@REALGATOR said:
I'm sure consignors love getting $200 under melt
It's odd. As buyer's fees have increased from 10% to 17.5% over the years, I netted more from my consignments....and when buying....saw no effect of prices.
How could you possibly know that?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ColonelJessup said:
If you're a natural-born sucker who doesn't perform due diligence, nothing has changed.
If you've been paying attention and passed 5th-grade math, nothing has changed.
Old sig-line of mine by Mary Oliver: "Here is hope retching, the world as it is... "
All the negative comments seem to indicate annoyed customers which could lead to less income. They have to be looking past that and still seeing it as a positive. To me they must be aware that intelligent buyers will back out the fee, That makes me think they expect to make up the difference via dumb sellers or higher prices. All we have to do is see if prices go up going forward , now that the smart bidders are gearing up to back an extra 2.5% out I somehow doubt it. Therefore its dumb sellers that are going to foot the bill.
all buyers will be paying 20% , all buyers get the same deal, its obvious all sellers do not get the same deal. Pride leads people to believe they are better negotiators than they really are . Oh look at me I'm so smart I'm getting x% of hammer . Half a 100 readers smirk and pat themselves on the back at how they are getting x+3 % or x+9 %
Maybe some with thick enough skins are willing to say what they get in no uncertain terms and let the chips fall where they may. Perhaps someone who is an irregular customer that doesn't care anymore could say I sold this coin on this date and got this % of hammer. Someone else who sold a similar coin but consigns regularly might say those $%$%$%$ers are giving me 5% less than that fool , I'm going to take my business elsewhere.
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
That doesn't sound like Mark. It must have been in the phrasing. What they do is legal; I just think it happens to be unfair and creates a questionable system of pricing data that may or may not reflect reality.
You are kidding right with 'not sound like Mark'? Dare I say it, once ATS, I pointed out in a thread to Mr. Feld that his post looked like a COI discussing a coin that was being talked about in that thread that was in a current open Ha auction and he sent me a PM to tell me to talk to someone else at Ha for now on about their coins because he wound not help me again. So what does sound like Mark then? It was like 'how dare you question me SH (not my real name), so just for that, Ha does not care whether you do buisness with us'. Mark Feld is VERY harsh on alot of people/posts ATS.
@Boosibri said:
Great marketing opportunity for specialist dealers as an alternative outlet for buying and selling coins.
Yes, it’s time to for the smaller, more agile companies to make a statement.
While attracting consignors seems to be the main focus of the “big two,” you have to have buyers to make the consignors happy. As a buyer, who has never consigned anything to a major auction house, I feel like I’m getting hosed on a regular basis. This latest buying fee fiasco is the icing on the cake.
I’ve been looking at GC with great interest. The trouble is neither they nor anyone else, including “the big two,” has had a couple coins that are on my list. If GC gets them in the grade and the look I want, they are going to get some aggressive bids from me.
I’m getting really tired of the “big two.” The time has come for them to get some respect for buyers as well as sellers.
Agreed. I have had good results with GC the one time I consigned with them. If enough of us start to consign coins with them that span low to high prices, it will only help everyone, attract more consignors, will bring more bidders. Let's hope Ian holds the line on his buyer and seller fees.
@ChrisH821 said:
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day.
Just because most people are logical doesn't mean that all people are logical. There are also plenty of logical people who don't always think logically.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I suspect coin auctions will eventually hit that number.
Well all the "auction" houses have to stay "competitive" with each other (sarcasm), so you're probably not wrong.
Do you think there would be a public outcry if American Airlines and Delta upped their fees within weeks of each other indicating they need to stay competitive?
They do. SOP. It's called tacit collusion and it's completely legal.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ColonelJessup said:
If you're a natural-born sucker who doesn't perform due diligence, nothing has changed.
If you've been paying attention and passed 5th-grade math, nothing has changed.
Old sig-line of mine by Mary Oliver: "Here is hope retching, the world as it is... "
3: If, however, you are a smaller consignor who might send $50k-$100k to auction each year, you will very likely take the entire 2.5% "buyer's fee" increase right in the shorts.
Seriously, buyers and large consignors don't need to keep talking about being good at math. It is the smaller consignors that will furnish the bulk of increased profits to the auction houses from this move.
@ColonelJessup said:
If you're a natural-born sucker who doesn't perform due diligence, nothing has changed.
If you've been paying attention and passed 5th-grade math, nothing has changed.
Old sig-line of mine by Mary Oliver: "Here is hope retching, the world as it is... "
Mostly true except in the narrow case of you may fail by 1 bid increment to hit a reserve because of the higher BP.
I suspect coin auctions will eventually hit that number.
Well all the "auction" houses have to stay "competitive" with each other (sarcasm), so you're probably not wrong.
Do you think there would be a public outcry if American Airlines and Delta upped their fees within weeks of each other indicating they need to stay competitive?
They do. SOP. It's called tacit collusion and it's completely legal.
When the door to pricing is open why not walk through it.
If you don't like the terms it it is time to start looking at the alternatives. No one forces you to bid for collectibles. They are strictly a discretionary item.
@291fifth said:
If you don't like the terms it it is time to start looking at the alternatives. No one forces you to bid for collectibles. They are strictly a discretionary item.
True, but to paraphrase Dr. Sheldon, sometimes the collector in you bites hard. If the shows were only as good as they were a few years ago, messing with these auctions would not be necessary. Since auctions seem to be taking over the qulaity coin market, different auction houses would be most welcome given that the current leaders have become so greedy and tone deaf.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@jwitten said:
As other's have pointed out, it's the seller who is hurt here. As a bidder, I would calculate my final price, and bid accordingly. All the money gets taken from the seller's pockets, which mean, I doubt I would ever sell my coins using any of these big auction houses.
But from the explanation of Heritage's Bob Marino that I read, they increased the premium because Stack's had done so and they (Heritage) had to be able to compete for consignments, and with the higher buyer's premiums, Stack's had a perceived advantage over Heritage since, with the higher buyer's fees, Stack's could offer more incentives to sellers to get consignments.
Confusing, I know, but it does make sense somehow. And if that is true, then, Boarse activity will not be impacted appreciably, since sellers will still sell to the auction house that pays the highest return over hammer.
I'm now inclined to side with the Colonel, who I rarely understand, that ... "nothing has changed."
Eh, sounds like BS to me. Kinda like ebay raising my final value fees a couple percent, lowering insertion fees by a nickel, and proudly advertising "LOWEST FEES EVER!"
@ChrisH821 said:
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
Nope - who is going to get the big consignments....the company offering 105% of hammer or the company offering 107%?
@ChrisH821 said:
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
Nope - who is going to get the big consignments....the company offering 105% of hammer or the company offering 107%?
And some day somebody's going to figure out that the big companies are getting lower bids because their buyer's fee is so high. I think that 20% is their limit. If they go to 22.5% or 25%, they are going to see a big drop off in bids.
The Heritage political department has a 25% buyers' fee, and most of what they sell is the stuff that the smaller houses don't offer, the 3D items, like pitchers, banners, canes and coaloil lanterns. If you have political numismatic tokens and but the very best buttons, they get poor auction coverage from Heritage because the smaller houses, like Anderson and Steve Hayden with their 15% rate or no buyers' fee, are way ahead of them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@ChrisH821 said:
I don't get it... Won't this just drive consignments elsewhere? Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
What they should focus on is making the website more user friendly.
Nope - who is going to get the big consignments....the company offering 105% of hammer or the company offering 107%?
OK, everybody wants to talk math. So let's do math with an example.
Company A: 17.5% buyers fee, 105% to the seller
Company B: 20% buyers fee, 107.5% to the seller
$1,000 (final price) coin:
Co. A: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 17.5% to bid $825 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @ 105% Consignor gets $866.25.
Co. B: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 20% to bid $800 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @107.5% Consignor gets $860.
THE HOUSE WINS WITH A HIGHER BUYER'S FEE. The math is right there! Getting 107.5% of a lower hammer price is worse than 105% of a higher hammer price.
No, it's not a good thing for consignors either, because it drives down hammer prices in general. The higher the buyers' fees get, the less incentive there is to bother with auctions.
I don't know if that's necessarily true. Buyer's fees showed up in the early 1980's and then continued higher. I don't think the major auction houses were hurting for business in the bull market years of 1998-2008 despite higher buyer's fees. If anything, there were more coins going to major auction than ever before. The advent of the TPG's probably helped bring a lot more coins to auction as well.
@ChrisH821 said:
Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
Raising the buyer's fee is the same as raising the "potential" seller's/consignor's fees. The seller is free to negotiate them. You don't have to sit still for a 10% seller's fee and 20% buyer's fee....or 30% total in fees...equal to a net 75% of the price realized. Most 5 figure consignors work deals much better than that. Auction houses are all basically raising the rate at the same time....and following the larger art houses who will no doubt head to 27.5% to 30% in the coming years. If they can do it and survive....coin auction houses will too. While most players will adjust their bids accordingly, and most consignors will negotiate at least HALF of the fees away.....there will be those stragglers who don't such that they will be footing the brunt of the higher rates....benefiting the auction house. Had the recent owner of the $520K Proof $20 DE at a net 80% waited until next year to auction.....they'd have been paying that extra 2.5% or $10,000 (or a net 78%). Do that enough times....and it's real money. It can debated if those deals will outweigh the consignors that don't show up in the future.
Why should there be a tipping point at a 22.5-25% buyer's fee? No doubt people complained loudly with the 10%, 15%, and 17.5% buyer's fees. I'm sure tipping points were mentioned in those discussions. They never happened. And I doubt it's gonna happen at 22-25% either. The art houses are still with us. They thrive big time in bull markets and hang on in bears.....just like coin dealers....whatever the posted fees are.
@ChrisH821 said:
Raising the "buyer's" fee is really just raising the seller's fee since bidders will adjust their bids to offset the extra fee, so less in the seller's pocket at the end of the day. If they are trying to be competitive they are going in the wrong direction.
Raising the buyer's fee is the same as raising the "potential" seller's/consignor's fees. The seller is free to negotiate them. You don't have to sit still for a 10% seller's fee and 20% buyer's fee....or 30% total in fees...equal to a net 75% of the price realized. Most 5 figure consignors work deals much better than that. Auction houses are all basically raising the rate at the same time....and following the larger art houses who will no doubt head to 27.5% to 30% in the coming years. If they can do it and survive....coin auction houses will too. While most players will adjust their bids accordingly, and most consignors will negotiate at least HALF of the fees away.....there will be those stragglers who don't such that they will be footing the brunt of the higher rates....benefiting the auction house. Had the recent owner of the $520K Proof $20 DE at a net 80% waited until next year to auction.....they'd have been paying that extra 2.5% or $10,000 (or a net 78%). Do that enough times....and it's real money. It can debated if those deals will outweigh the consignors that don't show up in the future.
Why should there be a tipping point at a 22.5-25% buyer's fee? No doubt people complained loudly with the 10%, 15%, and 17.5% buyer's fees. I'm sure tipping points were mentioned in those discussions. They never happened. And I doubt it's gonna happen at 22-25% either. The art houses are still with us. They thrive big time in bull markets and hang on in bears.....just like coin dealers....whatever the posted fees are.
Aren't you the guy who thinks that a 100% buyers' fee would be just fine? If so, these posts speak volumes. Pretty soon the auction market will be only for multimillionaires, and there won’t be any room for growing new collectors. Then we will join the stamp hobby, which for the pure collector, must be heaven these days because prices have crashed through the floor and down to the basement.
Today the biggest and best market that most stamp dealers have is for discount postage.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Hard to believe so many posts saying they feel relief ..they won't have to calculate a 17.5% juice bid amount.... and also joyful paying a 20 % buyers fee for Heritage
3: If, however, you are a smaller consignor who might send $50k-$100k to auction each year, you will very likely take the entire 2.5% "buyer's fee" increase right in the shorts.
That would be $1250 to $2500. Sense of proportion to apply. Marginal utility of $48,750 in newly available coins at lower replacement cost levels.
Not for everyone, but I'm sure everyone with a 100% sell-through rate (no reserves) does better than most retail consignments and will pick up a point of the 2.5.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I'm starting my first day of six-month self-exile for threads on auction commissions and the market.
Since I'm already attending Tues meetings online under the sponsorship of derivatives traders, cocaine addicts and quasi-quality bean queens, about all that's left is acetone.
Pearls before swine.
Others on these threads are either transactional fools or masochists .
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@JBatDavidLawrence said:
I'm not sure that any of the major dealers in the hobby were surprised by this. When the market slows down and consignments are harder to come by, you have to raise your margins, even if just half of a percent. It's not an easy business!
Unfortunately, it surely doesn't make things easier as a buyer (even though 20% is easier to figure than 17.5%).
Now for the self-promotion, this is exactly why we removed a buyer's fee and shipping charges years ago. It simply adds transparency and makes the process easier to understand, from a buyer's standpoint...
In one hand its easier your way. But you guys have hidden bidders and 9 out of 10 times, the the house bids on the lots when its going under current market price. If you guys had transparent bidding, more folks will come to your auctions.
Heritage also has hidden bidders AND bids on material in their own auctions. Not following your point here.
Heritage will also place coins it owns into its own auctions, and I would assume it bids on those too given that some of the auction coins end up on Heritage's eBay page. It is laughable that someone would imply that Heritage is transparent (not you brg5658).
Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
Sounds like feld to me.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I am glad that I am dialing back to coins that can found at the major shows, even with lack of selection that now marks many shows. Buying big coins at auctions is no fun any more. It was okay when the rate was 15%. It lost luster at 17.5%. Now it's up to 20 and I can't any reason why it won't go higher given the reactions and even advocacy you see from some people here. The 25% rate will be very easy to calculate. So will 50 and 100.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Zoins said:
In what scenario would auction houses be included to decrease or eliminate the BP?
I cannot think one. They are very stubborn people, the combined buying power of those here who are unhappy with this is not large enough to matter to them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
As a buyer, it's just math. As a potential consignor, it's a HUGE issue for me.
Three or four years ago, if forced to sell, I would have have contacted my friends at Heritage first. Now, they'd be 3rd on the list. My perception of their operation has gradually receded during this time while others have risen. I'd still see what kind of offer they'd make me, but from what I've heard from them previously, I'd be surprised if their offer would equal what I could get elsewhere.
Maybe my perceptions aren't entirely accurate, but perception is more important than reality in business.
@BryceM said:
As a buyer, it's just math. As a potential consignor, it's a HUGE issue for me.
Three or four years ago, if forced to sell, I would have have contacted my friends at Heritage first. Now, they'd be 3rd on the list. My perception of their operation has gradually receded during this time while others have risen. I'd still see what kind of offer they'd make me, but from what I've heard from them previously, I'd be surprised if their offer would equal what I could get elsewhere.
Maybe my perceptions aren't entirely accurate, but perception is more important than reality in business.
This is exactly how I feel.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I can contribute something here, because I've seen inside this in a different business.
The people who run HA know their business, and if they're raising BP, it's because they have a very good indication that it's going to be better for their bottom line. Anyone who wonders 'But if everyone protests and goes to GC or goes private or to eBay, won't they suffer a hit to their bottom line?' doesn't know the intricacies of their business. Some of it was outlined here but went a bit over my head.
Another possibility is that this change goes hand in hand with some other restructuring of which which we're unaware, either current or foreseen, that rationalizes it from a business perspective.
There is almost zero chance, in my view, that you will ever see HA come with 'We're sorry, we made a mistake, we're dropping BP back down to 17.5% and we want to thank all our loyal customers'. Ain't gonna happen.
What on earth would this forum discuss if not for rising buyers fees and CAC? It would be as dead as the NGC forum.
I can say that of my 49 "disagrees", they have come from either buyers fee threads, CAC threads, or rogue (now banned) ALT's who disagreed with everything, including pretty pictures of expensive coins.
It is a reasonable argument that bidders may suffer no impact when rates rise like this as they can simply adjust their bids accordingly. While I believe bidders do suffer a very minor impact, it appears I am in the minority on that point. So, let's just leave it at bidders are essentially not affected by this increase.
The larger consignors to Heritage who consign items that sell (as opposed to items that fail to sell at set reserves) and quite possibly to Stacks as well although I can not say for sure as I have not consigned anything to Stacks for at least roughly a year or more at this point, it appears will also not be affected virtually at all by this change. And, for that matter, collectors who work closely with a dealer when it comes time to sell should also not be affected virtually at all by this change. I know my customers who consign through me will not be (virtually at all). I am discussing it privately with them this week so I am fairly confident in what I am saying here.
FACT - I currently get a better deal with Heritage (and I would assume Stacks as well) than I do if I chose to consign any coins with GC at their posted consignment rates. This is for coins that I am selling at auction with no reserve. For coins that I want to offer out at a reserve (and fail to sell), GC would result in a better rate I assume as I believe they charge next to nothing (or nothing) on reserved coins that fail to sell. But, my consignors (typically) want their coins to sell at Heritage and are generally comfortable selling them at no reserve (not everyone, but the majority of my customers to be sure).
In future years, anything is possible. We will have to see. Maybe by then, my son, Justin (monstercoinmart on eBay), will be ready to sell everything for me on eBay or on his website! Since DLRC took a free "plug" here, why not one for my son as well.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Transparency is what I want when dealing with a business.
If they have a better consignment rate for larger consignments, then post it on your website.
The idea that you have to know who to go to or what the special deal is to get better rates is BS.
To me it looks like they are just trying to take advantage of the uniformed, and to me that is a turn off.
If you want my business tell me openly what the rate is, otherwise I will pick a competitor or other ways to sell, even it that turns out to not be better financially. At least I feel better that I'm supporting a company or person that is more transparent. And in the long run if more people do the same that business will succeed at the expense of the other businesses.
"Transparency is what I want when dealing with a business."
I can't think of a business where every rate for every single person and company is on a company website. I am sure there is one out there, but I can't think of it right this second. I wish Doctors and hospitals had such a thing though. But I digress....
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@Tradernik said:
I can contribute something here, because I've seen inside this in a different business.
The people who run HA know their business, and if they're raising BP, it's because they have a very good indication that it's going to be better for their bottom line. Anyone who wonders 'But if everyone protests and goes to GC or goes private or to eBay, won't they suffer a hit to their bottom line?' doesn't know the intricacies of their business. Some of it was outlined here but went a bit over my head.
Another possibility is that this change goes hand in hand with some other restructuring of which which we're unaware, either current or foreseen, that rationalizes it from a business perspective.
There is almost zero chance, in my view, that you will ever see HA come with 'We're sorry, we made a mistake, we're dropping BP back down to 17.5% and we want to thank all our loyal customers'. Ain't gonna happen.
These people know their business.
As noted earlier I am a frequent buyer at Heritage. Fees are not an issue as the seller absorbs all of it. Shipping fees are over the top but again it becomes a hit to the seller and not the buyer.
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
I will offer mine on the BST and let collectors decide. Maybe the full time coin dealers will become the place to shop again. I sure WISH the ANA ethics of coin dealing (3 day rule inspection) would replace the pass or play of the net world.
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
How about they stop all the handwaving and circle jerking , since the seller is paying the fee , spell out the friggin fee .
It's not your fault you didn't know the secret handshake. Of course its their fault , the whole idea is stupid .
@wondercoin said:
"Transparency is what I want when dealing with a business."
I can't think of a business where every rate for every single person and company is on a company website. I am sure there is one out there, but I can't think of it right this second. I wish Doctors and hospitals had such a thing though. But I digress....
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Car dealerships used to not be very transparent on the price you would pay for a particular car.
Now there are many dealers that post a "best price" on their website so that you compare prices and decide who you want to deal with. You know up front what the price will be and you can then just deal with a trade in and decide to take their offer or sell via other means.
"Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
Numiven: First, as a general rule, I welcome "housebidding" on my consignment coins and suggest to my customers that, in my opinion, they should as well. This is not the place for a full discussion on that separate subject, but if a separate thread is ever opened here, I would certainly participate in that thread. I generally do not participate on the NGC boards due to time constraints unless something I am specifically doing is mentioned over there (like a coin I am selling on eBay, etc). So, I did not participate in whatever thread you opened over there. BUT, I would be very surprised if you were "scolded and scoffed" by Mark Feld on your thread as a reply by Mark. Will Mark offer his opinion on matters (as I do here) and will those opinions, at times, be very clear in advocating one side or another of an issue? Of course, he was an attorney I believe in his younger days But, all kidding aside, in most cases, i would listen very closely to what Mark has to say on a particular subject. He is a seasoned veteran that most of us here can learn from.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
How about they stop all the handwaving and circle jerking , since the seller is paying the fee , spell out the friggin fee .
It's not your fault you didn't know the secret handshake. Of course its their fault , the whole idea is stupid .
It was my fault as I was still a bit green as far as consignments. Broke even on the transaction and was damn lucky to do so. I find that it is best to control the sale of one's coins. Tough to do that with major auction houses.
Comments
How could you possibly know that?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In the case the underbidder becomes the winner, the lack of calculation can cost you the coin which may be more important in some cases.
It's been said that finding bidders that don't adjust their bids is a reason for BPs to exist. I wonder how many bidders don't do the adjustment.
All the negative comments seem to indicate annoyed customers which could lead to less income. They have to be looking past that and still seeing it as a positive. To me they must be aware that intelligent buyers will back out the fee, That makes me think they expect to make up the difference via dumb sellers or higher prices. All we have to do is see if prices go up going forward
, now that the smart bidders are gearing up to back an extra 2.5% out I somehow doubt it. Therefore its dumb sellers that are going to foot the bill.
all buyers will be paying 20% , all buyers get the same deal, its obvious all sellers do not get the same deal. Pride leads people to believe they are better negotiators than they really are . Oh look at me I'm so smart I'm getting x% of hammer . Half a 100 readers smirk and pat themselves on the back at how they are getting x+3 % or x+9 %
Maybe some with thick enough skins are willing to say what they get in no uncertain terms and let the chips fall where they may. Perhaps someone who is an irregular customer that doesn't care anymore could say I sold this coin on this date and got this % of hammer. Someone else who sold a similar coin but consigns regularly might say those $%$%$%$ers are giving me 5% less than that fool , I'm going to take my business elsewhere.
You are kidding right with 'not sound like Mark'? Dare I say it, once ATS, I pointed out in a thread to Mr. Feld that his post looked like a COI discussing a coin that was being talked about in that thread that was in a current open Ha auction and he sent me a PM to tell me to talk to someone else at Ha for now on about their coins because he wound not help me again. So what does sound like Mark then? It was like 'how dare you question me SH (not my real name), so just for that, Ha does not care whether you do buisness with us'. Mark Feld is VERY harsh on alot of people/posts ATS.
Best, SH
Agreed. I have had good results with GC the one time I consigned with them. If enough of us start to consign coins with them that span low to high prices, it will only help everyone, attract more consignors, will bring more bidders. Let's hope Ian holds the line on his buyer and seller fees.
Best, SH
Just because most people are logical doesn't mean that all people are logical. There are also plenty of logical people who don't always think logically.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
They do. SOP. It's called tacit collusion and it's completely legal.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
3: If, however, you are a smaller consignor who might send $50k-$100k to auction each year, you will very likely take the entire 2.5% "buyer's fee" increase right in the shorts.
Seriously, buyers and large consignors don't need to keep talking about being good at math. It is the smaller consignors that will furnish the bulk of increased profits to the auction houses from this move.
Mostly true except in the narrow case of you may fail by 1 bid increment to hit a reserve because of the higher BP.
When the door to pricing is open why not walk through it.
Latin American Collection
If you don't like the terms it it is time to start looking at the alternatives. No one forces you to bid for collectibles. They are strictly a discretionary item.
True, but to paraphrase Dr. Sheldon, sometimes the collector in you bites hard. If the shows were only as good as they were a few years ago, messing with these auctions would not be necessary. Since auctions seem to be taking over the qulaity coin market, different auction houses would be most welcome given that the current leaders have become so greedy and tone deaf.
But from the explanation of Heritage's Bob Marino that I read, they increased the premium because Stack's had done so and they (Heritage) had to be able to compete for consignments, and with the higher buyer's premiums, Stack's had a perceived advantage over Heritage since, with the higher buyer's fees, Stack's could offer more incentives to sellers to get consignments.
Confusing, I know, but it does make sense somehow. And if that is true, then, Boarse activity will not be impacted appreciably, since sellers will still sell to the auction house that pays the highest return over hammer.
I'm now inclined to side with the Colonel, who I rarely understand, that ... "nothing has changed."
Tom
Eh, sounds like BS to me. Kinda like ebay raising my final value fees a couple percent, lowering insertion fees by a nickel, and proudly advertising "LOWEST FEES EVER!"
Nope - who is going to get the big consignments....the company offering 105% of hammer or the company offering 107%?
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
And some day somebody's going to figure out that the big companies are getting lower bids because their buyer's fee is so high. I think that 20% is their limit. If they go to 22.5% or 25%, they are going to see a big drop off in bids.
The Heritage political department has a 25% buyers' fee, and most of what they sell is the stuff that the smaller houses don't offer, the 3D items, like pitchers, banners, canes and coaloil lanterns. If you have political numismatic tokens and but the very best buttons, they get poor auction coverage from Heritage because the smaller houses, like Anderson and Steve Hayden with their 15% rate or no buyers' fee, are way ahead of them.
OK, everybody wants to talk math. So let's do math with an example.
Company A: 17.5% buyers fee, 105% to the seller
Company B: 20% buyers fee, 107.5% to the seller
$1,000 (final price) coin:
Co. A: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 17.5% to bid $825 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @ 105% Consignor gets $866.25.
Co. B: Buyers reduce $1,000 by 20% to bid $800 hammer to account for buyer's fee. @107.5% Consignor gets $860.
THE HOUSE WINS WITH A HIGHER BUYER'S FEE. The math is right there! Getting 107.5% of a lower hammer price is worse than 105% of a higher hammer price.
I don't know if that's necessarily true. Buyer's fees showed up in the early 1980's and then continued higher. I don't think the major auction houses were hurting for business in the bull market years of 1998-2008 despite higher buyer's fees. If anything, there were more coins going to major auction than ever before. The advent of the TPG's probably helped bring a lot more coins to auction as well.
Raising the buyer's fee is the same as raising the "potential" seller's/consignor's fees. The seller is free to negotiate them. You don't have to sit still for a 10% seller's fee and 20% buyer's fee....or 30% total in fees...equal to a net 75% of the price realized. Most 5 figure consignors work deals much better than that. Auction houses are all basically raising the rate at the same time....and following the larger art houses who will no doubt head to 27.5% to 30% in the coming years. If they can do it and survive....coin auction houses will too. While most players will adjust their bids accordingly, and most consignors will negotiate at least HALF of the fees away.....there will be those stragglers who don't such that they will be footing the brunt of the higher rates....benefiting the auction house. Had the recent owner of the $520K Proof $20 DE at a net 80% waited until next year to auction.....they'd have been paying that extra 2.5% or $10,000 (or a net 78%). Do that enough times....and it's real money. It can debated if those deals will outweigh the consignors that don't show up in the future.
Why should there be a tipping point at a 22.5-25% buyer's fee? No doubt people complained loudly with the 10%, 15%, and 17.5% buyer's fees. I'm sure tipping points were mentioned in those discussions. They never happened. And I doubt it's gonna happen at 22-25% either. The art houses are still with us. They thrive big time in bull markets and hang on in bears.....just like coin dealers....whatever the posted fees are.
I wish collectors had the cohesion to boycott a few auctions as both consignors and buyers.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Aren't you the guy who thinks that a 100% buyers' fee would be just fine? If so, these posts speak volumes. Pretty soon the auction market will be only for multimillionaires, and there won’t be any room for growing new collectors. Then we will join the stamp hobby, which for the pure collector, must be heaven these days because prices have crashed through the floor and down to the basement.
Today the biggest and best market that most stamp dealers have is for discount postage.
Now that would be interesting!
Tom
Hard to believe so many posts saying they feel relief ..they won't have to calculate a 17.5% juice bid amount.... and also joyful paying a 20 % buyers fee for Heritage
How about just buying a cheap calculator for $ 5
That would be $1250 to $2500. Sense of proportion to apply. Marginal utility of $48,750 in newly available coins at lower replacement cost levels.
Not for everyone, but I'm sure everyone with a 100% sell-through rate (no reserves) does better than most retail consignments and will pick up a point of the 2.5.
I'm starting my first day of six-month self-exile for threads on auction commissions and the market.
Since I'm already attending Tues meetings online under the sponsorship of derivatives traders, cocaine addicts and quasi-quality bean queens, about all that's left is acetone.
Pearls before swine.
Others on these threads are either transactional fools
or masochists 
.
Or maybe even the CU BST forum.
Yeah but it will never happen...... We should schedule a nationwide "Visit a B&M Day" or local coin show day to coincide with an auction.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
That would take a minor miracle.
Sounds like feld to me.
I am glad that I am dialing back to coins that can found at the major shows, even with lack of selection that now marks many shows. Buying big coins at auctions is no fun any more. It was okay when the rate was 15%. It lost luster at 17.5%. Now it's up to 20 and I can't any reason why it won't go higher given the reactions and even advocacy you see from some people here. The 25% rate will be very easy to calculate. So will 50 and 100.
In what scenario would auction houses be inclined to decrease or eliminate the BP?
I cannot think one. They are very stubborn people, the combined buying power of those here who are unhappy with this is not large enough to matter to them.
As a buyer, it's just math. As a potential consignor, it's a HUGE issue for me.
Three or four years ago, if forced to sell, I would have have contacted my friends at Heritage first. Now, they'd be 3rd on the list. My perception of their operation has gradually receded during this time while others have risen. I'd still see what kind of offer they'd make me, but from what I've heard from them previously, I'd be surprised if their offer would equal what I could get elsewhere.
Maybe my perceptions aren't entirely accurate, but perception is more important than reality in business.
This is exactly how I feel.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
20% of nothing is nothing!
I can contribute something here, because I've seen inside this in a different business.
The people who run HA know their business, and if they're raising BP, it's because they have a very good indication that it's going to be better for their bottom line. Anyone who wonders 'But if everyone protests and goes to GC or goes private or to eBay, won't they suffer a hit to their bottom line?' doesn't know the intricacies of their business. Some of it was outlined here but went a bit over my head.
Another possibility is that this change goes hand in hand with some other restructuring of which which we're unaware, either current or foreseen, that rationalizes it from a business perspective.
There is almost zero chance, in my view, that you will ever see HA come with 'We're sorry, we made a mistake, we're dropping BP back down to 17.5% and we want to thank all our loyal customers'. Ain't gonna happen.
These people know their business.
The current problem with GC is that it doesn't get the same type of consignments as the fish in the deeper end of the pond.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
What on earth would this forum discuss if not for rising buyers fees and CAC? It would be as dead as the NGC forum.
I can say that of my 49 "disagrees", they have come from either buyers fee threads, CAC threads, or rogue (now banned) ALT's who disagreed with everything, including pretty pictures of expensive coins.
Latin American Collection
The REALITY of the situation...
It is a reasonable argument that bidders may suffer no impact when rates rise like this as they can simply adjust their bids accordingly. While I believe bidders do suffer a very minor impact, it appears I am in the minority on that point. So, let's just leave it at bidders are essentially not affected by this increase.
The larger consignors to Heritage who consign items that sell (as opposed to items that fail to sell at set reserves) and quite possibly to Stacks as well although I can not say for sure as I have not consigned anything to Stacks for at least roughly a year or more at this point, it appears will also not be affected virtually at all by this change. And, for that matter, collectors who work closely with a dealer when it comes time to sell should also not be affected virtually at all by this change. I know my customers who consign through me will not be (virtually at all). I am discussing it privately with them this week so I am fairly confident in what I am saying here.
FACT - I currently get a better deal with Heritage (and I would assume Stacks as well) than I do if I chose to consign any coins with GC at their posted consignment rates. This is for coins that I am selling at auction with no reserve. For coins that I want to offer out at a reserve (and fail to sell), GC would result in a better rate I assume as I believe they charge next to nothing (or nothing) on reserved coins that fail to sell. But, my consignors (typically) want their coins to sell at Heritage and are generally comfortable selling them at no reserve (not everyone, but the majority of my customers to be sure).
In future years, anything is possible. We will have to see. Maybe by then, my son, Justin (monstercoinmart on eBay), will be ready to sell everything for me on eBay or on his website! Since DLRC took a free "plug" here, why not one for my son as well.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Transparency is what I want when dealing with a business.
If they have a better consignment rate for larger consignments, then post it on your website.
The idea that you have to know who to go to or what the special deal is to get better rates is BS.
To me it looks like they are just trying to take advantage of the uniformed, and to me that is a turn off.
If you want my business tell me openly what the rate is, otherwise I will pick a competitor or other ways to sell, even it that turns out to not be better financially. At least I feel better that I'm supporting a company or person that is more transparent. And in the long run if more people do the same that business will succeed at the expense of the other businesses.
"Transparency is what I want when dealing with a business."
I can't think of a business where every rate for every single person and company is on a company website. I am sure there is one out there, but I can't think of it right this second. I wish Doctors and hospitals had such a thing though. But I digress....
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
As noted earlier I am a frequent buyer at Heritage. Fees are not an issue as the seller absorbs all of it. Shipping fees are over the top but again it becomes a hit to the seller and not the buyer.
I have only consigned a single coin to Heritage (5 figures). It was a decade ago and looking back I got whacked a bit on the fees. Didn't understand that one could receive over hammer on a high value consignment. My fault not theirs.....but that is the last coin of mine that they have seen.
I will offer mine on the BST and let collectors decide. Maybe the full time coin dealers will become the place to shop again. I sure WISH the ANA ethics of coin dealing (3 day rule inspection) would replace the pass or play of the net world.
How about they stop all the handwaving and circle jerking , since the seller is paying the fee , spell out the friggin fee .
It's not your fault you didn't know the secret handshake. Of course its their fault , the whole idea is stupid .
I cant remember the last time a coin dealer contacted me with a coin for my collection. I know hundreds, any one else?
Car dealerships used to not be very transparent on the price you would pay for a particular car.
Now there are many dealers that post a "best price" on their website so that you compare prices and decide who you want to deal with. You know up front what the price will be and you can then just deal with a trade in and decide to take their offer or sell via other means.
"Ha.com is not transparent either. I opend a thread in the NGC forums (!) About their non transparency and housebidding which is not fair to buyers and also artificially fixes prices even when no buyers exist.
I was scolded and scoffed by Mark Feld in the forums. I don't know if that member is here, but in NGC forums this members actively is harsh on lot of people/posts.
BTW the member says "Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions"
Numiven: First, as a general rule, I welcome "housebidding" on my consignment coins and suggest to my customers that, in my opinion, they should as well. This is not the place for a full discussion on that separate subject, but if a separate thread is ever opened here, I would certainly participate in that thread. I generally do not participate on the NGC boards due to time constraints unless something I am specifically doing is mentioned over there (like a coin I am selling on eBay, etc). So, I did not participate in whatever thread you opened over there. BUT, I would be very surprised if you were "scolded and scoffed" by Mark Feld on your thread as a reply by Mark. Will Mark offer his opinion on matters (as I do here) and will those opinions, at times, be very clear in advocating one side or another of an issue? Of course, he was an attorney I believe in his younger days
But, all kidding aside, in most cases, i would listen very closely to what Mark has to say on a particular subject. He is a seasoned veteran that most of us here can learn from.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
It was my fault as I was still a bit green as far as consignments. Broke even on the transaction and was damn lucky to do so. I find that it is best to control the sale of one's coins. Tough to do that with major auction houses.