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I Felt Obligated To Warn The Coin Collectors

I felt that i needed to do something and try to warn people about what scammers are now doing especially with PCGS certified coins. I am new to this forum but i have been reading stuff on here every now and then from the sidelines and i have been collecting coins especially certified Morgan dollars for 17 years.

So this is what happened to me, I bought this PCGS 1886-O Morgan MS63 on ebay and after i paid for it i thought i had got an okay deal. I then went looking at sold listings and one web site i went to was Greatcollections on their archive of sold listings, upon looking i had found the same PCGS holder and certification # so i thought wow i can see what this coin sold for in 2016, but upon looking at the coin on Greatcollections i noticed it looked nothing like the one i just bought on ebay, so then i checked the certification #'s like three times to make sure it matched the one i bought on ebay and it did, so then i knew something was going on here because PCGS does not give two coins the same certification #.

So the next day i thought i would call PCGS. I gave both links of both auctions to the person at PCGS and also told them the situation (which the person at PCGS was so helpful) and he compared the two Morgan's and definitely said that the coins were switched. I told him that the QR code on the PCGS holder on the Morgan i bought did scan. I told him if the coins were switched how did the scammers not break the PCGS holder because i thought all PCGS holders had to be broken to get the coin out and he said there WAS a way to get the coin out of a PCGS holder WITHOUT breaking the holder and he said that the scammers must have figured it out.

Here's what the scammers are doing: So i asked the person at PCGS, why would someone switch out a perfectly good coin and how would they gain from doing this? He said what their doing is buying a high dollar PCGS graded coin, then the scammers buy the same coin but they buy a grade or two lesser then the higher graded coin, then they open the holder carefully (because there is a way apparently) and switch the coins out, then they send the high dollar PCGS graded coin back to PCGS to be graded again and 99% of the time it will come back the same grade, then they take the lower graded coin and sale it in an original PCGS holder and label and then make $2,000-$5,000 or more and when they get the regraded coin back they sell it too or they keep it and get a free coin.

Here's the link to the one i bought on ebay: https://ebay.com/itm/155029775167?nma=true&si=TN0PWkdn4s0QLHNGeLCHPnmNnqg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Here's the one from Greatcollections: https://greatcollections.com/Coin/371971/1886-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-63-Toned

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Comments

  • 1northcoin1northcoin Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It will be interesting to learn from our hosts as to confirming or denying that there is in fact a " way to get the coin out of a PCGS holder" without breaking the holder. Assuming that is the case does the guarantee still apply in a situation such as that described by the OP?

    Also I would assume the newer holders have been designed to make "this way" no longer effective, but that would be welcome to have confirmed or denied as well.

  • MarkInDavisMarkInDavis Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 1:24AM

    I have a hard time believing there is a way to get a coin out of a PCGS holder and another one in without it being detectable. It might be doable to the point of someone not looking closely at the holder they purchased getting fooled and certainly could be done in a counterfeit holder. But if it can be done in a genuine PCGS holder undetectably (and I’d have to see it to believe it), it would make slabbing coins useless. Edit: I spent some time looking at the 2 coins/holders linked. I am on an iPhone so it is a bit tough, but the gasket around the eBay coin does look a bit wonky. I did not see anything obviously wrong with the holder or insert, but an in hand exam would be preferable.

    image Respectfully, Mark
  • 1northcoin1northcoin Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 1:32AM

    @MarkInDavis said:
    I have a hard time believing there is a way to get a coin out of a PCGS holder and another one in without it being detectable. It might be doable to the point of someone not looking closely at the holder they purchased getting fooled and certainly could be done in a counterfeit holder. But if it can be done in a genuine PCGS holder undetectably (and I’d have to see it to believe it), it would make slabbing coins useless.

    Perhaps the OP can take some photos of the holder from all sides and let us see how obviously detectable it was/is or was/ is not. If I understand the post correctly, we are talking about an original holder and not a counterfeit one.

    When PCGS recently came out with a new holder I believe there was some reference to it providing better security so apparently something needed improving.

    As an added thought would it be possible to cement together an original holder on one side and a substituted or counterfeit one on the other side? If so it might not matter if the one side being replaced had been broken to remove the coin.

  • @MarkInDavis said:
    I have a hard time believing there is a way to get a coin out of a PCGS holder and another one in without it being detectable. It might be doable to the point of someone not looking closely at the holder they purchased getting fooled and certainly could be done in a counterfeit holder. But if it can be done in a genuine PCGS holder undetectably (and I’d have to see it to believe it), it would make slabbing coins useless. Edit: I spent some time looking at the 2 coins/holders linked. I am on an iPhone so it is a bit tough, but the gasket around the eBay coin does look a bit wonky. I did not see anything obviously wrong with the holder or insert, but an in hand exam would be preferable.

    I also thought the gasket looked kind of wonky too. I also thought the PCGS holders would break to get coin out but the PCGS representative exact words when i told him that was "there's a way and they must have figured it out" but i did tell him that upon looking on youtube to spot counterfeit PCGS holders i ran a couple of videos of people showing that there is web sites selling aftermarket holders and the PCGS representative didn't comment on that and i did tell him that i didn't see if the aftermarket holders match the original PCGS holders.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 2:19AM

    Sorry to hear about this. Did you contact EBay in order to try to get your money back?

    The images aren’t the best, but the eBay example doesn’t look like an obviously-switched coin.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was another similar thread recently. I searched but did not quickly find it. As I recall it went something like:

    They purchase an original coin. They crack it out but keep the pcgs label (so original label). They use a counterfeit slab and the original label with another coin (in this case the coin was a fake). Then sell it.

    They still have the original coin.

    It was a 1916 D Mercury as I recall and the fake had an added mint mark.

    I think I got that right but others will be along to correct if not.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • I also did find out some more evidence, this scammer has at least three ebay accounts and all the accounts only have 3 to 6 feedbacks, all the coins are very high grade morgans or rare high priced morgans, all the pictures have the same lighting, all the pictures use the same back ground they just change the back ground colors, and they are all located in same state. Remember to make the profit you have to sell both coins, so in they sell one of the morgans under one account and then sell the other under another account. So for example, if you look at the account where i bought the 1886 O Morgan, then go to ebay sold listings and look for PCGS 1886 O Morgan MS63 you'll find another account owned by same person.

    Yesterday they just sold a PCGS 1901 Morgan MS61 and after it sold they listed another PCGS 1901 Morgan MS61 under their other account, remember those are the two Morgan they have to sell and one of those is the real MS61 that was sent to PCGS to be regraded and the one or two grade lower Morgan was put in the carefully opened PCGS holder or aftermarket holder and then they make all that profit off of one of the Morgans.

    Here's the one that just sold: https://ebay.com/itm/234585625027?hash=item369e6491c3%3Ag%3A82oAAOSw4slipBE8&nma=true&si=TN0PWkdn4s0QLHNGeLCHPnmNnqg%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    Here's the one that just got listed: https://ebay.com/itm/403718635801?hash=item5dff818119:g:Ez8AAOSw2qFiqWkT

    More than likely one of those 1901 P's is the right graded Morgan and the other is probably an AU55 or AU58.

    You know how like an AU55 or 58 Morgan might be worth $1,000 but then that same Morgan date could be worth $4,000 in MS60 or 61, that's what they are buying the dates that jump up in value by a grade or two. So, they buy the $4,000 Morgan then buy the one or two lower grade Morgan for $1,000, switch the coins, send the original Morgan off to be regraded (99% come back same grade), when it comes back sell both and they made around $3,000.

    Remember, that even though one of the coins is a grade or two lower, most people can't tell, plus your trusting PCGS that its graded correctly even though you never would think coin had been switched and besides that you can crack open a coin and send it to PCGS 3 or 4 times and let's say it's a MS64 it might come back one of those times a MS64, MS63 or MS65.

  • @MFeld said:
    Sorry to hear about this. Did you contact EBay in order to try to get your money back?

    The images aren’t the best, but the eBay example doesn’t look like an obviously-switche> @MFeld said:
    Sorry to hear about this. Did you contact EBay in order to try to get your money back?

    The images aren’t the best, but the eBay example doesn’t look like an obviously-switched coin.

    I found out after i paid for the coin, contact ebay , gave her both links, showed her the differences, she said that i still had to receive the coin and that if it was fraudulent that i can return it and get my money back, she said i was covered. I hope i don't get screwed out of all that money.

  • lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here I think is the other thread. I didn't read it all but glanced through.
    I see the above and this might be different.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1075017/crackout-gone-horribly-wrong

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

  • The best PCGS holders are their newest ones that have i think called True View which when the coin is graded PCGS takes pictures of the coin and then puts the coin in this type of holder and all you have to do is scan the holder and then match up any toning, bag marks or chatter marks between the coin in hand and the one on PCGS verification web site.

  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can anyone tell if the ebay coin itself is real or fake? Morgans aren’t my specialty so I don’t want to act like an expert. Also, from the other auctions, doesn’t the green CAC sticker look strange?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/154985387999

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are you certain that the coin received is the one imaged on eBay? I can imagine someone photoshopping a real coin into a fake slab, and then delivering a fake in the same fake slab.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • I'd also like to point out that on all of the accounts, not only are all of their sold listings only Morgans but they are all the same type of PCGS holders.

    @1madman said:
    Can anyone tell if the ebay coin itself is real or fake? Morgans aren’t my specialty so I don’t want to act like an expert. Also, from the other auctions, doesn’t the green CAC sticker look strange?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/154985387999

    I don't know if that CAC sticker a reproduction or not but i also collect Colt's and there's fake Colt boxes, fake Colt labels, fake stickers and even fake Colt paperwork, it all comes from China. What people do is send an original and they reproduce a reproduction of as many as you want. I just didn't know about the fraud going on with certified coins until this happened.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    Are you certain that the coin received is the one imaged on eBay? I can imagine someone photoshopping a real coin into a fake slab, and then delivering a fake in the same fake slab.

    Andy, where did you get the impression that the coin might be counterfeit, rather than a lower quality, genuine example that has been switched?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 4:57AM

    @1madman said:
    Can anyone tell if the ebay coin itself is real or fake? Morgans aren’t my specialty so I don’t want to act like an expert. Also, from the other auctions, doesn’t the green CAC sticker look strange?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/154985387999

    The coin you linked looks genuine, as does the 1886-O in the original post.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka, the coin has not been received yet. Photos are from the ebay auction.

  • I haven't received the coin yet but i'm thinking the coin is going to be genuine.

  • What i thought about to was is about all the people that have gotten taken thinking they bought a truly graded coin and how many are already out there. The more of these coins get out there could also hurt PCGS because PCGS is known right now for grading coins accurately but if more people look at some of these coins in PCGS holders and say "hey there's no way that is a MS66 or whatever grade" because there are people out there that grade coins pretty accurately and they aren't graders.

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the scammer is re-submitting the real coins to PCGS, it seems that PCGS should be able to track them down. Sure, they are probably submitting the real coins through a dealer - but then the dealer can help track them down.

  • Yeah, i ask that PCGS representative if PCGS go's after these kind of people and he said "oh i don't know what go's on behind closed doors".

    There's a guy selling reproduction Colt boxes, labels and everything has been doing it for at least 10 years and everybody has contacted Colt and still Colt has not done anything and this sells on ebay and on all the firearm auctions and by the way he claims their 100% original.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 5:36AM

    Photos from the links in OPs first post in this thread. Comparing them side by side I see the ebay coin has a different barcode spacing than the GC label. Notice where the back slash lines up in the group of bars. Looks like ebay coin is probably a Fake Label.
    Ebay

    Great Collections

  • gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:

    Actually if you look closely at the serial number and bar code part of the 2 labels, they are different.
    For example look at the position of the first 1 on the serial number relative to the bars below.
    On the GC label, it is above a gap between 2 bold bars.
    On the ebay label, it is partly left of the left bold bar.

    I believe the ebay label is a fake, put in a counterfeit PCGS holder along with the lower grade coin.

    Often with fakes, they will use a valid serial number but not try to reproduce the correct bar code.
    Here both are correct, but not a match to the genuine because they didn't use a matching font size for the serial number.
    I would say the blue color fade is not a match, either, though they tried.

    Very easy to see the difference here.
    Be very careful when you buy high dollar coins on ebay or even at auction companies now.

  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭✭

    The hologram label on the back is also different. Difficult to tell since the GC sticker is there, but they are different. Just compare the bottom part of the hologram on each.

  • I'm thinking the label is original because they are reusing the label and sending the coin that was graded back to PCGS to be put in a new holder, why would they throw away a good label, they would reuse it. Besides that the coin that i bought on ebay i scanned the QR code through my computer screen and it works which makes me believe it's original and i also told the PCGS representative that too. Not unless you can counterfeit QR codes and they will scan but still they would have no need to get rid of the original label, they would just reuse it.

  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭✭

    Good luck. I hope it works out okay. I am sure it will and you will get your money back. I recently saw a seller similar to this one selling a 96S. I decided not to bid, because it looked fishy. Glad I did not. The seller had a feedback of 6 I think.

  • @Rampage said:
    Good luck. I hope it works out okay. I am sure it will and you will get your money back. I recently saw a seller similar to this one selling a 96S. I decided not to bid, because it looked fishy. Glad I did not. The seller had a feedback of 6 I think.

    Yeah, honestly when i saw this guys feedback only being 3 i was skeptical but i still did it. It's best to buy from someone with lots of feedback or if they are a dealer, or have a coin shop, coin web site or coin auctions. The only thing you still have to worry about is these coins can be sold to the people you can trust and they wont know that the coin has been swapped out either. That's why those PCGS True View holders are the best but the coin you might need may not be in that type of holder.

  • gtstanggtstang Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinAddiction said:
    I'm thinking the label is original because they are reusing the label and sending the coin that was graded back to PCGS to be put in a new holder, why would they throw away a good label, they would reuse it. Besides that the coin that i bought on ebay i scanned the QR code through my computer screen and it works which makes me believe it's original and i also told the PCGS representative that too. Not unless you can counterfeit QR codes and they will scan but still they would have no need to get rid of the original label, they would just reuse it.

    The qr code most likely can be duplicated. I'm sure it's not a perfect science. But look at the positioning of the numbers in comparison to the barcodes above.
    Hopefully you get fully refunded through ebay.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CoinAddiction thanks for posting the information on this auction. Hope this all works out for you.

    ----- kj
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,675 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinAddiction said:

    @Rampage said:
    Good luck. I hope it works out okay. I am sure it will and you will get your money back. I recently saw a seller similar to this one selling a 96S. I decided not to bid, because it looked fishy. Glad I did not. The seller had a feedback of 6 I think.

    Yeah, honestly when i saw this guys feedback only being 3 i was skeptical but i still did it. It's best to buy from someone with lots of feedback or if they are a dealer, or have a coin shop, coin web site or coin auctions.

    Thanks for posting this thread. Even the best dealers can be fooled sometimes. Most collectors don't do all the detective work like you did. They will just buy the coin, put it in a safe-deposit box for years, and when they go to sell it, find out then that there is smoething wrong, when it is too late. Good luck on your venture here.

    image
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My biggest problem with all of this is that PCGS could look at photos of the holders and agree they are the same. I would think they would immediately have said fake, in fact, I feel 100% they would have. Also, did you talk to a man or a woman at PCGS? Do you remember their name?
    Also, I don't see the profit margin for the crook. If the coin is truly an MS62 they wouldn't most likely even make a 50% return on some investment for the original coin. Now if the coin is counterfeit as well as the holder, it makes sense. Big profit.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very informative thread. @CoinAddiction Thank you for posting this information and the links.
    The scammers are getting better every day. Cheers, RickO

  • Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinAddiction - do you have the eBay coin in hand? Does it appear genuine? How would you grade it?

  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not really the topic of this thread, but the GC coin sure looks pretty beat-up for a 63. And I would think the bar would be much higher for an 86-O to get a 63 than, say, an 85-O.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @J2035 said:
    @CoinAddiction - do you have the eBay coin in hand? Does it appear genuine? How would you grade it?

    He posted previously: "I haven't received the coin yet but i'm thinking the coin is going to be genuine."

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Honestly the coin in the ebay listing looks like it could grade 63.
    I suspect a sandwich coin made from an 1886-P and (probably) 1885-O.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • stevefromnestevefromne Posts: 124 ✭✭✭

    The mintmark is different ; possibly an added "O" ??

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,995 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The OP's Morgan looks ever so slightly off. I think it is a counterfeit.

    peacockcoins

  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    The OP's Morgan looks ever so slightly off. I think it is a counterfeit.

    Then it's a really good counterfeit!

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @drei3ree said:

    @braddick said:
    The OP's Morgan looks ever so slightly off. I think it is a counterfeit.

    Then it's a really good counterfeit!

    Then it would be a fantastic one. I didn't look at it for more than a few seconds, but If that coin is counterfeit, its image fooled me.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely a fake holder and label, the coin may indeed be real but almost certainly a slider. Could be fake, but looks convincing in the picture.

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At a glance the holder looks ok, but under close inspection it’s definitely off. The counterfeiters are definitely improving. 😒

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting comparison of the 2 reverses:

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a matter of time before we have real inserts, real gaskets, fake shells.

    Buy the coin, not the holder. ;) And get your ish trueviewed!

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 786 ✭✭✭✭

    this is why PCGS needs to offer a service where they slab their old slabs, and then CAC can re-CAC it with a slightly larger sticker

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 12:53PM

    A new listing by the scammer:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/403718635801?hash=item5dff818119:g:Ez8AAOSw2qFiqWkT

    Listing of a different looking coin with the same ID number by a well known national dealer, whom I just contacted:

    https://uscoinsandjewelry.com/item-details/1901-morgan-silver-dollar-1-pcgs/25026611

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh my …

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,332 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Twenty some years ago I remember talking to a dealer in Seattle about scammers swapping U.S. gold coins around in holders ... swapping in lower grade coins into MS65 and MS66 PCGS holders. Not sure how they did this, but he said they were very good at it. Maybe the rattler holders were easier to mess with? In any event a scary situation, especially with higher end coins. I personally examine holders closely before purchasing graded coins.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.

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