1799 Bust Dollar Counterfeit: Why Coin Dealers Drink

Zoins

Here's an interesting situation:

1. Seller lists raw coin for sale (see below)
2. Detective tells Seller coin is counterfeit
3. Seller pulls coin and sends to TPG
4. TPG certifies coin as authentic!
5. Seller relists coin in TPG holder
6. Detective tells Seller TPG is wrong
7. Seller pulls coin and sends back to TPG
8. TPG says coin is counterfeit!

I'm sure this situation is rare and most times coins are caught the first time around.

eBay isn't named as the online venue here, but I do wonder when eBay's certified authentic program will cover coins?

Click through to see the detailed CoinWeek article by Jack Young @burfle23!

https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/from-the-dark-corner-an-authenticated-suspect-counterfeit-1799-bust-dollar/

291fifth

That counterfeit represents a jump in quality from what is usually seen on fake 1799 dollars.

ricko

Wow... That would fool me for sure... Of course, if buying such a coin, I would first get some expert inputs before investing that much. Cheers, RickO

Walkerguy21D

Agree with @291fifth ....though I'd still be skeptical, it's not jump off the page fake as usually seen. With some wear and pewter 'toning' added, it could be a real fooler. Scary!

WAYNEAS

Scary.
Thanks for the story and accompanying article.
Wayne
Edited to fix spelling.
W.

johnny9434

I'd like to know ebay policy on that as well

jmlanzaf

Can we show some love for the dealer? So many posters on this forum are accusing dealers of dishonesty etc.

lkenefic

Yikes! Scary indeed! I think I've seen those die breaks around the date before... does this mean that were dies actually made from a cast of a host coin? This looks struck to me... wow

Zoins

@jmlanzaf said:
Can we show some love for the dealer? So many posters on this forum are accusing dealers of dishonesty etc.

I don’t see any of that in this thread.

fluffy155

This is the most commonly seen counterfeit bust dollar and has been around for 50 years, always check 1799s for the chipped "R"!

jmlanzaf

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Can we show some love for the dealer? So many posters on this forum are accusing dealers of dishonesty etc.

I don’t see any of that in this thread.

I didn't say it was in this thread.

Zoins

@fluffy155 said:
This is the most commonly seen counterfeit bust dollar and has been around for 50 years, always check 1799s for the chipped "R"!

Wow, 50 years? I’m surprised the TPG didn’t catch it. Is there a catalog number for this, like how some counterfeits have assigned VAMs?

fluffy155

Not that I've ever seen, there aren't many convincing bust dollar fakes out there and the interest in cataloging them just doesn't rise to the level of more popular series like Morgans.

Zoins

@fluffy155 said:
Not that I've ever seen, there aren't many convincing bust dollar fakes out there and the interest in cataloging them just doesn't rise to the level of more popular series like Morgans.

Do you know how many there are or how to assemble a list? I think it would be nice to catalog for easier identification.

fluffy155

I'd certainly buy that book! No I haven't made an exhaustive study of the topic, that 1799 just shows up so often any collector of the series knows it on sight.

alefzero

That is a superb counterfeit for the BB-158/B-16 and a good choice to produce as fakes since it is not particularly rare at all and would usually not be examined in great detail. Great article. The lapping of the obverse stars looks off too for the later die state, but I may be off on that.

oih82w8

4. TPG certifies coin as authentic!

Which TPG, and are there any images of the holder with s/n?

Zoins

@oih82w8 said:
4. TPG certifies coin as authentic!

Which TPG, and are there any images of the holder with s/n?

I haven't seen any with the S/N but regarding the TPG, check out the article and see if you can figure it out.

MFeld

I think I recently saw a picture of that coin in another thread. And not initially knowing it was graded by a major grading company, thought it looked counterfeit. Then, I saw a picture of it in a holder and figured my initial impression must have been incorrect.

BryceM

Interesting that we tend to focus on grading around here. Authentication is arguably more important.

CaptHenway

Maybe not quite 50 years, but when I started at ANACS in late 1978 the first thing I did was learn counterfeit detection and this was one of the biggies back then.

alefzero

We mostly got soft on authentication since certified coins became the norm.

burfle23

Just a quick note- the "internet seller" cancelled the sale when I again questioned authenticity and sent it to the TPG. And although my latest articles do not show the labels I'm sure you can figure it out from the images.

One of my next articles is about another older fake (from Newman 1965) and several certified examples including one in an MS 63 holder until my original research article hit the internet; I now own that one raw ...

DelawareDoons

@burfle23 said:
Just a quick note- the "internet seller" cancelled the sale when I again questioned authenticity and sent it to the TPG. And although my latest articles do not show the labels I'm sure you can figure it out from the images.

One of my next articles is about another older fake (from Newman 1965) and several certified examples including one in an MS 63 holder until my original research article hit the internet; I now own that one raw ...

There really is a dearth of good, publicly available info on counterfeits. Keep publishing these articles, they're absolute gold.

pmh1nic

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Can we show some love for the dealer? So many posters on this forum are accusing dealers of dishonesty etc.

I don’t see any of that in this thread.

Some people have no ability to move on from past hurts. That carry it forward.

Beyond that, scary especially given it fooled one of the major TPG's.

pmh1nic

@burfle23 said:
Just a quick note- the "internet seller" cancelled the sale when I again questioned authenticity and sent it to the TPG. And although my latest articles do not show the labels I'm sure you can figure it out from the images.

One of my next articles is about another older fake (from Newman 1965) and several certified examples including one in an MS 63 holder until my original research article hit the internet; I now own that one raw ...

I guess I'm surprised that a dealer would accept a relatively expensive raw coin and not have it graded before reselling.

Zoins

If this isn’t a contemporary counterfeit or a modern counterfeit, should this be called a classic counterfeit?

CaptHenway

It’s modern to me…..

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:
It’s modern to me…..

I consider it materially different from the more common Far East counterfeits which I consider to be modern.

I’m assuming this is made in the US during the 70s which would make it much different from those.

CaptHenway

Made in the 70’s but we never knew where. Best guess at the time was Switzerland or northern Italy.

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:
Made in the 70’s but we never knew where. Best guess at the time was Switzerland or northern Italy.

Very interesting. Is there a book or reference covering the Swiss and Italian counterfeits? It could be interesting to read about these and the ones from Lebanon.

CaptHenway

No.

I believe that I have identified the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it.

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:
No.

I believe that I have identified the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it.

It seems like we need a book on these and perhaps some variety cataloging to capture this information if people are forgetting these now.

It’s interesting that what was well known is now like a rediscovery and it would be good to ensure this doesn’t happen.

Is there another NLG award book in you, or by Jack @burfle23, or both? What do you think of having a book to cover these with variety numbers?

lkenefic

So, as far as diagnostics go... it looks like the "R" in Liberty has a die chip on the fake that I don't see on a real one?

Here's an image of a certified piece I've been looking at. It has the die breaks above the date, but not the abnormality in the R in LIBERTY...

Elcontador

This is why we have TPGs, and why you should deal only with people you trust. This way, if this sort of thing happens to you, you will be reimbursed for the money you spent on the coin.

Years ago, I got a circulated Trade Dollar when I was in Vietnam. In my gut, I knew it was probably fake, but it was the best fake I'd seen and I didn't pay much for it. It fooled virtually everyone until someone asked if he could drop it on a concrete floor. The 'ping' was off; it was probably cast from lead, rather than .900 silver. If the counterfeiter bothered using the proper metal allocation, it would probably be sitting in a slab.

burfle23

A posted comment from a reader stated she has one; still hoping to see images!

Zoins

I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

burfle23

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

I find it difficult to go back far enough looking for older ones like this as available internet archives are limited...

silverpop

anything and everything can be faked and many fakes are very good at fooling people the old saying goes if it looks to good to be true it is

i follow that saying yeah i may have passed up some nice coins but better to be safe then sorry

CaptHenway

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

It might happen. In my time with ANACS we got in a low grade 1796 quarter with what looked like a scratch in the right field. After study I made the decision to certify it as genuine, and about a year later a duplicate showed up. I went back and started looking at auction catalogues and found that every major auction house had sold one in recent years. Oops.

I published it as a fake with the story and a few people that saw the report sent in more. Then we got one from a collector who said that the dealer who had sold it to him had seen the report and contacted him and told him to send it to us on his nickel, and if we said it was a fake he would give a full refund. It was the genuine host coin with a planchet crack that looked like a scratch on the fakes. We certified it as genuine and I wrote a very detailed letter for the owner's benefit as to why this particular piece was genuine and the others were not.

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

It might happen. In my time with ANACS we got in a low grade 1796 quarter with what looked like a scratch in the right field. After study I made the decision to certify it as genuine, and about a year later a duplicate showed up. I went back and started looking at auction catalogues and found that every major auction house had sold one in recent years. Oops.

I published it as a fake with the story and a few people that saw the report sent in more. Then we got one from a collector who said that the dealer who had sold it to him had seen the report and contacted him and told him to send it to us on his nickel, and if we said it was a fake he would give a full refund. It was the genuine host coin with a planchet crack that looked like a scratch on the fakes. We certified it as genuine and I wrote a very detailed letter for the owner's benefit as to why this particular piece was genuine and the others were not.

That's awesome Tom! What a great story and find. I'm glad the genuine one was found and identified.

I hope the owner still has your letter and will publish it some day!

mannie gray

I'm surprised the coin fooled the TPG.
Definitely a coin that "looks off" even at a quick glance.

burfle23

@CaptHenway said:

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

It might happen. In my time with ANACS we got in a low grade 1796 quarter with what looked like a scratch in the right field. After study I made the decision to certify it as genuine, and about a year later a duplicate showed up. I went back and started looking at auction catalogues and found that every major auction house had sold one in recent years. Oops.

I published it as a fake with the story and a few people that saw the report sent in more. Then we got one from a collector who said that the dealer who had sold it to him had seen the report and contacted him and told him to send it to us on his nickel, and if we said it was a fake he would give a full refund. It was the genuine host coin with a planchet crack that looked like a scratch on the fakes. We certified it as genuine and I wrote a very detailed letter for the owner's benefit as to why this particular piece was genuine and the others were not.

Cool response; saving this note in my file on that one!

Herb_T

Did the coin have the correct silver content?

CaptHenway

@Herb_T said:
Did the coin have the correct silver content?

Which coin?

burfle23

Another appeared today in my FB Group; reportedly sold for a pretty good sum.

This latest one on the left, my Dark Corner article example on the right; very good match including rim/ edge marks:

LanceNewmanOCC

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

I find it difficult to go back far enough looking for older ones like this as available internet archives are limited...

.
what methods do you use? perhaps we can help expand either width or depth of these searches?

lilolme

This new one (on the left) has a much better 'strike' or definition than the previous (on the right). Or so it appears from the images.

burfle23

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@burfle23 said:

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

@Zoins said:
I wonder if the host coins for this will be identified?

I find it difficult to go back far enough looking for older ones like this as available internet archives are limited...

.
what methods do you use? perhaps we can help expand either width or depth of these searches?

I use Worthpoint for archived eBay posts and images.

LanceNewmanOCC

@burfle23 said:
I use Worthpoint for archived eBay posts and images.

.
do you have an ebay store to use terapeak as i think it comes free with a store subscription.

not sure how well the internet archives work with specific ebay pages since listings are not publicly accessible (more or less) after a certain period of time.

of course i still have yet to ask the pertinent question, "how far back is back far enough?"

WilliamF

Scary stuff, I don't know the series that well and either one of those would have definitely had me fooled...