Are Coin Shows Endangered? Legend Hot Topic

Catbert

I think she makes some good points here:

"ARE COIN SHOWS ENDANGERED?

It is my strong opinion, very few MAJOR shows will survive as more then dealer to dealer wholesale wholesale venues. FUN and ANA may be the only big shows to survive intact as “go to” major shows. Baltimore and Long Beach could suffer badly. The CSNS show has new management and it remains to be seen if it will survive. I LOVE shows like the PCGS Invitationals and I think smaller local shows will survive and even thrive.

We witnessed a transition from shows to auctions during the pandemic. Most auction companies sales doubled or more during that time and have not fallen. The new breed of coin buyer does not go to shows or live auctions. The ANA Show in Chicago was empty of collectors. Beside the covid thing, the auction companies chose NOT to hold their sales during the ANA show. Now at Long Beach Heritage is holding their sale in their offices a week later. Stacks just built an incredible studio in its offices for beaming auctions. Show promotors should be worried. The promoters badly need the auction fees to subsidize their shows.

My personal opinion, save the flavor of coin buying! When I started Legend Auctions I wanted to boutique company attached to a show. I thought hard and I approached Don Willis at PCGS. A partnership was formed. I have no regrets and I have no regrets paying much more for the rights for a few more years like I just did. I can’t see doing a sale the following week.

The old format really burnt me and other dealers out trying to work a show then sit until midnight doing a sale. The sales just grew too big. I guess the trend has started for the bigger shows you won’t be seeing many more on site auctions. Auction companies do not need shows anymore. That was proven with the first two Simpson Sales. Have the coins and they will bid. There was no lot viewing and no live in person bidding for those sales. Collectors still flocked to bid in record numbers yielding record prices. I dunno what can be done to shows to save themselves at this point. A severe lack of coins isn’t helping either. While I struggled to survive the grueling schedules of a show with an auction, I feel something is sorely missing not having a live auction at a major show. At FUN and ANA where the biggest sales were held, I remember big rooms nearly filled to capacity with bidders. There was excitement-especially when a big ticket coin was sold. I think auctions brought collectors out. My goodness, can’t these companies at least do one premium night?

This is just how I see it all. Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now. I’d bet auction catalogs are the next thing to disappear. But then with out 3rd party grading, the internet, and auctions, the rare coin market would never be as huge as it is today. Shows are now an after thought."

https://legendnumismatics.com/hot_topics/coin-shows-today/

bronzemat

I stopped going to coin shows several years ago. I would usually go with about $500 to spend, which is significant for me and I go in and mind as well be going in with 5 cents instead.

Plus I just seem to get better deals online, whether it's from dealers, ebay, or collector to collector, even Instagram I get some great additions.

As for the mentioned auctions, it's out of my wheelhouse.

pcgscacgold

Maybe the multi-day, high table cost shows are in trouble but the area shows I attend have a lot of raw coin customers. Hard to move that to online. The show I went to two weeks ago was mainly bullion and raw coin buyers. I started a thread on a show that is tomorrow and so far nobody from here said they were going. I suspect it will once again be a raw coin buyer show.

I hope the shows do not go away. It is always fun to see things that are out there and to make connections.

291fifth

The cost of attending the large shows is a major negative factor. If a collector is not wealthy there is little reason to spend the money to attend such expensive out-of-town shows. Small local shows will prosper. Collectors want to see the coins in person but they don't want to have to spend a lot of money to do so.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a revival of one day "dealer only" shows located near major airports. No need to rent the high cost venues, just have good lighting, security and enough space. No exhibits, no talks ... just business. They fly in in the morning, do their business and fly out in the evening. Think of the money this would save.

FrankH

Local shows will survive. Just the normal day-to-day activities at coin shops will provide new material.
Large shows may be fewer. The hassle of parking and lugging quantities of coins around hotels and convention centers is a big factor.
Add in the new hurdles from covid and.....well...... dealers may put up with it.

bidask

I like going to all coin shows and the larger shows offer a chance too see coins in hand for auction as well .

Could I fly to heritage or Stack’s headquarters to view auction lots ?
Guess I could ….but why not take in a show as well 😀

TurtleCat

I agree with @291fifth. For many of us the costs of getting to major shows just isn’t worth it. Factor in those of us who also still have young children, jobs, and such and the opportunity just isn’t there unless you happen to live close by.

BryceM

There are some things that can only happen at shows. Camaraderie. Lot viewing (unless you want to go to the auction house HQ), actually getting to know dealers. You can talk to them a hundred times on the phone and still not know things you pick up on in 5 minutes of face-to-face conversation.

No matter how much photography & videography improve, it’s still not like seeing a coin in-hand.

It’s hard to pick out the top 5% of what’s out there if you never get a chance to simply see & review thousands of coins, up close & personal.

skier07

@BryceM said:
There are some things that can only happen at shows. Camaraderie. Lot viewing (unless you want to go to the auction house HQ), actually getting to know dealers. You can talk to them a hundred times on the phone and still not know things you pick up on in 5 minutes of face-to-face conversation.

No matter how much photography & videography improve, it’s still not like seeing a coin in-hand.

It’s hard to pick out the top 5% of what’s out there if you never get a chance to simply see & review thousands of coins, up close & personal.

+1

There’s nothing like lot viewing at a major show. You get to look at multiple coins in PCGS and NGC holders with and without stickers and formulate your own opinions. Online photos are much better today but there’s nothing like looking at a coin when it’s right in front of you in your own hands.

Networking with dealers, fellow collectors, and the folks you consign with is best done in person at a major show.

I envision major shows will be around for a long time but there will be fewer of them moving forward.

cameonut2011

@Catbert said:
I think she makes some good points here:

"ARE COIN SHOWS ENDANGERED?

It is my strong opinion, very few MAJOR shows will survive as more then dealer to dealer wholesale wholesale venues. FUN and ANA may be the only big shows to survive intact as “go to” major shows. Baltimore and Long Beach could suffer badly. The CSNS show has new management and it remains to be seen if it will survive. I LOVE shows like the PCGS Invitationals and I think smaller local shows will survive and even thrive.

We witnessed a transition from shows to auctions during the pandemic. Most auction companies sales doubled or more during that time and have not fallen. The new breed of coin buyer does not go to shows or live auctions. The ANA Show in Chicago was empty of collectors. Beside the covid thing, the auction companies chose NOT to hold their sales during the ANA show. Now at Long Beach Heritage is holding their sale in their offices a week later. Stacks just built an incredible studio in its offices for beaming auctions. Show promotors should be worried. The promoters badly need the auction fees to subsidize their shows.

My personal opinion, save the flavor of coin buying! When I started Legend Auctions I wanted to boutique company attached to a show. I thought hard and I approached Don Willis at PCGS. A partnership was formed. I have no regrets and I have no regrets paying much more for the rights for a few more years like I just did. I can’t see doing a sale the following week.

The old format really burnt me and other dealers out trying to work a show then sit until midnight doing a sale. The sales just grew too big. I guess the trend has started for the bigger shows you won’t be seeing many more on site auctions. Auction companies do not need shows anymore. That was proven with the first two Simpson Sales. Have the coins and they will bid. There was no lot viewing and no live in person bidding for those sales. Collectors still flocked to bid in record numbers yielding record prices. I dunno what can be done to shows to save themselves at this point. A severe lack of coins isn’t helping either. While I struggled to survive the grueling schedules of a show with an auction, I feel something is sorely missing not having a live auction at a major show. At FUN and ANA where the biggest sales were held, I remember big rooms nearly filled to capacity with bidders. There was excitement-especially when a big ticket coin was sold. I think auctions brought collectors out. My goodness, can’t these companies at least do one premium night?

This is just how I see it all. Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now. I’d bet auction catalogs are the next thing to disappear. But then with out 3rd party grading, the internet, and auctions, the rare coin market would never be as huge as it is today. Shows are now an after thought."

https://legendnumismatics.com/hot_topics/coin-shows-today/

I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Zoins

@cameonut2011 said:

@Catbert said:
I think she makes some good points here:

"ARE COIN SHOWS ENDANGERED?

It is my strong opinion, very few MAJOR shows will survive as more then dealer to dealer wholesale wholesale venues. FUN and ANA may be the only big shows to survive intact as “go to” major shows. Baltimore and Long Beach could suffer badly. The CSNS show has new management and it remains to be seen if it will survive. I LOVE shows like the PCGS Invitationals and I think smaller local shows will survive and even thrive.

We witnessed a transition from shows to auctions during the pandemic. Most auction companies sales doubled or more during that time and have not fallen. The new breed of coin buyer does not go to shows or live auctions. The ANA Show in Chicago was empty of collectors. Beside the covid thing, the auction companies chose NOT to hold their sales during the ANA show. Now at Long Beach Heritage is holding their sale in their offices a week later. Stacks just built an incredible studio in its offices for beaming auctions. Show promotors should be worried. The promoters badly need the auction fees to subsidize their shows.

My personal opinion, save the flavor of coin buying! When I started Legend Auctions I wanted to boutique company attached to a show. I thought hard and I approached Don Willis at PCGS. A partnership was formed. I have no regrets and I have no regrets paying much more for the rights for a few more years like I just did. I can’t see doing a sale the following week.

The old format really burnt me and other dealers out trying to work a show then sit until midnight doing a sale. The sales just grew too big. I guess the trend has started for the bigger shows you won’t be seeing many more on site auctions. Auction companies do not need shows anymore. That was proven with the first two Simpson Sales. Have the coins and they will bid. There was no lot viewing and no live in person bidding for those sales. Collectors still flocked to bid in record numbers yielding record prices. I dunno what can be done to shows to save themselves at this point. A severe lack of coins isn’t helping either. While I struggled to survive the grueling schedules of a show with an auction, I feel something is sorely missing not having a live auction at a major show. At FUN and ANA where the biggest sales were held, I remember big rooms nearly filled to capacity with bidders. There was excitement-especially when a big ticket coin was sold. I think auctions brought collectors out. My goodness, can’t these companies at least do one premium night?

This is just how I see it all. Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now. I’d bet auction catalogs are the next thing to disappear. But then with out 3rd party grading, the internet, and auctions, the rare coin market would never be as huge as it is today. Shows are now an after thought."

https://legendnumismatics.com/hot_topics/coin-shows-today/

I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?

Jzyskowski1

I have never been to a coin show. I hope to tourist visit one. I have collected for a long time. Just got too busy I guess. More time now so I hope to make it to a good one. Maybe a new thread someday.

coinandcurrency242

The peoblem with shows is renting a booth and your customers are only the people that come to the show. Some dealers team up together to share a boith and split the cost. With covid hitting, it has made alot of people go to an online store. Allows you to reach more people without the need for over head. Traveling for shows to include hotel and the booths adds up and cuts into profits quickly. I do see the online coin market increasing in popularity.

cameonut2011

@Zoins said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?

It’s certainly not a perfect correlation/effect, but I think it is much harder to be a successful coin dealer now than it was 15+ years ago. I think it will only get worse if her observation is correct. If there are fewer shows and people are increasingly turning to auctions to dispose of coins, dealers are forced to compete with collectors directly even more than they do now. Margins will grow even slimmer. At some point it isn’t worth it to stay in business anymore.

cameonut2011

@Catbert said:

This is just how I see it all. Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now. I’d bet auction catalogs are the next thing to disappear. But then with out 3rd party grading, the internet, and auctions, the rare coin market would never be as huge as it is today. Shows are now an after thought."

>

I’m surprised that auction catalogs have survived this long. A CAC sticker on a PCGS slab is hyped by many to be the end all, be all in the U.S. coin market. You have to wonder how many of those collectors look beyond the label and sticker to the coin itself much less an auction description. Ironically the state of sight unseen bidding she loathes is a direct product of her two favorite things: CAC and PCGS.

ricko

When I lived in the PNW (Seattle area), I used to love going to coin shows... the couple of big ones there each year and many, many small local shows. Since I moved back east, this area has no coin shows - zero, zilch, nada.... I miss both types. I do not travel to major shows... I use my travel money for other interests. So although I do not attend shows now, I do enjoy reading the reports, and it would be a loss to the hobby if they go away. Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

@cameonut2011 said:

@Catbert said:
I think she makes some good points here:

"ARE COIN SHOWS ENDANGERED?

It is my strong opinion, very few MAJOR shows will survive as more then dealer to dealer wholesale wholesale venues. FUN and ANA may be the only big shows to survive intact as “go to” major shows. Baltimore and Long Beach could suffer badly. The CSNS show has new management and it remains to be seen if it will survive. I LOVE shows like the PCGS Invitationals and I think smaller local shows will survive and even thrive.

We witnessed a transition from shows to auctions during the pandemic. Most auction companies sales doubled or more during that time and have not fallen. The new breed of coin buyer does not go to shows or live auctions. The ANA Show in Chicago was empty of collectors. Beside the covid thing, the auction companies chose NOT to hold their sales during the ANA show. Now at Long Beach Heritage is holding their sale in their offices a week later. Stacks just built an incredible studio in its offices for beaming auctions. Show promotors should be worried. The promoters badly need the auction fees to subsidize their shows.

My personal opinion, save the flavor of coin buying! When I started Legend Auctions I wanted to boutique company attached to a show. I thought hard and I approached Don Willis at PCGS. A partnership was formed. I have no regrets and I have no regrets paying much more for the rights for a few more years like I just did. I can’t see doing a sale the following week.

The old format really burnt me and other dealers out trying to work a show then sit until midnight doing a sale. The sales just grew too big. I guess the trend has started for the bigger shows you won’t be seeing many more on site auctions. Auction companies do not need shows anymore. That was proven with the first two Simpson Sales. Have the coins and they will bid. There was no lot viewing and no live in person bidding for those sales. Collectors still flocked to bid in record numbers yielding record prices. I dunno what can be done to shows to save themselves at this point. A severe lack of coins isn’t helping either. While I struggled to survive the grueling schedules of a show with an auction, I feel something is sorely missing not having a live auction at a major show. At FUN and ANA where the biggest sales were held, I remember big rooms nearly filled to capacity with bidders. There was excitement-especially when a big ticket coin was sold. I think auctions brought collectors out. My goodness, can’t these companies at least do one premium night?

This is just how I see it all. Its very disturbing to me that coin buying is mostly a sightunseen commodity now. I’d bet auction catalogs are the next thing to disappear. But then with out 3rd party grading, the internet, and auctions, the rare coin market would never be as huge as it is today. Shows are now an after thought."

https://legendnumismatics.com/hot_topics/coin-shows-today/

I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

vulcanize

@Zoins said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Catbert

For those who can't afford a trip to winter FUN, I understand. However, it is a tremendous experience for a collector. YUGE dealer attendance, educational club seminars, large number of displays and historically a great opportunity for lot viewing via Heritage. It's also in a pleasant town in Orlando that is easy to fly into.

So, if your budget can allow an expense for an experience vs only for coins, it's worth it in my opinion. The group I go with rents a nearby townhouse via AirBNB and we split the expense.

Catbert

@vulcanize said:

@Zoins said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

The premium has to be factored into your bidding strategy. Also, many dealers buy for inventory via auctions. You can bypass the dealer in such a venue or you can buy a coin from them that will have a markup on top of the auction premium.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

Eliminate the dealers and some of the collectors will start buying a few things to resell to fund their collections and before you know it, you'll have more dealers.

CoinJunkie

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

Eliminate the dealers and some of the collectors will start buying a few things to resell to fund their collections and before you know it, you'll have more dealers.

There's a big difference between a full-time coin dealer and a collector who sells items occasionally online. The latter doesn't typically rent a table at shows.

jmlanzaf

@vulcanize said:

@Zoins said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I think we could also substitute “coin show” with “coin dealer.” A lot of people like cutting out the middle man.

Some coin dealers sell from their collection where the collection is the same as inventory. Is this cutting out the middleman?

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Not this again.

A buyer's fee has never cost me 1 cent more than I want to pay.

jmlanzaf

@CoinJunkie said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

Eliminate the dealers and some of the collectors will start buying a few things to resell to fund their collections and before you know it, you'll have more dealers.

There's a big difference between a full-time coin dealer and a collector who sells items occasionally online. The latter doesn't typically rent a table at shows.

Or even want to pay admission to a show...

Coin shows are made possible largely by dealers not collectors.

ScarsdaleCoin

Coins shows don’t have to be huge like the old days… the truth is that small 1 day local shows with a variety of dealers can be very enjoyable. We continue to expand on the Coin And Collectibles Fair now with two shows one in Long Island on Oct 17 and our Westchester NY show in Mt Kisco on Nov 14th. Both shows are some old school meaning they are held in nice hotel ballrooms, have real security, exhibits, YN programs, and for the dealers low table fees…. There are just some things that can be done in person that will never be able to be done online.

Cougar1978

No / shows are not endangered IMO. She is somebody who does really big ticket material and has numerous wealthy clients. Furthermore with that online business and auction house I would not want do shows either. I am sure a lot of them posters here. With the security costs, transport, and table help I would think shows a big expense for somebody in that league. So low attendance (especially the well off big ticket buyers) or lack of money by the public a downer. People coming into small local shows are even hard pressed to have even $300 to spend on coins which is a market segment that obviously doesn’t float the boat of somebody doing big ticket material. However many dealers service this segment. One I know of his 6 world coins for a $ drew lots of traffic. His table crowded with customers looking thru his albums of raw collector coins. Business was brisk for my WPM stacks in the $3-$20 range. My graded notes $100 and up a different ball game.

Small local shows attract a lot of buyers. I enjoy setting up at these and picking up material. These shows provide me place to sell raw cheap stuff under $50 which I don’t bother with in the online store that much. Buying from a wholesaler at a show provides me with inventory for retail. I have calculated this saves me 5-10 pct vs online auctions for most part. Consequently a fan of shows. I think the large national shows with their higher table fees and travel costs can be cost prohibitive for many mkt players. However these (Long Beach & FUN) are a fantastic venue for dealer to dealer sight seen business. If someone in the auction house business less competition from shows favorable for them.

wondercoin

I agree with Laura- I loved the packed auction rooms, the roar of the crowd when a certain coin sold for a world record price, the cheap free food in the back of the room, etc., etc.

The notion though that the pandemic may have been a root cause of the live auctions going away from shows in the future - well, that’s a tougher one to agree with. It’s akin to the argument that movie theaters, such as MEME stock AMC, should have been sold (even “shorted”) when it was $5 a share (and certainly now at $38) as it will likely be going bankrupt as not enough folks will be attending movies in the future in light of Disney+, Netflix, etc. And, obviously, if one shorted AMC at $5 or $6/share on what appeared to be a reasonable argument, that person isn’t doing so well with that stock now at $38 (after it hit 72).

The simple point being - there is place in our culture for the live auction events at major shows just as there is a place in our culture for a movie experience on the big screen. IMHO, as the pandemic improves even more, this will become clearer and clearer. The “free ride” that auction companies have enjoyed will subside. I know myself, I have thrown away thousands of dollars bidding frivolously on “hunches” not seeing this, or that, coin live. I had reasonably good 2020/2021 years selling coins so I could afford to do it. I don’t believe I will be “treating” myself to these indiscretions as much in 2022 and beyond. I know I am not the only one who feels this way about their bidding expectations for 6-12 months from now. The coin auctions at shows will be back IMHO!

Wondercoin

vulcanize

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Not this again.

A buyer's fee has never cost me 1 cent more than I want to pay.

Good for you.

And just to clarify, never said I dont like to pay a buyer's premium - just that 20% is way too high.

jmlanzaf

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Not this again.

A buyer's fee has never cost me 1 cent more than I want to pay.

Good for you.

And just to clarify, never said I dont like to pay a buyer's premium - just that 20% is way too high.

You'd be amazed at what the "Buyer's premium" is at your local shoe store.

jmlanzaf

@Cougar1978 said:
No / shows are not endangered. She is somebody who does big ticket material and has numerous wealthy clients. With the security costs, transport, and table help I would think shows a big expense for somebody in that league. So low attendance (especially the well off big ticket buyers) or lack of money by the public a downer. People coming into small local shows are even hard pressed to have even $300 to spend on coins which is a market segment that obviously doesn’t float the boat of somebody doing big ticket material. However many dealers service this segment. One I know of his 6 world coins for a $ drew lots of traffic. His table crowded with customers looking thru his albums of raw collector coins. Business was brisk for my WPM in the $3-$20 range.

Small local shows attract a lot of buyers. I enjoy setting up at these and picking up material. These shows provide me place to sell raw cheap stuff under $50 which I don’t bother with in the online store that much. Buying from a wholesaler at a show provides me with inventory for retail. I have calculated this saves me 5-10 pct vs online auctions for most part. I think the large national shows with their higher table fees and travel costs can be cost prohibitive for many mkt players. However these (Long Beach & FUN) are a fantastic venue for dealer to dealer sight seen business.

She said MAJOR coin shows. You actually agree with her.

vulcanize

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Not this again.

A buyer's fee has never cost me 1 cent more than I want to pay.

Good for you.

And just to clarify, never said I dont like to pay a buyer's premium - just that 20% is way too high.

You'd be amazed at what the "Buyer's premium" is at your local shoe store.

Totally irrelevant because it is not a bidding war plus I can survive that since it is a max. of 20 to 30$ that I spend on my shoes unlike my coins where we are talking about thousands

jmlanzaf

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

Coin shows are fun but must admit that the 20% buyers fee tacked on to auction house prices are a tad too much for me as a small time collector.

Not this again.

A buyer's fee has never cost me 1 cent more than I want to pay.

Good for you.

And just to clarify, never said I dont like to pay a buyer's premium - just that 20% is way too high.

You'd be amazed at what the "Buyer's premium" is at your local shoe store.

Totally irrelevant because it is not a bidding war plus I can survive that since it is a max. of 20 to 30$ that I spend on my shoes unlike my coins where we are talking about thousands

Yes, but price has nothing to do with the Buyer's Premium. If the Buyer's Premium was zero, it should cost you exactly the same if you do the math when you bid. A negative 20% BP wouldn't save you any money as you would just bid 20% more. That is my point about the BP. People get bent about it because it is visible. When you buy your wife a ring that sells for 700% more than wholesale, no one bats an eye because the "premium" isn't spelled out on the receipt.

The only person who pays the BP is the seller.

vulcanize

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You'd be amazed at what the "Buyer's premium" is at your local shoe store.

Totally irrelevant because it is not a bidding war plus I can survive that since it is a max. of 20 to 30$ that I spend on my shoes unlike my coins where we are talking about thousands

Yes, but price has nothing to do with the Buyer's Premium. If the Buyer's Premium was zero, it should cost you exactly the same if you do the math when you bid. A negative 20% BP wouldn't save you any money as you would just bid 20% more. That is my point about the BP. People get bent about it because it is visible. When you buy your wife a ring that sells for 700% more than wholesale, no one bats an eye because the "premium" isn't spelled out on the receipt.

The only person who pays the BP is the seller.

You don't seem to get the point I am trying to make.

A 20% Buyer's premium is way too much. PERIOD!!!

10% is fine because most people work around that number.

MasonG

@vulcanize said:
You don't seem to get the point I am trying to make.

A 20% Buyer's premium is way too much. PERIOD!!!

10% is fine because most people work around that number.

You can work around a 10% premium but can't if it's 20%?

MFeld

“ You don't seem to get the point I am trying to make.

A 20% Buyer's premium is way too much. PERIOD!!!

10% is fine because most people work around that number.”

I don’t know what you mean by “work around the number”, but I believe his point is that for the buyer, the amount of the buyer’s premium is irrelevant.
If it’s 20% and you’re willing to pay $120, you bid $100 hammer. If it’s 100%, you bid $60 hammer, instead. You pay the same, either way.

vulcanize

When the coin costs many thousands, the flat rate of 20% really starts to rack up. A slab rate would be way better if everyone could just standardize it.

https://coins.ha.com/information/virtual-bourse-coin-market.s

This topic of 20% buyer's premium has been discussed before and one of the threads here https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/985336/heritage-buyers-premium-going-to-20 is indicative of how each one perceives it. As someone said on there, next stop 25% like the art auctions and comic books etc.

That being said, I always bow out of the bidding if the price gets ridiculously high and am basically throwing this argument out there because of the very premise and topic of the thread.

MasonG

@vulcanize said:
As someone said on there, next stop 25% like the art auctions and comic books etc.

1. Figure out how much the coin is worth to you.
2. Subtract the 25% fee from that amount.
3. That's your bid.

It's not rocket surgery.

vulcanize

@MasonG said:

@vulcanize said:
As someone said on there, next stop 25% like the art auctions and comic books etc.

1. Figure out how much the coin is worth to you.
2. Subtract the 25% fee from that amount.
3. That's your bid.

It's not rocket surgery.

Thank you Einstein.

https://www.greatcollections.com/kb/Do-you-charge-a-buyers-fee-t44-4.html

See the difference between just HA and GC?

MasonG

@CoinJunkie said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

Eliminate the dealers and some of the collectors will start buying a few things to resell to fund their collections and before you know it, you'll have more dealers.

There's a big difference between a full-time coin dealer and a collector who sells items occasionally online. The latter doesn't typically rent a table at shows.

Sure there is. I don't see anything in the post of mine quoted that mentions "full-time", though. Do you?

MasonG

@vulcanize said:
See the difference between just HA and GC?

Different auction companies have different fees? Ok- so what?

vulcanize

@MasonG said:

@vulcanize said:
See the difference between just HA and GC?

Different auction companies have different fees? Ok- so what?

Standardization is the buzzword. The thread topic is about Auction houses doing their stuff and whether coin shows are endangered.

A middle path needs to be found.

P0CKETCHANGE

@MasonG said:
It's not rocket surgery.

What the heck is rocket surgery?

vulcanize

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@MasonG said:
It's not rocket surgery.

What the heck is rocket surgery?

I was refraining from being salty and posting it earlier, but now that you have asked, I think it is the Specialization of Brain Surgery by studying Rocket Science.

MasonG

@vulcanize said:
A middle path needs to be found.

To what?

CoinJunkie

@MasonG said:

@CoinJunkie said:

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You eliminate the dealers, you eliminate the shows. Collectors are not paying $50 each (or more) to attend.

Eliminate the dealers and some of the collectors will start buying a few things to resell to fund their collections and before you know it, you'll have more dealers.

There's a big difference between a full-time coin dealer and a collector who sells items occasionally online. The latter doesn't typically rent a table at shows.

Sure there is. I don't see anything in the post of mine quoted that mentions "full-time", though. Do you?

Since this thread is about coin shows being endangered, what then was the point of your post exactly?

MasonG

@CoinJunkie said:
Since this thread is about coin shows being endangered, what then was the point of your post exactly?

I agreed with your prior comment. So - what was the point of your post?

In4apenny

Not going to the coin show in Long Beach because of the criteria to enter. Going to a local one Sunday, some of the dealers are not going because of the same criteria. If you can't cough up a small fee to enter maybe you should not go. I went to a two day show last month, had a great time, met some dealers, and bought some nice sets. Cheers.

Zoins

The BP issue would go away if auction houses had people bid the final price, not the hammer.

Bidding the hammer is nice because it feels like something from a bygone era, like classic coins

MrEureka

I don’t expect coin shows to disappear, but I do expect some of the major shows to get smaller and shorter.

daltex

@Zoins said:
The BP issue would go away if auction houses had people bid the final price, not the hammer.

Bidding the hammer is nice because it feels like something from a bygone era, like classic coins

So how do you propose the Auction Houses get paid?

jmlanzaf

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@vulcanize said:

@jmlanzaf said:
You'd be amazed at what the "Buyer's premium" is at your local shoe store.

Totally irrelevant because it is not a bidding war plus I can survive that since it is a max. of 20 to 30$ that I spend on my shoes unlike my coins where we are talking about thousands

Yes, but price has nothing to do with the Buyer's Premium. If the Buyer's Premium was zero, it should cost you exactly the same if you do the math when you bid. A negative 20% BP wouldn't save you any money as you would just bid 20% more. That is my point about the BP. People get bent about it because it is visible. When you buy your wife a ring that sells for 700% more than wholesale, no one bats an eye because the "premium" isn't spelled out on the receipt.

The only person who pays the BP is the seller.

You don't seem to get the point I am trying to make.

A 20% Buyer's premium is way too much. PERIOD!!!

10% is fine because most people work around that number.

I hear what you are saying, but it is based on a lack of understanding of business. Your shoe store has a hidden 40% premium. Your grocery store has a hidden 20% premium. Your jewelry store has a hidden 80% premium. BECAUSE THEY NEED IT TO PAY THE BILLS.