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Thoughts on this $2.5 Indian... Grade is in... updated with Trueviews

lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 5, 2022 7:15PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Purchased a few years ago from an established board member...

Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 44,855 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a nice AU58. The rub on the cheek bone and the hairlines in the fields indicate light circulation.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a counterfeit that is pictured in United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide by Bill Fivaz. The 1925-D quarter eagle from counterfeit die pair 2 appears to match this piece.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a counterfeit. :/

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't have the coin in-hand, but I do have the book in-hand and there are a few matching points to the known counterfeit. They include the indent near the tip of the third feather from the bottom of the headdress near star 11, the star points of stars four and five falling off the edge of the coin and a dot/depression above the D in "DOLLAR" on the reverse. I don't know that it is a counterfeit, but the images look like they might match those details of the known counterfeit.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 10:41AM

    Hmmm... I was going to bring this one to our hosts at the Baltimore Whitman Coin show next week. I was hoping for AU55... now I'm just hoping it's real. :-/

    Edited to add: I thought the diagnostics for this piece were lines along the rim from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock on the obverse and again over the mint mark on the reverse.

    I'll try to get better images this evening...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's a certified 1925-D.


    And here one from my raw set, which I believe is real.


    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkenefic said:
    Hmmm... I was going to bring this one to our hosts at the Baltimore Whitman Coin show next week. I was hoping for AU55... now I'm just hoping it's real. :-/

    Edited to add: I thought the diagnostics for this piece were lines along the rim from 3 o'clock to 5 o'clock on the obverse and again over the mint mark on the reverse.

    I'll try to get better images this evening...

    Perhaps it is real. Remember, I am just going by the images you posted and then interpreting them and attempting to see if they match up in a book that has smaller images.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One hardest aspects of authentication is this "there is a repeated mark here that shows up on all of the counterfeits." First it's impossible to memorize all of that stuff for every coin and unless you have two counterfeits together, it's impossible to spot it "cold turkey" from one coin. Of course under 10X or higher glass, you might see if a mark looks like a real nick or an impression from a nick on the coin that was used to make the counterfeit die.

    I would take the coin to Baltimore, and give the ICG guys (Skip) a try if they are there. If they have the time, they will give a free opinion, and Skip is very knowledgeable. Nothing jumps out at me about that coin except that it may have been smoothed in front of the eagle's beak and neck on the reverse.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, I didn't see that coming. I hope the "established board member" is able to help here. That is why I only buy graded Pre-33 gold coins. This one looks the same as my PCGS graded 1925D.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't mind taking a look at it in Baltimore as well, if you want another opinion in-hand.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 44,855 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:
    I don't mind taking a look at it in Baltimore as well, if you want another opinion in-hand.

    Are you an expert authenticator?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If that one is truly counterfeit, it’s a good one. It got me.

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @DelawareDoons said:
    I don't mind taking a look at it in Baltimore as well, if you want another opinion in-hand.

    Are you an expert authenticator?

    I know what I'm doing.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe these were the diagnostics I came across when I was looking at $2.5 Indians more regularly... but I don't have the book...

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/812482/counterfeit-2-50-indian#pagetop

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭✭

    I’ll have to take a look at that book - sounds like a good one.

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I remember selling a 1925 to you, but don’t have my pictures anymore to see if this was the one from me. It sure looks good to me, and I can detect most counterfeit Indians, but it would be interesting to see what the pros say on this one.

  • mark_dakmark_dak Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    Looks like a counterfeit that is pictured in United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide by Bill Fivaz. The 1925-D quarter eagle from counterfeit die pair 2 appears to match this piece.

    Certainly a date to be wary of. I'm not sure I see enough in those pictures to say it's a counterfeit. Possibly see the marker near D in "DOLLAR" on the reverse and up near the headdress and feathers. My inclination is this one is OK though and what I see is picture related. I would always prefer purchasing raw with an in hand look as opposed to pictures. Won't generally purchase by picture alone. JMHO

    Also may be seeing enough hairlines in the obverse fields in front of the face and on the reverse to the left of the eagle around "In God We Trust" to suspect a previous cleaning.

    Mark

  • jomjom Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Count me as being fooled by this one....

    jom

  • mark_dakmark_dak Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkenefic said:
    I believe these were the diagnostics I came across when I was looking at $2.5 Indians more regularly... but I don't have the book...

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/812482/counterfeit-2-50-indian#pagetop

    Could be multiple sets of diagnostics for any particular coin. There's been enough low life individuals around thru the years to have more than one attempt to counterfeit the same coin.

    Mark

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @DelawareDoons said:
    I don't mind taking a look at it in Baltimore as well, if you want another opinion in-hand.

    Are you an expert authenticator?

    Maybe he stayed at a Holliday Inn Express.

    LOL.....Best post of the day!

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do see the points @TomB specified on the OP coin... and they do not appear on the subsequent authentic posted coins..... Tough call, let us know what is determined at the show. Cheers, RickO

  • KliaoKliao Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fooled me as well if it is indeed a fake. Wow.

    Young Numismatist/collector
    70 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 42 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry I was only able to reply but not help a little more, the OP's photos are in a webp format and I was unable to copy them.
    Here are a few cropped photos, let's see if this helps.
    Each of the first photos is of the OP's coin the second photo is of a 1925 D from CoinFacts

    .
    .
    Look at the dots in the headband, a few of them are lines.
    These dots show well even on circulated coins,
    There are other details in the feathers & beads that appear off if you compare the photos


    Look at the feather details on the neck & both wings.

    Look at the leg feather details on both legs.

    Look at the feather details, some areas look stronger or weaker.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The photos are far from optimal for authentication, but it appears to be genuine to me.

    There are horizontal slide marks on the obverse in the open area in front of the Native's face and neck.
    Also there is some possible wiping in the open area above E PLURIBUS.

    So my guess is that it would come back as genuine, cleaned.
    If not cleaned, then AU55.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Look at the feathers on the leg, the coin has either had details added or is not genuine.
    Please feel free to look at several other genuine examples.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It would seem a strange coincidence that these lines follow the pattern of the dots.
    Many of the other dots seem weak and these dots can be seen on lower grade coins.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2022 9:38PM

    The feathers in the neck seem to have more of a linear pattern rather than a downward flow.
    The neck feathers appear to be altered or not genuine.
    There is a void at the base of the neck that could be die fill or a strike thru but it could also indicate a problem.
    There is a die chip on the eagles beak that could just be die damage but could also indicate a problem.

    Please feel free to review the photos and draw your own conclusion.
    I am only posting what I see and I have been wrong before & I will be wrong again. ;)

    Edited to add: There are quite a few other details in all the photos that appear off if you take the time to compare.

  • WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great diagnostics going on here both pro and con.
    Can’t wait for the final verdict.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

  • JonBrand83JonBrand83 Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2022 8:50PM

    Seems ok to me. I see what you mean about the eagles neck but i attribute that to the pic and lighting etc.
    Add me to interest in the pros opinions.

    Jbknifeandcoin.com

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've been attempting to get better images but my low budget photographic set up is no match for the "coin in hand" and a skilled pair of eyes. I'll let everyone know what shakes out after submission... thanks to all that weighed in on this one. Best, Leo

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WAYNEAS said:
    Great diagnostics going on here both pro and con.
    Can’t wait for the final verdict.
    Wayne

    I concur. Excellent discussion and comparisons. Best of luck with it. I'll look forward to the results.

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hey Everyone... Just a quick update. I dropped off the coin off to our hosts for Express service while I was at the Baltimore show. I'll be waiting on the TV's for a bit, but it looks like the coin is on it's way back to me. I'll post pics when it arrives.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭

    If it's on it's way back to you then you know the grade/lack thereof?

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Relaxn said:
    If it's on it's way back to you then you know the grade/lack thereof?

    Yes... but THAT's no fun... how about a GTG? Or, in this instance... is it real, if so, what's the grade...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My gut says genuine but lightly cleaned. Hope it straight grades for you


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU details. Cleaned. Authentic.

    My guess.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 7,774 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably is real; a guy at a flea market last weekend said he bought some from a 90 year old guy and when he found out they were fake called the guy up who was told it was his own fault for buying them as real. No legal recourse in private sales probably. So next time he low balled the guy.

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭

    Nice, congrats! the real mcCoy

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting. I suppose these are the available possibilities:

    • The coin is genuine and PCGS got it right. Presumably the OP’s photos just weren’t good enough to eliminate suspicion.
    • The coin is counterfeit and PCGS missed it.

    My money is with PCGS. Nice coin. Congrats on a clean AU 58 grade. Please do post the TrueViews. There are a couple of areas that would be interesting to scrutinize.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My money is with PCGS being right, as well, and am glad that in this case I was wrong.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...going back through the posts to this thread, it looks like the very first post was in alignment with PCGS and coin in hand...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice!

    Collector, occasional seller

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats and thanks for sharing! :)

    I must admit I have been anxiously been awaiting your True Views and even checked a couple of times to see if they posted.
    When you said it graded I honestly expected to see where PCGS missed a problem coin.
    This is a great example of what a difference photos can make.
    All of the things I was seeing are gone in the True View.

    Once again I was wrong. ;)

    Please remind me to not have you take coin photos for me. :p:D

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I feel mildly vindicated. Congratulations OP.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^
    It's difficult to go up against TomB.

    peacockcoins

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