@Coinstartled said:
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
I tend to vote with my feet as well. Case in point - the big telcos up here in Canada (an oligopoly). Their policies and customer service are just so ridiculous, I cut the cord and gave up cable TV. Sure I miss my sports every once in a while but I won't give them my money. The other one is Air Canada. I routinely pay a few points more to fly another carrier just because I refuse to support them.
However... my vote doesn't seem to be adding up to much. They're both doing just fine without me.
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
My first Heritage consignment about 13 yrs ago went similar to yours. It was 2 coins with an estimated value of $45K+. I was figuring I should get 104% of hammer for only 2 coins of that value. They offered me 102% (back when things were 15% buyer's fee)....nearly 89% net. I went along with it because I was getting to choose the venue (FUN, summer ANA, or spring Long Beach), the time, the night (Platinum night only), the key coin would get a full page write-up, and we would agree on tight enough reserves for a 0% buy back. All of that was written into my contract.
I also got to submit material for the auction description which included full pedigree history which no one else had, and rarity information, which few had. Basically, it was my write up. I wanted to ensure it no road blocks were left up. In the end, that 2% fee "hit" resulted in the coins going for $74.5K, well over what I expected. I was figuring anything from $50K-$65K tops. So that $1500 "loss" in commission was more than made up on other ends. And in my mind, the other auction houses could not have gotten near those same results.
As long as my coins get the proper exposure, and net 88-92% in the end, there's not much else to discuss. And I could always forward them along to Wondercoin or other 3rd party dealers who can pool lots to get better rates.
To the earlier comment about a 100% buyer's fee....why not 900%? That's even easier to calculate. Just move the decimal place one digit to the left on your bid. So if this is a $1,000 coin, bid $100. Anyone think the buyer is going to pony up $1,000 for a $100 coin? Sky's the limit.
@roadrunner said:
To the earlier comment about a 100% buyer's fee....why not 900%? That's even easier to calculate. Just move the decimal place one digit to the left on your bid. So if this is a $1,000 coin, bid $100. Anyone think the buyer is going to pony up $1,000 for a $100 coin? Sky's the limit.
Earlier you mentioned that some people won't do the calculation and that a reason to keep BPs is to catch those people. Seems like a way to earn tuition.
One thing that seems forgotten here is that, by many of the forum members' admissions in other discussions, is that you don't treat special coins like you do "widgets". I frequently hear "throw the price guides out the window with a coin like that"
So when considering auctions, obviously people have a buying limit on everything, but who here hasn't been willing to stretch on a coin that is in exquisite condition, truly rare, low/top pop, has fabulous toning, original surfaces, booming luster, etc. It is on these purchases where the buyer feels the hurt of the higher BP's, because as you stretch the BP stretches with you.
@Nap said:
One thing that seems forgotten here is that, by many of the forum members' admissions in other discussions, is that you don't treat special coins like you do "widgets". I frequently hear "throw the price guides out the window with a coin like that"
So when considering auctions, obviously people have a buying limit on everything, but who here hasn't been willing to stretch on a coin that is in exquisite condition, truly rare, low/top pop, has fabulous toning, original surfaces, booming luster, etc. It is on these purchases where the buyer feels the hurt of the higher BP's, because as you stretch the BP stretches with you.
Exactly, Iets say a coin you interested in comes up for sale and your comfortable spending 1000 dollars on it, so you factor in a bid of 800 and place it only to find it's not high bid or gets outbid sometime later. You walk away. Maybe in the following days of the auction you get comfortable with maybe just a little more just to see if you simply matched the high bid and figure why not it's just a little more money. Its a human nature issue that gets involved and the higher the BP gets the larger the trap.
I've always seen auction as the convenient way to buy coins and maybe a bit lazy and even boring but convenience costs more for anything. Getting them to carry the water on the legwork of selling is sort of easy too but costs as well. I suppose there was a time when auction companies could claim they would get you more than you can yourself, are we talking about if this is still the case or not?
There was a time when collectors had no other options . People are getting more accustomed to seeing bottom line costs and saying yea or nay . They are no longer interested in spending 10 years glad handing some mustard stained nimrod for that extra 2% , and/ or otherwise patiently waiting their turn to reach the 5th circle of enlightened consignors who get the best deal.
True story , I filled my gas tank the other day , there was a price on the pump and that's what I paid. I didn't have to back out any buyers premium , and I didn't have to wash anyone's feet for the privilege of pulling up to the pump , excluding the top few percent of rare and or special items most are ready to be done with that garbage.
There are other outlets , more every day, the auction venues are becoming gas stations now , they are trying to hold onto their special status to grift whatever dollars they can out of customers before the jig is up.
@ChrisH821 said:
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
Nope - who is going to get the big consignments....the company offering 105% of hammer or the company offering 107%?
OK, everybody wants to talk math. So let's do math with an example.
Company A: 17.5% buyers fee, 105% to the seller
Company B: 20% buyers fee, 107.5% to the seller
$1,000 (final price) coin:
Co. A: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 17.5% to bid $825 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @ 105% Consignor gets $866.25.
Co. B: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 20% to bid $800 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @107.5% Consignor gets $860.
THE HOUSE WINS WITH A HIGHER BUYER'S FEE. The math is right there! Getting 107.5% of a lower hammer price is worse than 105% of a higher hammer price.
The math is wrong. If you want to pay $1000 in each case, take 1000 and divide it by 1.175 for Case A and 1.20 for Case B.
So, for an 17.5% BP, the hammer price is $851.06 with a BP of $148.94
For a 20% BP, the hammer price is $833.33 with a BP of 166.67
Assuming, as you did, that the consignor gets 105% of A's hammer and 107.5% f B's hammer yields $893.62 to the consignor for A and $895.83 to the consignor for B.
The only people that really will suffer are the small consignors who get 100% of hammer...or even 90% if they pay the seller's fee.
For many rare and highly sought coins the major auction route is essential to get top dollar at the right time of year HA signature auctions bring strong money, they have a large following of people that do not do much buying with the minor players. However I feel sorry for unknowledgeable consignors who are selling common type gold or "grade rarities" that could just as easily be sold to the top buyers like Rarcoa, US Coins, etc..
Goldberg has not gone to 20% we are still at 17.5%. We are 20% on collectibles (not coins) though.
Numismatic Photographer for Superior/Ira & Larry Goldberg since 1990, Photographer of THE TYRANT COLLECTION one of the greatest collection ever formed.
@roadrunner said:
To the earlier comment about a 100% buyer's fee....why not 900%? That's even easier to calculate. Just move the decimal place one digit to the left on your bid. So if this is a $1,000 coin, bid $100. Anyone think the buyer is going to pony up $1,000 for a $100 coin? Sky's the limit.
I disagree. A ridiculous buyers’ fee, like 900%, would make incremental bidding very difficult. Maybe we could make the fee 10,000%, and we could start bidding in cents. There is practical limit to the buyers’ fee, and we are getting closer to it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I cant remember the last time a coin dealer contacted me with a coin for my collection. I know hundreds, any one else?
Dealers have contacted me with want list items, but sadly all but one of the coins have not worked. It needs to be correctly graded and fairly priced. That seems to be hard to do these days. Just finding examples of pieces on my want is list hard enough, although none of the coins are noted rarities.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I cannot remember what Great Collections BP is but Heritage will ever sell a coin for me. Those who rely on selling through HA just saw what margin they had shrink or disappear. I would not expect to see the rare higher grade coins going to them but its their call. I have noticed the number of branch mint gold coins drop significantly over the last 4-6 months. I don't know if they are being sold through other avenues or people are not selling rare coins as the economy improves.
@oldgoldlover said:
I cannot remember what Great Collections BP is but Heritage will ever sell a coin for me. Those who rely on selling through HA just saw what margin they had shrink or disappear. I would not expect to see the rare higher grade coins going to them but its their call. I have noticed the number of branch mint gold coins drop significantly over the last 4-6 months. I don't know if they are being sold through other avenues or people are not selling rare coins as the economy improves.
EVERY major house is at 20%. IF the "rare higher grade coins" aren't going to them they are being sold by private treaty.
Comments
I tend to vote with my feet as well. Case in point - the big telcos up here in Canada (an oligopoly). Their policies and customer service are just so ridiculous, I cut the cord and gave up cable TV. Sure I miss my sports every once in a while but I won't give them my money. The other one is Air Canada. I routinely pay a few points more to fly another carrier just because I refuse to support them.
However... my vote doesn't seem to be adding up to much. They're both doing just fine without me.
My first Heritage consignment about 13 yrs ago went similar to yours. It was 2 coins with an estimated value of $45K+. I was figuring I should get 104% of hammer for only 2 coins of that value. They offered me 102% (back when things were 15% buyer's fee)....nearly 89% net. I went along with it because I was getting to choose the venue (FUN, summer ANA, or spring Long Beach), the time, the night (Platinum night only), the key coin would get a full page write-up, and we would agree on tight enough reserves for a 0% buy back. All of that was written into my contract.
I also got to submit material for the auction description which included full pedigree history which no one else had, and rarity information, which few had. Basically, it was my write up. I wanted to ensure it no road blocks were left up. In the end, that 2% fee "hit" resulted in the coins going for $74.5K, well over what I expected. I was figuring anything from $50K-$65K tops. So that $1500 "loss" in commission was more than made up on other ends. And in my mind, the other auction houses could not have gotten near those same results.
As long as my coins get the proper exposure, and net 88-92% in the end, there's not much else to discuss. And I could always forward them along to Wondercoin or other 3rd party dealers who can pool lots to get better rates.
To the earlier comment about a 100% buyer's fee....why not 900%? That's even easier to calculate. Just move the decimal place one digit to the left on your bid. So if this is a $1,000 coin, bid $100. Anyone think the buyer is going to pony up $1,000 for a $100 coin? Sky's the limit.
Earlier you mentioned that some people won't do the calculation and that a reason to keep BPs is to catch those people. Seems like a way to earn tuition.
One thing that seems forgotten here is that, by many of the forum members' admissions in other discussions, is that you don't treat special coins like you do "widgets". I frequently hear "throw the price guides out the window with a coin like that"
So when considering auctions, obviously people have a buying limit on everything, but who here hasn't been willing to stretch on a coin that is in exquisite condition, truly rare, low/top pop, has fabulous toning, original surfaces, booming luster, etc. It is on these purchases where the buyer feels the hurt of the higher BP's, because as you stretch the BP stretches with you.
Exactly, Iets say a coin you interested in comes up for sale and your comfortable spending 1000 dollars on it, so you factor in a bid of 800 and place it only to find it's not high bid or gets outbid sometime later. You walk away. Maybe in the following days of the auction you get comfortable with maybe just a little more just to see if you simply matched the high bid and figure why not it's just a little more money. Its a human nature issue that gets involved and the higher the BP gets the larger the trap.
I've always seen auction as the convenient way to buy coins and maybe a bit lazy and even boring but convenience costs more for anything. Getting them to carry the water on the legwork of selling is sort of easy too but costs as well. I suppose there was a time when auction companies could claim they would get you more than you can yourself, are we talking about if this is still the case or not?
and people complain about Ebay fees.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I see that Goldberg has followed suit in their latest auction and gone to 20% also.
There was a time when collectors had no other options . People are getting more accustomed to seeing bottom line costs and saying yea or nay . They are no longer interested in spending 10 years glad handing some mustard stained nimrod for that extra 2% , and/ or otherwise patiently waiting their turn to reach the 5th circle of enlightened consignors who get the best deal.
True story , I filled my gas tank the other day , there was a price on the pump and that's what I paid. I didn't have to back out any buyers premium , and I didn't have to wash anyone's feet for the privilege of pulling up to the pump , excluding the top few percent of rare and or special items most are ready to be done with that garbage.
There are other outlets , more every day, the auction venues are becoming gas stations now , they are trying to hold onto their special status to grift whatever dollars they can out of customers before the jig is up.
The math is wrong. If you want to pay $1000 in each case, take 1000 and divide it by 1.175 for Case A and 1.20 for Case B.
So, for an 17.5% BP, the hammer price is $851.06 with a BP of $148.94
For a 20% BP, the hammer price is $833.33 with a BP of 166.67
Assuming, as you did, that the consignor gets 105% of A's hammer and 107.5% f B's hammer yields $893.62 to the consignor for A and $895.83 to the consignor for B.
The only people that really will suffer are the small consignors who get 100% of hammer...or even 90% if they pay the seller's fee.
So what happens to the extra 2.5% if you had already consigned to Long Beach sales ?????????
For many rare and highly sought coins the major auction route is essential to get top dollar at the right time of year HA signature auctions bring strong money, they have a large following of people that do not do much buying with the minor players. However I feel sorry for unknowledgeable consignors who are selling common type gold or "grade rarities" that could just as easily be sold to the top buyers like Rarcoa, US Coins, etc..
Goldberg has not gone to 20% we are still at 17.5%. We are 20% on collectibles (not coins) though.
I disagree. A ridiculous buyers’ fee, like 900%, would make incremental bidding very difficult. Maybe we could make the fee 10,000%, and we could start bidding in cents. There is practical limit to the buyers’ fee, and we are getting closer to it.
It happens. I was contacted out of the blue by a dealer who had a low surviving population coin I needed for my Registry set. It is pictured below.
After checking on his credibility I purchased the coin. Perhaps once a year I will receive similar inquiries.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Dealers have contacted me with want list items, but sadly all but one of the coins have not worked. It needs to be correctly graded and fairly priced. That seems to be hard to do these days. Just finding examples of pieces on my want is list hard enough, although none of the coins are noted rarities.
I cannot remember what Great Collections BP is but Heritage will ever sell a coin for me. Those who rely on selling through HA just saw what margin they had shrink or disappear. I would not expect to see the rare higher grade coins going to them but its their call. I have noticed the number of branch mint gold coins drop significantly over the last 4-6 months. I don't know if they are being sold through other avenues or people are not selling rare coins as the economy improves.
EVERY major house is at 20%. IF the "rare higher grade coins" aren't going to them they are being sold by private treaty.