ICG coins

Bigbuck1975

I have an opportunity to buy a pretty sizable collection all graded in 1998-2000 timeline by ICG with fairly significant upside if crossed to PCGS or NGC. Coins appear fairly graded to me. Anybody with experience (good or bad) with first generation ICG holders and relative grade accuracy? I assume cracking these out and submitting raw is the best option?

coinbuf

Without seeing the coins I think you will spend a lot of money for plastic and not be able to see a return, but that is just my opinion.

291fifth

If you don't have enough confidence in your own grading ability you should pass. If you have confidence in your grading ability and have a good feel for what the major TPGs will grade the coins today then go for it.

WAYNEAS

Please be kind enough to post some pictures.
People here can help with the grading.
Wayne

TPRC

I always felt that they graded too high from the beginning. However, especially in the early days, they were overy tough on HTTs and CWTs and I have found many undergraded ICG-graded tokens. Any chance these were tokens?

PerryHall

ICG did a fairly good job on the older coins but their modern coins were generously graded.

davewesen

They started out grading heavily for the television late night groups of promoters. Their modern coins in upper MS and PR will not cross very often to PCGS. Their grading of older circulated and lower MS is very fair.

Bigbuck1975

I’ll get some photos, the coins are all 1909 VDB cents in 66/67. Price is less than half bid and the guy that has them was the original submitter and the coins came from original rolls.

ms71

Be very sensitive to your risk. Calculate how many at each grade need to be holdered by PCGS (or NGC) at what grade for you to get to least a "wash" on the buy.

ricko

Post some pictures and see if the consensus agrees with your opinion. Then, if the financial consideration is profitable, submit. Cheers, RickO

Bigbuck1975

@ms71 said:
Be very sensitive to your risk. Calculate how many at each grade need to be holdered by PCGS (or NGC) at what grade for you to achieve at least a "wash" on the buy.

I can break even by selling 2/3 of the coins as they sit in the current slabs worst case. Plan was to cover costs, pick the 10 best, the. submit and grade the rest.

It is this slab generation

coinbuf

Keep in mind that 1909 VDB cents were horded and saved in mass, there is no shortage of quality 09 VDB's so you might be sitting on the coins for a time before you can find buyers. Just at PCGS alone.

291fifth

@Bigbuck1975 said:
I’ll get some photos, the coins are all 1909 VDB cents in 66/67. Price is less than half bid and the guy that has them was the original submitter and the coins came from original rolls.

I'd be very wary of 66/67 graded Lincolns. There is a considerable downside risk if they don't cross.

jesbroken

I have a coin at PCGS now in that type holder to cross. I will post when and if it does cross.
Jim

Higashiyama

I would guess that the 1909 VDBs are very nice coins, but as others have said, the price differential between 66 and 67 is big. And, it is not easy to distinguish a nice 66 from a 67 (at least for me). Half of the 67 price may exceed the 66 price.

Bigbuck1975

@jesbroken said:
I have a coin at PCGS now in that type holder to cross. I will post when and if it does cross.
Jim

Jim - may I ask the coin you have in?

Che_Grapes

I think they were very good at grades especially older dates and better / more stringent than what people often say.

davewesen

some older stories of early Lincolns crossing - pictures are gone ...

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/6213559#Comment_6213559

jesbroken

@Bigbuck1975 said:

@jesbroken said:
I have a coin at PCGS now in that type holder to cross. I will post when and if it does cross.
Jim

Jim - may I ask the coin you have in?

1945 P Jefferson Nickel ICG MS66FS.

messydesk

@Bigbuck1975 said:
I’ll get some photos, the coins are all 1909 VDB cents in 66/67. Price is less than half bid and the guy that has them was the original submitter and the coins came from original rolls.

I don't think there is such thing as an "original roll" of 1909 cents. That concept doesn't go back further than 1934, as far as I know. Be that as it may, getting a 65 or even a 66 for half of 67 bid is not a good deal. You need to look at each coin for what it is and figure out what the deal is worth. No quick and easy answer.

As far as having them regraded, crack them out. ICG slabs will scuff if you look at them wrong, and a scuff in the wrong place is a DNC.

Bigbuck1975

C

jesbroken

Not sure what the first Lincoln Cent has on its surface on the right, but if on the coin, I do not feel it would grade very well at PCGS.
Jim

Bigbuck1975

Thanks fellas I think I have enough information to go the way I’m gonna go. Appreciate the input and will update with the direction I went.

RYK

A lot would depend on where the coins are on their respective grade-price curve. Avoid overrating the coins on the cliffs.

krueger

I took a Grading class from a few of the. ICG principles at the ANA show in Anahiem, Calif. in 1995.
They were former PCGS graders. Keith Love?? seems to come to mind.
as good a class as I have taken from others.

manlye1

Those are not 1st generation holders, if they were I would say 100% yes in MOST cases. By the time the generation(I believe 3rd) you are looking at the grading standards were becoming iffy.

Bigbuck1975

@manlye1 said:
Those are not 1st generation holders, if they were I would say 100% yes in MOST cases. By the time the generation(I believe 3rd) you are looking at the grading standards were becoming iffy.

I realized that after I had originally posted. The guy that had these graded thought they were like 1998 timeframe but based on Holders I think they were like around 2000 when the the intercept product showed up. Edited title. Thank you.

OPA

We also had an ICG grader (Cameron Kiefer) as a board member years ago. From my personal experience , Morgan and Peace $ housed in the early ICG slabs, had an above average chance to cross into PCGS holders. Not familiar with the Penny % cross. Also, from what I understand, they were tough on US gold coins.

airplanenut

I don’t know how many different coins are posted above, but at least two don’t look red to me.

Higashiyama

@airplanenut said: I don’t know how many different coins are posted above, but at least two don’t look red to me.

Yes, interesting point; based on the cert numbers, there are four district obverses, and a couple of them seem borderline RB.

(Though this may be more a reflection of that era of ICG slab than a reflection of their grading. I have a wonderful 1910 RB Lincoln in a circa 2000 PCGS slab - graded MS 66 RD; a great coin, but not red, and who knows where it may be in another 20 years!)

PerryHall

@airplanenut said:
I don’t know how many different coins are posted above, but at least two don’t look red to me.

This is why ALL major grading services don't guarantee the color designation on copper coins. Those coins that "don't look red" were probably red at the time they were slabbed.

airplanenut

@PerryHall said:

@airplanenut said:
I don’t know how many different coins are posted above, but at least two don’t look red to me.

This is why ALL major grading services don't guarantee the color designation on copper coins. Those coins that "don't look red" were probably red at the time they were slabbed.

I understand that, but if they’re going to be crossed, they’re going to be graded as they are right now, and if they go to RB, unless the color is really appealing, they’re going to drop in value as a result.

Walkerguy21D

I guess I would assume most are ms65, R&B, and make an offer accordingly. If he passes, you’re not really missing out. As others pointed out, this coin is very plentiful, in all grades from all tpg’s.
Now if it was a nice type set or collection of early walkers, I’d be more aggressive.

Bigbuck1975

@Walkerguy21D said:
I guess I would assume most are ms65, R&B, and make an offer accordingly. If he passes, you’re not really missing out. As others pointed out, this coin is very plentiful, in all grades from all tpg’s.
Now if it was a nice type set or collection of early walkers, I’d be more aggressive.

This is exactly what I did

Higashiyama

At a 65 RB price, I think any of those would make a fabulous addition to a type set.

lkenefic

I've had mixed results with that generation ICG holder. Circulated type seems to be accurately graded, but they were a bit forgiving on old cleanings/dips if the coin was starting to tone back. The MS pieces (more modern type) seemed to be a bit... generous.

Cougar1978

I have some ICG coins about 7. They are not worth enough justify slab cost. ICG is one of TPG accepted by eBay. Works for me. Nor do I think mine over-graded in any shape or form lol. As far as holder tire kickers off bourse/online trying rip me bc of holder my attitude - they can stuff it.

Like anything I price cost plus and consideration of MV (CF,CPG, etc). Not a player of the holder, sticker game and will not discount nice coins just bc of holder. Recently a really nice ANAC s MS70 Mexico 1oz Onza in its pretty yellow holder sold for $85.

If doing any possible crossover / upgrade I would specify minimum grade plus consider grading costs impact decide if even worth submit period.

vulcanize

My son was very chuffed when he came across an I Can't Grade 1964 penny in PR70 RD and he was uber optimistic. Tried to talk him out of it but would not listen, so allowed him to learn through experience.
He eventually realized his folly and got lucky since it sold for a five buck profit at 20$

Unknown

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ShaunBC5

@vulcanize
It sounds like your son did pretty great. He made a 33% profit and had a nice looking coin for awhile. Not a 70, maybe, but people on this forum would question his ethics if he got a PCGS 70 for $15 (and question his intelligence if he sold it for $20).
The market adjusts for the slab and for the coin inside it.

sedulous

Recently returned... a crossover from ICG AU55 to PCGS AU53 (#44198812):

Bigbuck1975

@Maz03 said:
Almost all ICG I see are over-graded or they let "Details" slip by. They never sell at what a PCGS or NGC graded coin does. In all honesty I be afraid to take a chance on crossing over from ICG to any of the others.

I bought a complete Morgan Dollar collection and all the key date coins were ICG graded in the intercept shield holder circa 2001 timeframe. There were two obviously cleaned coins net graded as problem free, but every other coin crossed at grade at PCGS so it can happen. Probably not the norm but they can have nice coins from time to time.

vulcanize

@Bigbuck1975 said:

@Maz03 said:
Almost all ICG I see are over-graded or they let "Details" slip by. They never sell at what a PCGS or NGC graded coin does. In all honesty I be afraid to take a chance on crossing over from ICG to any of the others.

I bought a complete Morgan Dollar collection and all the key date coins were ICG graded in the intercept shield holder circa 2001 timeframe. There were two obviously cleaned coins net graded as problem free, but every other coin crossed at grade at PCGS so it can happen. Probably not the norm but they can have nice coins from time to time.

My 1909 S IHP is graded VF-35 by ICG and may either stay the same or perhaps come down a notch at other TPG.

Unknown

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vulcanize

@Maz03 said:
@vulcanize
»
My 1909 S IHP is graded VF-35 by ICG and may either stay the same or perhaps come down a notch at other TPG.
»

I have to see a better photo of that 1909-S Indian Cent. In the pic posted that does not look VF35 at all or even VF30. The obverse looks cleaned too. Can you post a clearer photo?
Not that I think Photograde is completely accurate but try comparing it to some of the grades there.

Unfortunately, don't have it near me and these pics are from the archives plus my photography skills really suck.