Questionable Blue Toning on Raw Coins - what do you think?
Walkerguy21D
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Hoping this leads to insightful discussion later
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Questionable Blue Toning on Raw Coins - what do you think?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
1
Comments
When you say questionable blue toning what are you meaning precisely? And any particular shade? Or just blues in general?
For blues in general, I suppose I’d be in the “some are, some aren’t” camp.
I’ve seen cyan/blue toning (very light) on GSA morgans that is unquestionably original. I’ve also seen blue on bullion coins.
I’ve also seen dark blue and highlighter blue that looked totally fake.
Sorry - I meant on the coins I posted - and I had trouble editing it to add the photos until I posted the poll, so you probably didn't see the coins.
Lol, I wondered if there was more to the story. Quick draw here!
They look naturally toned to me. Why do some people think blue is questionable over other colors?
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There is some blue in this dime I own.
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I've seen this type of toning on PCGS and NGC slabbed coins. There may be ways to do this artificially (quickly) but I wouldn't know the difference.
I am not a fan of the 1921 Peace Dollar. The rest look to be okay with album toning.
I know "blue" is not my favorite color. Any colors with the neon effect give me pause.
Here's one where one side is more toned. How was the coin situated during storage to create this effect?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Sorry, didn't realize the question pertained only to the coins in the photo. I could believe all of those are NT, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Depends on what you call natural toning. All look dipped and holder influenced to me which is generally acceptable.
It’s a cool group of raw coins though
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
It's very easy to create even cobalt blue rim toning on silver coinage. I generally avoid it. If I have a question, I'll ask someone who knows more than I do about a coin. That said, sometimes the best even make mistakes.
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In many cases , it's really not blue toning your seeing but rather the original bright lustrous surfaces shining through the thinning of the toning that hasn't reached the very edge of the coin. I've made this revelation with several of my coins.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thanks so far, guys.
From Elcontador -
It's very easy to create even cobalt blue rim toning on silver coinage.
this is what I want to discuss later on. I want to understand better how to id it.
The half dime would maybe get a QC. The others look market acceptable, from the photos. This type of type of secondary rim toning is pretty common.
Don't try to determine "natural" vs "artificial". There's enough threads on here already that are 20 pages long with no consensus. Everyone has their own opinion. Either the coin gets into a TPG holder or not. Gets a bean or not. Anything else is personal preference and purely up to the individual collector.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
If you're speaking about the coins you have pictured I think all are NT.
In 50 years + coin collecting and coin selling, I have had many toned coins. Some which were of this color, especially bust halves and Liberty Seated Halves, I had in the late 70's and early 80's and never had a problem with them. Now I'm to understand their is a diversity of opinion as to their being manipulated or not. Most of my coins were purchased from dealers along I-81 in Tennessee and Virginia. I bought, sold, and traded with these dealers for 20 years and this question never came up. If interested in these coins Greg presented, I would have bought them at that time. Now as raw is for collectiing only and not for resale, I would probably not.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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It’s the purple you have to watch out for more than the blue. The blues like on those coins occur naturally too much to assume that blue means AT. But it’s not impossible to AT them similarly. But it’s the purples that are often the giveaway that a coin was ATd quickly
Mr_Spud
You guys are good!
All of those coins developed that blue toning during long term storage in Dansco albums. All but the '21 Peace dollar were in the 7070; it was in the Dansco Peace Dollar album - since moved to the 7070 after breaking up that set earlier this year.
So on to my bigger question - how can you distinguish 'freshly made' cobalt blue toning, from long term album storage toning? The '39O half dollar thread got me thinking about this, but I knew it was out there.
A few months ago one of the regular dealers at the local show had a stack of ~40 Morgan dollars, in XF/AU with sort of a cleany look to them, but each one had a nearly perfect concentric ring of electric blue tone on them. We're on good terms, so I joked about someone's been to the doctor, lol, and he laughed also, but added that he didn't do it, he bought them that way, and was not charging a premium for the toning. He also added that he'd had a lot more, but dealers had already bought a bunch from him. And an hour later most of what I saw had subsequently been sold.
In this case, as that many fairly recently cleaned coins with identical blue toning rings looking like they were stamped out with a machine was pretty obvious. But if was just a couple coins, or different types, interspersed with many other normal coins, would have been less so.
Most are fine and the others look to be secondary toning.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
@Walkerguy21D "you guys are good!" Only 4 people guessed that they were all NT out of the 20 guesses.
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I think there's a degree of AT "phobia" present here.
The seated Liberty gave me pause until I read your latest comment. And because it reminded me of a coin I purchased a couple years ago that was labeled AT.
So this is acceptable or natural toning.
We’re the dealers coins a different shade of blue or somehow just unnatural looking?
Edit; Concentric yea had to look it up
The small ANACS holders were noted for turning silver coins blue, especially around the rims. The coins pictured could get graded either way, depending on the graders, that's why I picked the "some" option.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
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Nice group of raw coins.
Yes, but the comments indicated that most guessing “some” were only on the fence about one coin….after some recent threads about AT blue rim toning, I was expecting many of them to get slaughtered.
@Walkerguy21D Yes there are many people that scream AT all day long. Usually its easy to see the difference. Not always thou. I'm still wondering why blue seems to be a big concern?
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My understanding is that if the toning goes across lettering and devices it was rapidly acquired and could be AT, if the toning on the rim for example, does not cover the high points like stars and lettering, it took a long time to acquire and likely NT. But that should be verified by the true experts here.
Best, SH
Looks like a mix to me..... None appeal to me...The Peace would be nice with a judicious dip. Cheers, RickO
Well you certainly are consistent, Mr. RickO! I’m sure you would have liked the Peace Dollar when I first acquired it many years ago.
One of my favorites.
How does this work? I buy what I like for my personal collection. I follow pretty strict rules for the inheritance collection. Yes I keep them separate as I am willing to chance it a little with my personal collection.
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@Jzyskowski1 I like it! Did you find it in a proof set and already blue?
Bought it slabbed off of eBay. Details label👿
eBay. It changes as its tilted Details unfortunately 👿
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AT or NT, I would like that Seated and Barber half in my Dansco 7070 album.
Collector, occasional seller
Here's a pretty blue one-
It’s that purple in the dime that @Jzyskowski1 posted that makes it suspicious. That and the way the color goes uninterrupted right up and over the raised letters and portrait suggests the toning happened quickly.
And here’s my old picture showing the progression of colors a coin goes through as it is being AT’d by heat from when I used to make educational AT vs NT displays for the Charlotte Coin Club about 15 years ago. It’s the same coin with a picture taken every few seconds as it goes through the AT process. Notice that the blue ones all have at least a hint of that funny purple in them?
And here’s what really fast AT blue rim toning looks like. Notice that it’s more of a slightly purplish blue rather than a true blue
And notice that all these AT coins show at least some of that suspicious purple
Mr_Spud
Thanks that’s the best explanation I have heard. Just amazing how this happens. I will book mark this.
Thanks Mr.Spud😉
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I’ll share something that comforts me. Our beloved RickO is well known for his views on tarnish. After considerable thought I realized that AT or NT it doesn’t matter. It’s all tarnish ( just a fact about silver) and dang it if it boiled down to buy what you like. Some will dip some won’t like tarnish. Others will argue NT vs. AT but in the end. Buy what you like
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FYI - 15 years later - here’s one of my AT displays I made about 15 years ago that I keep at work in my office. I kept this one because it was a part of an educational AT vs NT display I made for a coin art exhibit that Jamie Frankie did after he designed the bison nickels that I AT’d as part of the display. He was a member of our coin club and was there at the first meeting that I presented the AT vs NT at. He liked it so much he asked to display a similar one at his coin art show so I made this display. The nickels still look the same as when I first made it.
Mr_Spud
The art of chemicals.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
As far as determining natural vs. AT, I like to see toning "pull away" as shown in the coins below. The 1892 quarter has it around the reverse lettering. The 1911 has it very faintly around obverse stars and date, and the 1907-s half has it boldly apparent under the date. Pull away is elusive though, because it is not always present, even in perfectly naturally toned coins. However, when you do have pull away, I'd say it does indicate a naturally toned coin fairly conclusively. Interested in the opinions here, about "pull away"
Yes, pull away suggests that the toning happened slowly over a long period of time as opposed to the AT ones I showed where the color goes right up and over the raised letters and numbers uninterrupted. It’s like the metal deformity that occurs around raised devices is enough to prevent slow toning to develop but fast AT doesn’t care.
Mr_Spud
But, speaking of blue peripheral toning, here’s a picture of a couple of Colombian half dollars that I bought many years ago that fooled me.
I bought them in a small shop in Georgia and thought they had been stored in an album. I liked how they looked so much the same and thought they were legit album toning.
I submitted one years later to PCGS and it came back as questionable color and now I think coins with this look are AT. What do you think are the “tells” that suggest AT. I think I know, but would like to hear what others think they are, thanks.
Mr_Spud
Heres a blue one thats certified. Not in a questionable toning or details holder. It wasn't this blue when I got it. I think the holder did the toning. @Jzyskowski1 it looks similar to your except its blue not purple.
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That one is puzzling, maybe it’s because there is so much contrast.
For the edges to have that much toning while the center is still blast white.
@erwindoc has this really gorgeous blue Roosevelt in his registry set that is graded NGC MS67*. I am super jealous, I wish it was mine!
That's a beauty!
**But, speaking of blue peripheral toning, here’s a picture of a couple of Colombian half dollars that I bought many years ago that fooled me.
I bought them in a small shop in Georgia and thought they had been stored in an album. I liked how they looked so much the same and thought they were legit album toning.
I submitted one years later to PCGS and it came back as questionable color and now I think coins with this look are AT. What do you think are the “tells” that suggest AT. I think I know, but would like to hear what others think they are, thanks.
**
Neat examples. I agree with @CoinscratchFever that the contrast is worrisome.
The obverse toning is almost too broad and uniform in color, lacking the bands of color I think you'd more likely see if developed slowly and naturally. And traces of the 'purple' that @Mr_Spud has warned us about.
PS - Mr_Spud - thank you for all of your contributions to this thread - very informative!
Just like with cleaning. Sometimes it isn’t what they look like it is what they don’t look like. Those look like they were over dipped and then stored and reacted. Yes the storage was natural but the hyper reactive state of the silver from the over dipping ( skins shield the silver) that PCGS dinged. They could have just as easily said cleaning
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
What would be fishy would be toning designed to cover up flaws, one reason many current collectors look for flashy untoned coins.