So what are your thoughts on a new thread for the proofs? Should we just keep this ole mule a runnin. Thanks buddy 🙏
I think it'd be worth starting a new thread. This one has branched out enough!
The fact that this thread has so many views shows why it was created. One place to track all the events related to the 2023 Morgan & Peace Dollars. No need to hunt for numerous threads on the subject. The uncirculated and proof coins are very intertwined and feed off of each other. That being said, this is an open forum and you can post wherever you wish.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
Having one central thread for all of the Morgan and Peace dollars is nice.
BTW, has anyone been watching what the RP sets are going for on ebay? Kind of crazy for something you still may be able to pick up on subscription or on the day of release.
@BucketHead said:
Having one central thread for all of the Morgan and Peace dollars is nice.
BTW, has anyone been watching what the RP sets are going for on ebay? Kind of crazy for something you still may be able to pick up on subscription or on the day of release.
A lot of people probably don't know they can order direct. So it's really reaching a crowd that is otherwise unreached by the mint in some respects.
The thing that gets me is they can presale out months in advance, but I can only presale out 40 days max, and if I don't ship by the ebay imposed deadline I'm going to get dinged (obviously can't ship before I have the coins and it's way more than 40 days out). Now that is annoying. 🤔
Additionally it's doing the buyers a disservice as ebay only guarantees things for what, 30 days? So no refunds guaranteed after that. And if they don't get the product? Ouch. Up a creek?
@Jzyskowski1 said:
HSN musta gotta the leftovers. Wasn’t it reported here on the forum that they only got 40% 70’s from the peace dollar? They wouldn’t fib, would they? 🤨
It’s shocking!!
They may not pre-screen them while the others have.
And they also might be full of poop. Based on the high cost of TV time, and their overall pattern of simply being VERY expensive, there is no way on earth they'd be selling 70s at only $300 if they were only receiving a 40% hit rate. Period.
Mike's audience is very unsophisticated, and untruths come out of his mouth on every show. There is no way he, with his volume, is not receiving 70s at the same rate everyone else is. Don't try to rationalize it, because I'm telling you, it's just not true, based on nothing other than his selling price, let alone his history.
And by the way, no one is pre-screening at those volumes. The TPGs are pre-screening for them by allowing them to specify a minimum grade of 70. All the large submitters do it, and it is the reason individuals don't get the same results on their submissions.
Must you argue even when we agree.
A 40% 70s rate could correspond to 100% 70s in slabs if the other 60% are simply returned in OGP. Ir they could be slabbed as 69s because they sell them either way if they don't bother tob designate 70s only. I'm simply not sure why the op thinks HSN must be lying about the rate. . The pop numbers have never accurately reflected the actual production quality due to everything from orescreening to minimum grade designations.
Because this is what we do! 😀
All kidding aside, because, given Mike's markup and overhead, he is not selling coins that he is buying for around $70 raw for $300, with the "special" FUN show label, if only 40% of them are coming back to him as 70s. He still has to do something with the 60% the TPG would be returning to him. Are you taking them off his hands at breakeven or better? I didn't think so.
This is why I must argue. Because we actually do not agree here. He is full of crap. Every show. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth. He is submitting thousands, just like all the other Big Boys. He is getting the same 70 rate as everyone else. And, believe me, no one is getting back as 70s 400 out of every 1,000 $70+ (after taking into account whatever small discount the Mint gives them) coins submitted and pricing them at $150 or less. Just not happening.
Everything else you are saying about the economics of the Big Boys is spot on. That, plus easy, wide availability for the Big Boys with a mintage of 275,000, without having to pay a big premium to the flippers in the secondary market, AND the fact that a large percentage of these are 70s, not 40%, but probably closer to 80%, is why they have nowhere to go but down, even they are sold out.
The question then becomes what happens with the proofs. They have much higher mintage, but they are also mush more popular. My prediction is that they will be about the same. Sellout or close to it, with no flip, and wide availability of 70s at around $150, UNLESS, the quality isn't there and 60% actually come back as 69s, or ungraded to the Big Boys. In that case, look for the price of 70s to be around double what they are for the UNCs.
@spyglassdesign said:
What the heck is advanced emergency issue? They haven't even been issued yet lmao...
Maybe the seller needs emergency funds to pay his PCGS bill. With tears running down his cheek, he convinced the Mint that this is a true life-and-death emergency. Because the Mint has a big heart, they handed the seller a few proofs from a back room, and these are now on sale at heavy prices to provide the seller with the needed emergency funds.
@BucketHead said:
Having one central thread for all of the Morgan and Peace dollars is nice.
BTW, has anyone been watching what the RP sets are going for on ebay? Kind of crazy for something you still may be able to pick up on subscription or on the day of release.
A lot of people probably don't know they can order direct. So it's really reaching a crowd that is otherwise unreached by the mint in some respects.
The thing that gets me is they can presale out months in advance, but I can only presale out 40 days max, and if I don't ship by the ebay imposed deadline I'm going to get dinged (obviously can't ship before I have the coins and it's way more than 40 days out). Now that is annoying. 🤔
Additionally it's doing the buyers a disservice as ebay only guarantees things for what, 30 days? So no refunds guaranteed after that. And if they don't get the product? Ouch. Up a creek?
Charge backs can be done for months after the sale. Some credit cards allow over a year.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
HSN musta gotta the leftovers. Wasn’t it reported here on the forum that they only got 40% 70’s from the peace dollar? They wouldn’t fib, would they? 🤨
It’s shocking!!
They may not pre-screen them while the others have.
And they also might be full of poop. Based on the high cost of TV time, and their overall pattern of simply being VERY expensive, there is no way on earth they'd be selling 70s at only $300 if they were only receiving a 40% hit rate. Period.
Mike's audience is very unsophisticated, and untruths come out of his mouth on every show. There is no way he, with his volume, is not receiving 70s at the same rate everyone else is. Don't try to rationalize it, because I'm telling you, it's just not true, based on nothing other than his selling price, let alone his history.
And by the way, no one is pre-screening at those volumes. The TPGs are pre-screening for them by allowing them to specify a minimum grade of 70. All the large submitters do it, and it is the reason individuals don't get the same results on their submissions.
Must you argue even when we agree.
A 40% 70s rate could correspond to 100% 70s in slabs if the other 60% are simply returned in OGP. Ir they could be slabbed as 69s because they sell them either way if they don't bother tob designate 70s only. I'm simply not sure why the op thinks HSN must be lying about the rate. . The pop numbers have never accurately reflected the actual production quality due to everything from orescreening to minimum grade designations.
Because this is what we do! 😀
All kidding aside, because, given Mike's markup and overhead, he is not selling coins that he is buying for around $70 raw for $300, with the "special" FUN show label, if only 40% of them are coming back to him as 70s. He still has to do something with the 60% the TPG would be returning to him. Are you taking them off his hands at breakeven or better? I didn't think so.
This is why I must argue. Because we actually do not agree here. He is full of crap. Every show. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth. He is submitting thousands, just like all the other Big Boys. He is getting the same 70 rate as everyone else. And, believe me, no one is getting back as 70s 400 out of every 1,000 $70+ (after taking into account whatever small discount the Mint gives them) coins submitted and pricing them at $150 or less. Just not happening.
Everything else you are saying about the economics of the Big Boys is spot on. That, plus easy, wide availability for the Big Boys with a mintage of 275,000, without having to pay a big premium to the flippers in the secondary market, AND the fact that a large percentage of these are 70s, not 40%, but probably closer to 80%, is why they have nowhere to go but down, even they are sold out.
The question then becomes what happens with the proofs. They have much higher mintage, but they are also mush more popular. My prediction is that they will be about the same. Sellout or close to it, with no flip, and wide availability of 70s at around $150, UNLESS, the quality isn't there and 60% actually come back as 69s, or ungraded to the Big Boys. In that case, look for the price of 70s to be around double what they are for the UNCs.
Actually, this is common for a lot of issues. Look at Pinehurst. Sometimes hey will sell 69s or OGP at less than issue price and make all their money on 70s.
Sorry to confuse you with facts. It takes the fun out of random speculation. I've actually bought large lots of 69s from Big Boys at less than issue price when they are clearing them out.
@Goldminers said:
There are currently 1,686 PCGS authorized dealers. It can take several months to be approved. Dealers have to abide by strict rules, and likely non-disclosure of certain aspects of their dealer costs and benefits. As others have stated you will not see the dealer rates or rules, unless you are an authorized dealer.
Requirements for Becoming a PCGS Authorized Dealer
Applicant must have been a full-time coin dealer for at least three years.
Applicant and key employees must not have been convicted of a felony in the past five years.
Applicant must have capitalization of $100,000 or more including inventory.
Minimum of three credit references.
Minimum of three PCGS Authorized Dealer references.
Here is a published list of all of the authorized dealers. You can submit coins for grading through many of them or do it yourself.
And not all are on the list apparently. I have been one for over a decade at least and am not in the directory by name or company. I probably didn't get a mailer to complete some details (like website, etc). Might be just me missing or an unknown number. I do recall the process being fairly long and arduous. Rules are what one should expect in return for some modest benefits. There is probably a higher tier that gets better rates and faster turnover for bringing more business, but I don't know. Some do get the special label (like FDOI) access.
@RichR said:
I’m sorry…but what is this “Advanced Emergency Issue” garbage?
What does that even referencing?
Since when can you just make up stuff on slab labels?
I assume it might be a photoshop job to make a joke. I've seen emergency issue labels before but not coupled with Advanced, and apparently that happened around 2020/2021 since they lacked the supply of eagles from the normal runs.
@RichR said:
I’m sorry…but what is this “Advanced Emergency Issue” garbage?
What does that even referencing?
Since when can you just make up stuff on slab labels?
I assume it might be a photoshop job to make a joke. I've seen emergency issue labels before but not coupled with Advanced, and apparently that happened around 2020/2021 since they lacked the supply of eagles from the normal runs.
Bingo. We have a winner. It’s a funny funny joke😂😂😂
@RichR said:
I’m sorry…but what is this “Advanced Emergency Issue” garbage?
What does that even referencing?
Since when can you just make up stuff on slab labels?
I assume it might be a photoshop job to make a joke. I've seen emergency issue labels before but not coupled with Advanced, and apparently that happened around 2020/2021 since they lacked the supply of eagles from the normal runs.
Bingo. We have a winner. It’s a funny funny joke😂😂😂
Maybe I'm putting too much magnification on them (30X), but all three of my 2023 Morgan dollars have a tiny gouge or toolmark in the same location. Pictured is the worst of the three. There is a thin raised edge and striations in the metal below. The location is the reverse of the coin, right side of the coin, between the two uppermost berries on the wreath. Anyone know what would cause this? Anyone have a similar gouge in the same location on their coins?
@Whitecastle
Both of mine do not have that much of a “gouge” I think it is a part of the design?
One of my Peace dollars had a deep slice on the reverse rim. So much that the displaced metal hung like a flap over the surface.
I got two peace, both impaired, sold them to LCS today for about 5% over mint price.
Thank you. It’s just different light, probably daylight or a nearby LED fixture. The light on the 30x close up is warm incandescent making other light look more blue.
@Jzyskowski1 said:
HSN musta gotta the leftovers. Wasn’t it reported here on the forum that they only got 40% 70’s from the peace dollar? They wouldn’t fib, would they? 🤨
It’s shocking!!
They may not pre-screen them while the others have.
And they also might be full of poop. Based on the high cost of TV time, and their overall pattern of simply being VERY expensive, there is no way on earth they'd be selling 70s at only $300 if they were only receiving a 40% hit rate. Period.
Mike's audience is very unsophisticated, and untruths come out of his mouth on every show. There is no way he, with his volume, is not receiving 70s at the same rate everyone else is. Don't try to rationalize it, because I'm telling you, it's just not true, based on nothing other than his selling price, let alone his history.
And by the way, no one is pre-screening at those volumes. The TPGs are pre-screening for them by allowing them to specify a minimum grade of 70. All the large submitters do it, and it is the reason individuals don't get the same results on their submissions.
Must you argue even when we agree.
A 40% 70s rate could correspond to 100% 70s in slabs if the other 60% are simply returned in OGP. Ir they could be slabbed as 69s because they sell them either way if they don't bother tob designate 70s only. I'm simply not sure why the op thinks HSN must be lying about the rate. . The pop numbers have never accurately reflected the actual production quality due to everything from orescreening to minimum grade designations.
Because this is what we do! 😀
All kidding aside, because, given Mike's markup and overhead, he is not selling coins that he is buying for around $70 raw for $300, with the "special" FUN show label, if only 40% of them are coming back to him as 70s. He still has to do something with the 60% the TPG would be returning to him. Are you taking them off his hands at breakeven or better? I didn't think so.
This is why I must argue. Because we actually do not agree here. He is full of crap. Every show. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth. He is submitting thousands, just like all the other Big Boys. He is getting the same 70 rate as everyone else. And, believe me, no one is getting back as 70s 400 out of every 1,000 $70+ (after taking into account whatever small discount the Mint gives them) coins submitted and pricing them at $150 or less. Just not happening.
Everything else you are saying about the economics of the Big Boys is spot on. That, plus easy, wide availability for the Big Boys with a mintage of 275,000, without having to pay a big premium to the flippers in the secondary market, AND the fact that a large percentage of these are 70s, not 40%, but probably closer to 80%, is why they have nowhere to go but down, even they are sold out.
The question then becomes what happens with the proofs. They have much higher mintage, but they are also mush more popular. My prediction is that they will be about the same. Sellout or close to it, with no flip, and wide availability of 70s at around $150, UNLESS, the quality isn't there and 60% actually come back as 69s, or ungraded to the Big Boys. In that case, look for the price of 70s to be around double what they are for the UNCs.
Actually, this is common for a lot of issues. Look at Pinehurst. Sometimes hey will sell 69s or OGP at less than issue price and make all their money on 70s.
Sorry to confuse you with facts. It takes the fun out of random speculation. I've actually bought large lots of 69s from Big Boys at less than issue price when they are clearing them out.
Yes, I understand. Obviously, selling anything at less what you pay is no way to run a business. And yes, the Pinehursts of the world will take a loss on their 69s when that is all the market will bear. You are ignoring that when those 69s represent 60% or more of their initial investment, 70s are not selling for less than double original issue price.
My facts, which you choose to ignore, since I know you are not confused by them, is that the guy on TV is not merely making 4x his money on 40% of his inventory while taking a small loss on the balance. He lied. The vast majority of these are grading 70, not 69, or being returned ungraded.
Why are you even arguing this, other than it turns out that you are the one who can't let anything go and need to argue and win every single time? There is no way in hell that Mike Mezack on HSN is getting a lower percentage of 70s than all his peers. And there is no way the rest of the world is making money selling 40% of their inventory at a much less than 100% markup while making nothing, or losing, on the balance of their investment on these.
I know this and, more importantly, you know this. So what argument are you trying to win here? That you know more than me? You don't. At least not when it comes to moderns. Or VB. 😀
So what are your thoughts on a new thread for the proofs? Should we just keep this ole mule a runnin. Thanks buddy 🙏
I think it'd be worth starting a new thread. This one has branched out enough!
One place to track all the events related to the 2023 Morgan & Peace Dollars.
I totally agree, and appreciate you starting an official thread like this...but also agree with > @MilesWaits said:
Might be better to start an official ****Peace Dollar I came here to Argue**** thread for the usual debate clubbers.
Staying on topic would be nice. Just sayin'....there seems to be a lot of debating bulk dealers and grading policies that took this thread on another track. I enjoyed reading everything till the last couple pages- I had to check to see if I was on the same thread. > @BucketHead said:
Having one central thread for all of the Morgan and Peace dollars is nice.
And we still have the Proof and Reverse versions to talk about!!
@Whitecastle said:
Maybe I'm putting too much magnification on them (30X), but all three of my 2023 Morgan dollars have a tiny gouge or toolmark in the same location. Pictured is the worst of the three. There is a thin raised edge and striations in the metal below. The location is the reverse of the coin, right side of the coin, between the two uppermost berries on the wreath. Anyone know what would cause this? Anyone have a similar gouge in the same location on their coins?
I'd like to say welcome to the forum, but it appears you joined the forum in 2012......and these are really your first two posts?
@Whitecastle said:
Anyone have a similar gouge in the same location on their coins?
I have one Morgan. It has identically the same "feature".
My 2 Morgans came in today and both have the marks. One is stronger than the other. On the stronger one, you can also see it in each of the creases going down that branch. But it’s strongest at that top split and almost unnoticeable at the lowest.
@coiner said:
Lots of "air" had to be let out I see. Everyone has an opinion.
You clearly see the guidelines. No minimum grade requests at 70.
It isn't my first rodeo, I've heard "stories" as well. All are hearsay unless someone can produce the guidelines written in black and white for all to see.
I hope that you do not mind another response from one of the gasbags.
So it's "opinion/hearsay" unless it is in "black and white for all to see". OK. Post a screenshot from the subject 'bulk agreement' that includes the words 'First Day of Issue' and 'Advanced Release'. That will be definitive proof that the agreement is applicable to the situation being discussed.
@MetroD. If you are aware of other agreements between our hosts and submitters, whether they be dealers or collectors, then you can provide the proof of such agreements? I provided the BULK submission guidlines. Now its your turn to put your money where your mouth is.......lets see that agreement that says ANYONE (dealer or collector) can submit and only request 70's be holdered?
Have you guys looked at the quality of these dollars? Do you have a reasonable quantity to compare?
I do have quantities. These coins are very well struck and minimal if any marks. I was hard pressed to find flaws on the vast majority of the coins I received.
Based on the "thousands" of coins already holdered in a very short period of time, it is reasonable that a quick pre-screening before submission could cull out 69's. Obviously, I dont think that 96.7% of all peace dollars on the screen shot provided inn this thread really grade 70. Between the sheer numbers that had to flow through the process in such a short period of time, I suspect the error rate should be at least 10%. This is solely based on my screening of several hundred of these dollars in capsules.
@coiner said:
Lots of "air" had to be let out I see. Everyone has an opinion.
You clearly see the guidelines. No minimum grade requests at 70.
It isn't my first rodeo, I've heard "stories" as well. All are hearsay unless someone can produce the guidelines written in black and white for all to see.
I hope that you do not mind another response from one of the gasbags.
So it's "opinion/hearsay" unless it is in "black and white for all to see". OK. Post a screenshot from the subject 'bulk agreement' that includes the words 'First Day of Issue' and 'Advanced Release'. That will be definitive proof that the agreement is applicable to the situation being discussed.
@MetroD. If you are aware of other agreements between our hosts and submitters, whether they be dealers or collectors, then you can provide the proof of such agreements? I provided the BULK submission guidlines. Now its your turn to put your money where your mouth is.......lets see that agreement that says ANYONE (dealer or collector) can submit and only request 70's be holdered?
OH, wait, you cant. What a shame.
I also can't show you the agreement between Walmart and General Electric for light bulbs. But do you really think Walmart has the same terms you do?
I've done deals with bulk submitters. I discussed doing submissions through bulk submitters. I am not one, however, so I don't have the paperwork
@coiner said:
Have you guys looked at the quality of these dollars? Do you have a reasonable quantity to compare?
I do have quantities. These coins are very well struck and minimal if any marks. I was hard pressed to find flaws on the vast majority of the coins I received.
Based on the "thousands" of coins already holdered in a very short period of time, it is reasonable that a quick pre-screening before submission could cull out 69's. Obviously, I dont think that 96.7% of all peace dollars on the screen shot provided inn this thread really grade 70. Between the sheer numbers that had to flow through the process in such a short period of time, I suspect the error rate should be at least 10%. This is solely based on my screening of several hundred of these dollars in capsules.
Well now, That makes me feel terrible. Bought one of each and they both have problems. Could you please send me a little of your luck? I sure could use it. Thanks 🙏
An article in Coin World yesterday confirmed the 200 Peace coins were struck on July 10 and randomly inserted in orders. There was no mention of the Morgan having anything.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
@HATTRICK said:
An article in Coin World yesterday confirmed the 200 Peace coins were struck on July 10 and randomly inserted in orders. There was no mention of the Morgan having anything.
Production at the Philadelphia Mint of Uncirculated 2023-P Peace dollars included 200 coins struck July 10 by U.S. Mint Director Ventris C. Gibson and packaged with certificates of authenticity and “Congratulations” cards announcing the special strike.
The boxed coins struck by Gibson were randomly inserted into shipments to customers who ordered the numismatic product. Sales for the coin opened to the public at noon Eastern Time July 13, priced at $76.
@spyglassdesign said:
I find it hilarious that people love to argue about what they don't know. If they can't see it themselves it must not be true!
If you have enough money or make enough promises, you too can have an agreement others can't have.
You're treading on unstable ground. Remember who hosts our forum. Just think about what you are implying - whether it be truth or not.
Nothing of what you imply, or others say they know, is written anywhere in the guidelines. Let's just leave it at that.
It's a fact of life. Money talks. Those who have more have more privelages. I didn't demean anyone for doing so or agreeing to special terms. Pcgs is actually relatively lax on this forum unless you actually badmouth a tpg, including them. I've seen a lot of discussions about the various tpgs that were fair game and not closed.
You seem to be the one that can't accept that someone with more money or stock than you or I might have special deals with the tpgs that us little guys can't get. It's no different than Amazon's buying power versus ours. You really should face the music, because whether you like it or not, the public bulk guidelines are not the end all be all of guidelines for everyone. If I had 50k or 100k coins to submit to the a year versus someone who only submits a couple hundred a year, I guarantee you I'm going to be treated different. It's just a fact of life.
Nevermind that several people here with actual insider knowledge have confirmed that there are other private arrangements belies your denials.
@coiner said:
Lots of "air" had to be let out I see. Everyone has an opinion.
You clearly see the guidelines. No minimum grade requests at 70.
It isn't my first rodeo, I've heard "stories" as well. All are hearsay unless someone can produce the guidelines written in black and white for all to see.
I hope that you do not mind another response from one of the gasbags.
So it's "opinion/hearsay" unless it is in "black and white for all to see". OK. Post a screenshot from the subject 'bulk agreement' that includes the words 'First Day of Issue' and 'Advanced Release'. That will be definitive proof that the agreement is applicable to the situation being discussed.
@MetroD. If you are aware of other agreements between our hosts and submitters, whether they be dealers or collectors, then you can provide the proof of such agreements? I provided the BULK submission guidlines. Now its your turn to put your money where your mouth is.......lets see that agreement that says ANYONE (dealer or collector) can submit and only request 70's be holdered?
OH, wait, you cant. What a shame.
I am not privy to information about other 'programs/agreements'. So, I am unable to share anything.
You provided details about a 'bulk' program (i.e., max coin value of $300, $14 grading fee, "First Strike" eligible, etc.). The program you referenced does not appear to include "First Day of Issue" and "Advanced Release" attributions. If it does not include these designations, it would not be applicable to the situation being discussed.
FWIW, I agree with you. The 'bulk' program advertised on the website clearly prohibits minimum-70 submissions. I just do not think that you can extrapolate this requirement, and assume that it applies to every other 'bulk' submission.
I have sent an e-mail to PCGS. In this communication, I asked if the subject 'bulk' program includes "First Day of Issue" and "Advanced Release" designations. 'If/when' they respond, I will share the information.
Not knowing if those providing their opinions regarding "minimum 70" grades have experience with direct Bulk submissions?
I can say that I do. I have sent many 100-500 coin lots into PCGS for Bulk submission. Their guidelines are clear.
You are welcome to have your submission debate “SOMEWHERE ELSE” this thread is for discussion of the Morgan & Peace coins. We would all appreciate it if you started your own thread.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
My one single Peace dollar is peacefully resting inside its unopened shipping box waiting to be submitted with the Morgans, and proofs in August and some other coin to get the quarterly 5-coin grading special, for the price of 4.
I figure I have a chance of 1:1,375 of getting a special director's label and feel lucky
It will probably come back a MS68/69, because I think there have been quite a few mentioned with issues.
I already pre-ordered my single 70's for my main set, but figured one more in my subscription was worth it for fun. Probably won't get it back for 2-3 months based on recent submissions. The images seem to be a big delay lately.
Comments
The fact that this thread has so many views shows why it was created. One place to track all the events related to the 2023 Morgan & Peace Dollars. No need to hunt for numerous threads on the subject. The uncirculated and proof coins are very intertwined and feed off of each other. That being said, this is an open forum and you can post wherever you wish.
Having one central thread for all of the Morgan and Peace dollars is nice.
BTW, has anyone been watching what the RP sets are going for on ebay? Kind of crazy for something you still may be able to pick up on subscription or on the day of release.
A lot of people probably don't know they can order direct. So it's really reaching a crowd that is otherwise unreached by the mint in some respects.
The thing that gets me is they can presale out months in advance, but I can only presale out 40 days max, and if I don't ship by the ebay imposed deadline I'm going to get dinged (obviously can't ship before I have the coins and it's way more than 40 days out). Now that is annoying. 🤔
Additionally it's doing the buyers a disservice as ebay only guarantees things for what, 30 days? So no refunds guaranteed after that. And if they don't get the product? Ouch. Up a creek?
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Keep this one running.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Might be better to start an official ****Peace Dollar I came here to Argue**** thread for the usual debate clubbers.
As promised. Here’s the results from the $89 Morgan.
Zip
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
What the heck is advanced emergency issue? They haven't even been issued yet lmao...
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Because this is what we do! 😀
All kidding aside, because, given Mike's markup and overhead, he is not selling coins that he is buying for around $70 raw for $300, with the "special" FUN show label, if only 40% of them are coming back to him as 70s. He still has to do something with the 60% the TPG would be returning to him. Are you taking them off his hands at breakeven or better? I didn't think so.
This is why I must argue. Because we actually do not agree here. He is full of crap. Every show. Pretty much every time he opens his mouth. He is submitting thousands, just like all the other Big Boys. He is getting the same 70 rate as everyone else. And, believe me, no one is getting back as 70s 400 out of every 1,000 $70+ (after taking into account whatever small discount the Mint gives them) coins submitted and pricing them at $150 or less. Just not happening.
Everything else you are saying about the economics of the Big Boys is spot on. That, plus easy, wide availability for the Big Boys with a mintage of 275,000, without having to pay a big premium to the flippers in the secondary market, AND the fact that a large percentage of these are 70s, not 40%, but probably closer to 80%, is why they have nowhere to go but down, even they are sold out.
The question then becomes what happens with the proofs. They have much higher mintage, but they are also mush more popular. My prediction is that they will be about the same. Sellout or close to it, with no flip, and wide availability of 70s at around $150, UNLESS, the quality isn't there and 60% actually come back as 69s, or ungraded to the Big Boys. In that case, look for the price of 70s to be around double what they are for the UNCs.
Maybe the seller needs emergency funds to pay his PCGS bill. With tears running down his cheek, he convinced the Mint that this is a true life-and-death emergency. Because the Mint has a big heart, they handed the seller a few proofs from a back room, and these are now on sale at heavy prices to provide the seller with the needed emergency funds.
Charge backs can be done for months after the sale. Some credit cards allow over a year.
Actually, this is common for a lot of issues. Look at Pinehurst. Sometimes hey will sell 69s or OGP at less than issue price and make all their money on 70s.
Sorry to confuse you with facts. It takes the fun out of random speculation. I've actually bought large lots of 69s from Big Boys at less than issue price when they are clearing them out.
I offered some at $89 today on ebay and I was countered at $85. I did sell 2 at $93
And not all are on the list apparently. I have been one for over a decade at least and am not in the directory by name or company. I probably didn't get a mailer to complete some details (like website, etc). Might be just me missing or an unknown number. I do recall the process being fairly long and arduous. Rules are what one should expect in return for some modest benefits. There is probably a higher tier that gets better rates and faster turnover for bringing more business, but I don't know. Some do get the special label (like FDOI) access.
I’m sorry…but what is this “Advanced Emergency Issue” garbage?
What is that even referencing? It’s a proof dollar…that’s it!
Since when can you just make up stuff on slab labels?
I assume it might be a photoshop job to make a joke. I've seen emergency issue labels before but not coupled with Advanced, and apparently that happened around 2020/2021 since they lacked the supply of eagles from the normal runs.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Bingo. We have a winner. It’s a funny funny joke😂😂😂
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Darn!! And I wanted to order that coin!
Maybe I'm putting too much magnification on them (30X), but all three of my 2023 Morgan dollars have a tiny gouge or toolmark in the same location. Pictured is the worst of the three. There is a thin raised edge and striations in the metal below. The location is the reverse of the coin, right side of the coin, between the two uppermost berries on the wreath. Anyone know what would cause this? Anyone have a similar gouge in the same location on their coins?
Here’s mine
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@Whitecastle
Both of mine do not have that much of a “gouge” I think it is a part of the design?
One of my Peace dollars had a deep slice on the reverse rim. So much that the displaced metal hung like a flap over the surface.
I got two peace, both impaired, sold them to LCS today for about 5% over mint price.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Mine arrived
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71
Cool pic....how did you get the blue highlight in there?
Thank you. It’s just different light, probably daylight or a nearby LED fixture. The light on the 30x close up is warm incandescent making other light look more blue.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Yes, I understand. Obviously, selling anything at less what you pay is no way to run a business. And yes, the Pinehursts of the world will take a loss on their 69s when that is all the market will bear. You are ignoring that when those 69s represent 60% or more of their initial investment, 70s are not selling for less than double original issue price.
My facts, which you choose to ignore, since I know you are not confused by them, is that the guy on TV is not merely making 4x his money on 40% of his inventory while taking a small loss on the balance. He lied. The vast majority of these are grading 70, not 69, or being returned ungraded.
Why are you even arguing this, other than it turns out that you are the one who can't let anything go and need to argue and win every single time? There is no way in hell that Mike Mezack on HSN is getting a lower percentage of 70s than all his peers. And there is no way the rest of the world is making money selling 40% of their inventory at a much less than 100% markup while making nothing, or losing, on the balance of their investment on these.
I know this and, more importantly, you know this. So what argument are you trying to win here? That you know more than me? You don't. At least not when it comes to moderns. Or VB. 😀
One place to track all the events related to the 2023 Morgan & Peace Dollars.
I totally agree, and appreciate you starting an official thread like this...but also agree with > @MilesWaits said:
Staying on topic would be nice. Just sayin'....there seems to be a lot of debating bulk dealers and grading policies that took this thread on another track. I enjoyed reading everything till the last couple pages- I had to check to see if I was on the same thread. > @BucketHead said:
And we still have the Proof and Reverse versions to talk about!!
I'd like to say welcome to the forum, but it appears you joined the forum in 2012......and these are really your first two posts?
If so, you need to stop the lurking thing.
Thanks!
That might be a record for longest time on the forum and least amount of posts. Indeed welcome
And good pictures. Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I have one Morgan. It has identically the same "feature".
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Mine also has the same feature and my 2021 Morgan has it also.
Here is my Washington Quarter Variety Registry Set
This is my Washington Quarter Proof Variety Registry Set
My 2 Morgans came in today and both have the marks. One is stronger than the other. On the stronger one, you can also see it in each of the creases going down that branch. But it’s strongest at that top split and almost unnoticeable at the lowest.
I bit off topic, I have a 2008 burnished platinum eagle with marks like that.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
[I have one Morgan. It has identically the same "feature".]
Almost identical...except that for you and me...it gets a 69...but for large submissions, it's invisible!
You're treading on unstable ground. Remember who hosts our forum. Just think about what you are implying - whether it be truth or not.
Nothing of what you imply, or others say they know, is written anywhere in the guidelines. Let's just leave it at that.
@MetroD. If you are aware of other agreements between our hosts and submitters, whether they be dealers or collectors, then you can provide the proof of such agreements? I provided the BULK submission guidlines. Now its your turn to put your money where your mouth is.......lets see that agreement that says ANYONE (dealer or collector) can submit and only request 70's be holdered?
OH, wait, you cant. What a shame.
Have you guys looked at the quality of these dollars? Do you have a reasonable quantity to compare?
I do have quantities. These coins are very well struck and minimal if any marks. I was hard pressed to find flaws on the vast majority of the coins I received.
Based on the "thousands" of coins already holdered in a very short period of time, it is reasonable that a quick pre-screening before submission could cull out 69's. Obviously, I dont think that 96.7% of all peace dollars on the screen shot provided inn this thread really grade 70. Between the sheer numbers that had to flow through the process in such a short period of time, I suspect the error rate should be at least 10%. This is solely based on my screening of several hundred of these dollars in capsules.
I also can't show you the agreement between Walmart and General Electric for light bulbs. But do you really think Walmart has the same terms you do?
I've done deals with bulk submitters. I discussed doing submissions through bulk submitters. I am not one, however, so I don't have the paperwork
Well now, That makes me feel terrible. Bought one of each and they both have problems. Could you please send me a little of your luck? I sure could use it. Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Nothing again this morning.
Successful transactions with forum members commoncents05, dmarks, Coinscratch, Bullsitter, DCW, TwoSides2aCoin, Namvet69 (facilitated for 3rd party), Tetromibi, ProfLizMay, MASSU2, MWallace, Bruce7789, Twobitcollector, 78saen, U1chicago, Rob41281
🛏💤
Not today. Nothing showed up. 🤠
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
An article in Coin World yesterday confirmed the 200 Peace coins were struck on July 10 and randomly inserted in orders. There was no mention of the Morgan having anything.
Production at the Philadelphia Mint of Uncirculated 2023-P Peace dollars included 200 coins struck July 10 by U.S. Mint Director Ventris C. Gibson and packaged with certificates of authenticity and “Congratulations” cards announcing the special strike.
The boxed coins struck by Gibson were randomly inserted into shipments to customers who ordered the numismatic product. Sales for the coin opened to the public at noon Eastern Time July 13, priced at $76.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/specially-struck-2023-peace-dollars-randomly-shipped
Thanks Goldbully
It's a fact of life. Money talks. Those who have more have more privelages. I didn't demean anyone for doing so or agreeing to special terms. Pcgs is actually relatively lax on this forum unless you actually badmouth a tpg, including them. I've seen a lot of discussions about the various tpgs that were fair game and not closed.
You seem to be the one that can't accept that someone with more money or stock than you or I might have special deals with the tpgs that us little guys can't get. It's no different than Amazon's buying power versus ours. You really should face the music, because whether you like it or not, the public bulk guidelines are not the end all be all of guidelines for everyone. If I had 50k or 100k coins to submit to the a year versus someone who only submits a couple hundred a year, I guarantee you I'm going to be treated different. It's just a fact of life.
Nevermind that several people here with actual insider knowledge have confirmed that there are other private arrangements belies your denials.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I am not privy to information about other 'programs/agreements'. So, I am unable to share anything.
You provided details about a 'bulk' program (i.e., max coin value of $300, $14 grading fee, "First Strike" eligible, etc.). The program you referenced does not appear to include "First Day of Issue" and "Advanced Release" attributions. If it does not include these designations, it would not be applicable to the situation being discussed.
FWIW, I agree with you. The 'bulk' program advertised on the website clearly prohibits minimum-70 submissions. I just do not think that you can extrapolate this requirement, and assume that it applies to every other 'bulk' submission.
I have sent an e-mail to PCGS. In this communication, I asked if the subject 'bulk' program includes "First Day of Issue" and "Advanced Release" designations. 'If/when' they respond, I will share the information.
Not knowing if those providing their opinions regarding "minimum 70" grades have experience with direct Bulk submissions?
I can say that I do. I have sent many 100-500 coin lots into PCGS for Bulk submission. Their guidelines are clear.
You are welcome to have your submission debate “SOMEWHERE ELSE” this thread is for discussion of the Morgan & Peace coins. We would all appreciate it if you started your own thread.
My one single Peace dollar is peacefully resting inside its unopened shipping box waiting to be submitted with the Morgans, and proofs in August and some other coin to get the quarterly 5-coin grading special, for the price of 4.
I figure I have a chance of 1:1,375 of getting a special director's label and feel lucky
It will probably come back a MS68/69, because I think there have been quite a few mentioned with issues.
I already pre-ordered my single 70's for my main set, but figured one more in my subscription was worth it for fun. Probably won't get it back for 2-3 months based on recent submissions. The images seem to be a big delay lately.
Good luck to all.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set