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****OFFICIAL 2021 Morgan and Peace Silver Dollar thread*****

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  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Amazing. Simply amazing. Auctions for a coin that no one has!

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MilesWaits said:
    Amazing. Simply amazing. Auctions for a coin that no one has!

    Meh...if you charge it you are also paying with money you don't have...

  • jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MilesWaits said:
    Amazing. Simply amazing. Auctions for a coin that no one has!

    Just doing what the mint is doing this time... selling coins they don't have.... lol

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2021 11:59AM

    Looking for updates on the rest of these like

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • dmwestdmwest Posts: 959 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2021 8:47PM

    From a US Mint email tonight:

    The pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars are as follows:
    Morgan Dollars – SF and D (21XF, 21XG) order window is now 8/3 - 8/17
    Morgan Dollar Philly and Peace Dollar (21XE, 21XH) order window is now 8/10 - 8/24

    The updated HHOL are as follows:

    Morgan Dollar (SF) – 21XF, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar (D) – 21XG, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar Philly – 21XE, HHOL = 3
    Peace Dollar – 21XH, HHOL = 3

    Don't quote me on that.

  • cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,830 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That shouldn’t affect past orders.

    Many happy BST transactions
  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the update @dmwest So August 3'rd and August 10'th are the new target dates. Both fall on Tuesdays. Even with that HHL of 3 it's going to be another website explosion. Especially on August 10'th...that Peace Dollar is going to derail everything. Good luck to everyone here who wants one of each.

  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So, are they going to sell any of the remaining Morgan’s, cc/o?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jessewvu said:
    So, are they going to sell any of the remaining Morgan’s, cc/o?

    I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was "no". We're past the order window.

    On the other hand, they haven't flipped to sold out.

    It might depend on whether there are any cancelations after they Mint them.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,096 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Precious Metal Products 21XC MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR CC PRIVY MARK 173,814 6/20/2021
    Precious Metal Products 21XD MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR O PRIVY MARK 173,733 6/20/2021

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dmwest said:
    From a US Mint email tonight:

    The pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars are as follows:
    Morgan Dollars – SF and D (21XF, 21XG) order window is now 8/3 - 8/17
    Morgan Dollar Philly and Peace Dollar (21XE, 21XH) order window is now 8/10 - 8/24

    The updated HHOL are as follows:

    Morgan Dollar (SF) – 21XF, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar (D) – 21XG, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar Philly – 21XE, HHOL = 3
    Peace Dollar – 21XH, HHOL = 3

    Isn't this just going to make the website issue worse? Three times as many shoppers?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @dmwest said:
    From a US Mint email tonight:

    The pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars are as follows:
    Morgan Dollars – SF and D (21XF, 21XG) order window is now 8/3 - 8/17
    Morgan Dollar Philly and Peace Dollar (21XE, 21XH) order window is now 8/10 - 8/24

    The updated HHOL are as follows:

    Morgan Dollar (SF) – 21XF, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar (D) – 21XG, HHOL = 3
    Morgan Dollar Philly – 21XE, HHOL = 3
    Peace Dollar – 21XH, HHOL = 3

    Isn't this just going to make the website issue worse? Three times as many shopperno

    It's probably the same amount of shoppers. Where would the extra come from?

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 5:35AM

    If they keep the limit to 3 and find a way to bust the bots the crowd should thin out to make it easier past day one but this is just my genius opinion 🤪 ( yes that is my photo )

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    If they keep the limit to 3 and find a way to bust the bots the crowd should thin out to make it easier past day one but this is just my genius opinion 🤪 ( yes that is my photo )

    There won't be any significant number past day one. You are going to have more flippers than ever because posted bids are going to be higher.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2021 12:32PM

    Would this work ? Bots can place an order from start to finish in less than a second that is how their code is written. How about the mint pauses all transaction between stages. Place it in your cart pause random number of seconds go to check out different random number of seconds ( I’m talking 4 or 5 seconds) payment method pause. While you’re paused someone else is adding to cart. No orders are placed in seconds. How does a bot keep up with that ?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Would this work ? Bots can place an order from start to finish in less than a second that is how their code is written. How about the mint pauses all transaction between stages. Place it in your cart pause random number of seconds go to check out different random number of seconds ( I’m talking 4 or 5 seconds) payment method pause. While you’re paused someone else is adding to cart. No orders are placed in seconds. How does a bot keep up with that ?

    You've slowed everyone down. The bots are still faster at every step. So, the bots still win.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bots wait like everyone else micro speed doesn’t help.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    You've slowed everyone down.

    Not enough. The mint needs to make everybody connect via dialup on AOL with a 2400 baud modem.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Bots wait like everyone else micro speed doesn’t help.

    Yes, it does. When you get to step 2, they complete it faster than you. They are always milliseconds ahead of you at every step, including the final one.

    While you might think your random delay helps, it really doesn't as the aggregate average is the same for everyone, bots or human. And the bots finish every step milliseconds ahead of the human.

    What you are trying to do is have a lottery without having a lottery.

  • jerseyralphjerseyralph Posts: 123 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    Would this work ? Bots can place an order from start to finish in less than a second that is how their code is written. How about the mint pauses all transaction between stages. Place it in your cart pause random number of seconds go to check out different random number of seconds ( I’m talking 4 or 5 seconds) payment method pause. While you’re paused someone else is adding to cart. No orders are placed in seconds. How does a bot keep up with that ?

    You've slowed everyone down. The bots are still faster at every step. So, the bots still win.

    What if the server determines the time difference between keystrokes or the time between sequencing through various stages of the transaction. Anything less than a half a second gets thrown out and must start over.

    Only time will tell whether platinum is king.
  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Basically my idea is right you have to stop orders being placed at bot speed.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If bots are unfair because they give people an advantage over those not using them, wouldn't it also be unfair for people to use a high speed internet connection because it gives them an advantage over those who don't have one?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerseyralph said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    Would this work ? Bots can place an order from start to finish in less than a second that is how their code is written. How about the mint pauses all transaction between stages. Place it in your cart pause random number of seconds go to check out different random number of seconds ( I’m talking 4 or 5 seconds) payment method pause. While you’re paused someone else is adding to cart. No orders are placed in seconds. How does a bot keep up with that ?

    You've slowed everyone down. The bots are still faster at every step. So, the bots still win.

    What if the server determines the time difference between keystrokes or the time between sequencing through various stages of the transaction. Anything less than a half a second gets thrown out and must start

    the over.

    That is probably how some of the anti-bot technology works. But remember, you can also program the bot to have a random delay.

    Since Amazon and Walmart haven't defeated the bots, I'm pretty sure we aren't going to solve the problem here.

    I would also remind you about the release of the ASEs where many of us were put in detention for refreshing too quickly. A bot can look like a human, but a human can also look like a bot.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:
    Basically my idea is right you have to stop orders being placed at bot speed.

    The bot can adjust it's speed. There is a constant battle between the anti-bot programmers and the bot programmers. I'm pretty sure you're not going to think of something they haven't.

  • djmdjm Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    If bots are unfair because they give people an advantage over those not using them, wouldn't it also be unfair for people to use a high speed internet connection because it gives them an advantage over those who don't have one?

    Actually No.. If you use a metered connection you can get right through the process. Another trick is to have your computer registered with CAPTCHA so you don't have to do the challenge.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    Basically my idea is right you have to stop orders being placed at bot speed.

    The bot can adjust it's speed. There is a constant battle between the anti-bot programmers and the bot programmers. I'm pretty sure you're not going to think of something they haven't.

    I’ve always said I’ve never had an original thought. I would have to do something like figure out how to travel faster than light or something like that, all other thoughts have already been thought so I agree with you.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JimTyler said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @JimTyler said:
    Basically my idea is right you have to stop orders being placed at bot speed.

    The bot can adjust it's speed. There is a constant battle between the anti-bot programmers and the bot programmers. I'm pretty sure you're not going to think of something they haven't.

    I’ve always said I’ve never had an original thought. I would have to do something like figure out how to travel faster than light or something like that, all other thoughts have already been thought so I agree with you.

    LOL. I don't mean it as an insult. These things are very sophisticated and they are designed to defeat anti-bot technologies. As soon as some cyber security expert comes up with a new anti-bot technology, the bot developers find a way to defeat it. They use AI to defeat things like CAPTCHA. Some of them use actual humans to defeat CAPTCHA, but that has to be slow.

    You also have to remember that they can spoof IP addresses and launch hundreds of attempts. So if they launch a trial attack and the system blocks them, they can launch a second attack at a slower speed from a different IP address to fool it. They can adjust their attacks in milliseconds.

    I'm also not so sure that people aren't attributing too much of the problem to bots. There's also a lot of just plain humans in buyers clubs that are logged in and trying to get these because there is a higher market price.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    If bots are unfair because they give people an advantage over those not using them, wouldn't it also be unfair for people to use a high speed internet connection because it gives them an advantage over those who don't have one?

    Actually, remember the release when we were all getting blocked for "speeding" because we were refreshing too quickly? I look forward to being blocked by the anti-bot technology.

  • JimTylerJimTyler Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe they should go old school, back to mail order. Take computers, computer speed, bots out of the loop. They could get more than one address but we all could do that if we wanted. I have no desire to get or use a bot. Unless of course it’s.......Robbie

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,958 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    There's also a lot of just plain humans in buyers clubs that are logged in and trying to get these because there is a higher market price.

    Exactly what I was thinking. The big question, how long until the UNAVAILABLE sign goes up? 20 minutes? Less than 10?
    The early morning Forum Klatsch will be up & running!

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @djm said:
    Another trick is to have your computer registered with CAPTCHA so you don't have to do the challenge.

    So that's an advantage over those who don't have their computers registered? Isn't that unfair?

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It doesn’t seem that anyone is using anything that isn’t available to everyone. You can buy a bot and run it, you can start a buyers club, you can enlist family and friends. It’s all fair game.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @djm said:
    Another trick is to have your computer registered with CAPTCHA so you don't have to do the challenge.

    So that's an advantage over those who don't have their computers registered? Isn't that unfair?

    @3stars said:
    It doesn’t seem that anyone is using anything that isn’t available to everyone. You can buy a bot and run it, you can start a buyers club, you can enlist family and friends. It’s all fair game.

    But... but... but... the flippers.... the bots... the buyers' clubs... the dealers....

    What about the TRUE collectors who never want to sell their coins or make money?

  • daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @djm said:

    @MasonG said:
    If bots are unfair because they give people an advantage over those not using them, wouldn't it also be unfair for people to use a high speed internet connection because it gives them an advantage over those who don't have one?

    Actually No.. If you use a metered connection you can get right through the process. Another trick is to have your computer registered with CAPTCHA so you don't have to do the challenge.

    Not to get off topic, but how does one do that?

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Collecting can be cut throat, it just depends on how badly you want something. Use all of the tools available.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • RichRRichR Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2021 11:50AM

    As a 40+ year Mint customer, I just want a "fair" shot to at least get 1 of every issue.

    Is that really asking too much for an aging out/dying out (depending on who you ask) hobby?

    So how about this...accept mail order weeks in advance of the online sales and reduce the HHL for those if oversubscribed, and then sell the remainder on line. This would obviously require more staff to process those orders...but it would attempt to achieve "balance".

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichR said:
    As a 40+ year Mint customer, I just want a "fair" shot to at least get 1 of every issue.

    Is that really asking too much for an aging out/dying out (depending on who you ask) hobby?

    So how about this...accept mail order weeks in advance of the online sales and reduce the HHL for those if oversubscribed, and then sell the remainder on line. This would obviously require more staff to process those orders...but it would attempt to achieve "balance".

    You have a "fair" shot. You have the same shot as everyone else. When there are 250,000 mint customers and the mintage is less than that, someone is going to get left out.

    Mail order is ridiculous. You think a buyers club can't submit mail orders. You're making it harder for everyone and solving almost nothing.

  • RichRRichR Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2021 12:17PM

    [Mail order is ridiculous. You think a buyers club can't submit mail orders. You're making it harder for everyone and solving almost nothing.]

    Except for one minor thing...the Mint took mail orders for decades...and it was extremely rare to get completely frozen out of a new issue...because nothing shipped until all orders were balanced with the available supply.

    And this was all done manually...and wait for it...you had to wait patiently for your order to be processed and delivered...for weeks or months.

    I know...I was there!

    And PS...I always find it odd that a government agency like the Mint...which has virtually no real profit motive...and by all accounts is not actually turning much of a profit in any case...so time is not a factor...is now treating their coins like Super Bowl or hot concert tickets? To the Mint, taking order and getting these out the door in an hour, a week, a month, or a year is meaningless to their bottom line. And "fairness" absolutely needs to be a driving factor to maintain a healthy hobby.

  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s referred to as a Dutch Auction.
    The United States Treasury sells its securities Weekly by a Dutch Auction process.

    Example:
    Let's say you are preparing to sell 300,000 Type 2 American Silver Eagles Proofs.
    You take Bids for 300,000 Type 2 American Silver Eagles and the United States Mint uses the Highest bids for 300,000 coins, however, EVERY bid or price paid is Exactly the SAME price.
    It’s Not the Highest or the Lowest, it is the Average price for the Highest 300,000 bids.

    No need for HHL. IF you want 10 coins you put in 10 bids at the same price or various prices. IF the Big Boys want 1,000 coins then put in 1,000 bids.

    Win/Win

    The United States Mint gets Million$ more in Revenue because prices will be Higher than the announced price and IF you (collector/investor/flipper/dealer/Big Boy) are willing to put your money where your mouth is, you WILL get a coin…

  • RichRRichR Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2021 12:20PM

    Option B: Tell me again...for an agency without a true corporate profit motive...what exactly is the downside to producing EVERYTHING to demand...and then melting down the remainder(s) at year's end???

  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By Federal Law...relating to the Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars...

    "The Secretary of the Treasury shall take such actions as may be necessary to ensure that the minting and issuing of coins under the Act will not result in any net cost to the United States Government."

  • TomthemailcarrierTomthemailcarrier Posts: 641 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Kennedy Collector set issued in 1998 is a good model. It featured a matte proof 1998 s Kennedy half and a commemorative coin honoring Robert Kennedy. Actual mintage was 62,000 coins. There was a 6 week mail ordering window with orders determining mintage. An upper limit of 500,000 coins was also in place. They carry a decent premium over issue price.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichR said:
    Option B: Tell me again...for an agency without a true corporate profit motive...what exactly is the downside to producing EVERYTHING to demand...and then melting down the remainder(s) at year's end???

    Everybody who wants one gets one, prices fall on the secondary market, purchasers become discouraged because they lose money on their mint purchases if they decide to sell. And then, they complain about the mint.

    See "1971 proof sets" for what happens when you make enough for everybody who wants one to get one. Hint: Issue price was $5. 50 years later, they are selling on eBay for as low as $5.25. Using an inflation calculator, $5 in 1971 equals nearly $34 today.

    Bottom Line: Everybody does not want the same thing. What some people want and what other people want are mutually exclusive. No matter what the mint does, there will be complaints. Everybody has a plan to make things more fair, and they pretty much all boil down to "Make it easier for me to get stuff." The other guy? Well, too bad for him.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,696 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2021 1:11PM

    @RichR said:
    As a 40+ year Mint customer, I just want a "fair" shot to at least get 1 of every issue.

    Is that really asking too much for an aging out/dying out (depending on who you ask) hobby?

    So how about this...accept mail order weeks in advance of the online sales and reduce the HHL for those if oversubscribed, and then sell the remainder on line. This would obviously require more staff to process those orders...but it would attempt to achieve "balance".

    If the hobby were aging/dying out, this conversation wouldn't be necessary and there'd be plenty to go around. High demand is a good thing for the hobby and generates more excitement than frustration. Just look at the post count in this one thread.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichR said:
    Option B: Tell me again...for an agency without a true corporate profit motive...what exactly is the downside to producing EVERYTHING to demand...and then melting down the remainder(s) at year's end???

    No one will buy them. With unlimited mintages, every issue drops in value on the secondary market and people stop buying.

    The illusion or rarity creates demand.

  • ACopACop Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MilesWaits said:
    Amazing. Simply amazing. Auctions for a coin that no one has!

    Meh...if you charge it you are also paying with money you don't have...

    The credit card companies dont have the money either

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And mint to order may drop secondary market values and snuff out the flippers. Oh, well, just too d--- bad then. Actually the market will correct as will the order patterns and numbers. Many examples could be cited, but could pick out the Jackie Robinson gold unc. amongst MANY others.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You can’t snuff out individuals with good business sense (call them flippers if it suits your narrative). You may harm the less savvy/educated but where there is a will, there is a way.

    I think the difference between a flipper and a dealer is knowing how to navigate in all scenarios the mint throws at us.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2021 5:34AM

    If they went to HHL 3 that is reason to believe they can handle demand moving forward. Otherwise they would have HHL 1.

    Unfortunately they may have miscalculated again. The ebay premiums are through the roof.

    I think we may be looking at minutes to sellout in August again. Even with some sort of bot mitigation.

This discussion has been closed.