@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
NOT questioning your account, but I am curious.
I thought that the Mint did not accept partial returns, or issue partial refunds. Are you saying that they allowed you to return 8 coins, out of an order of 10 coins?
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
8
NOT questioning your account, but I am curious.
I thought that the Mint did not accept partial returns, or issue partial refunds. Are you saying that they allowed you to return 8 coins, out of an order of 10 coins?
He did not do a partial return, he returned 8 complete Morgan/Peace Dollar products.
What the Mint means by a partial return is returning the Half Dollar out of a Proof Set. You would need to return the entire proof set.
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
NOT questioning your account, but I am curious.
I thought that the Mint did not accept partial returns, or issue partial refunds. Are you saying that they allowed you to return 8 coins, out of an order of 10 coins?
You can't return partial sets. You have to return a complete set, such as a proof set. You can't break up a set. You can return single coins like these.
@coiner said:
It is not debris—it is a scratch in the surface of the coin
This is the reason why there’s no need to prescreen the coins. Whoever thinks the big boys prescreen their groups of 100s of these is a bit naive.
I know one of the big boys. He does prescreen. I'm sure some of them don't. They don't need to because it only costs them a couple bucks to have PCGS look at them. If you submit 70 only, you pay a few bucks evaluation fee on the 69s that don't slab.
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the comment about abuse of returns. I think the poor quality of the coins is an abuse of the customers.
If the mint is selling flawed and damaged products at a steep premium they should absolutely accept returns for free. A bullion coin being sold for almost four times it’s actual value should absolutely come in the highest quality possible and should not be damaged, scratched, or impaired on arrival.
They do not have to be flawless but any flaws should be minor and not visible to the naked eye and blatantly obvious.
I think the same logic applies to MS70 graded coins. They should be flawless if in an MS70 holder. Anything less is unacceptable and is not MS70.
@SilverPlatinum said:
Question: Is the 10% held for the release date is for sure?
.
The 10% held for day of release is the minimum, so that there will be at least 10% of the mintage available. That 10% held back is not accessible by subscription. To that minimum of 10% of the mintage, all of the mintage originally available for subscription, but not subscribed (eg, currently 61,462 Morgan proofs and 63,916 Peace proofs) are rolled into the day of release sales. If a product is fully subscribed, there will still be 10% of the mintage available for sale on release day. But if a product is not fully subscribed (like these proofs), then there will be 10% of the total mintage plus whatever is unsubscribed.
.
Also not accessible by subscription, but not made available on day of release sales:
-ABPP purchases
-Coins held back for on-site branch mint sales, and in this case, ANA sales. (I am unaware whether the mint holds back coins for exchanges/returns.)
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee
IMHO, I think the people buying them are the ones to decide whether or not to make the purchase. The mint shouldn’t allow speculators to grab up all of the coins and then return the ones they don’t like. Maybe sign up for one or two and see if the quality is what you expect rather that maxing out on what you are allowed to purchase thinking you can flip a bunch of what you hope are 70’s. If the mint is selling a bunch of flawed coins then buyers won’t buy and the mint will lose customers making the mint rethink there quality control.
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Well when the defects are significant enough you can see them with your own eyes, yes they should be willing to take them back. They aren't mind readers though... There is no way to tell who is buying only for 70s and who is buying because they like them and aren't after 70s, but still might be disappointed by the quality. They aren't mind readers.
However if someone buys a lot of stock and regularly returns most or a large percentage of their orders, the it could be conceivable that they could implement a restriction on that account. Ebay does it, amazon does it...
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Correct. You should see all the U.K. coins being returned to the Royal Mint due to QC issues. People on the U.K. coin boards are constantly complaining about the overt QC issues and are returning their coins for replacement or refund. People pay good money for the coins and deserve to be satisfied.
@Goldbully I would explain all the 70s as bulk submissions with minimum grade of 70. Incomplete data.
I am certainly not as intelligent and well versed as many others here, but when you allow a minimum of 70 all percentages are warped when the coins that did not make the grade are not counted.
How many average joe pcgs members sent their coins in for grading at any grade, and have their results already? I believe the current population numbers are entirely unreliable based on bulk submission grades.
I am genuinely curious how many coins were rejected as MS70. I have only seen the peace dollars I ordered from the mint in hand and they were embarrassingly atrocious. They had scratches, small struck through on cheek or reverse, rims badly scratched, one even had a deep slice on the rim like it was cut or hit by a razor blade.
Even when submissions allow for a minimum of 69, I do not trust the percentage as a reflection of overall quality. For a true assessment on quality, all submissions would need to just be graded with no minimum allowed. Then we would see the true quality in the number of UNC coins graded “details” for damage, or graded less than 70, (64+)
If you want decent examples (maybe but not necessarily "perfect" 70s) then buy them from the mint.
That's my own approach, anyway.
And FWIW, i am certain that at least some of these issues that some people have noted are scratches on the capsules or lint inside. It's been proven repeatedly over the years that some people can't distinguish between capsule issues and coin issues.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
@Aspie_Rocco said: @Goldbully I would explain all the 70s as bulk submissions with minimum grade of 70. Incomplete data.
I am certainly not as intelligent and well versed as many others here, but when you allow a minimum of 70 all percentages are warped when the coins that did not make the grade are not counted.
How many average joe pcgs members sent their coins in for grading at any grade, and have their results already? I believe the current population numbers are entirely unreliable based on bulk submission grades.
I am genuinely curious how many coins were rejected as MS70. I have only seen the peace dollars I ordered from the mint in hand and they were embarrassingly atrocious. They had scratches, small struck through on cheek or reverse, rims badly scratched, one even had a deep slice on the rim like it was cut or hit by a razor blade.
Even when submissions allow for a minimum of 69, I do not trust the percentage as a reflection of overall quality. For a true assessment on quality, all submissions would need to just be graded with no minimum allowed. Then we would see the true quality in the number of UNC coins graded “details” for damage, or graded less than 70, (64+)
I agree, and thanks for your valid response.
It appears the bulk program has pros and cons I believe.
Pro: It allows collectors to buy MS70 slabbed coins for cheap.
Con: It certainly skews the population report and makes it less accurate on real submissions by regular collectors.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
Thank you @fathom, I see your point. What do most of the bulk guys do with their returns?
Sorry...but I'm laughing that "69" coins are now considered "damaged" and "inferior"...that's just BS!
I'm also imagining what would happen if the Mint's return policies took on the same type of absolutist language that the TPGs typically throw at normal collectors...something along the lines of "Too bad, so sad" or "Lump it or leave it!"
No mint on this Earth, with no level of realistic quality control, can guarantee that every coin produced will be a 70.
@coiner said:
It is not debris—it is a scratch in the surface of the coin
It’s disheartening that this would be in a 70 slab.
Agreed. I would expect better from our hosts... I can't imagine how that could pass as a 70...
It happens way too often. The PCGS MS70 Morgan I received has scuff marks around three of the stars on the obverse. The raw coin I got from the mint looks way better and flawless to the naked eye. I have got way too many coins with spots, dings and scratches in 70 slabs over the years. That is why I prefer raw coins as opposed to damaged coins in a slab
Did you return it? Or did you submit it? If the big submitters get enough returns, then maybe they will improve their standards.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the comment about abuse of returns. I think the poor quality of the coins is an abuse of the customers.
If the mint is selling flawed and damaged products at a steep premium they should absolutely accept returns for free. A bullion coin being sold for almost four times it’s actual value should absolutely come in the highest quality possible and should not be damaged, scratched, or impaired on arrival.
They do not have to be flawless but any flaws should be minor and not visible to the naked eye and blatantly obvious.
I think the same logic applies to MS70 graded coins. They should be flawless if in an MS70 holder. Anything less is unacceptable and is not MS70.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
Thank you @fathom, I see your point. What do most of the bulk guys do with their returns?
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Microscopic defects? Yes. I would not return cars or furniture that graded 69.
@JBK said:
This discussion/argument comes up periodically.
If you want MS70/PR70 then buy them slabbed.
If you want decent examples (maybe but not necessarily "perfect" 70s) then buy them from the mint.
That's my own approach, anyway.
And FWIW, i am certain that at least some of these issues that some people have noted are scratches on the capsules or lint inside. It's been proven repeatedly over the years that some people can't distinguish between capsule issues and coin issues.
A defect on the slab is as obvious as on the coin. If they damage the slab during holdering they should re slab it and not leave their customers to worry about coin or slab . Also when you pay for a 70 you should get a flawless coin in a flawless slab. Quality control on slabbed modern coins is and has been an issue for far too long. This was the final straw for me. I will stay with raw coins from the mint for now on. My Morgan and Peace from the Mint are flawless.
I have been lucky and have not received a bad coin from the mint in many years but would return if I did.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Microscopic defects? Yes. I would not return cars or furniture that graded 69.
They are not microscopic. See example above. I would not accept a car or furniture with PMD without an appropriate discount. At time of delivery, products should be free from defects unless disclosed or advertised not to be.
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Microscopic defects? Yes. I would not return cars or furniture that graded 69.
They are not microscopic. See example above. I would not accept a car or furniture with PMD without an appropriate discount. At time of delivery, products should be free from defects unless disclosed or advertised not to be.
Many/misr of them are microscopic. Photos through a microscope make everything look large. It is very rare for a modern commem to grade as low as 68. If you want the standard to be 70, then prepare for the end of the commems. You simply cannot mint 70s only without the costs increasing astronomically. [and that includes cars and furniture which is why all industrial processes have tolerances.]
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
@JWP said:
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
Funny I can't even reach the website... Anyone else having trouble?
@JWP said:
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
Funny I can't even reach the website... Anyone else having trouble?
It's working fine for me from my PC. However nothing is showing in my order history yet about the proof.
@JBK said:
This discussion/argument comes up periodically.
If you want MS70/PR70 then buy them slabbed.
If you want decent examples (maybe but not necessarily "perfect" 70s) then buy them from the mint.
That's my own approach, anyway.
And FWIW, i am certain that at least some of these issues that some people have noted are scratches on the capsules or lint inside. It's been proven repeatedly over the years that some people can't distinguish between capsule issues and coin issues.
A defect on the slab is as obvious as on the coin. If they damage the slab during holdering they should re slab it and not leave their customers to worry about coin or slab . Also when you pay for a 70 you should get a flawless coin in a flawless slab. Quality control on slabbed modern coins is and has been an issue for far too long. This was the final straw for me. I will stay with raw coins from the mint for now on. My Morgan and Peace from the Mint are flawless.
I have been lucky and have not received a bad coin from the mint in many years but would return if I did.
I think two issues are being conflated here.
TPG slab quality is a separate issue from mint's coin quality.
I agree that slabs should be free of scratches (although I an amazed at how poorly some people treat their slabs).
Mint capsules are frequently scratched or have lint, and some people can't tell the difference between that and coin damage.
@JWP said:
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
Funny I can't even reach the website... Anyone else having trouble?
It's working fine for me from my PC. However nothing is showing in my order history yet about the proof.
Ah tried a different browser on my phone and it worked. Weird.
@JWP said:
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
Funny I can't even reach the website... Anyone else having trouble?
It's working fine for me from my PC. However nothing is showing in my order history yet about the proof.
Ah tried a different browser on my phone and it worked. Weird.
It was Amazon AWS CloudFront security platform casing your error due maybe to cookies or the application firewall.... I know it's complicated.....I work for them and I know how Amazon like to complicate things.
I agree that slabs should be free of scratches (although I an amazed at how poorly some people treat their slabs).
Probably the same people that touch the media side of their DVD's and CD's.
And in the "olden days", getting their greasy fingerprints all over their records. When I saw that, it was like watching (and hearing) someone scratch their nails on a blackboard. (I know, what's a blackboard?)
@SilverPlatinum said:
Why my subscription now showing "TBD" for the shipping date for the Morgan and Peace Proofs!
Did the mint change their mind about the shipping date?
They roll over to the next year subscription at some point after they have fulfilled this year's.
and be sure to check mark "inactive" unless you want to remain enrolled for the next one.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
ive been enrolled for nearly a year waiting for them all got the unc peace and morgan the proof peace is processing no word on morgan and the reverse proof set see ya in nov.14th or so
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
Thank you @fathom, I see your point. What do most of the bulk guys do with their returns?
Wholesale them out, since they don't have the OGP necessary to sell them retail. If they were interested in selling them as 69s, that would be their minimum grade.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
Thank you @fathom, I see your point. What do most of the bulk guys do with their returns?
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Faulty analogy. Folks don't purchase 25 (or even 10) new cars, or new recliner chairs, and then keep only the one or two that appear flawless to them.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Keep in mind that the pop reports for these modern coins do not reflect the quality of the entire mintage....only the quality of the ones submitted. And of the ones that are submitted, there are biases:
-early minimum grade 70 submissions by the big boys skew grades towards 70 early on, only to be eventually be diluted by collector submissions
-collector submissions (after First Strike submission) tend to be pre-screened, where the dregs are not typically submitted, which creates a floor that is higher than the overall mintage quality.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
@Gemstrike said:
My box of 10 had 2 that are flawless, 8 have scrapes, scrathces, abrasions. Returned the 8, kept 2. Mint was quick refunding balance to my surprise.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Faulty analogy. Folks don't purchase 25 (or even 10) new cars, or new recliner chairs, and then keep only the one or two that appear flawless to them.
The analogy is apt. If they care (let's face it, some people don't care if their car or coin is free of defects), for the one car or coffee table they do buy, if it arrived damage, they would reject it, demand a discount, or have it fixed. Obviously fixing coins isn't an option nor is the mint going to give a discount, so that leaves the only option to return it.
Updated "70 rate" report current to today.
Besides summary # graded, # 70, and % 70 column, I've added FDOI & Advanced Releases %70 and the percentage of the total graded that are FDOI/AR versus base label & First Strike %70 and the percentage of the total graded that are base label & First Strike %70.
.
Key points:
NGC is currently posting a higher relative percentage of big boy submissions vs collector submissions than is PCGS. Their overall % 70 is skewed higher by the greater percentage of big boy submissions.
Either way, the collector submissions are likely revealing a more true rate of 70s than the big boy submissions.
The Peace uncs have a 70 rate amongst collector submissions that is about 3% lower than the Morgan uncs.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Comments
NOT questioning your account, but I am curious.
I thought that the Mint did not accept partial returns, or issue partial refunds. Are you saying that they allowed you to return 8 coins, out of an order of 10 coins?
He did not do a partial return, he returned 8 complete Morgan/Peace Dollar products.
What the Mint means by a partial return is returning the Half Dollar out of a Proof Set. You would need to return the entire proof set.
You can't return partial sets. You have to return a complete set, such as a proof set. You can't break up a set. You can return single coins like these.
@djm and @Gemstrike
Thanks for the 'clarification/information'. I appreciate it.
Ugh.....good ol' QC...I wonder how many were being processed, and after thousands you can't blink or risk missing something grading.
I know one of the big boys. He does prescreen. I'm sure some of them don't. They don't need to because it only costs them a couple bucks to have PCGS look at them. If you submit 70 only, you pay a few bucks evaluation fee on the 69s that don't slab.
Personally, I don't think the Mint should tolerate this abuse of returns. They do not promise 70s nor should buyers expect 70 only coins. They should Institute a restocking fee.
The overall quality of the Peace dollars I have seen is awful. Some look like they were spilled in a parking lot then picked up and packaged.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the comment about abuse of returns. I think the poor quality of the coins is an abuse of the customers.
If the mint is selling flawed and damaged products at a steep premium they should absolutely accept returns for free. A bullion coin being sold for almost four times it’s actual value should absolutely come in the highest quality possible and should not be damaged, scratched, or impaired on arrival.
They do not have to be flawless but any flaws should be minor and not visible to the naked eye and blatantly obvious.
I think the same logic applies to MS70 graded coins. They should be flawless if in an MS70 holder. Anything less is unacceptable and is not MS70.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Thank you for explaining that.......
Pops as of today...
95.9% MS70
94.2% MS70
IMHO, I think the people buying them are the ones to decide whether or not to make the purchase. The mint shouldn’t allow speculators to grab up all of the coins and then return the ones they don’t like. Maybe sign up for one or two and see if the quality is what you expect rather that maxing out on what you are allowed to purchase thinking you can flip a bunch of what you hope are 70’s. If the mint is selling a bunch of flawed coins then buyers won’t buy and the mint will lose customers making the mint rethink there quality control.
Why? Do you buy brand new cars and accept scratches in the paint? New furniture with dents that you pay regular price for?
Well when the defects are significant enough you can see them with your own eyes, yes they should be willing to take them back. They aren't mind readers though... There is no way to tell who is buying only for 70s and who is buying because they like them and aren't after 70s, but still might be disappointed by the quality. They aren't mind readers.
However if someone buys a lot of stock and regularly returns most or a large percentage of their orders, the it could be conceivable that they could implement a restriction on that account. Ebay does it, amazon does it...
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Then how do you explain why well over 93% of the Peace $1's are MS70's?
That seems like very good quality control from the Mint to me.
Correct. You should see all the U.K. coins being returned to the Royal Mint due to QC issues. People on the U.K. coin boards are constantly complaining about the overt QC issues and are returning their coins for replacement or refund. People pay good money for the coins and deserve to be satisfied.
@Goldbully I would explain all the 70s as bulk submissions with minimum grade of 70. Incomplete data.
I am certainly not as intelligent and well versed as many others here, but when you allow a minimum of 70 all percentages are warped when the coins that did not make the grade are not counted.
How many average joe pcgs members sent their coins in for grading at any grade, and have their results already? I believe the current population numbers are entirely unreliable based on bulk submission grades.
I am genuinely curious how many coins were rejected as MS70. I have only seen the peace dollars I ordered from the mint in hand and they were embarrassingly atrocious. They had scratches, small struck through on cheek or reverse, rims badly scratched, one even had a deep slice on the rim like it was cut or hit by a razor blade.
Even when submissions allow for a minimum of 69, I do not trust the percentage as a reflection of overall quality. For a true assessment on quality, all submissions would need to just be graded with no minimum allowed. Then we would see the true quality in the number of UNC coins graded “details” for damage, or graded less than 70, (64+)
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
This discussion/argument comes up periodically.
If you want MS70/PR70 then buy them slabbed.
If you want decent examples (maybe but not necessarily "perfect" 70s) then buy them from the mint.
That's my own approach, anyway.
And FWIW, i am certain that at least some of these issues that some people have noted are scratches on the capsules or lint inside. It's been proven repeatedly over the years that some people can't distinguish between capsule issues and coin issues.
There is 1 for every 1375 produced. Maybe you’ll find one in the next 875 you look through. 🍀
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Because the large submitters request minimum 70 grades, the rest are returned ungraded. Skews the results.
I hope they do some Director's Strike for the Proofs and Rev Proofs!
I agree, and thanks for your valid response.
It appears the bulk program has pros and cons I believe.
Pro: It allows collectors to buy MS70 slabbed coins for cheap.
Con: It certainly skews the population report and makes it less accurate on real submissions by regular collectors.
Thank you @fathom, I see your point. What do most of the bulk guys do with their returns?
Sorry...but I'm laughing that "69" coins are now considered "damaged" and "inferior"...that's just BS!
I'm also imagining what would happen if the Mint's return policies took on the same type of absolutist language that the TPGs typically throw at normal collectors...something along the lines of "Too bad, so sad" or "Lump it or leave it!"
No mint on this Earth, with no level of realistic quality control, can guarantee that every coin produced will be a 70.
69 is fine. Expecting 70s is not.
I had 15 of each. They were ALL 69 or better
Sell them OGP
Microscopic defects? Yes. I would not return cars or furniture that graded 69.
Please let us know when you get your shipping notification email for the "Proof".
A defect on the slab is as obvious as on the coin. If they damage the slab during holdering they should re slab it and not leave their customers to worry about coin or slab . Also when you pay for a 70 you should get a flawless coin in a flawless slab. Quality control on slabbed modern coins is and has been an issue for far too long. This was the final straw for me. I will stay with raw coins from the mint for now on. My Morgan and Peace from the Mint are flawless.
I have been lucky and have not received a bad coin from the mint in many years but would return if I did.
Can't even check... Lol
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
They are not microscopic. See example above. I would not accept a car or furniture with PMD without an appropriate discount. At time of delivery, products should be free from defects unless disclosed or advertised not to be.
Many/misr of them are microscopic. Photos through a microscope make everything look large. It is very rare for a modern commem to grade as low as 68. If you want the standard to be 70, then prepare for the end of the commems. You simply cannot mint 70s only without the costs increasing astronomically. [and that includes cars and furniture which is why all industrial processes have tolerances.]
I just checked my USM orders and they have started processing the S Morgan and Peace proof dollars.
I have 1 Peace Dollar processed 8-5 & 2 Morgan's processed on 8-6. No tracking yet
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
Funny I can't even reach the website... Anyone else having trouble?
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
It's working fine for me from my PC. However nothing is showing in my order history yet about the proof.
I think two issues are being conflated here.
TPG slab quality is a separate issue from mint's coin quality.
I agree that slabs should be free of scratches (although I an amazed at how poorly some people treat their slabs).
Mint capsules are frequently scratched or have lint, and some people can't tell the difference between that and coin damage.
Ah tried a different browser on my phone and it worked. Weird.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
It was Amazon AWS CloudFront security platform casing your error due maybe to cookies or the application firewall....
I know it's complicated.....I work for them and I know how Amazon like to complicate things.
Just checked...I have nothing processing...yet
Using accounts ending in "D" and "R"...if that matters?
Nothing processing here yet either. @SilverPlatinum I cleared all my cookies and it's working again.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Probably the same people that touch the media side of their DVD's and CD's.
And in the "olden days", getting their greasy fingerprints all over their records. When I saw that, it was like watching (and hearing) someone scratch their nails on a blackboard. (I know, what's a blackboard?)
and be sure to check mark "inactive" unless you want to remain enrolled for the next one.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
well my 2023 proof peace dollar in in processing stage no word on morgan
ive been enrolled for nearly a year waiting for them all got the unc peace and morgan the proof peace is processing no word on morgan and the reverse proof set see ya in nov.14th or so
Wholesale them out, since they don't have the OGP necessary to sell them retail. If they were interested in selling them as 69s, that would be their minimum grade.
I thought the bulk guys don't receive OGP.
Faulty analogy. Folks don't purchase 25 (or even 10) new cars, or new recliner chairs, and then keep only the one or two that appear flawless to them.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Keep in mind that the pop reports for these modern coins do not reflect the quality of the entire mintage....only the quality of the ones submitted. And of the ones that are submitted, there are biases:
-early minimum grade 70 submissions by the big boys skew grades towards 70 early on, only to be eventually be diluted by collector submissions
-collector submissions (after First Strike submission) tend to be pre-screened, where the dregs are not typically submitted, which creates a floor that is higher than the overall mintage quality.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
The analogy is apt. If they care (let's face it, some people don't care if their car or coin is free of defects), for the one car or coffee table they do buy, if it arrived damage, they would reject it, demand a discount, or have it fixed. Obviously fixing coins isn't an option nor is the mint going to give a discount, so that leaves the only option to return it.
Updated "70 rate" report current to today.
Besides summary # graded, # 70, and % 70 column, I've added FDOI & Advanced Releases %70 and the percentage of the total graded that are FDOI/AR versus base label & First Strike %70 and the percentage of the total graded that are base label & First Strike %70.
.
Key points:
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor