The last show I attended was Summer FUN, and it was very active. The dealers were doing well and were very happy, and the collectors were glad to be back too.
Things might be tough for small local shows because of the pandemic and legal issues. If Covid dies down to just another version of the flu, they will return. My local club ran a small show pre-pandemic, and it did very well.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?
I once asked a dealer what kind of coins does he collect. He told me he doesn't collect coins because then he ends up pulling out the best pieces he has purchased for his collection. Makes sense to me. My opinion is that dealer cutting out the collector by keeping the best pieces for himself is kind of uncool.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@mr1874 said: Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?
I once asked a dealer what kind of coins does he collect. He told me he doesn't collect coins because then he ends up pulling out the best pieces he has purchased for his collection. Makes sense to me. My opinion is that dealer cutting out the collector by keeping the best pieces for himself is kind of uncool.
It depends. If s dealer is actively bidding against his customer base then he endangers his relationships.
But if a dealer also collects it affirms his passion for the hobby, not just as a money making vehicle.
Either way the market will decide if the dealers actions are appropriate.
The shows I set up at are not endangered quite the contrary. None of the major players / promoter, dealers, whosaler, major area dealer, smaller dealers who use shows supplement income are jumping ship.
What this thread seems to have become is a bunch of players who have no show experience speculating about an area they really know nothing about - conjecture.
At recent show attendance stronger than I had seen in a long time. A dealer with a huge inventory of slabs from another metro area (4 cases) nice stuff was pricing about 2 dozen pieces he had just picked up from a wholesaler. A little later - I took a look at his stuff see where he was vs CPG, even how he filled out his tags, etc. Did not see any CAC but I don’t even recall seeing a single one in the bourse room that day. Many coins in the $1500 range quite a few considerably higher. Doing a mental estimate / Calc at least half a million or more on that table. The few I compared to CPG once got back to my table about 20 pct above CPG either pieces he felt PQ or maybe CPG the fall back #.
Excuse me but I like the thrill of the hunt on the bourse, the smash mouth competitive atmosphere, and being able evaluate material sight seen under a glass. Oh and of course the free doughnuts and coffee. Shows can be tough with brutal competition one has to work their angle well.
As for auction premiums, the buyer premium does figure in to my purchase calculation. My exit strategy when considering a coin is important, and high buyer's premiums leaves me with less money if I decide to auction the coins. The very concept of seller premiums are ridiculous and insulting.
@291fifth said:
The cost of attending the large shows is a major negative factor. If a collector is not wealthy there is little reason to spend the money to attend such expensive out-of-town shows. Small local shows will prosper. Collectors want to see the coins in person but they don't want to have to spend a lot of money to do so.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a revival of one day "dealer only" shows located near major airports. No need to rent the high cost venues, just have good lighting, security and enough space. No exhibits, no talks ... just business. They fly in in the morning, do their business and fly out in the evening. Think of the money this would save.
Actually, that seems to already be the model. Laura's point is well taken that without auctions that extend beyond the Thursday "dealer business day" there will continue to be even more early folding of the tables.
In my world, I cannot afford the travel expenses to attend major shows.
The cost is better spent on buying coins online.
I do agree that shows are on their way out.
There is no measurable equivalent of the satisfaction one gets of actually having a coin in hand with no picture interpretation required. You know what you are getting.
No matter what auction house you deal with, you need to know what is the maximum price that you will pay for a coin and then deduct all the add on costs. I deduct sales tax( when applicable), buyer's fees and shipping costs, even for eBay bids.
A 10% or 20% buyers fee is a mute thing for me because that fee is deducted from my max bid. Yes it lowers the amount that I can offer depending on which of the auction houses I use.
Wayne
I'm a "no show" guy. But, busier this year in a B&M than any year before, since starting in 2009. And I moved 30 miles outside the bigger town of nearly a million, into a community of less than 3000.
The fact is : "the show must go on". We have a local show on the third Sunday every month in Omaha. Home of Byron Reed, Aubrey Beebee, Hewitt Judd.
Ooops, they're all dead. Nevermind. Laura is right.
To a numismatist : change is good.
Another fact : I deal with 1,2,3, and 4 figure coins. On the A, B and C coins. ....I'm okay with A,B, or C.
And been on eBay 20 years. ( although as auctions go , their TOS are not seller friendly).
I hear what you are saying, but it is based on a lack of understanding of business. Your shoe store has a hidden 40% premium. Your grocery store has a hidden 20% premium. Your jewelry store has a hidden 80% premium. BECAUSE THEY NEED IT TO PAY THE BILLS.
I have worked retail for most of my life and totally understand mark ups.
But this 20% is detrimental to the hobby in many aspects because it is going the way of the dinosaur just like philately.
Just to give an example:
The 1882 trade dollar PR 63grade is up for grabs on heritage with current bid being 3100$ (3720$ with BP) while PCGS Price Guide Value is $3,500 and there is still got four more days to go.
It deters the younger generation from taking it up as a hobby and making an investment. Speaking from experience because my own son prefers to dabble in jewelry, shoes and soccer jerseys by flipping coins (and have to admit that he is pretty good at it) on eBay.
He is more of a dealer than a collector, but is young and probably will learn it the hard way one fine day.
So back to the point - auction houses need to stop being greedy and scale back a bit to have standardized rates like realtors, work with coin show promoters etc. because pretty soon they will find no takers either since the flippers will not get the inflated prices they spent in buying it in the first place.
The auctions were a lot more fun when the buyers’ fee was 15%. Last weekend I bid in a political items auction with a 25% buyers’ fee plus my local sales tax which puts the premium over the hammer at over 34%. People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it. It’s simply like taking a vacation, buying a meal. or any other consumption purchase. The auction house and the state takes so much that recovering you purchase price is impossible.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I like the eye ball to eye ball kind of experience that i get at a show. I used to visit with Art Kagin when he would visit Denver for the big show there. Art was a coin dealer during the Great Depression. I enjoyed hearing the stories he would tell. Don't get this kind of thing on the internet. Back in the day I was looking for Barber dimes and bought a few nice ones from Art.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
@vulcanize said:
The 1882 trade dollar PR 63grade is up for grabs on heritage with current bid being 3100$ (3720$ with BP) while PCGS Price Guide Value is $3,500 and there is still got four more days to go.
The past four 1882 PR63s sold by Heritage were all cameos and sold for $3,480, $2,760, $3,120 and $2,640. I don't see where the price guide estimate is out of line at $3,500. Anyway, the PCGS Price Guide is just a guide, not an offering of coins for sale.
@vulcanize said:
It deters the younger generation from taking it up as a hobby and making an investment.
If you're investing, there are better places to put your money than in coins.
@vulcanize said:
So back to the point - auction houses need to stop being greedy and scale back a bit to have standardized rates like realtors, work with coin show promoters etc. because pretty soon they will find no takers either since the flippers will not get the inflated prices they spent in buying it in the first place.
Different buyer's premiums are not an issue for any reasonably educated bidder, as they are accounted for in the bid. Any bidder not doing this most certainly should not be investing his money in coins.
@vulcanize said:
The 1882 trade dollar PR 63grade is up for grabs on heritage with current bid being 3100$ (3720$ with BP) while PCGS Price Guide Value is $3,500 and there is still got four more days to go.
The past four 1882 PR63s sold by Heritage were all cameos and sold for $3,480, $2,760, $3,120 and $2,640. I don't see where the price guide estimate is out of line at $3,500. Anyway, the PCGS Price Guide is just a guide, not an offering of coins for sale.
@vulcanize said:
It deters the younger generation from taking it up as a hobby and making an investment.
If you're investing, there are better places to put your money than in coins.
@vulcanize said:
So back to the point - auction houses need to stop being greedy and scale back a bit to have standardized rates like realtors, work with coin show promoters etc. because pretty soon they will find no takers either since the flippers will not get the inflated prices they spent in buying it in the first place.
Different buyer's premiums are not an issue for any reasonably educated bidder, as they are accounted for in the bid. Any bidder not doing this most certainly should not be investing his money in coins.
Agree to disagree on many aspects of the arguments.
You are entitled to your opinion and am not interested in furthering the discussion because all I wanted to make a point is that higher BP is detrimental and have done so. Really don't care if the view point is accepted or not.
@BillJones said:
The auctions were a lot more fun when the buyers’ fee was 15%. Last weekend I bid in a political items auction with a 25% buyers’ fee plus my local sales tax which puts the premium over the hammer at over 34%. People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it. It’s simply like taking a vacation, buying a meal. or any other consumption purchase. The auction house and the state takes so much that recovering you purchase price is impossible.
Thank you kind sir, this was exactly the point I was trying to communicate but guess it got lost in translation somewhere.
@MrEureka said:
I don’t expect coin shows to disappear, but I do expect some of the major shows to get smaller and shorter.
I agree with this, coupled with 291Fifth's comment re the one day airport shows.
I live relatively close to Long Beach, and attend the show whenever possible. Went to ANA when it was in Los Angeles and Orange County. Do not travel distances to attend shows.
Thanks to coin shows, I have made my contacts in the hobby / industry. I've also made some good friends. No way I would still be collecting if not for these contacts. And no way would I buy a coin unless I looked at it personally and / or someone I trust who knows what I like reviewed it for me. I have seen too many images which did not pick up carbon flecks, hairlines, did not show how a toned coin actually looks, etc.
You need to be able to see for yourself what are current grading standards, what is and is not being stickered, etc., and whether you agree with what you see. Ie, what is "market acceptable" today maybe different than what it was 20 years ago.
I had an issue awhile back when I sent in an MS 65 toned coin to CAC which did not sticker. Was told it had a weak strike. This was true, but it was minted in New Orleans, and virtually all of them have weak strikes. Would you not buy a New Orleans minted coin because it had a weak strike and did not sticker?
Per what I write above, you need to see the coin.
Saw a very nice RB copper that was 80% RD. There were specs of verdigris on the coin that I'm sure would not show up in an image.
Covid resulted in too many people at home with too much time on their hands buying coins sight unseen. It helped high end dealers and auction houses, but I don't think it helped the hobby.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@Elcontador said:
Covid resulted in too many people at home with too much time on their hands buying coins sight unseen. It helped high end dealers and auction houses, but I don't think it helped the hobby.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
I'm a "no show" guy. But, busier this year in a B&M than any year before, since starting in 2009. And I moved 30 miles outside the bigger town of nearly a million, into a community of less than 3000.
The fact is : "the show must go on". We have a local show on the third Sunday every month in Omaha. Home of Byron Reed, Aubrey Beebee, Hewitt Judd.
Ooops, they're all dead. Nevermind. Laura is right.
To a numismatist : change is good.
Another fact : I deal with 1,2,3, and 4 figure coins. On the A, B and C coins. ....I'm okay with A,B, or C.
And been on eBay 20 years. ( although as auctions go , their TOS are not seller friendly).
There are too many, and for quite a while we saw this with other hobbies I have been an avid member; tournament chess and astronomy, too many activities to even keep track of.
I know I bid a lot less with higher premiums and even regret “wins” on smaller items $$.
I recently bought a coin at $625 that was $814 net. I won’t do that again.
But to the OP - shows if they disappear will kill the residual collector market and lesser $$ coins will then not be so readily available, at least to those who want to see and hold them firsthand prior to making purchase decisions.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@BillJones said:
People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it.
Do you suppose it's possible the people you outbid are thinking the same thing about your bids?
Am sure that they are. The only people who make on those auctions are collectors who have owned this material for many years, and the auction house. Young people who are buying these pieces might make out in the long run, or they might not if their contemporaries have no interest in history.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The Hot Topics was discussing major shows, of which there are only four I believe: ANA, FUN, Long Beach, and Baltimore. These week-long shows draw the dealers who really do this for a full-time job and the well-heeled collectors who can afford $1000 in travel expenses as part of their hobby. And a few who happen to live within driving distance.
The one or two day local show booths are mostly weekend warrior or retirement job folks who set up at minimal expense for fun and maybe a little profit. Collectors in attendance are mainly average-means folks (of which there are many) who drive in.
In my opinion these are two completely different beasts. If a well-known national dealer says the former are going extinct I have no basis to disagree. I don’t see the latter disappearing any time soon.
@7Jaguars said:
I know I bid a lot less with higher premiums and even regret “wins” on smaller items $$.
I recently bought a coin at $625 that was $814 net. I won’t do that again.
But to the OP - shows if they disappear will kill the residual collector market and lesser $$ coins will then not be so readily available, at least to those who want to see and hold them firsthand prior to making purchase decisions.
Exact reasons that would turn many away from the hobby.
The new mint pricing of late is also another major factor that may very well seal the deal for so many interested but staying away.
@vulcanize said:
And many self opiniated vocalizing in patronizing and condescending tones abound in plentiful.
Edited to add:
I don't claim to be an expert of any sorts but ain't no novice either. Been collecting off and on for past four decades.
Buy within your comfort zone. That’s a good practice!
Always. That's my mantra.
Especially with my slabbed pre-1933 gold coins, have a strict rule where spot plus a nominal premium is max. that would be spent because I am a small time collector answerable to the missus and she keeps me in check
I have been to 250-300 coin shows since 1970. I have been all over the country ,to shows, from Boston to Miami to San Diego to Seattle. Business was very good at the 11 shows that I have been to since Covid started. I can not imagine not having shows.
@vulcanize said:
And many self opiniated vocalizing in patronizing and condescending tones abound in plentiful.
Edited to add:
I don't claim to be an expert of any sorts but ain't no novice either. Been collecting off and on for past four decades.
Can you be anything other than "self opinionated"? Whose opinions would I be vocalizing?
I don't know that anyone means to be patronizing. But we've had this BP debate 100 times. And some of your arguments aren't based on an understanding of how auctions and the BP works.
If you'd like to play a little game with me, let's play 10% vs. 20%. No sales tax.
A coin sells for $100 with a 10% premium. Call it scenario A.
A coin sells for $91.67 with a 20% premium. Call it scenario B.
If shows do come to an end where will I spend my $2 bills and Ike's? The old guys at the desk always love to see those. Today and two weeks ago the guy taking money instantly took singles out of his wallet to buy them. Glad to make someone happy.
@vulcanize said:
And many self opiniated vocalizing in patronizing and condescending tones abound in plentiful.
Edited to add:
I don't claim to be an expert of any sorts but ain't no novice either. Been collecting off and on for past four decades.
Can you be anything other than "self opinionated"? Whose opinions would I be vocalizing?
I don't know that anyone means to be patronizing. But we've had this BP debate 100 times. And some of your arguments aren't based on an understanding of how auctions and the BP works.
If you'd like to play a little game with me, let's play 10% vs. 20%. No sales tax.
A coin sells for $100 with a 10% premium. Call it scenario A.
A coin sells for $91.67 with a 20% premium. Call it scenario B.
Three simple questions:
Which buyer should be happier?
Which seller should be happier?
Which auction house made more money?
Per your very same definition, it would look even better with
scenario C where a coin sells for $84.61 with a 30% premium
or
scenario D where a coin sells for $78.57 with a 40% premium
and put the tight squeeze on the little collector making some fat cat grin even more on the way to the bank.
@vulcanize said:
And many self opiniated vocalizing in patronizing and condescending tones abound in plentiful.
Edited to add:
I don't claim to be an expert of any sorts but ain't no novice either. Been collecting off and on for past four decades.
Can you be anything other than "self opinionated"? Whose opinions would I be vocalizing?
I don't know that anyone means to be patronizing. But we've had this BP debate 100 times. And some of your arguments aren't based on an understanding of how auctions and the BP works.
If you'd like to play a little game with me, let's play 10% vs. 20%. No sales tax.
A coin sells for $100 with a 10% premium. Call it scenario A.
A coin sells for $91.67 with a 20% premium. Call it scenario B.
Three simple questions:
Which buyer should be happier?
Which seller should be happier?
Which auction house made more money?
Per your very same definition, it would look even better with
scenario C where a coin sells for $84.61 with a 30% premium
or
scenario D where a coin sells for $78.57 with a 40% premium
and put the tight squeeze on the little collector making some fat cat grin even more on the way to the bank.
Makes total sense doesn't it?
You haven't answered the questions.
The answer is:
Which buyer should be happier? Neither. They both paid $110.
Which seller should be happier? Unclear. How much of the BP was going to the seller? What is the seller's premium and other fees?
Which auction house made more money? Unclear because of #2.
You have said that 20% is "too much". But for some lots, the auction house is getting half or less of that amount because it is giving it to the consignor.
As a buyer, the only thing you should ever care about is the total price paid (including taxes and shipping).
As a seller, the only thing you should ever care about is the total amount paid to you.
The BP tells you nothing about the second and need not influence#1.
As a buyer, I would be fine with $84.61+30%, $78.57+40% or $55+100% as I'm paying the same amount in all cases.
As a seller, give me -100% seller's premium and I'm much better off with $55 + 100% than I am with $110 and ZERO% BP if I have to pay 10% seller's premium.
@jmlanzaf said:
As a buyer, I would be fine with $84.61+30%, $78.57+40% or $55+100% as I'm paying the same amount in all cases.
As a seller, give me -100% seller's premium and I'm much better off with $55 + 100% than I am with $110 and ZERO% BP if I have to pay 10% seller's premium.
You're doing math again. Some people here will not be happy.
As a seller, give me -100% seller's premium and I'm much better off with $55 + 100% than I am with $110 and ZERO% BP if I have to pay 10% seller's premium.
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
As a seller, give me -100% seller's premium and I'm much better off with $55 + 100% than I am with $110 and ZERO% BP if I have to pay 10% seller's premium.
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
It would be a hidden sellers premium.
GC charges a set up fee. On a $50 item, their fees are higher than HA.
I'm not sure why visibility in fees should be buyer as a bad thing.
The last show I attended was Summer FUN, and it was very active. The dealers were doing well and were very happy, and the collectors were glad to be back too.
Things might be tough for small local shows because of the pandemic and legal issues. If Covid dies down to just another version of the flu, they will return. My local club ran a small show pre-pandemic, and it did very well.
Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?
I once asked a dealer what kind of coins does he collect. He told me he doesn't collect coins because then he ends up pulling out the best pieces he has purchased for his collection. Makes sense to me. My opinion is that dealer cutting out the collector by keeping the best pieces for himself is kind of uncool.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
It depends. If s dealer is actively bidding against his customer base then he endangers his relationships.
But if a dealer also collects it affirms his passion for the hobby, not just as a money making vehicle.
Either way the market will decide if the dealers actions are appropriate.
The shows I set up at are not endangered quite the contrary. None of the major players / promoter, dealers, whosaler, major area dealer, smaller dealers who use shows supplement income are jumping ship.
What this thread seems to have become is a bunch of players who have no show experience speculating about an area they really know nothing about - conjecture.
At recent show attendance stronger than I had seen in a long time. A dealer with a huge inventory of slabs from another metro area (4 cases) nice stuff was pricing about 2 dozen pieces he had just picked up from a wholesaler. A little later - I took a look at his stuff see where he was vs CPG, even how he filled out his tags, etc. Did not see any CAC but I don’t even recall seeing a single one in the bourse room that day. Many coins in the $1500 range quite a few considerably higher. Doing a mental estimate / Calc at least half a million or more on that table. The few I compared to CPG once got back to my table about 20 pct above CPG either pieces he felt PQ or maybe CPG the fall back #.
Excuse me but I like the thrill of the hunt on the bourse, the smash mouth competitive atmosphere, and being able evaluate material sight seen under a glass. Oh and of course the free doughnuts and coffee. Shows can be tough with brutal competition one has to work their angle well.
It’s when you have to hurry along a procedure before the patient blasts off to another world… 🤣
As for auction premiums, the buyer premium does figure in to my purchase calculation. My exit strategy when considering a coin is important, and high buyer's premiums leaves me with less money if I decide to auction the coins. The very concept of seller premiums are ridiculous and insulting.
Actually, that seems to already be the model. Laura's point is well taken that without auctions that extend beyond the Thursday "dealer business day" there will continue to be even more early folding of the tables.
In my world, I cannot afford the travel expenses to attend major shows.
The cost is better spent on buying coins online.
I do agree that shows are on their way out.
There is no measurable equivalent of the satisfaction one gets of actually having a coin in hand with no picture interpretation required. You know what you are getting.
No matter what auction house you deal with, you need to know what is the maximum price that you will pay for a coin and then deduct all the add on costs. I deduct sales tax( when applicable), buyer's fees and shipping costs, even for eBay bids.
A 10% or 20% buyers fee is a mute thing for me because that fee is deducted from my max bid. Yes it lowers the amount that I can offer depending on which of the auction houses I use.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I'm a "no show" guy. But, busier this year in a B&M than any year before, since starting in 2009. And I moved 30 miles outside the bigger town of nearly a million, into a community of less than 3000.
The fact is : "the show must go on". We have a local show on the third Sunday every month in Omaha. Home of Byron Reed, Aubrey Beebee, Hewitt Judd.
Ooops, they're all dead. Nevermind.
Laura is right.
To a numismatist : change is good.
Another fact : I deal with 1,2,3, and 4 figure coins. On the A, B and C coins. ....I'm okay with A,B, or C.
And been on eBay 20 years. ( although as auctions go , their TOS are not seller friendly).
I have worked retail for most of my life and totally understand mark ups.
But this 20% is detrimental to the hobby in many aspects because it is going the way of the dinosaur just like philately.
Just to give an example:
The 1882 trade dollar PR 63grade is up for grabs on heritage with current bid being 3100$ (3720$ with BP) while PCGS Price Guide Value is $3,500 and there is still got four more days to go.
It deters the younger generation from taking it up as a hobby and making an investment. Speaking from experience because my own son prefers to dabble in jewelry, shoes and soccer jerseys by flipping coins (and have to admit that he is pretty good at it) on eBay.
He is more of a dealer than a collector, but is young and probably will learn it the hard way one fine day.
So back to the point - auction houses need to stop being greedy and scale back a bit to have standardized rates like realtors, work with coin show promoters etc. because pretty soon they will find no takers either since the flippers will not get the inflated prices they spent in buying it in the first place.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
As a collector, I buy most of my stuff online.
However, I always buy at least one nice coin, when I go to a show, to make it worthwhile and to support the dealers who came out.
Shows have become more of a social exercise for me rather than a major buying one.
I think that shows may start to have more dealer to dealer purchasing rather than dealer to collector.
Shows are still a great place to sell your duplicates, lower grades and other misfits. My 2 cents.......
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
The auctions were a lot more fun when the buyers’ fee was 15%. Last weekend I bid in a political items auction with a 25% buyers’ fee plus my local sales tax which puts the premium over the hammer at over 34%. People bid as if the hammer price is all they are paying.
I bought some stuff simply because I had never seen if offered before, but I’m buried in it. It’s simply like taking a vacation, buying a meal. or any other consumption purchase. The auction house and the state takes so much that recovering you purchase price is impossible.
I like the eye ball to eye ball kind of experience that i get at a show. I used to visit with Art Kagin when he would visit Denver for the big show there. Art was a coin dealer during the Great Depression. I enjoyed hearing the stories he would tell. Don't get this kind of thing on the internet. Back in the day I was looking for Barber dimes and bought a few nice ones from Art.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The past four 1882 PR63s sold by Heritage were all cameos and sold for $3,480, $2,760, $3,120 and $2,640. I don't see where the price guide estimate is out of line at $3,500. Anyway, the PCGS Price Guide is just a guide, not an offering of coins for sale.
If you're investing, there are better places to put your money than in coins.
Different buyer's premiums are not an issue for any reasonably educated bidder, as they are accounted for in the bid. Any bidder not doing this most certainly should not be investing his money in coins.
Agree to disagree on many aspects of the arguments.
You are entitled to your opinion and am not interested in furthering the discussion because all I wanted to make a point is that higher BP is detrimental and have done so. Really don't care if the view point is accepted or not.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Thank you kind sir, this was exactly the point I was trying to communicate but guess it got lost in translation somewhere.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I agree with this, coupled with 291Fifth's comment re the one day airport shows.
I live relatively close to Long Beach, and attend the show whenever possible. Went to ANA when it was in Los Angeles and Orange County. Do not travel distances to attend shows.
Thanks to coin shows, I have made my contacts in the hobby / industry. I've also made some good friends. No way I would still be collecting if not for these contacts. And no way would I buy a coin unless I looked at it personally and / or someone I trust who knows what I like reviewed it for me. I have seen too many images which did not pick up carbon flecks, hairlines, did not show how a toned coin actually looks, etc.
You need to be able to see for yourself what are current grading standards, what is and is not being stickered, etc., and whether you agree with what you see. Ie, what is "market acceptable" today maybe different than what it was 20 years ago.
I had an issue awhile back when I sent in an MS 65 toned coin to CAC which did not sticker. Was told it had a weak strike. This was true, but it was minted in New Orleans, and virtually all of them have weak strikes. Would you not buy a New Orleans minted coin because it had a weak strike and did not sticker?
Per what I write above, you need to see the coin.
Saw a very nice RB copper that was 80% RD. There were specs of verdigris on the coin that I'm sure would not show up in an image.
Covid resulted in too many people at home with too much time on their hands buying coins sight unseen. It helped high end dealers and auction houses, but I don't think it helped the hobby.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Precisely.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Do you suppose it's possible the people you outbid are thinking the same thing about your bids?
Glad to hear business is good for your B&M!
There are too many, and for quite a while we saw this with other hobbies I have been an avid member; tournament chess and astronomy, too many activities to even keep track of.
I know I bid a lot less with higher premiums and even regret “wins” on smaller items $$.
I recently bought a coin at $625 that was $814 net. I won’t do that again.
But to the OP - shows if they disappear will kill the residual collector market and lesser $$ coins will then not be so readily available, at least to those who want to see and hold them firsthand prior to making purchase decisions.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Am sure that they are. The only people who make on those auctions are collectors who have owned this material for many years, and the auction house. Young people who are buying these pieces might make out in the long run, or they might not if their contemporaries have no interest in history.
The Hot Topics was discussing major shows, of which there are only four I believe: ANA, FUN, Long Beach, and Baltimore. These week-long shows draw the dealers who really do this for a full-time job and the well-heeled collectors who can afford $1000 in travel expenses as part of their hobby. And a few who happen to live within driving distance.
The one or two day local show booths are mostly weekend warrior or retirement job folks who set up at minimal expense for fun and maybe a little profit. Collectors in attendance are mainly average-means folks (of which there are many) who drive in.
In my opinion these are two completely different beasts. If a well-known national dealer says the former are going extinct I have no basis to disagree. I don’t see the latter disappearing any time soon.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Well- if you're paying those prices and they're paying those prices, maybe those prices are current market prices.
Save your money, go to a show and enjoy the day. If you can't find your type of coins, go to a bigger show.
On another thread, a guy asks... ' Where's the best place to buy coins?'.
A) when you are looking at them.
Everyone here is smarter than the market. Haven't you noticed?
Seems like it sometimes. Buyers fees seem to be confusing a few, though.
And many self opiniated vocalizing in patronizing and condescending tones abound in plentiful.
Edited to add:
I don't claim to be an expert of any sorts but ain't no novice either. Been collecting off and on for past four decades.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Exact reasons that would turn many away from the hobby.
The new mint pricing of late is also another major factor that may very well seal the deal for so many interested but staying away.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Buy within your comfort zone. That’s a good practice!
Always. That's my mantra.
Especially with my slabbed pre-1933 gold coins, have a strict rule where spot plus a nominal premium is max. that would be spent because I am a small time collector answerable to the missus and she keeps me in check
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I have been to 250-300 coin shows since 1970. I have been all over the country ,to shows, from Boston to Miami to San Diego to Seattle. Business was very good at the 11 shows that I have been to since Covid started. I can not imagine not having shows.
I’m glad that the auction houses went from 17.5% to 20%. Makes the math easier on the fly when buying.
Latin American Collection
It would appear some people don't bother to do this and would prefer to complain afterwards about the fees.
Can you be anything other than "self opinionated"? Whose opinions would I be vocalizing?
I don't know that anyone means to be patronizing. But we've had this BP debate 100 times. And some of your arguments aren't based on an understanding of how auctions and the BP works.
If you'd like to play a little game with me, let's play 10% vs. 20%. No sales tax.
A coin sells for $100 with a 10% premium. Call it scenario A.
A coin sells for $91.67 with a 20% premium. Call it scenario B.
Three simple questions:
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I'm sorry, I was assured there'd be no math here.
If shows do come to an end where will I spend my $2 bills and Ike's? The old guys at the desk always love to see those. Today and two weeks ago the guy taking money instantly took singles out of his wallet to buy them. Glad to make someone happy.
Successful BST with BustDMs , Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino (CBH's - 35 Die Marriage's)
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Not really with TrueView and dealers getting better and better with pics.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Per your very same definition, it would look even better with
scenario C where a coin sells for $84.61 with a 30% premium
or
scenario D where a coin sells for $78.57 with a 40% premium
and put the tight squeeze on the little collector making some fat cat grin even more on the way to the bank.
Makes total sense doesn't it?
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
You haven't answered the questions.
The answer is:
You have said that 20% is "too much". But for some lots, the auction house is getting half or less of that amount because it is giving it to the consignor.
As a buyer, the only thing you should ever care about is the total price paid (including taxes and shipping).
As a seller, the only thing you should ever care about is the total amount paid to you.
The BP tells you nothing about the second and need not influence#1.
As a buyer, I would be fine with $84.61+30%, $78.57+40% or $55+100% as I'm paying the same amount in all cases.
As a seller, give me -100% seller's premium and I'm much better off with $55 + 100% than I am with $110 and ZERO% BP if I have to pay 10% seller's premium.
You're doing math again. Some people here will not be happy.
Pointless to argue with him on something he chooses to remain ignorant about.
Latin American Collection
As a general rule, it's easier to deal with the world the way it is than to insist that it be the way you think it should be.
And this is where the greed shows because a 20% is levied from the buyer and the seller gets shafted too.
Following is taken from https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s
Price of the coin Fee Percentage
Less than $2500 10% (minimum fee $25)
$2,500-$4,999 9 %
$5,000-$9,999 8 %
$10,000-$24,999 7 %
$25,000-$99,999 6 %
$100,000-$499,999 5 %
$500,000-$999,999 4%
$1,000,000 & up 3%
If the scenario B for item as per your own example cost 110$ for the buyer with 20% BP of 18.33$ plus what the seller has to pay, it effectively means both the buyer and seller are shelling out way too much to the middleman.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
.> @vulcanize said:
Unless I’m mistaken, the “Virtual Bourse” from the link that you provided is not an auction platform and there’s no buyer’s premium involved. The owner of the coin sets his/her ask price and pays a fixed % fee if the coin sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Take another example of https://www.amrcoins.com/information-and-articles/where-to-sell-your-coins/ from across the pond.
And discussed here before too.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987026/why-do-people-consign-coins-to-auction-houses
So my broaching the topic is not going to make any difference, but merely wanted to point out the obvious.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091