Look, they just opened a new account, no feedback, same state but this time they are not showing the holders they are just putting up true view pic's. also, if you notice all of the screen names of the ebay accounts of these scammers all have a name an number(s), screen names are also similar.
Look at all the items for sale, all PCGS Morgans and all high dollar high Morgans. Wow, 13 items and all PCGS.
Look, they just opened a new account, no feedback, same state but this time they are not showing the holders they are just putting up true view pic's. also, if you notice all of the screen names of the ebay accounts of these scammers all have a name an number(s), screen names are also similar.
Look at all the items for sale, all PCGS Morgans and all high dollar high Morgans. Wow, 13 items and all PCGS.
Ebay must have shut that scammer account down which is a good thing.
Do you have a link to the new account?
Ebay closed the account so it's no longer viewable. But they had listed 13 listings all at once, all Morgan dollars and they all were True View photos.
Ebay must have shut that scammer account down which is a good thing.
Do you have a link to the new account?
Ebay closed the account so it's no longer viewable. But they had listed 13 listings all at once, all Morgan dollars and they all were True View photos.
That’s excellent news and very quick action by eBay. I reported many of the listings, and suspect others must have done that or more.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ebay must have shut that scammer account down which is a good thing.
Do you have a link to the new account?
Ebay closed the account so it's no longer viewable. But they had listed 13 listings all at once, all Morgan dollars and they all were True View photos.
That’s excellent news and very quick action by eBay. I reported many of the listings, and suspect others must have done that or more.
That's what i was thinking, you never know it may have been someone from this forum.
@lilolme said: @CoinAddiction
In your photo below the hologram appears to be flawed. Can you confirm that it is or is this a lighting thing in the photo.?
.
I believe it's a lighting thing because i took a loop and compared the hologram to an original hologram and i could not see a difference and i even compared the corners of the hologram, the font of the hologram all under a loop i couldn't see a difference which i thought the hologram would of been off.
I wish some of you guys and gals could see this holder in your hand because its that good.
Even under a loop the label paper has those little like dots (i think that is what you call them) that matched the original labels.
I hate to say it but if i did not find that picture of the original PCGS holder and Morgan dollar i probably would have just put it in my collection, boy i hate to admit that.
Thanks, I should have been more specific because a loop is not needed. This is what I was talking about. See how the letters are not visible.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@lilolme said: @CoinAddiction
In your photo below the hologram appears to be flawed. Can you confirm that it is or is this a lighting thing in the photo.?
.
I believe it's a lighting thing because i took a loop and compared the hologram to an original hologram and i could not see a difference and i even compared the corners of the hologram, the font of the hologram all under a loop i couldn't see a difference which i thought the hologram would of been off.
I wish some of you guys and gals could see this holder in your hand because its that good.
Even under a loop the label paper has those little like dots (i think that is what you call them) that matched the original labels.
I hate to say it but if i did not find that picture of the original PCGS holder and Morgan dollar i probably would have just put it in my collection, boy i hate to admit that.
Thanks, I should have been more specific because a loop is not needed. This is what I was talking about. See how the letters are not visible.
The letters are visible in person and with a loop, it's just the lighting. Now will an original hologram do the same thing if you take a picture with the same lighting and same coin position i have no idea.
This thread is sobering and worrisome. I need to be much more careful about what I buy. I admit that I've always treated anything in a PCGS or NGC or ANACS slab as essentially valid and unquestionable.
Granted I'm usually buying coins for several hundred dollars as opposed to several thousand, but this is all still quite disturbing.
Separately: why is anyone paying $1500 for an ASE? Do people pay even more for those? I should get some of mine certified, I suppose.
I'll just say I'm a big fan of PCGS Cert Verification's TrueViews and links to auctions with photos like Heritage and Stack's. I wish Cert Verification could link to GreatCollections but I understand the reasons it cannot be done.
This 1951-S Franklin Half Dollar PCGS MS-66+ FL CAC was sold by the same seller on eBay that sold Burfle23's friend a bad 1941 S. Looks like the same seller that sold all the fakes in PCGS holders in this thread as the photos and background appear the same. The eBay link to sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/403720334762?hash=item5dff9b6daa:g:~9gAAOSw7p5iqoA-
@burfle23 said:
The placement of the bean relative to the bottom of the "L" looks just off:
I believe this is just a different angle of the two photos. The one on the right I believe is taken with the camera axis slightly below (meaning 6 o/c) the coin and looking up at it. This is causing a shift in the bean on the surface of the slab relative to the label below it. This can also be seen by looking at the top (12 o/c) and bottom (6 o/c) where there round ring interfaces with the horizontal slab lines. They are slightly different. The one on the right you can see more of the horizontal line at the bottom and less at the top (notice the ring almost goes to the label) when compared to the one on the left.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I agree with the angle of the camera could make the sticker position look slightly different. One thing that I did notice on the CAC sticker is that the hologram show up different on the 1951 S, than photos of other CAC coins at GC. If the PCGS plastic is fake, it would not surprise me that the sticker is fake.
@CoinAddiction said:
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
That is a genuine 1886 obverse.
It is also a genuine reverse from New Orleans.
But, the problem is, the reverse is the C4 hub type which was used only from 1901-1904.
So it is an 1886 (Philadelphia) obverse mated to a 1901-1904 (O-mint) reverse.
A genuine 1886-O would have the C3 reverse (which was used from 1879-1901 on New Orleans Morgan Dollars).
@CoinAddiction said:
So this is what happened to me, I bought this PCGS 1886-O Morgan MS63 on ebay and after i paid for it i thought i had got an okay deal. I then went looking at sold listings and one web site i went to was Greatcollections on their archive of sold listings, upon looking i had found the same PCGS holder and certification # so i thought wow i can see what this coin sold for in 2016, but upon looking at the coin on Greatcollections i noticed it looked nothing like the one i just bought on ebay, so then i checked the certification #'s like three times to make sure it matched the one i bought on ebay and it did, so then i knew something was going on here because PCGS does not give two coins the same certification #.
One thing I like about Heritage and Stack's is that their historical auction listings are linked from PCGS Cert Verification so it's easy to see their photos as well.
I understand GC has reason for not wanting their auction lots to be linked from PCGS, which is their decision. Just something to think about when buying a coin and looking it up on Cert Verification.
@CoinAddiction said:
Here's what the scammers are doing: So i asked the person at PCGS, why would someone switch out a perfectly good coin and how would they gain from doing this? He said what their doing is buying a high dollar PCGS graded coin, then the scammers buy the same coin but they buy a grade or two lesser then the higher graded coin, then they open the holder carefully (because there is a way apparently) and switch the coins out, then they send the high dollar PCGS graded coin back to PCGS to be graded again and 99% of the time it will come back the same grade, then they take the lower graded coin and sale it in an original PCGS holder and label and then make $2,000-$5,000 or more and when they get the regraded coin back they sell it too or they keep it and get a free coin.
Is it only older holders that can be opened?
PCGS says their newer holders are tamper-evident. The following is from 2015:
PCGS said: Proprietary polymer formula with embedded PCGS identifiers: Made from a new blend of crystal-clear, scratch-resistant plastic that's tested to be 99.99% chemically-inert. The chemical formula contains PCGS-specific additives that can be detected using a special handheld device. These sturdier, tamper-evident holders have no edge seam, are virtually airtight and will provide even more protection against potential environmental damage to coins.
@CoinAddiction said:
Ebay must have shut that scammer account down which is a good thing.
Do you have a link to the new account?
Ebay closed the account so it's no longer viewable. But they had listed 13 listings all at once, all Morgan dollars and they all were True View photos.
Did the lots also have slab photos? Of course, the slab photos could be lifted from others as well, and could even be their originals if the seller is opening genuine slabs as in the OP.
@CoinAddiction said:
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
That is a genuine 1886 obverse.
It is also a genuine reverse from New Orleans.
But, the problem is, the reverse is the C4 hub type which was used only from 1901-1904.
So it is an 1886 (Philadelphia) obverse mated to a 1901-1904 (O-mint) reverse.
A genuine 1886-O would have the C3 reverse (which was used from 1879-1901 on New Orleans Morgan Dollars).
Holy crap, so we have a Philly 1886 sandwiched with a New Orleans from 01,02, or 04? How can that be done without it being obvious? Can the OP see evidence of this on the edge?
@MFeld said:
Sorry to hear about this. Did you contact EBay in order to try to get your money back?
The images aren’t the best, but the eBay example doesn’t look like an obviously-switched coin.
One of my customers bought a fake PCGS/CAC coin on ebay. Ebay did not care one bit it was fake, was told to return for a refund. Ebay simply does not care about fakes or fraud anymore.
@CoinAddiction said:
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
That is a genuine 1886 obverse.
It is also a genuine reverse from New Orleans.
But, the problem is, the reverse is the C4 hub type which was used only from 1901-1904.
So it is an 1886 (Philadelphia) obverse mated to a 1901-1904 (O-mint) reverse.
A genuine 1886-O would have the C3 reverse (which was used from 1879-1901 on New Orleans Morgan Dollars).
Holy crap, so we have a Philly 1886 sandwiched with a New Orleans from 01,02, or 04? How can that be done without it being obvious? Can the OP see evidence of this on the edge?
If they have a lathe, it could be done like one of those "magician" coins. the seam might show on the edge, or near the rim on the obverse or reverse.
@CoinAddiction said:
I received this coin in today and i took better pictures of the coin and holder but as of right now i can not tell a difference if the holder or label is fake. I even scanned the barcode and the QR code and i mean both scanned right away. I'm still going to get one of my other PCGS holders that is just like this one to compare.
I did start an ebay return and in the message i told the seller everything and provided both pictures. He excepted the return but he did not reply about what was going on. Wouldn't you think that he would reply or maybe he wouldn't reply because he knows what is going on?
That is a genuine 1886 obverse.
It is also a genuine reverse from New Orleans.
But, the problem is, the reverse is the C4 hub type which was used only from 1901-1904.
So it is an 1886 (Philadelphia) obverse mated to a 1901-1904 (O-mint) reverse.
A genuine 1886-O would have the C3 reverse (which was used from 1879-1901 on New Orleans Morgan Dollars).
Holy crap, so we have a Philly 1886 sandwiched with a New Orleans from 01,02, or 04? How can that be done without it being obvious? Can the OP see evidence of this on the edge?
If they have a lathe, it could be done like one of those "magician" coins. the seam might show on the edge, or near the rim on the obverse or reverse.
That is what I was thinking it could be (magician coin). Here is a previous video I posted on magician coin and unrelated to any thinking about fakes.
The person in the video claims it takes a 10X glass to find the edge. Don't know if that is true but if someone was wanting to do a fake coin, then they could take extra steps to make sure the machining was at it's very best. Also they could possibly mechanically 'seal' the seam.
Or based off the recent thread from @Aspie_Rocco on laser coins and the information about laser I and others posted there, I wonder if the seam could be laser sealed.
PCGS said: Proprietary polymer formula with embedded PCGS identifiers: Made from a new blend of crystal-clear, scratch-resistant plastic that's tested to be 99.99% chemically-inert. The chemical formula contains PCGS-specific additives that can be detected using a special handheld device. These sturdier, tamper-evident holders have no edge seam, are virtually airtight and will provide even more protection against potential environmental damage to coins.
I, as a new comer, am curious about this... This was obviously an elaborate switch fraud... Now I'm wondering how safe are these coins really? If it's only older holders, this makes me think maybe I should stick to newer holders? What if the op never saw the gc ad... He would end up with a fake coin.
What does one do to protect themselves against this, especially when photos can be faked (and I've seen a lot of 1886-o's with obv. photoshopped images lately in raw form), and they can link to a real pcgs database.
Comments
Link was removed...
ifthevamzarockin, here's a picture of the reverse. I hope it's better for you.
Ebay must have shut that scammer account down which is a good thing.
Do you have a link to the new account?
Ebay closed the account so it's no longer viewable. But they had listed 13 listings all at once, all Morgan dollars and they all were True View photos.
That’s excellent news and very quick action by eBay. I reported many of the listings, and suspect others must have done that or more.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's what i was thinking, you never know it may have been someone from this forum.
Coinaddication,
How were you able to determine the following eBay sellers were the same?
virueg 0, catper-53, morkov-2.
gerdur57 too...
The following coins were also sold by catper-53 (same seller that sold the fake 1901 Morgan) on eBay:
Here is the Peace Dollar counterfeit that seller catper-53 sold on eBay 6/8/22
Genuine example below that sold at GC
This counterfeit below sold by seller catper-53 on eBay 5/18/22
Genuine example below sold at GC
Very good! Yes it's a Vam 21 obverse.
Thanks, I should have been more specific because a loop is not needed. This is what I was talking about. See how the letters are not visible.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
The letters are visible in person and with a loop, it's just the lighting. Now will an original hologram do the same thing if you take a picture with the same lighting and same coin position i have no idea.
Latest; a friend purchased the bad 1941-S:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_sabdhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=45322&_sargn=-1&saslc=1&_salic=1&_fss=1&_fsradio=&LH_SpecificSeller=1&_saslop=1&_sasl=886goodluck&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=60&_fosrp=1
This thread is sobering and worrisome. I need to be much more careful about what I buy. I admit that I've always treated anything in a PCGS or NGC or ANACS slab as essentially valid and unquestionable.
Granted I'm usually buying coins for several hundred dollars as opposed to several thousand, but this is all still quite disturbing.
Separately: why is anyone paying $1500 for an ASE? Do people pay even more for those? I should get some of mine certified, I suppose.
I'll just say I'm a big fan of PCGS Cert Verification's TrueViews and links to auctions with photos like Heritage and Stack's. I wish Cert Verification could link to GreatCollections but I understand the reasons it cannot be done.
This 1951-S Franklin Half Dollar PCGS MS-66+ FL CAC was sold by the same seller on eBay that sold Burfle23's friend a bad 1941 S. Looks like the same seller that sold all the fakes in PCGS holders in this thread as the photos and background appear the same. The eBay link to sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/403720334762?hash=item5dff9b6daa:g:~9gAAOSw7p5iqoA-
The same coin and holder is now for sale at Great Collections. I am not a 100% sure that the holder and coin is a fake. Ian at GC needs to take a hard look at the coin. GC Link to coin: https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1196273/1951-S-Franklin-Half-Dollar-PCGS-MS-66-FL-CAC
If anyone can notice anything on the holder or coin that looks off, please comment.
The placement of the bean relative to the bottom of the "L" looks just off:
@ianrussell please have a look at the Franklin Half Dollar posts above.
Comparing the obverse images it is the same coin:
The mark below the "L" is identical so it's the same coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I believe this is just a different angle of the two photos. The one on the right I believe is taken with the camera axis slightly below (meaning 6 o/c) the coin and looking up at it. This is causing a shift in the bean on the surface of the slab relative to the label below it. This can also be seen by looking at the top (12 o/c) and bottom (6 o/c) where there round ring interfaces with the horizontal slab lines. They are slightly different. The one on the right you can see more of the horizontal line at the bottom and less at the top (notice the ring almost goes to the label) when compared to the one on the left.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I agree with the angle of the camera could make the sticker position look slightly different. One thing that I did notice on the CAC sticker is that the hologram show up different on the 1951 S, than photos of other CAC coins at GC. If the PCGS plastic is fake, it would not surprise me that the sticker is fake.
Does the coin look 66+ with the marks?
Something must be off with the coin as GC pulled the listing.
@ianrussell
Ian, are your able to comment on this coin and why it was pulled
We would all like an edcation
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Shame on us sometimes, buying from an Ebay seller with a 0-5 Rating. What is wrong with this picture?
That is a genuine 1886 obverse.
It is also a genuine reverse from New Orleans.
But, the problem is, the reverse is the C4 hub type which was used only from 1901-1904.
So it is an 1886 (Philadelphia) obverse mated to a 1901-1904 (O-mint) reverse.
A genuine 1886-O would have the C3 reverse (which was used from 1879-1901 on New Orleans Morgan Dollars).
Here is a photo comparison of the C3 and C4 reverses:
moonlightmint.com/VAM_privately_made/09.htm
Here is a chart showing the years that the various reverse hub types were used:
moonlightmint.com/VAM_privately_made/11.htm
@CoinAddiction Before you return the coin, contact pcgs as they may want to look at it etc...
One thing I like about Heritage and Stack's is that their historical auction listings are linked from PCGS Cert Verification so it's easy to see their photos as well.
I understand GC has reason for not wanting their auction lots to be linked from PCGS, which is their decision. Just something to think about when buying a coin and looking it up on Cert Verification.
Is it only older holders that can be opened?
PCGS says their newer holders are tamper-evident. The following is from 2015:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-introduces-superior-new-holder
Did the lots also have slab photos? Of course, the slab photos could be lifted from others as well, and could even be their originals if the seller is opening genuine slabs as in the OP.
Lots of things to be aware of.
What do you think this coin would grade? Is it a slider 58? If i has full luster it looks like a true 63 and better that the GC coin.
Holy crap, so we have a Philly 1886 sandwiched with a New Orleans from 01,02, or 04? How can that be done without it being obvious? Can the OP see evidence of this on the edge?
One of my customers bought a fake PCGS/CAC coin on ebay. Ebay did not care one bit it was fake, was told to return for a refund. Ebay simply does not care about fakes or fraud anymore.
If they have a lathe, it could be done like one of those "magician" coins. the seam might show on the edge, or near the rim on the obverse or reverse.
That is what I was thinking it could be (magician coin). Here is a previous video I posted on magician coin and unrelated to any thinking about fakes.
The person in the video claims it takes a 10X glass to find the edge. Don't know if that is true but if someone was wanting to do a fake coin, then they could take extra steps to make sure the machining was at it's very best. Also they could possibly mechanically 'seal' the seam.
Or based off the recent thread from @Aspie_Rocco on laser coins and the information about laser I and others posted there, I wonder if the seam could be laser sealed.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1079218/interesting-surface-alterations-with-laser-possible-future-of-doctoring#latest
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
@CoinAddiction can you not see the edge through the holder to see if there is a noticeable seam?
I, as a new comer, am curious about this... This was obviously an elaborate switch fraud... Now I'm wondering how safe are these coins really? If it's only older holders, this makes me think maybe I should stick to newer holders? What if the op never saw the gc ad... He would end up with a fake coin.
What does one do to protect themselves against this, especially when photos can be faked (and I've seen a lot of 1886-o's with obv. photoshopped images lately in raw form), and they can link to a real pcgs database.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin