan is still in processing. is anyone else having this problem with their morgan as of august 10 th still processing?
@steve76020 said:
i got my mint proof peace dollar today but the morgan is still in processing. is anyone else having this problem with their morgan as of august 10 th still processing?
I'm in Canada, and both my subscriptions for the Morgan/Peace proofs are still processing!
@SPalladino said:
Per today's PCGS pop report for the Peace uncs, PCGS has graded five Director's Strike coins, four of which were Frist Strike label, and one of which was FDOI label. 3 of 4 FS were 70s, 1 of 1 FDOI were 70s. Overall, 4 of 5 70s for PCGS Director's Strike attributions.
No Morgan unc Director's Strike.
.
edit to add: NGC has not updated their pop report in about a week, so the NGC FDI Director's Strike coin on eBay is not yet on the NGC pop report
These were all handouts for the big boys. I believe there will be many more and all 70’s of course.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
At the ANA one of the booths had hired a bunch (>5) of young men (22 ish) to go stand in the US Mint line to buy 25 each Morgan and Peace dollar proofs. This was yesterday. Not sure if they did it more than one day, but that is one way to gather a bunch of new releases.
Or you can get a bunch (no limit) at the mint.
Morgan Silver Dollar Proof Coin
SAN FRANCISCO (S)
Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars
Current Product
Subscribe And Get Free Shipping
$80.00
Quantity
1
Add to Bag
Item Number: 23XF
Mintage Limit: 400,000
Product Limit: 400,000
Household Order Limit: None
I have no idea how they might actually do it, but a possible example: an ABPP order of 850 coins, plus six of the buyer's employees/family members, etc by 25 each in the OGP, The buyer now owns 150 boxes/COA, and can cover up to 150 non-70s of the total 1000 (850+150) coins .....15%...which likely covers the non-70 rate by the TPG. Just conjecture.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@HATTRICK said
These were all handouts for the big boys. I believe there will be many more and all 70’s of course.
I agree, but from a different angle - it’s not a plot by the mint, it’s an outcome of big dealers and big grading services trying to make each others life easier. When anyone is submitting hundreds of coins annually to a grading service they will tend to get the grades they need. If a small customer sends in their 5 or 10 coins they will get whatever the person grading decides. If Pinehurst, MCM, APMEX, etc submits a few thousand coins the scales of justice might tilt a bit more in their direction.
It’s not a criticism, just a fact. If a human is involved then grading is subjective. The more coins big dealers submit, the more 70’s miraculously appear. All the pressure from collectors to hold the perfect coin will result in more perfect coins appearing.
@Orlena
Actually my main comment was about the Director Strike coins . As we all know the mint never said anything about the limited directors strike coins. Therefore no one can complain about false advertisement when they gave most of them to the big buyers. No matter what you want to believe Money Talks .
Been there done that .
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@HATTRICK said: @Orlena
Actually my main comment was about the Director Strike coins . As we all know the mint never said anything about the limited directors strike coins. Therefore no one can complain about false advertisement when they gave most of them to the big buyers. No matter what you want to believe Money Talks .
Been there done that .
You can't say the mint never said anything. The card included with the coin is communication from the mint.
glad i didn't buy any of these, especially since my bank is paying over 5 percent interest on cd's now, don't need to be holding anything that has a negative return
I did not get mine yet (Proof), but I have seen some videos on YouTube and those look very gorgeous....
I'm really surprised why they are not sold out yet!
@coinpalice said:
glad i didn't buy any of these, especially since my bank is paying over 5 percent interest on cd's now, don't need to be holding anything that has a negative return
Heck, most of my life has been a negative return from a financial standpoint. Lol! I bought a coin this week for about 50% over what PCGS values it at, because I couldn't find another one and wanted it.
My solitary Morgan proof shipped today via First Class Mail.
I just got a notifications from UPS that my 10 Morgan Proof and 10 Peace Proof have been just shipped in 2 shipments to Canada!
I think I will get them on Monday evening based on my previous experience with UPS.
Re these coins...I'd like to just take a step back and consider how likely the existence of coins seemed a few years ago...
Can't really say that I would have expected the Mint to essentially restart production of these two classic dollar series...and with proof finishes, no less.
Now if they had modified the reverse design...like with the ASEs vs. the original Walker design...maybe I could have imagined that...but with completely intact designs, no way.
As a collector, I think this is really great...even if future profits may or may not be spectacular.
Between 8/9 @10:47pm PDT and 8/10 @10:02pm PDT...essentially the second day of the proof sales...about 27.7K Morgan proofs, and about 23.2K Peace proofs were sold.
Currently, 39649 Morgan proofs and 52043 Peace proofs remain available for purchase.
Add to bag will certainly remain on both offering for at least another day, and possibly longer.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Saw both proof dollars in hand at the ANA show on August 9th. They are absolutely beautiful in hand.
I have no doubt the market will suck all 400,000 of each up within a month.
These will be very popular.
@coiner said:
Saw both proof dollars in hand at the ANA show on August 9th. They are absolutely beautiful in hand.
I have no doubt the market will suck all 400,000 of each up within a month.
These will be very popular.
Maybe 350,000 is the limit of their popularity.
Mint releases that don't immediately sell out do not have good track records. Even most of the ones that do immediately sell out have poor track records.
I think @jmlanzaf is essentially correct on previous releases.
However this is a new species of Mint product, not comparable in normal tribute of persons or events. Reasonably affordable commemoratives of an extremely popular and collected series.
If these do not sell out in the near future I have no doubt because of the recent marketing moves they will reconsider next years issue or limit them severely.
That should maintain values and preserve interest going forward. At least that is what I would do. As many have mentioned the Mint does not need the numismatics, they will not go out of business.
But if they want to maintain interest and that means value in numismatics then they must be wary of a glut.
@RichR said:
[If these are still available after almost a month since issue, I believe the proofs will be as bad if not worse.]
"Bad" and "worse" are relative terms in this hobby...how many months/years were the Pan Pac coins available?
That's a ridiculous comparison. Pan Pac coins were poorly marketed and cost a significant portion of your monthly or yearly salary. These were broadly marketed and cost less than a day's wages for even the lowest paid worker.
These are nice looking coins but they aren't going to leap in popularity later. Mint products generally have their peak shortly after release 99% of the time.
@fathom said:
I think @jmlanzaf is essentially correct on previous releases.
However this is a new species of Mint product, not comparable in normal tribute of persons or events. Reasonably affordable commemoratives of an extremely popular and collected series.
If these do not sell out in the near future I have no doubt because of the recent marketing moves they will reconsider next years issue or limit them severely.
That should maintain values and preserve interest going forward. At least that is what I would do. As many have mentioned the Mint does not need the numismatics, they will not go out of business.
But if they want to maintain interest and that means value in numismatics then they must be wary of a glut.
Don't get me wrong. There's not a lot of downside risk given the price of proof ASEs. But they are HIGHLY unlikely to leap in price or popularity down the line.
My broader point was that yesterday's "losers" are sometimes tomorrow's "winners"...and there are plenty of more recent examples of that phenomena that can be cited.
Snap judgements are not always on target...in fact, they're usually way off target.
Don’t forget these were released mid-August. Telemarketers will undoubtedly continue to promote these coins (they do look stunning even on a small screen 😊) throughout the fall and into the holidays. I certainly wouldn’t “count them out” just yet…
My broader point was that yesterday's "losers" are sometimes tomorrow's "winners"...and there are plenty of more recent examples of that phenomena that can be cited.
Snap judgements are not always on target...in fact, they're usually way off target.
This.
Who would have thought back then that Morgan's would be worth more than a dollar? And now some years are worth tens of thousands. The first year of a new batch of Morgan's in 10, 20, 50 years from now could be worth a lot. A lot of people place extra value on firsts...
My broader point was that yesterday's "losers" are sometimes tomorrow's "winners"...and there are plenty of more recent examples of that phenomena that can be cited.
Snap judgements are not always on target...in fact, they're usually way off target.
Not many with Mint products. The 95W might be it and that was also something of a price point issue.
But I appreciate you admitting that your snap judgment is likely wrong.
Both PCGS and NGC have updated their pop reports. It is early on for the proofs, but the early PCGS data suggests that we _might _see a lower rate of 70s for the proofs than for the uncs. Worth following over the next few weeks.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Agree with @D808LF laser frost looks cheesy wish they would strike them like the 50 and early sixty proofs. Some cameo some deep cam and others just shiny. They all don’t need to be PF 70 deep cam right off the press. More interesting that way There I said it
Martin
@Martin said:
Agree with @D808LF laser frost looks cheesy wish they would strike them like the 50 and early sixty proofs. Some cameo some deep cam and others just shiny. They all don’t need to be PF 70 deep cam right off the press. More interesting that way There I said it
Martin
Respectfully, with folks currently returning coins to the mint that are not 70s, what's going to happen if they only get a "shiny" one? That said, I do wish that they produced uncs with better luster than what they do now.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Comments
We got proof pops already folks.
2023 Morgan $1 Proof
86.7% PR70DCAM for the big boys
How can there be First Strike issues already?
2023 Peace $1 Proof
A cool 100% PR70DCAM for the big guys.
Why is there no Base pops for the Peace $1?
Per today's PCGS pop report for the Peace uncs, PCGS has graded five Director's Strike coins, four of which were Frist Strike label, and one of which was FDOI label. 3 of 4 FS were 70s, 1 of 1 FDOI were 70s. Overall, 4 of 5 70s for PCGS Director's Strike attributions.
No Morgan unc Director's Strike.
.
edit to add: NGC has not updated their pop report in about a week, so the NGC FDI Director's Strike coin on eBay is not yet on the NGC pop report.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
i got my mint proof peace dollar today but the morgan is still in processing. is anyone else having this problem with their morgan as of august 10 th still processing?
I'm in Canada, and both my subscriptions for the Morgan/Peace proofs are still processing!
pretty darn nice looks flawless
wow this is a beauty.......Thanks Steve for sharing this photo......
would that be a ultra cameo??
population report summary as of 8/10/2023
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
First strike BS. FDOI. BS
Advance Release BS. Show labels BS
Same coin different label.
Hey, thanks for putting together this very beneficial Pops spreadsheet.
These were all handouts for the big boys. I believe there will be many more and all 70’s of course.
Haven't we already determined that the 'big guys' do NOT receive OGP or COA's in their Mint packages?
So how do you think any of the bulk guys are being handed these special PCGS encapsulated COA's?
Nice coins, but the bigger the coin, the more I am reminded that I do not like the laser frosting process.
At the ANA one of the booths had hired a bunch (>5) of young men (22 ish) to go stand in the US Mint line to buy 25 each Morgan and Peace dollar proofs. This was yesterday. Not sure if they did it more than one day, but that is one way to gather a bunch of new releases.
Or you can get a bunch (no limit) at the mint.
Morgan Silver Dollar Proof Coin
SAN FRANCISCO (S)
Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars
Current Product
Subscribe And Get Free Shipping
$80.00
Quantity
1
Add to Bag
Item Number: 23XF
Mintage Limit: 400,000
Product Limit: 400,000
Household Order Limit: None
Same with the Peace.
Item Number: 23XL
Mintage Limit: 400,000
Product Limit: 400,000
Household Order Limit: None
100% of them are ultra cameo
I don't think we've determined that. They can buy 40 coin trays but they can also buy the regular issue, I believe.
I have no idea how they might actually do it, but a possible example: an ABPP order of 850 coins, plus six of the buyer's employees/family members, etc by 25 each in the OGP, The buyer now owns 150 boxes/COA, and can cover up to 150 non-70s of the total 1000 (850+150) coins .....15%...which likely covers the non-70 rate by the TPG. Just conjecture.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@HATTRICK said
These were all handouts for the big boys. I believe there will be many more and all 70’s of course.
I agree, but from a different angle - it’s not a plot by the mint, it’s an outcome of big dealers and big grading services trying to make each others life easier. When anyone is submitting hundreds of coins annually to a grading service they will tend to get the grades they need. If a small customer sends in their 5 or 10 coins they will get whatever the person grading decides. If Pinehurst, MCM, APMEX, etc submits a few thousand coins the scales of justice might tilt a bit more in their direction.
It’s not a criticism, just a fact. If a human is involved then grading is subjective. The more coins big dealers submit, the more 70’s miraculously appear. All the pressure from collectors to hold the perfect coin will result in more perfect coins appearing.
@Orlena
Actually my main comment was about the Director Strike coins . As we all know the mint never said anything about the limited directors strike coins. Therefore no one can complain about false advertisement when they gave most of them to the big buyers. No matter what you want to believe Money Talks .
Been there done that .
You can't say the mint never said anything. The card included with the coin is communication from the mint.
glad i didn't buy any of these, especially since my bank is paying over 5 percent interest on cd's now, don't need to be holding anything that has a negative return
I did not get mine yet (Proof), but I have seen some videos on YouTube and those look very gorgeous....
I'm really surprised why they are not sold out yet!
Heck, most of my life has been a negative return from a financial standpoint. Lol! I bought a coin this week for about 50% over what PCGS values it at, because I couldn't find another one and wanted it.
My solitary Morgan proof shipped today via First Class Mail.
My Peace shipped today 8/10, No word on the Morgans.
I just got a notifications from UPS that my 10 Morgan Proof and 10 Peace Proof have been just shipped in 2 shipments to Canada!
I think I will get them on Monday evening based on my previous experience with UPS.
Re these coins...I'd like to just take a step back and consider how likely the existence of coins seemed a few years ago...
Can't really say that I would have expected the Mint to essentially restart production of these two classic dollar series...and with proof finishes, no less.
Now if they had modified the reverse design...like with the ASEs vs. the original Walker design...maybe I could have imagined that...but with completely intact designs, no way.
As a collector, I think this is really great...even if future profits may or may not be spectacular.
The Mint should make new dollar coins using more classical coins of the past.
Between 8/9 @10:47pm PDT and 8/10 @10:02pm PDT...essentially the second day of the proof sales...about 27.7K Morgan proofs, and about 23.2K Peace proofs were sold.
Currently, 39649 Morgan proofs and 52043 Peace proofs remain available for purchase.
Add to bag will certainly remain on both offering for at least another day, and possibly longer.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Saw both proof dollars in hand at the ANA show on August 9th. They are absolutely beautiful in hand.
I have no doubt the market will suck all 400,000 of each up within a month.
These will be very popular.
Maybe 350,000 is the limit of their popularity.
Mint releases that don't immediately sell out do not have good track records. Even most of the ones that do immediately sell out have poor track records.
Both Morgan and Peace $1 Uncs. open for business.
edited to add: If these are still available after almost a month since issue, I believe the proofs will be as bad if not worse.
[If these are still available after almost a month since issue, I believe the proofs will be as bad if not worse.]
"Bad" and "worse" are relative terms in this hobby...how many months/years were the Pan Pac coins available?
I think @jmlanzaf is essentially correct on previous releases.
However this is a new species of Mint product, not comparable in normal tribute of persons or events. Reasonably affordable commemoratives of an extremely popular and collected series.
If these do not sell out in the near future I have no doubt because of the recent marketing moves they will reconsider next years issue or limit them severely.
That should maintain values and preserve interest going forward. At least that is what I would do. As many have mentioned the Mint does not need the numismatics, they will not go out of business.
But if they want to maintain interest and that means value in numismatics then they must be wary of a glut.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Pan Pac coins were poorly marketed and cost a significant portion of your monthly or yearly salary. These were broadly marketed and cost less than a day's wages for even the lowest paid worker.
These are nice looking coins but they aren't going to leap in popularity later. Mint products generally have their peak shortly after release 99% of the time.
Don't get me wrong. There's not a lot of downside risk given the price of proof ASEs. But they are HIGHLY unlikely to leap in price or popularity down the line.
[That's a ridiculous comparison.]
My broader point was that yesterday's "losers" are sometimes tomorrow's "winners"...and there are plenty of more recent examples of that phenomena that can be cited.
Snap judgements are not always on target...in fact, they're usually way off target.
Don’t forget these were released mid-August. Telemarketers will undoubtedly continue to promote these coins (they do look stunning even on a small screen 😊) throughout the fall and into the holidays. I certainly wouldn’t “count them out” just yet…
This.
Who would have thought back then that Morgan's would be worth more than a dollar? And now some years are worth tens of thousands. The first year of a new batch of Morgan's in 10, 20, 50 years from now could be worth a lot. A lot of people place extra value on firsts...
Only time will tell!
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Not many with Mint products. The 95W might be it and that was also something of a price point issue.
But I appreciate you admitting that your snap judgment is likely wrong.
I don't recall ever getting 12 out of 12 70's on modern Mint issues.
I thought i would have at least one 69.....no complaints here.
😊
Pops as of August 11, 2023
Now maybe if he has time, @SPalladino can update his spreadsheet.
Both PCGS and NGC have updated their pop reports. It is early on for the proofs, but the early PCGS data suggests that we _might _see a lower rate of 70s for the proofs than for the uncs. Worth following over the next few weeks.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
I don't like the sandblast-cameo treatment. I haven't liked it since the Mint began this nonsense.
fka renman95, Sep 2005, 7,000 posts
[But I appreciate you admitting that your snap judgment is likely wrong.]
Unless you're ready to admit the same re your statements...I'm not admitting anything of the sort.
But I respect everyone's opinion...be they right or wrong.
I jumped the shark and bought an example from a fellow forumite.
How else could they maintain thick frost for $80 per coin?
And let's be clear.... no sharks have been jumped.😉
Agree with @D808LF laser frost looks cheesy wish they would strike them like the 50 and early sixty proofs. Some cameo some deep cam and others just shiny. They all don’t need to be PF 70 deep cam right off the press. More interesting that way
There I said it
Martin
Respectfully, with folks currently returning coins to the mint that are not 70s, what's going to happen if they only get a "shiny" one? That said, I do wish that they produced uncs with better luster than what they do now.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor